Wushu or Kung fu

[Richie]

I was wondering. What do you guys think you do? Kung fu or Wushu? Saddly, there are a lot of people who think they know kung fu when it really is wushu. I think if your teacher came from PRC, they probably do wushu. I know people may jump on me because of that statment. However, I would say that maybe 15% of the MA in mainland China is Traditional. The Commies messed everything up. Thanx a lot Mao! ;)

Im writing this because I've been to tournaments where the judges would get mad because of all of the wushu guys in traditional.

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

i do kung fu, but i don't have no fancy lineage or anything.

i just go to my sifu's house where he beats us down and builds us up.

[Brad]

Personally, I prefer my wushu over most "American" kungfu. I also tend to use the term wushu to refer to all Chinese martial arts.

[Shaolindynasty]

"I also tend to use the term wushu to refer to all Chinese martial arts."

Me to. The irony of kungfu vs. wushu is lost to most on these boards. I have to agree most people who complain about wushu just feel insucure about what they do. Don't use the arguement "they make us look like dancers" cause if people think no CMA work for combat then let them, what they don't know can kill them. Anyway most "traditional" people who hate wushu are just jealous that they aren't as athletic as sanda/sanshou or talou competitiors are. I'll have to agree with richie to an extent to. Most of the stuff comming out of PRC is contempory now, but they are good at what they do. I don't we should count out the american kungfu people yet though, just cause I'm not asian doesn't mean I suck or have to bow to another who is asian. My system has been completely out of taiwan for 2 generations and my sigung was brazilian......so other countries have good kungfu to, just maybe a little different flavor.

[Richie]

Yeah, I agree with you. A lot guys hate wushu because they do what they do well. I'm not a wushu hater. I like watchin g wushu (esspecially the women). I just dont like it when a guy enters traditional and busts out with butterfly twist, and other wushu stuff.

[Shaolindynasty]

I read you, it kinda confuses stuff doesn't it? I have mixed feelings about traditional kungfu forms comps anyway. I feel they are good as a promotional tool but they don't really look as spectacular as contemp stuff. I think the reason why is cause trad. forms are a tool like drills etc. to build fighting abilities. So for me somtimes I feel like traditional forms competition is a little like going to demonstrait an exercise. I wouldn't get worked up about forms comps. Contemporay on the other hand was created with performance in mind, so they would kick the crap out of traditional styles in forms comps. I guess what I mean to say is if my main interest was to go to talou comps I would go learn wushu for sure. Seeing as how real use not competitions is my focus then I go with traditional stuff(or anything combat ready). If you compete often in forms I would suggest you learn wushu since it's what scores, and winning is what matters in competitions( in the street to for that matter).

[Tae Li]

I don't practise kung fu, however some people may be insulted by confusing wushu with kung fu, regardless that wushu, does stand for 'martial arts' in Chinese.

I thought that wushu is more about flexibility, combining gymastics with dancing and fighting...or am I wrong? please feel free to correct me, and that it is more a demonstration art? no?

Oh well, I like it anyway, only cos Li Lian is involved.....

;)

[Brad]

I thought that wushu is more about flexibility, combining gymastics with dancing and fighting...or am I wrong? please feel free to correct me, and that it is more a demonstration art? no?
Yes & No. The beginer & intermediate leval modern wushu stuff is very similar to the traditional styles it was created from. It's mostly just the compulsory competition routine and self coreagraphed stuff(what everyone sees in competition) I think really differs. Personally I feel the main purpose of modern wushu is to build a good physical base for other arts. This seems to be how my teacher uses it (he's from the older wushu generation-pre cultural revolution). I guess I was little hard on American Kungfu. I'm not talking about non Chinese. It's just that it seems like nearly half of what I see isn't even kungfu/wushu. Of course there's still a lot of non mainland schools that I like(wutan for example). It just seems like the bad outwieghs the good.

[Bak Mei]

Don't even get me started.

All I'll say is something can mean whatever it wants to mean, but what is it taken as? When I think of Wushu, I think of pink satin, flexible foil swords, and cartweels.

Someone asked if I am jelous? No! If I put as much time into gymnastics as I do into gung-fu, I'd be an olympic athlete.

Do I find it beautiful, no, not really. I am impressed with their ability to move at first, because anyone devoting thsat much time to something, and acquiring that skill get's my respect. Then I remember that they consider themselves Martial Artists and I get a sick feeling in my stomach -- that they even get coverage in a MARTIAL magazine. Hey, good for them, but they fit better in an entertainment weekly mag that one devoted to any martial content.

Guess I couldn't keep from commenting. In the end, I have a strong distaste for Wushu. I met soemone who trained with a Shoalin Monk in the city (NYC), I don;t know which one. We were at a party and my aprtment was across the street. Invited them over because I wanted to see the flavor of their stuff.

Started doing a form and right away I knew -- Wushu. Hands held out far to the side, weak structure, high kicks with a straight leg, no bend, no forward momentum, leaning back to gain hight. I asked to chi sau. What? I asked to demonstrate some self defense, off a simple routine, and very user friendly straight blast: COULDN'T DO ONE TECHNIQUE. COULDN'T RECALL ONE WAY TO STOP A PUNCH.

Now, it wasn't so bad because this was a chick -- ha ha -- and she was good looking, but after her display, I found her to be ugly, she was contributing to the ba$tardization of something I hold dear.

[shaolinboxer]

It wasn't her fault, it was her instructor.

Wushu is a great sport and can teach you a lot about martial spirit (besides getting you into crack shape).

[David Jamieson]

wushu vs Kung fu.

here we go :D

contemporary wushu, that is to say the competition forms that were created in teh 70's and then recreated again later to conform to the governing bodies ideas about how wu shu should be done in order to compete in a governed and structured format is actually highly athletic and demanding of it's practitioners.

It requires great flexibility and as well strength and athleticism to be able to perform.

However, it is incorrect in a kinetic energy sense and the alignment of the body is also incorrect in terms that map across to power generation principles assoiciated with traditional or classical "Kung Fu".

The arms and legs are often hyper extended in wushu, this is a no no in combat styles.

the back is arched on many a wushu performer and the long term benifits that one acquires with trad practice is not available in the modern wu shu curriculum.

the weapons are absolutely useless martially as they have no weight or tenacity to them.

also, in modern wu shu, power generation is not even comparable to that found in classical styles.

so, in my opinion, contemporary wu shu is great for providing general awareness of chinese martial arts, it is seeking to validate itself via san shou which is chinese kickboxing and is practiced by wu shu players as a way of applying skills martially even though the principles and tenets are obviously quite different.

wu shu has it's place, wu shu is the correct term for "chinese martial arts" but to equate it to classical methods is like comparing the stopping power of a bb gun compared to a colt 45.

wu shu has it's place, but many practitioners recognize that it does not provide much in the area of martially applicable skill until the players makes the bridge into the traditional principles and concepts that are driving the actual "fighting" arts as opposed to "performing" arts.

wu shu is to kung fu what balet is to boxing. Both require skill, but both have very different application.

Don't get me totally wrong, I like wu shu, I like to watch it and I think the performers work very hard, but to make it martially usable, the player has to map that information over into the correct body mechanics that are recquired to make it so.

peace

[les paul]

Bak mei and Kung lek

I couldn't have said it any better.

Les paul

[scotty1]

The girl you talked about would only be "contributing to the ba$tardization of something I hold dear" if she was touting herself as being Kung Fu, and not Wushu.

Did she say she trained KF?

[Bak Mei]

Shaolinboxer, I do not consider breaking spines and necks a sport -- do you?

It always seems I'm coming off as the bad guy. I try to make my entire life a meditation, and live with the beliefe that each moment there is a choice between the right action and the wrong action, but in the end I don't even think about it and just be myself. Most of the times I believe I do the right thing, sometimes I make fun of Wing Chun and get aggrovated by the slams in return.

BUT, I am 100% martial in my studies. Wu Shu is a sport, so is ping pong. Boxing is already crossing that line, I don't think you would feel to sporty after taking a Tyson upper cut to the chin.

Martial arts is about battle -- period. And yes, she mentioned she "practices kung fu". If she told me wu shu I would have said, "That's nice, wears the salsa dip?"

Since she said kung fu, my ears shot up. O, really, want to take a walk over to my place and show me some (remeber, at this point she was a cutie).

It's not her teachers fault (he's offering a service) and its not her fault (she doing what she wants), its the fault of mass conscious thinking and many MA are guilty of that. I have a sash and a flexible sword, I do kung fu -- do you?

Think about it. You are swinging a sword around. Are you really ready to use it? In combat against someone else with a sharp, edges sword? Either $hit or get off the pot. Learn it for real, how to redirect the sword while maintaining your disposition, cutting, shielding, ect., or don't. Other wise its drama, performance, entertainment.

I have played golf on video games, I don't tell people I'm a golf player. I have played stick ball, not baseball. Call it what it is -- dancing around trying to look martial, but to the martial it looks rediculous.

Bak Mei,
Beautifully put, Im with you 100% on that one.

[Chang Style Novice]

Am I going to have to drag out the parable of the elephant AGAIN!?

[Shaolindynasty]

Like I said, traditional for real, contemporary for sport. Man Bak Mei, this is twice we agreed on somthing, isn't that a sign of the apocolypse?

[rubthebuddha]

nah. but you better send satan some blankets in case it starts getting cold down there.

[GLW]

Strange...I do TRADITIONAL Zha Quan (Cha Kuen)....

Gong Bu, Ma Bu, etc... all the same....

A punch...with full extension IS the ideal for Zha Quan..as are the low stances for Taolu....The saying is that you train low and long to use high. the extension is to train NOT letting your power stop and to find that magical area where the end of one technique naturally blends to the beginning of another. Shou Yen ShenFa Bu....All parts mix together as one.

The problem is and always has been that many modern people do NOT do their own routines correctly. If you look at the description of the move in the standard and then look at how a Beijing Team member does it...way different and not for any reason other than they were allowed to do the easy way.

This applies to the old compulsory routines. The old Changquan routine is perfectly fine when compared to any of the 10 Zha Quan routines....or the Pao Quan sets as well.

This is not the case for the latest ones....those routines are...in my opinion, just bad routines. They have moved very far from the ideal and the older generation of teachers are often refusing to learn or teach them.

This argument of Traditional Vs. Modern is a complete waste of time. It divides more than anything else. There are a lot more areas for commonality than anything else. Is it not enough that in events such as the one in San Diego last November that the Modern and Traditional are separated in divisions....and judged according to division standard....

Why do so many wish to divide on such a meaningless issue.

The real root of this goes all the way back to the Gou Ming Dan Vs. Mao...and personally, I refuse to deal with the PRC Vs. Taiwan politics.....

It is ALL wushu...and worthy of being learned and preserved.

[MightyB]

I don't have a problem with the idea of a couple of forms that everybody knows and can compete on an equal level with, I just get sick of the prancing.

The Wushu world has kind've lost me in the last couple of years, didn't there used to be compulsary forms? I see the stuff now and everybody is doing their own thing, or are the commies changing the compulsaries yearly to give themselves an unfair advantage in 2008?

Ugh, wushu...

Come one, come all and watch the authentic Shaolin Monk (wushu) team! That p!sses me off more than anything. You go to watch what you think are Shaolin Monks and you get... Ugh, wushu...

Wushu makes good movies though.

Peace,

The B

[Kristoffer]

Wushu--- :D
I would like to learn some just to impress chicks :D Its cool to be able to jump 3 m in the air man! Who cares if u can fight with it? :D

[DelicateSound]

Commercialisation
B*stardisation
Confusion
Ignorance

The four reasons most people believe stuff like Wushu and Tae Bo are Martial Arts. Can't really blame them, they have no real interest in MA, and they see a guy fighting and think its "KungFu".

There are too many styles to be recognisable. I was talking to a kickboxer on new years eve about Kung Fu. He said he wanted to join, I suggested my school (Lau Gar). His reason was because:

"Bruce Lee did Kung Fu right - he was a hard f*cker, he was"

See what I mean. I didn't have the time or patience to explain the intricacies, I just made my excuses and went to get a well-deserved drink.

[GLW]

"The four reasons most people believe stuff like Wushu and Tae Bo are Martial Arts. "

Not EVEN in the same category. Tae Bo...BS....

Wushu...generic term for Martial Art in Chinese. Most of the routines you see are heavily influenced by Northern fists. So...if you do Lau Gar, it WILL look strange to you because the concepts of Northern Fist are totally foreign to a Southern Fist like Lau Gar.

As for the compulsories...it would lend a lot of credibility to people's arguments if they knew something about what Modern Wushu is and is not before saying things.

Prancing IS bad technique. There are standard routines and you are supposed to be evaluated on speed, power, conformance to the standard routine, sense of enemy...etc.... If a competitor is given a high score or many competitors are given high scores but do not show these things...it is BAD JUDGING. Competitors do what they are rewarded for so lay the blame of prancing squarely on the shoulders of the coaches and judges. They are the ones promoting it.

The flashy stuff does NOT get by a good judge. But, there are too few good judges....

As for the changes in routines....the original routines (long fist, spear, broadsword, straightsword, staff) were 10+ years old. Routines for Southern barehand, broadsword, staff, Taiji barehand and sword wer added. They are less than 10 years old....and have not been changed.

The other routines just became final in 2001. Personally, I think the new routines are bad routines....they do not flow and do not have a strong traditional foundation. The old routines did.

As for using tinfoil weapons and such...there is a move in China now to make the weapons be of a standard weight and length. The weight is actually on par with the traditional weights for things like lung chuan swords. So ...this complaint will go away.

If they lose the connection to the tradtional art, Contemporary Wushu will have NOTHING that distinguishes it as an art form or sport from gymnastics. The ONLY way they can keep that connection is to keep the Traditional folks involved. We Traditional folks benefit from this because in MANY cases an athlete starts out doing Modern...and then goes looking for Traditional....when you get one of these people, htye come in with a lot of ability and typically better and more workable basics than those who come to Chinese styles from things like Tae Kwon Do....it is a win win situation...but only if you look for it to be.

[Bak Mei]

For the record I have no quams with "traditional" vs. contemporary or modern" -- I do not even know what that means.

The stuff I do I'm doing now. It comes from the ancient, I am studying Ba GUa and HSing-I, but it is now. It worked then, it works now. That IS traditional to me, having it work in real combat situations. Some things were changed or modified, some internal added from other methods, changed, but that is what traditional is, a living art.

My quam however is with real vs. flash. FLASH has NO PLACE, zero, in a martial discussion. Hell, if you look good taking down a guy who out weight you by 65 lbs, all the better, but get him down first.

I do agree with the gentleman who spoke of kicking high as an extension of power. I think that is correct, why stop yourself? That way you feel your power instead of the other guy? I always follow through when practicing isolated moevemnts, hit the brakes when shadow boxing to keep it real. Sometimes seniors don't know when I'm doing which and correct me, then, unlike here, I keep my mouth shut and not at their corrections.

However, following through a high kick is very different from a cartwheel, and the one I love, running away, jumping with a split in the air and showing out the tin foil blade. I love that one, I want to just rip their balls off when I see that.

[rubthebuddha]

bak mei: i'm kinda scared by this, but i agree with you. maybe it's cause we're not talking about wing chun :)

kung lek: is there anything you don't know? if there isn't, is there anything you can't explain really frickin well? jebus. ;)

[norther practitioner]

BM...don't hate the player, hate the game.
Remember, some of the "monks" were taught wushu and traditional. They may teach the wushu to instil the flexibility, agility, and stances into their beginning students. Wushu is freaking awsome to watch and they have an incrdible amount of skill. Whether that is a martial skill.....I say no, as do most of you, but if and when some of these athletes decide to add the martial aplication, then tend to make some serious talented martial artists. Wushu is cool, kung fu is cooler (and deadly).

End of story!

[Bak Mei]

There is no dount these guys have a skill. No doubt they have put in their time. So have balerinas, should we hand them a staff while they perform and call it Wushu? A wushu guy would probbaly be ****ed, and say, hey, that's not wushu. She's just doing balerina stuff with a staff in her hand.

What they are doing is not a MARTIAL art. I'm here on a martial arts board, I don't see where Wushu should fit in unless using the CHinese translation which refers to combat methods.

I don't hate the game or player, I hate the association that that has anything to do with martial arts. I do not want to be even remotely conected to that. I have to say though, I honestly do not find it beautiful. I find a nice compact jamming moved, delivered with a good pushing angle a thing of beauty, I really do. The subtle things that most poeple don't notice, I get excited about, and inside I go, "Man, that guy's really good. Did you see the way he maintained his drive while executing that, elbows down, good pushing angle, straight back."

I'll take that over any flips, splits, or duo-form excercise. I'll take that over a guy with a spear to his neck, flaming ice or boards, or even a guy swinging the hell out of a kwan do. I really like it simple and clean. Short, explosive.

[DelicateSound]

Sorry if I ****ed you off. I didn't mean to b!tch on Trad. Wushu, or Northern Styles. I meant to say that there are a lot of Systems, like Contemporary Wushu, and Tae Bo, that aren't really Martial Arts, but the public views them as such and they sully the name of real MA's.

IMHO, REAL Trad. Wushu is fine, but the fancy ballerina crap gives it a bad rep

Sorry if I p!ssed you off GLW. :eek:

[norther practitioner]

Bak Mei, it is "related" to Martial Arts, however, I do "ahem" agree with you that it is not martial arts. Nor is half the crap coming out of some of these mcschools. I know a lot of wushu people who know how to differentiate themselves and do. If you don't want anything to do with them fine, but like I said earlier, you are just being a hater. Who's fault is it that wushu is associated with traditional at all, well geez, I guess every event promoter, ahhh, hmmm, China, mmmmmmm, any teacher that teaches both, or adds any sort of flavor to a form. dude, just chill, the best people just do it, not talk on and on about it. Who really cares, ****, the way you talk, you can take them all on. So I don't know why you are so hostile.

[MightyB]

Ouch Northern, that BM reference is a real stinger.

Anyhoo, Wushu isn't bad, heck, if I was 15 years younger, I'd a probably wanted to learn a form or two from the old compulsaries. I thought and think that the Southern compulsary is cool.

Wushu is fun to look at, and it is a good display of Athleticism, as a "traditionalists", I think that learning a compulsiary to compete with isn't all that bad. Bud, wushu forms by themselves and without a traditional base are weak. Big time weak, especially the weapons.

Hey, it's my opinion anyway.

The B

[Bak Mei]

I got a right to be hostile ... my people been persecuted.

Like that Chang Style Novice? Busting out the PE.

Honestly ... I don't care about Wushu or any other style, I simply care about my training. But since the work day is long, I like to come here and share my thoughts with everyone else.

Perhaps you would prefer if I was the type that said: O' I love Wushu, it's great for martial arts. Maybe someday no one will be interetsed in learning defense, and MA will be a dance act -- Awesome.

Tai Kwon Do? LOVE IT. So real. I think we should all turn sideways and make our waist to chest the strike zone, that will work wonders on the street! I think I'm going to incorporate it.

Or how about this, let your opinion be your opinion and let my opionion be mine. If you disagree with my opinion, say so, say why. But why would you judge me, a stranger, for my opinion? I'm hostile, because as a MA I think those including themselves under that umbrella should be practicing martial arts. I don't see the flaw in that logic: Martial artist= martial training.

Why is this such a dirty concept. In a way, I like it that way. Makes what I am studying, and others here, more valuable.

[NorthernMantis]

I have nothing againts wu shu guys but I have to agree with the traditionalists.

Is it me or are the wu shu forms too simple?I mean have you seen a two man empty hand form?Punch,punch,block,punch,punch,punch,block,pun ch,then kick.What was that?

Where's the technique,the flavor?Now you watch a traditional form and you don't just see punches and blocks,you see palm strikes,hair pulls,backfists,fingers strikes.More variation.The solo forms are get to me also.

Run,run,run,run with arms like a bird,jump,flip, land,kick slap the ground and pose with stance then run, run, run, run, again.

I got to me after watching that over and over.See one modern taolou you seen them all.

That's why I like traidional kung fu.You don't run and stay standing when you can get toppled over.In kung fu almost everymove has a stance with it to generate power and to mainatin balance.You defend your self with every stance and youuse technique.

Look at traditional forms.Every school has avriation not the same one.THey use more teqchnique. (I'll do this one with mantis flavor) step cat stance long attack(punch),chain step into a cat stance hook with with right (short defend) and poke eye with left hook(short attack), step foward arrow stance an pull opponent in with left hook and palm strike with the ridge hand,etc

Southern forms are very northern influenced.Word on the net is that wing chun was also made as a cumpulsory for wu shu is that true?

[norther practitioner]

OK, Bak, no doubt that it is not a MA, no doubt that you hate it, no doubt that you are threatened by it, what ever, do your kung fu, I'll do mine, and they will do their tumbling (which, could be a good skill to know). It is valuable to the kung fu community, that has been established, whether it is over played or not is a totally different issue. Whether people sell tangarines and call them oranges is a problem in naming, not the product. So, the female that you brought back to your place is going to get her ass handed to her by an experienced fighter, good, then maybe she will get some real training by applying herself, and bothering to learn the applications (the first question everybody should ask, or the first thing you should realize). You sit there and crisize these techniques like they are tangible, they are not, the practitioner is. Oh, I agree, a lot of flaws in all fighting systems, but if there were a perfect one then we would be in serious trouble. Learn from all, maybe the intiation from that kick is just what you need to gain some explosion. I think most of the stuff out there is crap. See I love practicing northern, but I will take all I can from wherever I can. I happen to see some value in some (not all) of the skills learned in wushu. Tell me that you wouldn't be better off being able to jump a little higher, do splits without even thinking about it, or being able to do a flip. You may not want to do a flip in combat per say, but it is a skill that can be used (having the ability to roll out of a hold easier).

[Richie]

Man, are you GW from Raffi's site? If you are, you do wushu. Your teacher was lying to you and you were hearing what you want to hear. You always try to say "Oh its the same, its same." You try to bridge KF and W. Wushu has no martial use"."

You can say "oh this technique came from that" or "This style is really #$%& quan". Well, that is a load of crap. That is the difference of KF and W. One is the real deal and the other is jumping around in cute silk suit with a sweet big bow on your hip. Weapons are light and useless. You guys use poor body mech, and whack stances. I saw a Beijing Wushu Team chick doing a cat stance. It was too low and the funny thing was that she was leaning so far forward that her head was basic above empty legs knee. She had to for balance. If you tap her on her forehead, she is falling over. Wushu's low back stance will get your rear knee broken. Wushu stance are too low. Yeah too low, and dont you think that is funny hearing that from a guy who does monkey style and ditang? It puts a lot of stress on your knees. Cats before said it better than I.

It's like comparing a rock to an orange. Kung fu is a rock and wushu is an orange, because you guys are sooo sweet.

[norther practitioner]

Ok.....wushu people dance around a floor, but all I am saying is that wushu and kung fu are cousins, and that each has something to learn from the other. No, I do not do wushu, I think it is cool for what it is, but that is it. I agree with most of what everyone is saying, just trying to play devils advocet about a few points. Having the leg strength to do a stance like that is good, the stance itself sucks, but doing it "correctly" is the important thing. I think it is a good skill to have...being able to do more agile things....thats all, agility is good. Wushu forms are boring, they lack substance, it is like a ballet...whatever you want to call it. Dance, flexiblity, musical talent, talent in other sport, they can all help your kung fu....and I guess this most of my point.

[joedoe]

Does it really matter? Just practice what you practice and be happy. Who care if a wushu person claims he does kung fu - one day they may get a rude awakening. Or maybe you will ;)

[GLW]

Hmm..me do Modern...what a laugh...

I happen to be one of the TRADITIONAL head judges for USAWKF....national level and have worked at standardizing the rules and judging for Traditional Wushu AND sparring....for the USAWKF since it was the USCMAC....

I DO NORTHERN FIST...as well as having learned southern white crane, Wing Chun, Taijiquan (several styles)....and have done a small bit of Hung Gar...doesn't fit my body type....

Shr Lu Tan Tui was one of the first things I learned...Lien Bu Quan...Gong Li Quan....Da Hong Quan....etc....all traditional. Lien Bu and Gon Li are used by northern and southern....

I chose northern because it fits my body build...and it works every muscle group in the body.

If you have not heard of Wang Ziping...then you do not know much about northern. If you HAVE heard of Wang Ziping....and want to say what I do is Modern Wushu...well that shows your lack of knowledge.....

Look him up...Nanjing Central Guoshu Guan....Dept. Head - Shaolin Division....1920's....

From Grandmaster Wang --- Lien Yong Kan...good for health, good for defense, good for art...that is what Wushu must include.

The folks who prance and do weird stuff....that is not good for anything.

As for the person who said I was ****ed...nope...not at all.

I just find it funny that the Modern Wushu folks NEVER debate or argue about the validity or right to exist of Traditional Wushu...even though there is much more greed, corruption, crime, and BS in the Traditional Wushu world (My first teacher was involved in the Chinese Mafia....go figure)....

Yet the Traditional Wushu folks constantly go down this road....to what purpose....?

[Richie]

Thats fine and good that you are a judge, but most of the judges should be judging at all. I know some guys who are good as hell but they dont compete in America. I asked why and they said " These guys are not qualified to judge me". I look at some of the judges and he was right. You may be one of these clowns. The USAWKF is a joke. You guys fight over dumb stuff and the tournament are poorly run and poorly JUDGED.

I dont know much about Northern, well I do Northern. Do you know my Si Gung or Si Tai Gung? If you dont know them, you dont know anything about Northern.

Wait a minute. Who are you GLW? Anyone can say they are judges. Why don't you let me look you up?

[Chang Style Novice]

No special opinion about wushu vs. gongfu, except that the wushu I've seen looks like it is hard to do but martially dubious - an opinion that certainly doesn't break new ground.

But, I HATE poor choices of metaphor.

An orange is a living growing thing. A rock is a dead lump. An orange can perpetuate itself. A rock cannot. If you eat an orange, your body and mind benefit. If you eat a rock, you'll need surgery. An orange seems to be one thing on the surface, but if you open it, you will find something more, and still more within that. A rock appears to be one thing on the surface, and inside is just more of the same.

SO THERE!

BTW, the lesson of the parable of the elephant (http://www.noogenesis.com/pineapple/blind_men_elephant.html) is a great one, and many on this board would do well to remember it.

I fear that too much is being made of too little by some of you. Look at the whole elephant.

[Richie]

Thats the point. They are not comparable.

You can eat an orange, or you can use a rock to hunt. And actually it's a simile, not a metaphor.

[Chang Style Novice]

Yeah, but my point is that one (the orange) has diverse uses and can grow to be something more than itself. The other lacks these virtues - it is hard, but dead. Seen that way, which one describes wushu and which one describes kung fu?

Anyway, you said

"Kung fu is a rock and wushu is an orange." which IS a metaphor. A simile would be "Kung fu is like a rock and wushu is like an orange."

Now back off:D ! I won't just mess you up in a spelling bee, I'll mess you up on grammar and usage, too!

GRRRR!:p

[Richie]

If you didn't understand what I meant, I will try to help you. My point was that wushu and Kung fu can't be compared. I didn't want to say apples and oranges, because they are too similar. I compared a rock with an orange, because there isn't many similarities between them.


My grammar and usage in this forum isn't important. The important thing is if other people can understand. I can use formal, informal, slang, or shorthand. However, if you think your grammar and usage is better, you are mistaken. I'm an English teacher and I teach grammar. I can write formal English if you would like. However, formal English is annoying to read.

[Chang Style Novice]

My point is they can be compared. In fact, this thread is almost nothing but comparisons of wushu and gongfu. Anything can be compared, although not always to useful effect. How is a toenail clipping like or unlike a breath of air? I'm sure you can come up with something.

Anyway, I don't mean to pick a fight, but an english teacher should know the difference between metaphors and similes. Hell, I'm an art student, and I know!

Okay, I'm done teasing you now. Go back to your debate. I really don't have a dog in this fight.

PS - That last sentence was a metaphor, because it implicitly compared the arguments being made to fighting dogs. If the comparison was explicit, as in "the arguments made are like fighting dogs" it would be a simile.

PPS - Now I'm really done teasing, and I apologize for being such a snippy little dingleberry.

[Ky-Fi]

Originally posted by Richie
.....I compared a rock with an orange, because there isn't many similarities between them.

......However, if you think your grammar and usage is better, you are mistaken. I'm an English teacher and I teach grammar.

Classic.

[Chang Style Novice]

nice catch, Ky-Fi! Maybe in Japan they don't sweat number agreement.

[Daredevil]

Contemporary wushu vs kung fu is an annoying argument, because of the confusion in the terminology. I'm with the guys who don't care much for wushu -- sure, it looks flashy and like someone said makes good movies.

I'm not at all annoyed by it, but neither am I particularly interested in it. However, when the contemporary wushu guys try to come of as martial artists, I do find it a bit annoying. Just like any lie being spread.

I usually try not to get dragged into these arguments because the terminilogy is not clear for all the people. For example, my teacher is chinese so he calls all chinese martial arts wushu. When he says kung fu, he means skill, that's what you get out of your practise. It's not what we should call our martial arts. But .. since it's usage is so widespread here in the west, we're all used to calling chinese martial arts "kung fu".

[Richie]

I don't check my grammar when I write in this forum.

That's very ironic Ky-Fi. You pointed out my mistake, but you didn't check yourself. Your sentence (Classic.) is not a complete sentence. If you had typed "That's classic." , you would be more correct.

[Chang Style Novice]

...or as Lisa Simpson said to Parso the Grammar Robot:

"Sentence Fragment" is also a sentence fragment!

[Ky-Fi]

Originally posted by Richie
I don't check my grammar when I write in this forum.

That's very ironic Ky-Fi. You pointed out my mistake, but you didn't check yourself. Your sentence (Classic.) is not a complete sentence. If you had typed "That's classic." , you would be more correct.

That's your story, Jimbob.

[Chang Style Novice]

I am the Grand Ultimate Offtopic Digressor! I turned wushu vs. kungfu into squabbling over writing styles!

It's been far too long since I derailed a conversation into Dark Matter theory, or some other non-MA subject.

It feels good to be back, Ahtellyewhut.

[GLW]

"Thats fine and good that you are a judge, but most of the judges should be judging at all. I know some guys who are good as hell but they dont compete in America. I asked why and they said " These guys are not qualified to judge me". I look at some of the judges and he was right. You may be one of these clowns. The USAWKF is a joke. You guys fight over dumb stuff and the tournament are poorly run and poorly JUDGED. "

Been to San Diego or an event run by Jeff Bolt...I do NOT mean those run by Anthony Goh. Goh has constantly been guilty of running poor events....he refuses to take advice from those of us who KNOW how to get things moving.

However, WHY is USAWKF a joke. You make tons of allegations and blast out opinions but give NOT ONE thing to support them.

I agree that at MOST events, the judges are often NOT qualified to judge. One of the items I have been working on fro a LONG time with Jeff Bolt has been on JUDGES TRAINING and CERTIFICATION. To this end, we have actually started posting the raw scores on USAWKF events....2 years now on the nationals. This includes the judge's names, their scores...so we can track and figure out which judges are full of it and which ones do a good job. This takes time...but it does work.

What are YOU doing?

"I dont know much about Northern, well I do Northern. Do you know my Si Gung or Si Tai Gung? If you dont know them, you dont know anything about Northern. "

You did NOT list them. Without listing things...I prefer NOT to list my teachers and such...what I say does NOT hinge upon them but....here goes...

Northern - Yang Jwing Ming, Jeff Bolt...and Formal student of Grandmaster Wang Jurong and Dr. Wu Chengde...the daughter and son-in-law of Grandmaster Wang Ziping.

Wing Chun...no consequence...that was years ago...

"Wait a minute. Who are you GLW? Anyone can say they are judges. Why don't you let me look you up?"

Why is because I LIKE my privacy and I prefer to let my words stand on their own.

If you have been to a USAWKF event or any of Jeff Bolt's events...or are active in the Texas area...likely you look at my initials and you KNOW who I am. If not, names would mean nothing to you. Why are they important to you anyway....

You seem a bit hot on this....accusatory....why so much involved on a person who has disagreed with you...and why are you so concerned with trying to dispute the person rather than the ideas...?

What would YOU say is the way to judge forms for a northern practitioner? How would you do it...?

Try going to WWW.USAWKF.COM (not ORG) and taking a look at the rule book on what is looked at for traditional judging...

then give me YOUR take...if you have a good idea, I can almost guarantee it can get included....we ARE trying to make things better....ARE YOU?

[qguy]

Though wushu doesn't concentrate on application and techniques, i think that a wu shu practitioner would have the physical freedom to transition into "traditional" martial art. I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss their abilities.

[qguy]

i beleive the debate is over wu shu and wu gong. kung fu is a general term refering to just about anything that takes alot of work.

just a comment about syntax.