Let's kick a dead horse

[Bak Mei]

This is not a troll, but a question:

Is it the man or the style? I say it is both, because it is the man that picks the style.

The man is important, he needs the discipline and mental toughness to train. BUT, at the same time he needs to be flexible and open to potential answers to questions that arise from his training.

TOO often, and I'll use Wing Chun because its an easy target, someone chooses A style and that's it, they are unbeatable. This first style they picked out of the Yellow Pages is the be all and end all of MA. No need to look further, bong sau will save the day.

I disagree. I truly believe there are better methods, better styles and way. Now, a better way in the hands of a lessor man does not accomplish much. But take that die hard Hung Gar guy, Wing Chun Guy, S. Mantis guy pounding away at Iron Palm, and show him some inner Ba Gua, and watch the hell out -- that guy is going to tear it up. He can still be a S. Mantis guy, but it will be super charged with higher level principles.

This is my opinion, but I am so sure of it I would give it the FACT stamp of aproval.

I find people limit themselves by being afraid to admit that perhaps they did not get it all from one style. Not even the style, let's say the school, the teacher.

I myself have studied Isshin-Ryu for 14 years. I used to laught at people to bounced from a school after 2 years, and rightfully, MA is a lifetime. But I got the core of that stystem, and then moved on in life (literarly, moved, and started college). Then I did Hung Gar and WIng Chun. The HUng Gar had a good lineage (from Frank Yee) but too much form not enough fight. WC was good to learn sticking, and some core principles, but the weight distribution was off. I didn;t know that until I started fighting with S Mantis, then training with my S. Mantis Sifu, a disciple of Uncle Milton.

I learned true fighting from him. Was getting good. Then I got a beat down from a so-so student of Master Chan Bong. The technoogy was higher than anything I had seen before. So little done, so much result. I pursued an introduction for a year -- got it last Feb. My gung-fu has never been better and growing by the day.

I am hungry, so maybe people will say it is me when I win, but I think it is the methods that I have learned along the way. It is me who has mastered them from hard work, but it is the methods -- I just put thgem to use; they are second nature and becoming first nature now.

Without question, Master Chan Bong's E-chuan is the best. most direct and real methods I have ever seen. Not saying he is the best, because I haven't seen it all. BUt I have stopped looking. I will spend the rest of my life with this master.

I believe he is a great man. He knows an amazing method. It is both, the method and the man. Put his method into a lesser man, and if its fully realized, he will not be lesser anymore, but it will take a man of a different color to grasp it though.

I guess its the yin and yang not to be hoaky.

Peace
Happy New Year

[red5angel]

I think it is the man. Why? Well, for a few reasons, sometimes, just being tough enough is all you need, and the best martial arts person in the world would get beat up, but beyond that genetic propensity for taking large amounts of damage and still giggle like a school girl, th eperson has to commit himself, to his art and to himself. You have to want to learn and to drive yourself, stay focused and know what you are getting into. Most arts by now, especially more traditional ones, have been tested and they work. They are systems designed to all do the same thing in different ways. If the man finds the system that is right for him, and he dedicates himself to it, and works hard, he will probably be at th etop of the heap.

[shaolinboxer]

But is it the mind of the man, or the body?

Where do techniques lie? In the body or the mind?

[DelicateSound]

It is a combination

A bad style can be "made" good by certain individuals

A good style can be misrepresented by some

A good man can pick a bad style and be nothing

A poor man can pick a good style and use it effectively to win

Sorry to be so abstract, that's just the way I see it. In the end, the most important person is your teacher. He makes you what you are.

[Bak Mei]

Guohuen, that is without a doubt the best thing I have read on this sight! 100%.

You must be very good.

Nice meeting you.

Ray

[Ford Prefect]

... S. Mantis guy pounding away at Iron Palm, and show him some inner Ba Gua, and watch the hell out -- that guy is going to tear it up. He can still be a S. Mantis guy, but it will be super charged with higher level principles.


I believe this is what cross training should be about. You don't have to jump from style to style and patch things together. You can find a style that speaks to you, and when the time comes, you can learn other methods to fill in the gaps and make yourself more efficient.

Anyway, to answer you question, it is definately a combination of the two. I know everybody hates the NHB comparisons, but would Royce Gracie have done so well in the UFC is his family studied Chung Moo Do or even kickboxing? I doubt it.

[DelicateSound]

Royce Gracie can bite my ass.

Ralek has made me hate him eternally.

[Bak Mei]

Funny

[shaolinboxer]

Man chooses style. Style shapes man. Man transcends to formlessness.

So as we approach formlessness, does man replace style?

Does formlessness really have no boundary? Or is he bound by a set of universal principals that in the abstract cover all possibilities? Bound by the boundless?

[Shaolindynasty]

I think people tend to overcomplicate the "style". I mean all styles were created by somebody right? Usually styles are born out of a person combining what he has learned and experienced over his life. Now a question to the hard core "traditionalists" Why couldn't some one do this today? Most will answer with "We don't have the experience they did" . They may be partially right but the "style" should change and evolve with the times, this doesn't mean the combat methods change a punch is a punch right?. What it means is that it needs to fit the needs of the times or the training is pointless. Kind of like the changin of jitsu arts to Budo.

With that being said, the "masters of old" were probally to concerened with staying alive to worry about where the techniques came from. If it worked for them they probally used it. I think if the school is combat emphasised they will have a similar attitude. You shouldn't try to adapt everything, you should choose carfully and only use the essential.

I think the man is most important cause once you eliminate all the "deffintitions" and catagories, man is all thats left. Man made the styles, and man made the catagories.

[Bak Mei]

True, true; but a punch is not a punch. There are ways. Most would not recognize the way that my master's e-chuan attacks. Looks wierd done outside of context as just a punch. Put it into the system when in combat, when working off of an aponant, man it works.

It looks like a wave (taiji opening up down). Very powerful without having to put power in, the mere mass of the arm driven by the wave momentum of the body is devestating, hot a nice spot, and doubly, no triply so. Not words, I know.

So, that get's me back to methods. To me its a revolving circle, man and method. Style is one's own interpretation of the methods. I can trane in my master's "style", but we will not have the same style, he is he and I am me. But I wish I had his style, smooth like butter.

[DelicateSound]

Originally posted by shaolinboxer
Man chooses style. Style shapes man. Man transcends to formlessness.

So as we approach formlessness, does man replace style?

Does formlessness really have no boundary? Or is he bound by a set of universal principals that in the abstract cover all possibilities? Bound by the boundless?

Oh Jesus F*cking Christ! :confused:

Why do people take this attitude. The only way you will reach "enlightenment" is if you practise for 11 hrs a day. Or if you are Ralek, then you just need to play Tekken for 7 hrs a day. :rolleyes:

In the end, a style is just a name. Every move is just a move. You never EVER do something the same as your Sifu. So you essentially create your own style. So everyone has their own personal style.

Abstract. Formlessness. Boundless. Anus. :p

[Shaolindynasty]

Bak Mei- Their are differences in method. Let me give you an example of what I mean. Bagua(example people no offence to bagua) guy see a man practicing a martial art in the park they talk for awhile and decide to have a freindly sparring match. The bagua guy is doing good until.....bam he gets hit with some spectacualr technique. Afterwards he complements his opponent on the technique and the man offers to teach it to him. The Bagua man thinks how useful that technique could be and is excited but...........it's not Bagua so he refuses the offer to learn it.

I just made that story up but I noticed alot of martial artists think like this. People who want to be effective in combat see techniques in 2 ways useful or not. If you restrict yourself to one line or "style" that could be a mistake. Traditional for being traditional is useless, the masters "traditionalists" hold is such high reguards would have taken the man up on the opportuntity to learn the useful technique.

delicate sounds words fit here-"In the end, a style is just a name. Every move is just a move. "

So that would leave the importance up to the man right?

[DelicateSound]

I suppose that was my point Shaolin Dynasty.

Thank you for picking through the faeces of my post and retrieving it for me :)

[Bak Mei]

Shaolin Dynasty, I agree with you 100% with no buts added.

Every Ba Gua player I know, and martial artists that I consider friends, would in a heart beat praise the person that beat them, and ask for guidence, in what that it was that beat them. It usually doesn't come down to a technique at that level, but the aproach, what was it ... ?

I am fortunate that my teacher takes the same aproach. Whatever get's you home in one peace, that's what I consider traditional.

Most "traditional" guys would look at what I do in combat and think it is Navy Seal stuff, very intight, a strong, shor structure, the arms will look like they are pumping once or twice, maybe a twist of the shape here or there and that's it -- over.

But if they saw me walking the circle, O, then they would be interested. Martial Artists are funny, aren't they?

Nice meeting you guys. Some great conversation on the board today. Happy New Year.

[Spark]

Where can one find information on the style you are currently studying??

[DelicateSound]

That is the kind of attitude everyone should strive for.

[Shaolindynasty]

Ok everyone agrees.............what the:confused: Did we just beat the forum? Whats going to happen now, I'm scared:(

[DelicateSound]

OH MY GOD. We all agreed!!!!!!!!


Quick - Ralek, say something stupid. Bullsh!t, lies, idiocy ANYTHING!!!!!!

QUICKLY :confused: :eek: :confused: :eek: :confused: :eek:

[Archangel]

It's both that matter, different degrees for every indivuduals but hey we're all different. For someone to take an extreme view that style doesn't matter AT ALL, is just as silly as the Gracies 10 years ago saying that "style is everything".

[Daredevil]

Nothing to add but agreement overall, but there's lots of ways to argue about this subject. I mean, in almost every case, it's a different scenario. Everybody knows different things and different things, -- be they styles, men or situations -- can potentially teach you more.

Bak Mei wrote:
"True, true; but a punch is not a punch. There are ways. Most would not recognize the way that my master's e-chuan attacks. Looks wierd done outside of context as just a punch. Put it into the system when in combat, when working off of an aponant, man it works.

It looks like a wave (taiji opening up down). Very powerful without having to put power in, the mere mass of the arm driven by the wave momentum of the body is devestating, hot a nice spot, and doubly, no triply so."

Yiquan looks strange, that's for sure. But then, I've seen high level taiji that looks pretty much exactly like it. Both forms and applications. Makes you wonder.

Hey Bak Mei, I find it odd that you don't hang out at the Internal Arts board. What's up with that?

[Bak Mei]

I looked for it the other day but didn't see the option. I'll go look again. I'd probably be better excepted there. The wing chun guys here want my head already -- ha, hahahaha. ha ha.

[Daredevil]

Yeah, it's "Taijiquan and Internal Arts" or some-like that so many mistake it for just a Taiji board, but it gets as much traffic by other IMA guys.

And that board seems to have less trolls too. Maybe because they don't understand what the **** we're talking about. Kidding, and I hope I didn't jinx it. :)

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

i'm glad that you guys have made me aware of the vast amounts of bullsh!t and politics that cloud traditional martial arts.

otherwise i may have taken my sifu for granted.

he's a kung fu man at heart, but incoporates whatever works into our system. he's very down to earth and takes a very straight forward approach to both fighting and the other aspects of our kung fu. it's all about figuring out what works best for you.

[rubthebuddha]

we don't want your head, we just wanna fak sau you in the neck a few times, that's all. ;)

[guohuen]

Hey Ray, thanks. Nice to meet you too. I don't know about good. 34 years in the martial arts and I've only started to get the internal jins in the last 8 years. My struggling has made it easy to explain things to others once I get them. I train 3-4 hours a day to be funtional. Good is a carrot.

[Chang Style Novice]

It's very simple. There has never ever in the history of all humanity been a fight between two styles. Styles are abstract, non-physical things. They lack feet, fists, arms, legs, bodies, heads, and minds. They simply cannot fight.

Men fight. All the time. Some use styles, others don't. Some men with styles beat those without them. Sometimes it's the reverse.

So, it's the man, QED. The logic is airtight and bulletproof.

Mods, can we lock this thread now? I solved it.

[scotty1]

LOL @ DelicateSound. Nice post. "Abstract. Formlessness. Boundless. Anus."

I think, because we all obviously like to talk about Kung Fu and spend quite a lot of time doing so on this board it is possible to over analyse things which are in reality really quite simple.:)

[yuxiang]

I never had a chance to choose the style I practice. I was never in a place that offered the styles I wanted. So I just do what is offered (and interests me).
For me, the answer would be the practitioner. Its all on us to make the style compliment ourselves.

[tnwingtsun]

"Without question, Master Chan Bong's E-chuan is the best. most direct and real methods I have ever seen. Not saying he is the best, because I haven't seen it all."



"Without question, Master Chan Bong's E-chuan is the best"


"Not saying he is the best, because I haven't seen it all."


Well,which one???


Does it say in the dictionary under Redundant-See redundent?


Not to the word but it fits the above biased statements.


Your personal experience has taken you to the level you're at now,you missed alot on the way but you've found Yi-Chaun
which is a top rate MA!

That being said and the WT/WC guys wanting your head I thought I'd mess with ya.

My Sifu's younger brother teaches Yi-Chaun and I've been exposed to his methods,some to the point no nonsence $hit!


Happy New Year Bak Mei
:D

[jon]

"I disagree. I truly believe there are better methods, better styles and way. Now, a better way in the hands of a lessor man does not accomplish much. But take that die hard Hung Gar guy, Wing Chun Guy, S. Mantis guy pounding away at Iron Palm, and show him some inner Ba Gua, and watch the hell out -- that guy is going to tear it up. He can still be a S. Mantis guy, but it will be super charged with higher level principles.

This is my opinion, but I am so sure of it I would give it the FACT stamp of aproval."

The last sentence is a contradiction in terms but thats not the only thing wrong with this whole paragraph. Its also very insulting to all of us studying arts like HG, SPM and WC. Do you really not believe we have higher level principals to? Maybe you just either were not taught or didnt learn correctly.
Ive read a few of your posts and whilst your clearly a good student and very dedicated to both your art and your sifu there are a few things i would like to state.
I think its NEVER a good idea to publicly go on and on about how much better your sifu and school is than others. If your happy with what your learning thats great but you should not draw examples to other styles to state why you like it. This just leads to arguments, you cant know your methods are perfect and you cant say if there any better than anyone elses without having reached the pinacle of the other style. They can certainly work better for you, but to say that someone else is wrong becouse it didnt work in your experience is not wise.
Im honestly not surprised there are WC guys who are not happy with you, you openly bag there art. If you were beaten by a WC guy would you go learn WC?
Power is power, skill is skill, kung fu is kung fu.
Its not the method its not the person its the result.
Your way works best for you and allows you to feel things you couldnt feel in other arts.
I studied Xingyi which is an internal style and felt no experience with energy at all. Proberly mainly due to a low level sifu who im honestly not sure even understood chi himself. I now study Hung Ga often considered an external style and feel energy and chi flowing all the time. I also learn qigung and healing in my school ive many times experienced chi and seen the results of having it added to combat or healing. I do not take kindly to the implication that somehow im learning a lesser system. Should i state publicly that Xingyi is not internal becouse of my experience?
Just saying what works for one wont always work for the other. As long as the end result [learning to keep healthy and defend the self and loved ones] is the same who really cares how anyone got there or what exactly they name it?
Im not trying to pick a fight with you im just a little put out now at reading several posts by you which attempt to put down another art by name whilst upnoting your own, also by name. I dont think this is good charactor for someone claiming to be from a good school especialy when they name there sifu openly. Are you not a little worried someone may challenge out of your disrespect? Even if your sifu won do you think he would be happy with you?
Many paths lead to the same peak... So dont throw rocks at the others trying a different one.

[jon]

IMO
Good Hung Ga is a combination of both internal and external pricipals. The main problem is becouse the lower levels of Hung Ga are very external its often viewed in public as being a hard system. This view is not helped by the MANY hung ga practioners who are stiff as a board and act like there made of metal. These people cant use there art in combat beyond simply beating up the local thugs and give our art a bad name among higher level arts. There is a definate movement among better Hung Ga practioners to focus more on the internal aspects even in the starting forms. They tend to be in there but frequently misinterpreted. Hung Ga should also ime always supplemented with qigung and meditation. We are not contry to some beliefs just sitting in horse stance flexing our muscles.

My point with the xingyi comment was simply to say it would be very foolish of me to try and put down xingyi based on my past experience. I know now full well how powerfull some players are and would take nothing away from there art.

[Ford Prefect]

Yuxian,

"I drank what?!"

LOL! I wonder how many people know which movie that came from.

[shaolinboxer]

Real Genious ;)

[Bak Mei]

I was trying to say my master's e-chuan was the best I have ever seen. He is the best at it because its his style.

What am I comparing it to, Frank Yee's Hung Gar, Milton Chin's S. Mantis, and the local NYC chinatown Wing Chun. I have a lot of respect for all of these styles. I trained hard at them. Frank Yee and Milton Chin were idols of mine, I mean, come on, the real deal all the way. Hardcore.

My OPINION does not and couldn't take anything away from such men. I say that I won't say my master is the best because who knows, maybe there is some immortal out there shooting chi balls, I don't know. I doubt it. I'll say this tough, my master is the best I have ever seen. I've only been at it for 23 years, but I have never seen anyone or anything half to what his methods are. I never thought masters truly exist until training wit him.

I won't mention it again. I will say this, Wing Chun, Hung Gar, Shotokan, Tae Kwon Do, BJJ, ANYONE, can say Ba Gua sucks, Hsing-I is terrible, this or that -- I DON'T CARE! I know what and how I'm training. That's all that matters. Everyone should feel the same way about their training, or they're in the wrong place. I could be training anywhere in the tri-state area. I go where I go because I think I'm going to the best. Where else would I go, the second best?

I think people are taking points that they find offensive or raise their own concerns and missing the big point that was being said, about having an OPEN MIND.

"I'm ****ed you said my style/teacher is inferior."

"Well then you'll never consider that maybe it is. Or not inferior but lacking, and the holes could be filled if you were not so proud to look."

[Bak Mei]

PS, that comment was not directed to anyone in particluar. And what I said about comparisons would probbaly be backed up the parties mentioned as well. I have a great respect when someone beats me -- that person must be training harder or smarter, mostv likely smarter. These people didnlt get to where they are without a similiar mindset. They apreciate good gung fu. And I apreciate them. I'd be no where without my hung gar, wing chun, AND ESPECIALLY S. Mantis training.

I can't say enough good things about S. Mantis, as I said in numerous posts here -- great style.

Best of luck to everyone and their training, may we all gather at the top of the mountain some day -- just that some paths are more direct then others. (come on, I still have to be me and speak my mind -- its the Web)

[rubthebuddha]

indeed, may we all gather at the top of the mountain, but you know **** well that when we get there, a little, old man with the cliché fu manchu is going to be up there, offer us some dim sum (rubthedimsum), then point left to an even higher mountain and tell us that we still have plenty more to climb. :)

[guohuen]

This is funny. You two are talking about my two favorite arts! Hongquan I practice and Xing yi Quan I admire on principle for it's purity and directness. Hong Quan I respect because it's the first Chinese art I learned and the one I kept after I gave up the other stuff. I also feel it is a complete system based on the five animals representing the five elements and utilizing the destruction cycle. I think they both reach the same point of the li leading the chi, but in theory Yi Chuan gets you there faster. What I like about Hong Quan is you have five animals to play with to keep you amused so your not so serious all the time.

Kick the dead horse and smells of death come out.

Your kung fu obviously works for you, Bak Mei. Not only that, nobody here thinks your kung fu sucks except for Ralek.

When it's all said and done, most of us legitimate martial artists (you included) will be practicing too much to even CARE about the "man or style" argument!

[Bak Mei]

Aint that the truth. I'm never satisfied, there always has to be more, no?

[Kristoffer]

http://community.webshots.com/storage/1/v4/1/2/66/12210266FQwkHtoslM_ph.jpg

[Ryu]

Don't hate Royce cuz of Ralek :(


There's so many better reasons to hate him! :D


JK,
Royce, in actuality, is probably one of the toughest guys you'll see in NHB... IMHO Everyone he ever fought was practically always bigger than he was.

Ryu

[red5angel]

Bak Mei, you an dI started off on the wrong foot, I wish to apologize. You seem like an intelligent person who is well meant, the problem is your delivery. You seem very confident in who you are and want you want out of MA. The problem is your critical of things you dont really appear to understand, and base them purely on what you have experienced. I dont mean this as an insult, but you need to have a wider view, a much more open ideal of the way things are. You also need to be more respectful about other peoples arts. We all do these things because we love them for whatever reason, whether its love of fighting, love of tradition, love of KF movies, whatever. Most of us do different arts, and those who do similar arts still do things differently. This can be a volitile subject and we still need to be respectful of each other.
You have made some broad, sweeping ,and very general statements about WC, and for whatever reason you are unimpressed with the art. Thats fine, but that doesnt mean it doesnt work. I studied Okinawan Karate for 5 years before getting into WC recently, and I found that WC has better principles, is more comfortable, and seems more 'right' to me. It doesnt make Karate any less, just not for me. I am not a big fan of TKD for my own personal reasons, but I will never tell anyone it sucks, or that it doesnt work, I know two young ladies who ake it work quite well. am I making any sense here?

[Bak Mei]

Red Angel, I agree with you and apologize if I offended you, and I can see how I did; again sorry.

I agree with the Okinawan reference as well. Isshin-Ryu was what I did my entire childhood, great style for basics, maybe could have been better if I stayed with it into manhood. Going from that into Hung Gar and Wing Chun was a real eye openor as I'm sure you know: you mean you can trap? And all that cool stuff.

I do base my view on my experience, because that's what I have. It's not that I think Wing Chun is bad, not at all, just that I don't think it is as good as made to be. That is, its not that its bad, its that, I stress, too me, lacks some aspects of mechanics, not principles. For example, I never learned the importance or curling my tail bone up. The difference between a spine with a curve which has a breaking point and a stright spine that acts like a spike driven into the ground result in two different results.

Maybe that point was lacking in my sifu;s knowledge, maybe it just wasn't revealed to me. But its a pretty basic point, not brain surgery, but one of those things you would never think of until someone shares it with you. There are a few things like that, which was lacking from MY wing chun experince, that I thought were crucial points left out. To me, an inch, or a little thing like that, makes a difference.

But, and this I guess was not made clear because to me it is simply implied, WE ARE ALL BROTHERS IN THE MARTIAL ARTS.

The mere fact that we are here sharing these things, you have a closer place in my heart than some of my distant family. For real. I respect fellow artists in pursuit of these things.

Well, it's that time, I'm out of here, going to go swimming and then get some grub.

Be well.
Ray

[red5angel]

Thanks for understanding what I was saying, I took the time to go back and read your post before I posted my last message and came to the conclusions I did. You have supported my belief that you are a sensible person and much smarter then you may appear at times on the forum but aren't we all! :)
Concerning WC, I have fallen in love with this art, because in my eyes it works very well (For me anyway :) ) but I have come to see some major issues with it, and most of it actually doesnt have to do with the art:

1.) WC is in a political mess, its was an MA superstar there for a short time in Hong Kong, for whatever reason, and a few people grabbed on to it and tried to make it thier own, for the wrong reasons. They have also been very outspoken about thier ways as well, which just compounds and confuses the issue.

2.) It has suffered the same thing that Karate and TKD has, in that it has been westernized to a great degree, we are only fortunate in that there are sitll many WC masters alive to keep its blood line pure for a little longer. It has become sort of the "belt Factory" of the chinese arts. Too may people out there claiming to be "authentic" Wing Chun people but arent. I may stir the pot a little here ubt in general, and that is a big in general, westerners are too impatient to learn things the long way, they want results now. They want to see big changes quickly. This tends to weaken ideals that come from cultures used to more patience. If you dont believe this, look around at the greates martial artist you know, or see, and ask yourself if they have taken the time to patiently learn what they fealt they needed to.

Having been to looking for a while for the right sifu, and coming across many that were and many that weren't. I have learned a valuable lesson in being choosy. Even then, the art may not have what I want. For instance, My karate Dojo, was excellent, it had a little of everything, some traditional material, a really good testing regimen, excellent staff and instructors. It was great! but the style itself just didnt suit me.

[jon]

Good to see this dicussion has come full circle and we are now discussing the problems in our arts as oppossed to why there so much better than everyone elses.
Bak Mei good on you for taking the time to explain your points better and make a mens with some of us from your afore mentioned styles.
I of course have LOADS of respect for internal arts and i actualy intend on studying bagua as is fairly common among Hung practioners of my linage, it limbers up the footwork and softens the spine making our normal movements more natural.
As stated previously one of the great things in Hung is the five animals and its what got me interested and keeps me there.
I love the ability of the art to mold to fit how im feeling at the time. I also train hard and with no filler i can use what i know and often fairly well. The tools i train i can also use, i study tiger - i have a conditioned claw. This is not the same everywhere and i have seen many give me art a bad name.
Still its good to know there are others out there also studying real martial arts and learning in the traditional way.
Respects to ya guys