Does your sifu hold back knowledge from you?

Does your sifu hold back knowledge from you?


In China, my sifu's sifu trained a student for years before electing to show real knowledge. Because the training was all for free, my sifu's sifu could do as he pleased. It was my kung fu style's family tradition to withhold principles from the students until they proved themselves in the sifu's eyes.

However, my sifu thought it was detrimental to the quality of his kung fu. He's observed how students of his sifu (including himself for a while) ended up getting the wrong impression of the style and even hurt themselves (especially in the knees and ankles) as a result. So he's been very careful to tell me why I must do things a certain way in order to avoid injury and misinterpretation.

Of course, there are things that I'm not ready for yet and so I'm not jumping the gun to do them. But whenever I ask a question, I get a totally straight answer.


How about you guys?

[truewrestler]

when we roll he holds back his knowledge to give me a chance :)

[EARTH DRAGON]

Hung kai vun some one who knows what its like! I learned kung fu from a very stingy taiwanese master. It took him 5 years of turning me down just to learn from him and not from one of his students however his student was very good I wanted to learn from the master. Any time he is asked a question his answer in broken english is always ........ "later later you learn that later" well later never came. many impatient students quit becuse of his selfishness, but I realized why his did the sorting out thing, acutally still sorting after 10 or 11 years of learning from him. He still will change things from time to time to weed out the right people and then teach them the right things. This cannot be understood by most americans but i do understand why he does what he does but one thing I have a problem with is that how do you know what to weed out and what to keep?

[Bak Mei]

I've been training with my first Chinese sifu for 10 or 11 months now. I was a little nervous going in (to Chinatown, one of only 2 non-asians) but my fears were quickly dispelled. Sifu Chan Bong is a nice man, veryv friendly. My impression is he gives you what you deserve. If you train, show that you are not just coming to class but taking it home and pondering how it works, well, then you are ready for more. I have enough material now to last me years to master, yet it keeps coming.

The thing that is most impressive (to me) is how his well never runs dry. He does not teach form (an easy way to string people along) and yet each class my mind is blown away. Not just a new twist to a strike, but the principles. Man, I really value being under this man's instruction.

Though, at the same time I could understand how some sifu are reluctant. My teacher will turn someone away if they come with the wrong attitude.


Funny, a caucasion came not long ago, and started asking all these questions about my sifu's lineage. The thing is, his lineage is impeccable, straight to Ba Gua's founder, learning from his disciple -- lived with him. Similiar with HSing-I, but of coarse a bit longer down the line due to the system's age. But the kid wouldn't know any of this if he told him anyone, the names would mean nothing, so me sifu asked, "Do you want to learn from me, or them" referring to his teachers.

The kid didn't know what to think I guess and became a bit arrogant. The boot. There are those who also show up once or twice and doen't come back. There will always be those.

[fa_jing]

According to the 7* master of our kwoon, who grew up in China and trained in the most traditional way, graduating at the top of his kung fu class and appearing in some HK KF movies, he said
that you always keep 2 techniques to yourself. This is so the student does not kill the master and take over the school.
Sounded rather serious.
Supposedly Yip Man kept alot of WC back so that his students wouldn't open a competing school down the street.
-FJ

[old jong]

Imagine 10 generations doig this: keeping a few techniques for themselves in case students get good enough to beat the "master". What the hell will be left to teach?

[Radhnoti]

The secretive mindset is the reason my old karate instructor gave as the main reason he felt the Japanese martial arts were superior to the Chinese. He felt Japanese masters were more interested in having their students improve. He said it was simply a difference in the cultures...
I'd never heard this from another source 'til now.

[shaolinboxer]

You never really know.

I wouldn't say the Japanese are any less secretive then the Chinese (in general).

My advice on getting secret techniques out of old masters is to get them drunk. I'm not kidding.

[Crimson Phoenix]

But what if you study something other than a drunken style? Does it still work?? ;)
Anyway about that "keeping techniques" thingie, I heard/read many good teachers, mine included saying that they will be a failure as a teacher if their serious students do not eventually best them (I frankly have hard times imagining that happening, but that's what they say :D )
All I know is that my bagua sifu knows HELLA stuffs, and each tim he amazes m with some new stuffs he pulls out...I came to realize that he is a well of knowledge, but very seldom exposes it. The good thing is that the day he reveals a little thing to you, it feels like you've been given a treasure, and it makes you want to train harder to have what's next...

[Ralek..]

i'm not a kung-fu basher or anything :),but this kind of thing is silly.if a teacher wants to turn away a potential student because he thinks the student is irresponsible or an evil person then thats fine.but, holding back so called "deadly" or "higher" level secrets sucks.if you want to learn to defend yourself in real-life situations in a resonable amount of time why would anyone choose kung-fu in today's society??The secretive mindset is something that obviously comes from Chinese culture but doesn't work in America in the year 2002!who the hell wants dedicate themselves to an art and have to constantly wonder "am I learning the real thing?".
there are plenty of kung-fu schools that openly carry the motto "no scerets" and I think that's great.im not going to wait 10 years to learn the "real" stuff so I can actually use it to defend my life or loved ones if i really need it.thats nonsense.

[old jong]

There are really no secret techniques. You only need to train hard and use your brain. All the techniques are in the various forms (whatever the style!) I read somewhere that Bruce Lee was keeping the double lap from his students!...It's in the third form Biu Gee!(wing chun)
I feel it is a stupid and paranoïd way to act and a teacher doing that deserve to lose all his students.We are in the 21th century and there is so much infos on the internet and video courses everywhere that someone is surely putting out what the other is trying to hide!
The old tradition of licking deep in the @$$ for what you already are paying for is getting very near it's end!...(I hope!)

[Kristoffer]

Don't think I have trained long enough to tell. I'll come back in another 10 years :D
Dont seem like it though.

[Bak Mei]

Crimson Phoenix, I know EXACTLY how you feel. Ralek, I agree with you 100% as well.

My sifu stresses that the point of his e-chuan, is that it would be added to and refined by his students that truly understand the art in the first place. He has modified some of the Ba Gua he has learned to suit him, he is a smaller man by his own account, especially when compared to non-asians, same with his Hsing-I, looked to Taiji and Ba Gua and took out some unhealthy stuff that he saw. But he shows it all too us, saying, this is how I do it, but the "traditional" way is like this, just regarding foot position and stuff. He changed the first palm of circle walking to have the elbow down, more of a draw cut motion, utilizing more back and shhoulder. I have never learned it any other way, but its powerful, strong shape. It's the principle that counts, realising that keeping a strong shape for one motion is more important that 3 week motions or extending haphazardly.

[hunt1]

I can only comment on Wing Chun because that is all i know.I found this common among Wing Chun Sifu.The reasons are not important.The interesting thing is what one Sifu considers secret another will teach openly.I found this based on the 6 teachers I have had.Of course some also know more than others too.

As for Yip Man holding back.Many of his students did open schools .He did have a legitimate reason for holding back.His rice bowl was invaded.


Another side note some Sifu teach you more if you come from another less respected Sifu in the same system.As an example a famous WSL student had to start from the very beginning with WSL even though he had learned the entire system from Leung Ting.We are ll human and ego always plays a part.It can be a big help if you play it right.

[BeiKongHui]

The old tradition of licking deep in the @$$ for what you already are paying for is getting very near it's end!...(I hope!)

Of course there are well known lineages of Ving Tsun who claim that Biu Je, the dummy and weapons are "secrets" until you pay large extra sums of $ to become a special student. Soundz like a scam to me and a good reason why the quality of VT is currently so low.


As for Yip Man holding back.Many of his students did open schools .He did have a legitimate reason for holding back.His rice bowl was invaded.

Ving Tsun did not belong to Yip nor was his the only lineage or school in Hong Kong. Perhaps he should've worried less about the ol' rice bowl and more about consistency.

[shaolinboxer]

"his rice bowl was invaded"

Ha! I have never heard that expression before but it is so true.

One art that is plagued by the competition cycle is TKD (I say this because a very close friend of mine is an ITF 2nd dan and we've discussed it). It' is a common problem that 2nd and third dans leave their intructors, having learned all they can, and open competing schools (invading their former instructors rice bowls).

So...perhaps holding back a bit is not just for physical self defense (although starving is pretty physical).

[hunt1]

BeiKongHui you assume Yip Man really cared.From all accounts he taught because he had to not because he wanted too.

[BeiKongHui]

No, I don't assume anything nor did I even begin to claim Yip actually cared about most of his students because it's no secret that he didn't. However, the statement still stands.

[Bak Mei]

One thing about my teacher, and he says it outright, he is always upgrading. It ****es off some of the seniors, because I guess theyw ant to be done with it already -- I like it.

But he won't show what's on the drawing board now. His master told him, and he tells us, never teach anything until you have worked it for at least 3 years -- to find out if its healthy from an internal standpoint ... and works, real well.

I respect that. At 60's he's still not satisfied. He recently showed me a tape of himself 10 years ago. It was good, compared to similiar tapes I've seen of other very well respected Sifu, it was better. But, inside, I was thinking, man, this is terrible compared to what he has now. Before I trained with him I would have looked at that tape and thought I was looking at a very high level, a great sifu. Training with him now, seeing the latest and greatest, its amazing.

He remarked how he didn't like the tape either. If he asked, I would have said, "Sifu, your technique is so much better now." He knows how much I respect him, or at least hope so, and hope he would have taken it as one martial artists to another, seeing and admiring the progress of ten years.

I can only imagine what he''ll be showing me in ten years. I'm looking forward to an indeoth study of the sword as well. I walked in on him and his two disciples Tuesday playing with swords. No joke. These guys are great. They play with swords the way most chi sau. Real swords. Though in this case they were fencing swords, pointy (easily take an eye or pierce) but not sharp except the tip. I;'ve seen him defend against a real katana though at real speed.

The good ones aren't worried about their students, its family. Or their reputation. My master is worried we are not good enough, that his tradition is "rich and famous", and doesn't want any of us kooks ruining it. We can't learn fast enough.

[David Jamieson]

I agree that Kung Fu belongs to no one, not you or your teacher, yet it can be possessed. :D

But only by those willing to put in the time to acquire it.

There are plenty of reasons why a teacher will not give a technique until the time is right. For one thing, your tendons, flexibility and strength needs to be developed before some techniques can be done without causing injury.

This, I wholly agree with. Walk before running so to speak.

Teachers who hold back out of a lack of trust, well, that's entirely up to them if that is what they want to do, then that is what they want to do.

Some people just simply don't deserve to have the time invested in them because of their own inability to understand or their unwillingness to practice.

If a teacher has to show someone the same tech again and again and again because the student does not practice, then that student doesn't deserve to move deeper and the teacher doesn't need to suffer the idiocy of the student. This is a major problem in many schools and I have had the displeasure to witness this myself. Usually, these students will fall away like the chaff of wheat because they do not have the consternation to open themselves to the lessons and to truly practice with all their heart and focus.

Also, remember that teachers are only human and have their own fears and personality defects as each of us do. Some teachers just don't like some students and withold information from them on that basis. Some students don't like their teachers and eventually leave them to find a new teacher that they are more compatible with.

Some teachers do get outstripped by their students and some students will never go beyond their teachers. This is really not that important overall. The real importance lies in the perpetuation of the art.

How long does it take to know who you will be open with as a teacher? 1 year? 2 years? 5 years? 10 years? How long before you're certain that you have a good student?

You can never be certain because people change. People change their whole life in the measure of a single day. Character changes in the space of one experience that could measure only a few minutes. That is life.

If you want an art to survive in fullness, then it is necessary to give it in wholeness and without reservation. If you take a student, then that should be enough to start them in their absorption of what you have to give. If you don't want to teach a student, then reject them from the get go and send them somewhere else.

peace

[Syre]

Who's the stingy taiwanese master you are talking about? Is it Master Shyun?

I am still wondering whether there are alternative sources of 8-step knowledge in the USA. I would hate to run up against a wall after 5 years of training.

[joedoe]

My sifu told me that he pushes us to reach higher and higher levels of kung fu, and at the same time that pushes him to do the same, so that he can explain to us what we are experiencing because he has experienced it himself. He also told me he doesn't teach a technique to someone unless he knows how to counter it :).

[Richie]

Well, after I did Bai si, it seemed like my teachers openned a lot. I think it is more on trust then anything else. Thats why there are general students and close door students.

[GLW]

My teachers start out offering everything to every student.

Should the student prove to be of poor character, the teacher's time begins to be less and less for technique and more and more directed for that student at changing their character.

If they change, they continue....but usually, the requirement to change ones mind set ends up with them leaving on their own.

The things beyond the basics are taught as you grasp the ideas and as you show your personality.

I have heard my teachers tell an entire class the key movements in a routine...or how to use it, or any number of other 'secrets' in plain English and in Chinese.... and then watched as very exlpicit corrections were made...only to see the same mistakes and same questions be gone over again and again. To ears and eyes that are closed, nothing matters.

The teaching is very Confucian...For the student that you give one corner..and he gives you back one corner, do not waste your time...For the student that you give one corner and he deduces the square, ...teach this student.

This is the way of many teachers....so if you are not getting this...is it being withheld or is it that you have not shown yourself to be Chong Ming....clever..... Some DO hold back...some don't

One thing that I've learned from having teachers hold stuff from me in the past is how to "steal stuff" from them.

By this, I mean focusing intensely whenever they say or demonstrate anything since they probably won't show it again. A true master of martial arts cannot hide the essence of his art for long.

When I was in kwoons, I ****ed off seniors this way. They felt my eyes on them at all times, and I advanced quickly and smoothly. Whenever my teachers were to demonstrate their art, I'd always somehow end up the one being demonstrated on.


I'd be thrilled if my students grew up quickly under me and went to open their own schools.

As a teacher, I want my students to be at least as good as I am. I would not want somebody to see lame kung fu in one of my senior students and have them say "Look at Huang's student, obviously Huang can't teach".

If I were a student seeking to study at one of those schools, I'd eventually want to seek out the grandmaster and train directly under him. And the grandmaster would be ME.

The competition among schools would actually raise the standard of the kung fu and teaching practices. I'd do my best to fan friendly rivalries between the schools - and then have them all fight it out in a fair contest.

I would love nothing more to have this huge federation of people practicing my styles - with me at the VERY TOP because likely nobody else in this country does my style.

[TenTigers]

I'm willing to bet that some of my former students claim I held back technique. This is for two reasons. The way I teach, the technique, concepts, etc change as I grow, and develop, and refine my Gung-Fu-hopefully this will be a constant!;-)
Secondly, I teach in layers. I might teach a form to a beginner, only later to add a concept, which changes not only that particular form, but all preceding forms. Later still, another concept is added, again changing everything. So a student might compare the same form, and see things that they were never taught,worse, leave before learning any of the more advanced concepts and misjudging the teaching due to their own lack of patience, time and effort (Gung-Fu)
Okay, there is a third reason: sometimes a student feels that they are being held back because THEY want to be taught a certain way, or certain techniques. I won't get on my soapbox here, they basically know where the door is. Has anyone experienced this?

[dezhen2001]

some very good points on this thread. i really don't have much experience of this personally, as i've only been training a short time in CMA.

One thing i have noticed is that if people say the techniques have been 'held back' etc. - these are usually people who have had a disagreement or falling out with their teacher. The students who continue to train are content and deepen their skill...

Also maybe the technique is not held back, you just don't 'see' it yet. This has happened to me lots of times in chi sau for example. One of my Sihing has trained around 6 months longer than me, and the things he 'sees' during a demonstration of technique are sometimes not the same as what i see. Soi think the understanding of some skill or technique depends on your understanding so far...

As Bak Mei says, there is a world of difference between my Sifu and even my Sigong compared to videos i have seen of 10 years ago! As your experience and understanding grows, it will change the way you do things. Some people have studied with my teacher and left after a short time, thinking they have mastered some skill, but it is always changing and developing...i can't wait to see what will happen in the future!

thanks,
david :)