Gun play a martial art?

[Richie]

I feel that gun fighting is a martial art. It has to do with war and it takes a high level of skill. It was like two samurai squaring off (a gun fight), and the fastest and most accurate won. What do you guys think?

[Metal Fist]

Yes,gun fighting is a martial art. I say this in the context of self-defense or in time of war, not the daily Urban Gansta', hold the gun sideways, spray and pry method. A person who can remain as calm as possible in a gun fight situation and take deliberate aim at an opponent wil have a better chance of killing the opponent and surviving the deadly confrontation.:D :cool:

[shaolinboxer]

If you can get a copy, read Bill Jordan's "No Second Place Winner".

It's a short book written by a guy who served on the border patrol between the US and Mexico during prohibition. His writing is full of gunslinger vernacular and he spices up the book with a few of his adventures (at the suggestion of his publisher).

The book has some dated material (for example, he cites the double action revolver as a superior tool for law enforcement, and the problems he has with automatics are generally considered to be solved), but it goes through a detail of how to quick draw.

Bill Jordan could shoot asprin tablets out of the air (at 5 yards).

As he says, in a gun fight there is no second place winner.

[Chang Style Novice]

I'm not even convinced most martial arts are really arts (ie; creative expressions of abstract ideas into artifacts or performances intended to communicate with an audience.)

But then I'm a painter, so I have a goatee-stroking, black-turtleneck-wearing, clove-cigarette-smoking, red-wine-sipping view of what constitutes art. Some people prefer the terms 'martial science' or 'martial practice.' I think these are more accurate for most self defense/combat oriented systems, and I think gunplay is perhaps the ultimate example of this category.

Then again, I've gained a lot of insight and creativity from my own practice of taijiquan, so perhaps I'm talking out the wrong end of my digestive tract again.

[shaolinboxer]

"creative expressions of abstract ideas into artifacts or performances intended to communicate with an audience"

That sounds like martial arts to me.

Creative expressions: style
abstract ideas: methods of physical, psychological communication
artifacts or performances: techniques or lessons/demos
communication: teaching, training
audience: students

[Chang Style Novice]

Shaolinboxer - you have bitten my bait! Prepare to be trolled! Grrrrr!

Okay, seriously. I'm coming at this from a fine arts perspective, obviously, so let me try and explain what I think the distinction between the fine arts and martial arts are. I think the way you broke down my definition as it applies to say, Muay Thai, Gongfu, Folk Wrestling, etc. is pretty close to reality, but just askew enough to warp the definition.

The thing about fine arts like painting, dance, poetry, and so forth is that their primary purpose is the communication of abstract ideas that I mentioned before, and sufficient variety in technique exists or can be invented that ANY abstract idea may be communicated in ANY fine art (although certain arts are difficult - you may have heard that writing about music is like dancing about architecture.)

In other words, the art exists without a 'practical' purpose. A canvass is designed to hold paint, not to provide shelter. The movements of a ballet dancer are intended to tell a story and delight the eye, not to dig a well or tune a car.

Martial arts (or practices, or sciences, or whatever) have a practical intent at their core; knock em down, choke em out, break the arm. Or for training routines and forms; punch harder, kick higher, improve balance, become stronger or faster or more flexible. They lack the ability to communicate diverse meanings. There are no Choy Li Fut routines about a love triangle, or a white-whale obsessed captain, and so on. The very idea is ludicrous, actually. But a novel, play, song, etc. would have no trouble communicating these ideas.

Am I becoming clearer yet? Can I stop whipping this poor donkey cadaver?

[tsunami surfer]

So Chang style would the presentation pistols made by Col Colt fall under your definition of fine art?What about a finely crafted and tuned barretta shotgun worth thousands of dollars. Or the finely crafted handguns built for competition and combat. lets talk about the holsters that carry these fine works of art. Some of the best leather work I have ever seen were on some of the cowboy shooters Ive seen at shooting competitions. Artistry in weapons is some of the most bueitiful work Ive ever seen. Whether it is swords armor CMA weapons rifles pistols and knives it is functional art. The weilding of these weapons also becomes art. Artistry in form/Artistry in motion!

[Chang Style Novice]

Tsunami surfer -

I would not consider your examples to be gun play. Gun play or other weapons play would be swinging swords, shooting pistols, and like that. Perhaps shooting tricks or something similar could be considered a fine art in some circumstances, although I can't easily picture the depth of meaning I associate with fine arts in a shooting trick. I would consider them to be examples of fine craftsmanship, or perhaps sculpture with an unusual medium (especially ornately carved blades, guns, etc.) The USE of these weapons does not depend on their aesthetic qualities but on their engineering properties - both may be exquisite, but they aren't the same.

I'm kind of halving and quartering hairs here, I admit, but these distinctions are important to me. To others, less so. No big deal as far as I can see.

I certainly don't disagree that weapon smiths are capable of making weapons that qualify as art. It is with the USE of the weapons (artistically crafted or not) that I have an issue.

[shaolinboxer]

The donkey is alive and well my friend.

Alright, so it seems you are trying to say fine arts exist in the abstract, allowing them to communciate an infinite range of ideas, while martial arts are founded in the practical, limiting their meaning.

Untrue I say!

Are not the fine arts derived from the very practical need to communicate the common human experience? The idea of being in a love triangel may abstract, as may be being obsessed over a white whale, but the lessons we learn from them are very practical.

The fine arts themselves have a very practical function...they are sold to make money that supports your family and perpetuates the arts.

So looking again at say, a basic kata. Within that kata you can find many meanings, and many lessons. You can understand what the artist was trying to say. You can share in the common experience of the emotions and concepts it conveys. And you can use it to defend yourself, or sell it to support yourself.

As martial arts (budo) is meant to be applicable in every situation of daily life, how can you say it is limited?

If anything, it is the fine arts that are limited ;).

They only allow for one way communication. But martial arts is the art of the relationship. Give and take rather than just give.

Blah, blah.............

[Dark Knight]

Check out the IDPA for practial shooting/Self Defense competition
http://www.idpa.com

[Chang Style Novice]

Wow, excellent post, Shaolinboxer. Lots of food for thought. I'll respond in greater detail after I've given it a thorough mulling over. I definitely agree with this statement:

"...the fine arts derived from the very practical need to communicate the common human experience."

The rest I don't agree with so readily, especially this

"The fine arts themselves have a very practical function...they are sold to make money that supports your family and perpetuates the arts."

which seems to contradict the previous quote, but otherwise you make a strong case.

More to come.

[tsunami surfer]

Well Chang we must agree to disagree. I truly do love art but some of the stuff that is called art I would seriosly disagree with. I also must disagree with the motion part also. In some ways when warriors clash the movements can be as complex and graceful as a dance. The only difference is someone must lose. I wont get into abstract stuff because i would feel like a one legged man in an ass kicking contest.HEEHEE