Any San Shou Questions?

[SanShou Guru]

I'm bored so I figured I would post this again.

Anybody have any questions about US San Shou? Who's who, schools, rules, styles, history and such.

[Bak Mei]

I live on Long ISland but train in NYC. I have studied Isshin-Ryu for a long time, Hung Gar, Wing Chun and S. Mantis. Now training in the internal. I'm interested in getting involved ina group other than Wing Chun that fights regularly.

I may be wrong, I'm getting the impression that San Shau is a kind of all go fighting, striking, take downs, ect. Is this the case. I'll be traveling a lot from now till late March, but am interested if this is the case. Anything like that going on in NYC?

If so, its a great thing. I try to fight as often as possible now, but its becoming stale. Same people or styles all the time, too predictable. I want something 100% new, fresh, a different look.

I'm 100% into training, no ego involved. A loss is a loss (chance to learn) and a win is a win (chance to learn from what worked and what could have worked better). That's my aproach to fighting, knock them down help them up let's get lunch.

Anyway, have a good one.
Ray

[MonkeySlap Too]

In your experience, what training methods have produced the best results for Lei Tai fighting?

Your answer can be style specific or non-style specific. I am just curious about what you have observed to work well in terms of attributes, ring strategty, endurance, winning techniques and how they are trained, etc.

Whatever you feel is worth commenting on from the above.

[SanShou Guru]

Bek Mai

I would say go here (http://www.angelfire.com/ny/sanshou/index.html) :

New York Kung-Fu and Kickboxing
43 W. 24th Street (3rd floor), NYC 10010
Phone (212) 242-2453

They are the only full time San Shou in NY right now.

Yee's Hung Gar also trains San Shou but from a more traditional angle and spar less I believe, but they have some good stuff.

Li Tai Liang (former Beijing team coach) runs a small program also.

[MightyB]

1) What gloves and gear do you need in most San Shou matches?

2) Vinyl dipped or leather?

3) Round Time?

4) Pants or Shorts?

[SanShou Guru]

Monkey Slap,

Training that works best is to focus on your strengths but not to neglect your weaknesses.

If you are good a wrestling then get really good at it and incorporate it into your fighting as the main element i.e. hands and feet set up throws.

If you have good hands then focus on close fighting and short sharp wrestling skills.

Good Feet fight at a longer range, work catches and root out when in a clench.

Conditioning is a MAJOR factor. San Shou taxes the whole body more than other stand up styles because you cannot rest in a clench and on a Lei Tai you are forced to engage more.

Focus on clean throws, catches, a foot ball tackle takedown uses a ton of energy and is worth as many points as a jab so stay on your feet.

For Full contact you need to land HARD shots to score. A bomb that misses is as useless as a tap that lands.

Spar with as many people as you can at as high a level as you can take. Use pads and Headgear. All the top schools do it, you can fight harder longer and come back the next day for more. Nothing will hamper your training more than injury. Even a mild bone bruise on your shin and give you an instant dead leg if you hit it again. Our informal rule is Hands 80% and Legs 60% depending on weight and skill.

DRILL DRILL DRILL.
We try to do:
25 rounds sparring for 1 round in the ring
5 rounds on pads or drills for 1 round sparring
3 rounds conditioning for 1 round drills

Make sense? Want more?

[SanShou Guru]

Mighty B,

Leather boxing competition fight gloves.
Pro in the ring 8 or 10 oz. Amateur Lai Tai 14 oz.

Shorts required

Rounds are 2 min straight time in the ring, 2 min stop time on the Lei Tai (clock stops at every break by the ref. I've seen rounds that are 8 min plus if you get two wrestlers).

[Bak Mei]

25 rounds sparring for 1 round in the ring
5 rounds on pads or drills for 1 round sparring
3 rounds conditioning for 1 round drills

**** that's a work out! Thanks for the info, I;'m sure I'll ask for it again when I'm settled down in April. Thanks. Glad to know its close.

[Cipher]

SanShou Guru,
I was just about to post a big thread on San Shou. I live next to louisville KY. in Indiana. I Have trainned mostly in Wing Chun along with boxing, Thai Boxing, some Akido and Jiu Justu (Sorry about the spelling) I would love to get involved with San Shou at the amature level, I would also like to go to some fights and just watch it.

I could go to Cincinati, Louisville, and Indianapolis to view or participate in fights. I just don't know how you can get involved without having an official San Shou Gym to work out at and how to sign up for fights. I work full time so I would have to fight in the basic beginer type fights, it could not be a profession for me. I have though about going to Terry Middletons here were I live, they do Kickboxing, Boxing and Jiu Jitsu. But I really want to stick with the Kung Fu type fighting. I know it is similar when you get in the ring and start fighting but the training and Culture is so different and that's what I like.

If you have any links to sites that I can find this out for my area, or any first hand advice I would appreciate it. I have done searches on the internet but can not find too much stuff. Thanks.

[MonkeySlap Too]

Hey, I appreciate the post, although I was really looking for specific training methods that you feel produce good results in the ring.

[SanShou Guru]

Cipher,

Scott Shelly, runs a gym in Ohio (I'll need to look up the location for you). He is the only Major San Shou school near you (one of the "big six") that I know of. I'll see what I can find out if you want. if you want ot see some clips you should check out the clips on www.marvinperry.org .


Monkey Slap,

more detail is hard because we have about 250+ differnt drills (hands, feet, wrestling, counters, etc.) that we will do over the course of training. They focus on differnt skills and fighter types as well as opponent types. We may produce a training book and/or video soon so if/when that happens you will be good to go.

The most important skill in San Shou is a good root. You will hit harder and be harder to throw.

[wisdom mind]

www.blacktaoist.com

the bros of wu are hosting a fullcontact seminar in NYC on Jan 18, this is the perfect opportunity to mix it up with a variety of levels of fighter from different styles



yi wu of tha yin fu crew

[Cipher]

Originally posted by SanShou Guru
Cipher,

Scott Shelly, runs a gym in Ohio (I'll need to look up the location for you). He is the only Major San Shou school near you (one of the "big six") that I know of. I'll see what I can find out if you want. if you want ot see some clips you should check out the clips on www.marvinperry.org .

Thanks a lot. I would appreciate any info. It would be fun make a weekend trip and go see some fights.

[ShaolinTiger00]

Scott's Kickboxing gym (Iron Tigers) is in
Bellefontaine, Ohio. sorry forgot the number.

;)

Any talk about san shou makes me :D

Peace to all.

[CanadianBadAss]

Hey San shou Guru, I'm thinking of entering the San shou competition at this event http://www.mantiskungfu.com/tiger2002.html .

But I don't really have any "san shou" experience... And the style i study(Ving tsun) doesn't really have any throws in it, and i hear that makes up alot of the san shou fighting... So I'm not sure if this is a good idea or not, but either way I'll enter, don't mind getting my ass kicked.

[Xebsball]

Hey, im no guru like SanShou Guru but i dont think its a good idea to fight in that tournament if you dont know any throwing and stuff...

[SanShou Guru]

Thanks ST.

CanadianBA,

That tournament should be a safe start. Not many killers in Canada.


Wisdom mind,

TBT seminar will be more street fighting oriented as opposed to touranment fighting since they are not tournament fighters. May be worth a look to see what's out there but not a group to train with if you want to fight in the ring.

[SanShou Guru]

Xebsball,

Unlike the main San Shou style in Brazil witch has a huge emphasis on throws (Eduardo Fujihira and company) Most north American fighters do not go for as many throws but fight a more interactive style. With the gear and likely skill level if CBA is in shape they should do ok.

[SanShou Guru]

Hey ST did you go to Mike Berry and Jullio Trujillo's tournament they had a few weeks ago? If so how was it?

[lkfmdc]

We didn't go but people who went told me it was a great event for up and comers, perhaps some of the champions of tomorrow got their first taste there?

San Shou is growing, no doubt

[SanShou Guru]

Yea, I talked to Jullio and he said they were happy. Small but a good start. i was hoping to get another perspective. We would have gone but they told us late.

[lkfmdc]

two guys from the kickboxing forum at www.mixedmartialarts.com went, one won his division, other guy had fun but got thrown around a lot :)

It was sort of short notice for us as well, we are setting sights on April and Nick Scrima's next event...

[Archangel]

Have any of your guys fought in Kuoshu, If so how have they done.

[ShaolinTiger00]

SG,

I was out of the country for almost 2 months (Cuba)and just returned from Key West. (what the hell am I doing back in DC?)

I was aware of Mike and Jullio's small event but haven't been able to talk with anybody about it yet. I need to call up Mike and take he and his wife out to dinner to catch up on the latest from our families.

Mike is just a top notch guy. Huge place in my heart for the guy I call my sifu. btw its M. Barry (not a fruit!)

I'm continuing to work on my walking and running and I plan on training muay tai (w/Mike Moses) soon to get my skills back up to shape. I'm going to get back on the leitai soon!! I just wish I was closer to the other sanshou guys in MD. We're pretty far apart now. (Mike n Gary in so. MD, Jullio, Dan, Aaron in Balt.)
Richard Pritchett??

[Ralek]

I didn't know you were posting Shaoling Tiger. Do you want to fight again? We can fight on January the 11th if you want to. January the 12th i will be fighting JF springer.

If anyone else in Maryland wants to fight just make a post and i will see it.

[lkfmdc]

Mike Altman, a veteran of the San Shou circuit, former B team member and now a trainer of one of the big six US san Shou teams fought in Kuoshu several times and cleaned up. In general you will find the level lower in Kuoshu (though Mike would do well in any event, he is good). Some think that is why they avoid letting many fighters in. Cung Le tried to fight there and was given the run around, so have we. Sanshouguru, has Boston ever tried?

[Cipher]

Originally posted by Ralek
I didn't know you were posting Shaoling Tiger. Do you want to fight again? We can fight on January the 11th if you want to. January the 12th i will be fighting JF springer.

If anyone else in Maryland wants to fight just make a post and i will see it.

I hope no one takes the bait. This is a good thread lets try not to fill it full of Ralekisms. I wish some one would kick his @ss and film it so he will shut up.

[Ralek]

Cipher. It's not bait. It's just an invitation to fight if he wants to. I want to fight as many people as I can.

You will get to see me fight if JF springer brings a camera. JF springer has over 20 years (i think) of praying mantis kung fu training. This will be fun.

[Ka]

Don't suppose you know anyone training in Australia,Any one with any contacts in Sydney at all. Thanks :)

[Cipher]

Originally posted by Ralek
Cipher. It's not bait. It's just an invitation to fight if he wants to. I want to fight as many people as I can.

You will get to see me fight if JF springer brings a camera. JF springer has over 20 years (i think) of praying mantis kung fu training. This will be fun.

Were are you located? Is it close to Indiana I would like to watch too. If you really want to prove yourself them make sure there is a camera there to capture the moment, don't rely on someone else, unless your trying to copout that is.

[Mutant]

hey Guru,

:confused: do your fighters have a certain diet? how about right before a fight?

:confused: do your fighters fight with hard contact right up until a fight or back off and do bag and cardio work to avoid getting injuries right before competion?

:confused: do all your fighters do weight training? do you think its nessesary to be competitive?

:confused: will they 'fast' right before a fight to get into lower weight kg catagory at weigh in the night before? or does that still lower your performance the next day?

:confused: does your school have a certain core team of fighters who are preselected to fight or can anyone fight? do you decide who goes on the lei tei when the fighters are closely matched and same weight class or can the compete in the same event?

:confused: do you think the hand wraps hinder dexterity for certain throws or grappling? can you get away without it? do you think it adds to striking power if you train to keep your wrists locked anyway?

:confused: is it legal to lean on/drive into your opponent with your elbow(s) if you come out on top after a take down?

sorry for the barrage of questions....thanks for any answers or advice! :)

~mutant

[Xebsball]

Allow me to invade the thread again altough i dont train San Shou...

Down here Kuoshu and Sanshou are exactly the same level since the training is also the same.

In USA i belive your guys couldnt fight maybe becouse you are pro or semi-pro training almost full time and it seems that Kuoshu is at amateur level mostly.


As a side note sorta thing just a few months ago my teacher went to a tournament that had Kuoshu fighting.
One of our guys couldnt fight since there was no one at his weight division. Other hurt his foot in the beggining of the fight and had to stop
In 2000 we had lots of fighters, then for some reasons the Lei Tai training was stopped, now its coming back up.

They watched the whole thing and told us how it went, lots of KO´s. One from a high slam, kick to the face when oponent shoot for double leg, roundhouse to face... They said it was pretty bloody.

This year we will have a tournament in my city that happens every 2 years on the "Grape Fest" (Festa da Uva) wich is like a festival thing that have cars show, music (typical italian and contemporary), lots of stands with stuff for sale (whine, clothes and many other stuff).

What ive heard from 2000 one is that guys from a local BJJ/MMA place entered the tournament and together with them was this fake Wing Chun guy (a real fake no doubt). They only won in one division, that is the one wich the only fighters were theirs :)

[Vman]

Guru...got some questions for ya.

1) Where can I locate a schedule for the 2002 sanshou events/qualifiers.

2) Is there a event in which a competitor can qualify for the U.S national team? If this is so can a unranked fighter <like myself> join the event and fight. If this option is not available what tournaments would one have to enter and place in order to fight in the national qualifier.

3) I have read the rules and knees/elbows are not allowed. Is a forearm check/smash considered a elbow shot? ie: The forearm movement is similar in motion to hitting the wooden dummy from the top/bottom/sides.

Secondly, when the opponent shoots for a takedown would doing a leg check <picking up the leg to check a roundhouse kick> be considered a knee? Would a kick of any form as the opponet shoots in for a takedown be legal ie: opponent goes for firemans carry.....the opposing fighter retaliates with a front snap/push kick or low roundhouse kick to the head/shoulder area.

4) What are the weight division breakdowns?

5) I have seen the bodygear used...are we allowed to use our own or is there a specific piece that we have to use.....same applies to head/hand/feet gear.


Thanks for your time.

Peace,
Vman :cool:

[lkfmdc]

1) Best place is probably sanshou.org though we must update the listings, of course, once there are events to list we can do that updating! San Shou season for 2002 has not gotten off the ground quite yet

2) Anyone can fight in the team trials but the chances an unranked fighter will be chosen is very low. There are 10 weight classes and only 5 fighters are sent. First preference goes to national champions, those who have beaten national champions, silver medalists, other title holders, etc

3) Anything other than a strike with the glove is a foul. However, unlike kickboxing, you CAN hit with the bottom of the glove most of the time

It is subjective, but usually anything thought to be a knee is penalized

4) more or less
over 90 kg
90 kg
85 kg
80 kg
75 kg
70 kg
65 kg
60 kg
under 60 kg is rare in US, but of course huge in Asia :)

5) US events encourage you to have your own gear. International events REQUIRE you use the supplied gear; headgear, chest gear, shin guards, gloves. YOu supply mouth piece and cup of course

[SanShou Guru]

Vman,

Ikfmdc has it right.

Knees may be added soon but until then if they think you did an illegal strike deliberately then you get a penalty.

[SanShou Guru]

Mutant,


Q: do your fighters have a certain diet? how about right before a fight?

A: depends on the fighter and where their weight is. For training we suggest ample carbs for fuel and Protein for muscle growth and recovery. Multivitamins/minerals for recovery. No Smoking ever, and no drinking for a month before a major event.


Q: do your fighters fight with hard contact right up until a fight or back off and do bag and cardio work to avoid getting injuries right before competition?

A: We back off the week before an event to avoid/minimize simple injuries and focus more on specific skills and counters.


Q: do all your fighters do weight training? do you think its necessary to be competitive?

A: Most all of them do and it is necessary for San Shou because you need complete body strength for the wrestling.


Q: will they 'fast' right before a fight to get into lower weight kg category at weigh in the night before? or does that still lower your performance the next day?

A: It depends on the fighter and how close they are. We try to have our fighters "walking around" weight within a few pounds of their fight weight. If you lose too much weight too close to an event it can leave you weak.


Q: does your school have a certain core team of fighters who are preselected to fight or can anyone fight? do you decide who goes on the lei tai when the fighters are closely matched and same weight class or can the compete in the same event?

A: Any of our students who want to fight and we think they are safe enough and good enough not to get killed can fight in a tournament. We are more selective with fighters that fight in "Carded" preset fights.


Q: do you think the hand wraps hinder dexterity for certain throws or grappling? can you get away without it? do you think it adds to striking power if you train to keep your wrists locked anyway?

A: I have found little problem with hand wraps for wrestling/throws. You can get away without them but when you start to hit really hard you knuckles will get sore without wraps and the wrist stability is great for blocking hard round kicks.


Q: is it legal to lean on/drive into your opponent with your elbow(s) if you come out on top after a take down?

A: depends on how you do it and how the judges perceive you intent. If they think you are trying to cause excessive injury by questionable means then you could get penalized.

[Cipher]

Hey, one more question here for anyone who can help. If I have thought about if worse comes to wrose going to a local kickboxing gym to get ring fighting practice and then also try some of the other Jiu Jitsu and Judo classes that they offer, but also most important to me is I will stay with my Sifu I have now and train in Wing Chun, we also do some Thai boxing, Jiu Jitsu and Aikido. What I am wondering is when you try to fight in a San Shou/Kung Fu tourney or match do you have to have very specific credentials or will the fact that you train in Kung Fu do the job? Thanks for any advice.

[SanShou Guru]

Cipher,

As long as you have a pulse for most of them.

[MightyB]

A local sporting goods store sells "gel wraps" from TKO gear in their boxing equipment area as an alternative to traditional hand wraps. These gel wraps are basically a lightly padded glove wrist brace combiniation. Would they be sufficient as a replacement for traditional hand wraps?

[SanShou Guru]

MightyB,

As long as you hands don't hurt when you fight you should be go to go. If you fight in the ring they will most likely not allow you to use anything but Gauze and Tape.

[MightyB]

So the wraps that you buy aren't really allowed? (I'm talking about the wraps you see from Ringside, Martial Art Mart, and Century).

Oh yeah, Thanks for the quick replies and good information. This has turned out to be one of the best threads that I've seen on this forum :)

[lkfmdc]

Tournament style in the US and Canada is open to anyone and everyone. In the past, fighters with no experience and probably very little training often found themselves fighting Marvin Perry and Cung Le :( Today the situation is getting better as we are starting to offer C class/novice class competition so the big boys don't trounce the newbies

"carded" events can be good if the match maker puts two guys of the same experience and background together. Two zero fights guys can fight eachother, if they are both trained properly of course, but many matchmakers are wary of people who do not come from established contact programs

[Cipher]

Do most of these Tournament's have some sort of pre fight approval to determine what class or group you should fight in? And once you start fighting do they just look at your past record? I guess the main question is will they have pre fight to determine who will acualy fight? Thanks.

[lkfmdc]

In the US, you sign yourself up for whatever division you want to fight in. If you want to fight A class, that's your call. Currently, in A class we do try and match up in the first round so that killers aren't with the normal guys, but after the first round, it IS A class and that's the game

[ShaolinTiger00]

I was once one of these rookies in both Cung and Marvin's weight divisions (along with some other monsters). I'll never forget seeing Cung break a guys jawbone with a scissor kick that was a little too high. (the guy had no guard. his hands were at his sides after Cung had stunned him for the setup). The rest us us were in awe... i think I lost my next match and maybe that was a good thing.


btw Hi David!

[Ford Prefect]

Any fights coming up in the area?

[lkfmdc]

The "good old days" when things were run like crap :( I had a rookie find himself facing Cung Le in his first San Shou fight ever and Cung Le was already a pro at that time. My guy got a huge gash over his eye and the officials expected my other fighter to step up and fight as they were wheeling his team mate off on a stretcher to the hospitol... not much organization. Fortunately the athletes and coaches have taken more control of the sport and the organizations have responded to us, (with a few noticeable exceptions)

Hello right back at ya... how was the holidays for you?

[Cipher]

Any tips on how you should determine what class to sign up with? I don't want to get matched with a pro that will kick my butt the first round but I also don't want to fight someone who is under me and just simply run them over, a fair fight is better.

I checked out sanshou.org. That is a really cool site. I love all of the pictures on it. I mostly love the Japan pictures. I am planning on going to Japan some time this year.

[Vman]

Thanks for the info guys that clarifies stuff out for me. When will the 2002 schedule be up?

Peace,
Vman:cool:

[ShaolinTiger00]

San shou as an organization has come a long way in the last few years! My high school wrestling tournaments were more organized than several san shou tournys I've participated in. *cough*usawkf*cough*

David, My holidays were great, thanks for asking. My family and I spent Christmas with my wife's mother in Miami which I like alot, and we left our son with abita and spent a week in Key West to celebrate the new year. (If you've never been I reccomend it to all.) If I saw correctly on the AX, you recently returned from China yourself. How was it? I also read about your conversation with the chinese sanda coach as well.

Its very interesting to goto places like China and Cuba (Communist) It put my coming back to America in a unique perspective.

[SanShou Guru]

Cipher,

What weight are you? There are only a handful of killers in the US in the normal San Shou ranks and if you tell me your weight I can probably tell you who is out there. Otherwise don’t worry about fighting other rookies. No Pro's have fought in the regular ranks outside of team trials in two years. Most fighters have <6 fights and there are few real injuries in a normal tournament even with mismatches. The biggest Killers were Jason Yee in '94 (2 KO's, 1 TKO), Cung Le in 97 (1 KO, 1 TKO and he was not going all out), and Marvin Perry in '00 (1 KO and 2 TKO's). In a normal event you will have maybe 1 KO and 4 TKO's for every 50 fights.

[MightyB]

Sanshou Guru, Who's out there in the 140lb to 150lb range right now? I'm specifically wondering about fighters who are most active in the Midwest.

[SanShou Guru]

There are two in the Mid west that I know of that have experience;

Chris Overby (150 or so) from Scott Sheely's Gym in Ohio

and

Robert King (148 or so) from Mike Altman's Gym in Houston

West Coast there is:

Santos Soto (10-3) from Cung's at 143-153

East Coast you have:
Albert Pope (17-2) from Boston San Shou (133-144)
Mike Norman (10-1) From Boston san Shou (150+)
Richard Acosta (10 (11?)-1) From NYKK (150+)
Elan Schwarts (10-5 (?)) from NYKK (via Boston San Shou) (144+)
Max Chen (14-4(?)) From William C. C. Chen (150+)

This weight has the most talent right now I would say.

[Cipher]

I'm 6' and 220 lbs, mostly solid. I plan on getting down to about 200 lbs before I would try and fight. I have never fought in a full contact match, a lot of my training has been pretty heavy though and I have fough in class with head, hand and body gear at pretty decent force. But no official fighting.

How many fights have people like Jason Yee and Marvin Perry fought in? How many San Shou fight? Just wondering.

[SanShou Guru]

Cipher,

200 lbs has one MAJOR killer (Marvin Perry) that you would not see until you fought Pro.

Other Pros around that weight are;

Mike Altman from Houston
Brian Madigan from Oakland (New to Pro)
James Cooper from Houston
Ugene Jackson from LA or San Fran (I think)

Amateurs you have;
Adam Cadwell from Oakland
and umm...D'oh (ikfmdc got more?)

I would have to do some research to get more names but these are those that have been around for a while.


Records,
Jason Yee is like 11-3 all San Shou
Marvin Parry is 23-1 (20-1 San Shou 2-0 full contact and 1-0 Muay Thai)
Cung is 35(?)-4 (yes 4 loses) San Shou and maybe 5 are ****okan (sp)
Rudi Ott is like 26-4 (yes 4 loses also) All San Shou
Mike Altman is something like 32-4 or so. Full Contact and San Shou I think.

(Please correct me if you know the exact numbers)

You are a veteran if you have more than 10 San Shou fights (maybe 35 in the US), old skool if you have more than 20 (maybe 15 in the US). Old dog if you are 30+ (maybe 6 in the US).

[Cipher]

This help a lot. I will just train hard and wait until an opertunity comes up. Thanks.

There is a tourney in Ohio in Feb. www.wuma.com it is some kind of mixed type art, I'm not sure but it seems like they have some San Shou or Kickboxing matches going on. I am waiting for a email reply from them to find out more. I may go and just watch and see what it is ike. I found a lot of Martial Arts tourneys around here but finding one that has San Shou or similar fighting is a little harder.

lkfmdc,
Like I said before I loved the pics at sanshou.org, If I can ever jet my but to Japan does anyone know of any cool spots in Tokyo to check out for Martial Arts while I am there? My wife is from Japan so she should no how to get around as long as I know where to go. Thanks.

Edit: Oh-yeah, at the wuma site click on the Arnold Battle of Columbus link.

[lkfmdc]

Please remember, in tournament San Shou you have to be 198 or under or you are in the OPEN class with no weight limit. Right now, I am not sure what amateurs are in the under 198 class. It was fairly thin at the nationals, Marvin Perry (now pro, not going to fight amateur tournaments anymore), ME (yes, ME, I was tempted to come out of retirment after 11 years, stupid me, and since I had students in both my weight class and the class above I fought at 190 lbs even though I walk around at 185 and should have been fighting at 177 more stupid me. My opponent, Brian Madigan walks around at 215 I am told), Brian Madigan turned PRO and should not be fighting in amateur tournaments. The fourth guy in that division is Cadwell, he is still around...

PROFESSIONAL at around this weight is now quite full with Mike Altman, Eugene Jackson, Marvin Perry, Madigan, Jasmes Cooper, YOusef Taghizadeh, etc

I may have a newbie in over 198 class (ie OPEN). I don't have anyone for 198 class right now

[lkfmdc]

Arnold Classic so far has not been a major event, ie the big six teams have not attended, thus it is probably a good place to go for experience

[lkfmdc]

I went to China on very short notice and only was there a short time but the trip was worth it, had a great time and made some connections. But I came back right into the holidays and I am so far off normal schedule it is scary :)

I am trying to find out if people would be interested in going to China to train at the Shanghai Physical Culture INstitute. We could put together a good tour, plus the city is a blast

[lawdragon]

Great thread. Someone mentioned the mantiskungfu site - the Tiger Balm tournament in Vancouver BC, and others have asked about safety and the like for new fighters. I had about a year of southern mantis kung fu and I was a college all ameerican wrestler 15 years ago when I entered last years Tiger Balm at the novice class. It was a little scarry at first (the guy in the fight right before my first one got knocked out), but it was a lot of fun. I won my bracket by utilizing a lot of grappling - you really should know some wrestling, judo, jj, etc. or expect to be thrown around a bit. I'll be at Tiger Balm this year again.

Anyone know of other San Shou events in the Northwest? So far, Vancouver BC is the only place I've seen with San Shou. Havn't heard of any in Seattle or Portland, etc.

[SanHeChuan]

Can you tell me about the San shou scene in Texas, any schools, tournaments, badasses; I weigh 170 who should I look out for.

Oh and have you heard of my coach, Yi Yuan Lee he's won many national tournaments in Taiwan, I think he's a middleweight.

[Cipher]

Is there anywhere that explains the rules for San Shou matches? I am wondering since San Shou is Kung Fu kickboxing and it seems the people who fight in it have Kung Fu back grounds in different areas what are the rules? From what I have been able to tell.

Pretty much any kind of closed fist strike, back fist, and bottom of your fist (ex.hammer fist). No elbows? Can you grab the hand or arm? What about striking the neck and back of head?

Kicks to everywhere but the knee. What about sweeps and side kicks to the shin? and what about knees? can you grab the feet or legs? No groin stricks. Can you kick the sides and back of the leg. No kicks to the back?

No kicking or stricking when oponent on the ground, can grapple by throwing, slaming and tripping.

What about certain types of blocks and deflections, I am training in Wing Chun, can you use traping and other blocks/deflections to open someone up and hit them?

Can someone please post a link listing rules or post here and confirm what I listed above. Thanks.

[CanadianBadAss]

Cipher here r the rules http://www.mantiskungfu.com/rulessanshu.html

San shou guru,
do you think san shou has a chance of becoming an olympic event now that the olympics will be taking place in china?

[Cipher]

Originally posted by CanadianBadAss
Cipher here r the rules http://www.mantiskungfu.com/rulessanshu.html

San shou guru,
do you think san shou has a chance of becoming an olympic event now that the olympics will be taking place in china?

Thanks for the link, it was very helpful.

To anyone who can answer,
Are the rules listed on http://www.mantiskungfu.com/rulessanshu.html amature rules that most must follow when attending the random tourney? Are they current and up to date? I did not think that striking the head more than once would be a problem is this right? The rules sound like it is point sparring, I realize they always keep points but it did not say anything about knocking the person out or a TKO, it said not to use excessive force to intentionally hurt or injure the person, do you have to hold back on the power or force in your attacks or can to KO or TKO to win in the amature events. Maybe I am confusing the pro and amature rules. Thanks.

[lawdragon]

Cipher:

I can't really speak about other places, but the rules that were posted are in conjunction with the Tiger Balm tournament. If you look at the tournament flier online, it says sanshou is "controlled contact." When I got there and asked the center ref exactly what "controlled contact was, he chuckled and said "theres no such thing as controlled contact sanshou."

At the Tiger Balm, at least, full power was the rule. And there were some TKOs. There was a two consecutive punch limit on the head. After two punches, you had to throw a kick, a punch to the body or wait one second. Also, I was warned that not everyone follows all the rules. For instance, I got hit on top/back of head several times after catching a kick and working a takedown from it.

[lkfmdc]

rules vary, especially these days, equipment, no equipment, Lei Tai stage, boxing ring, no knees, with knees, 10 point scoring, international scoring, etc etc

a number of the formats are explained at <a href=http://www.geocities.com/necaf>www.geocities.com/necaf</a>

[ShaolinTiger00]

SeHeChuan,

Texas has Mike Altman's team in Houston, who are always strong competitors in sanshou.

[SanShou Guru]

Cipher,

Those rules are the back bone rules of the sport but ikfmdc has it right in that the rules change from event to event, things added or more often removed.

SanHeChuan,

Shaolin Tiger beat me to it. Mike Altman is the only real game in Texas right now when it comes to San Shou. I believe you can look it up under Houston Kickboxing Gym. I don't have the number of the gym right now but you should be able to find it. ikfmdc if you have it can you send it to me?

CBA,

We are hoping the San Shou will make it into the 2008 game in China but rumor has it that they may just do forms and not add fighting. I was hoping for a long shot and they would have Push Hands also.

[lkfmdc]

on the Lei tai stage, with chest guards, NO knees is pretty standard for tournament San Shou still,, but over the last year or so pretty much NO event in the US has enforced the rule about two punches to the head. So I'd work some boxing if I was going to compete in the US...

Mike Altman's school info is on teh schools page at www.geocities.com/necaf

[Cipher]

Heres another thing I am wondering. When you throw someone can you grab their neck when slamming? and when they are grabing you to slam you can you grab their neck. I know the rules seem to be hazy at different events but in general how do neck grabs work? Grabing the neck can be a easy way to hurt someon but you don't want to break their neck right?

[SanShou Guru]

Cipher,

You cannot deliberately try to injure you opponent in that way. it would be considered a joint attack. You can grab their neck in a defensive fashion but you cannot throw your opponent in such a way that could cause paralysis or death. You are also not allowed to throw a hook or wheel kick to the back of the head any more after there were a few fatalities in China in 1998. A few fighters got their neck broken that way.

[Cipher]

Originally posted by SanShou Guru
Cipher,

You cannot deliberately try to injure you opponent in that way. it would be considered a joint attack. You can grab their neck in a defensive fashion but you cannot throw your opponent in such a way that could cause paralysis or death. You are also not allowed to throw a hook or wheel kick to the back of the head any more after there were a few fatalities in China in 1998. A few fighters got their neck broken that way.

Thanks. That makes more sense now.

Do you find that San Shou fighting helps open your mind up and make you much more aware of how to fight considering that you can catch and throw and have the same done to you? It seems like it would help make you think twice about throwing a fancy kick out there if you know your oponent have the option to grab you and slam you on the ground. After watching the vidoes that Xebsball posted a link to it made me wonder. I think it is a great thing to make you more aware of in close fighting and makes San Shou much more a realistic sport than anything else I have seen in the sport tourney area

[lkfmdc]

People in the martial arts, especially the Chinese martial arts, seem to have dillusions of "secret" and "deadly" techniques and how a "martial arts fight" should look like. San Shou is reality and quickly shows dillusional individuals that many of the things the THINK will work, will NOT....

[Cipher]

Sorry, here is another question. I know the standard glove is regular boxing gloves but has anyone ever been in a tourney that lets you use the Kempo/Bruce Lee gloves that alow you to grab better? It seems like it would make the grappling in San Shou fights better. Just wondering.

[Xebsball]

That type of glove is used in Kuoshu.
I dont really know the reason why San Shou uses boxing gloves instead of open finger ones...
Anyone knows?

[lkfmdc]

The idea that open finger gloves (or bare knuckles) will lead to better "kung fu fighting" is a fallacy. The Taiwan based Kuoshu organization had events with bare knuckle and then open finger gloves and the fighting went no where, it was very low level, even at the "world championships" in Taiwan. Open finger or bare knuckle leads to nothing but injury and reluctance to train had. Thus, low level fighters. Today, Taiwan sends fighters to fight in San Shou with boxing gloves, and teh Kuoshu organization has suspended it's world championships "until further notice"

[SanShou Guru]

I heard a lot of the Koshu guys injured their finger with those gloves on the face masks they use. I like the protection of the gloves. You can hit harder and block better and wrestling is not to difficult if you practice. I never think "I wish I had fingers to garb with" during a fight. But then after a decade you get used to things.

[Suntzu]

in what way does the style of glove hinder wanting to train hard? Peronally, I like the open finger glove, but than again I am also nursing a jammed finger from blocking a lil too relaxed with them on, so I see your point about injury.

[SanShou Guru]

You can fight harder longer with gloves on and come back for more the next day. I wish all of our rival schools train without gloves because I know that they are not going to be able to spar as hard as we do. ALL the most successful schools in Sa Shou train with gloves, headgear and Shin Pads.

Injuries suck and hamper training. If we were meant to fight barehanded for survival then we would have hooves not fingers. Men are meant to use tools and shields. Protect your hands if you are allowed to in your sport.

[Suntzu]

yeah, I had realized I had answered my own question after I had posted it and re-read it… in my traditional class we train Koushu and I take(will start…) San Shou elsewhere. San shou doesn't use the 'caged' head gear, right?

And for all the hard core traditionalist, is there really a forum that allows you to display techniques of individual styles? i mean you have point sparing, not much as far as individual style can be used there, you have continuous sparring, again, defaults basically to sort fo kickboxing??...

[SanShou Guru]

No Cage Headgear in the ring. We let our students wear it sometimes if they need the extra protection in class, otherwise we all use the competition headgear form Fightgear.

[lkfmdc]

Funny how people either think San Shou is too safe or too dangerous when the truth lies in between (as with most things). We make it relatively safe but it is also a true test, which is why it isn't a sport for anyone. Cager face gear is a false sense of protection, learn to block and move your head. Also, the cage often leads to "face masking" which is VERY DANGEROUS to the spine and neck