Did the theories of rigid and flexible evolve before or after P. Mantis

[seung ga faat]

Was Wong Long a Theorist who created a style or was the style created and the labels added later?
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[mantis108]

This would be THE question of the year for 2002! You deserve a medal for this. :D

Evolution! definately evolution in the case of Praying Mantis Kung Fu ( sorry to those Creationist ;) ). Furthermore, it is more than one person's (Josi Wong Long) work. I don't think he intended to claim full credit for it but the credit was due to him.

As far as my research goes, the 12 characters, 8 hards 12 fluids (this we have solid proof), and possibly 8 stirkes and 8 forbidden strikes concepts had been around for sometime before Josi's time. He (or they) most likely worked on them and "modified" them.

Here's the juice part: The other person quite possibly be the abbot of the temple which Wong Long visited. He mostly likely be a Tong Bei (White Ape) stylist. Wong Long originally a Tai Tzu Men stylist might run into trouble with a "strong armed" opponent such as one who studied Tong Bei and then realized that hard against hard is futile. Wouldn't the order of the 18 family poem strikes you a bit odd that Tai Tzu and Tong Bei are number 1 and 2 on the list and a few legends had to do with Josi met an "strong armed" or "strong" opponent and failed to overcome the said opponent? Why of all footwork "primate's"?

There you go. Mantis is definately a DELIBERATE DESIGN not a sudden fluke.

Mantis108

[seung ga faat]

Well 108,
Why don't the 8 and 12 cover the true depth of the mantis style when it comes to attack and defense?
According to Tai Chi Tong Long Legend; Wong Long had additional variations on the 12 principles and my own research revealed much more than 8,12,18,&12.
Their are also keywords/principles from the 18 styles. Is this the work of one,two,or three people or did the mantis fighting exist before W. Long (Yellow Dragon?)? You know their Mantis stories about mantis soldiers that go back over 1500 years.(closer to 2000 years.
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[Young Mantis]

Seung ga faat,

Are you translating Wong Long, the name of our style's founder, as Yellow Dragon?

[mantis108]

Hi Seung Ga Faat,

The problem with PM is that oral teachings and legends are around for many of it's spin off styles. It has been going on for around 350 years. It would seem the 7 stars lineage was the first to "release" it's documented "system" while Mui Fah lineage seems to have factions that held onto the "secrets manuals". Adding to the problem was the fasination of the public. Not to mention for some bizzare reason people today blending the Northern and southern Mantis legends and background together.

Regarding the state of PM theories, quite frankly there are a lot of misinformed printed material kicking around. I have a book that's publish in Mainland China and it said it is Taiji Praying Mantis but the history is that of the Southern Mantis and the material covered are but a bunch of kick boxing, new age Wushu Kendo, and knife fighting. The auother alos admitted in the intro that it has nothing to do with the real TJPM. So buyers beware. The sad truth about books is that it has to sell. The more fantasized the better. That is why in Kung Fu, the Sifu is most important.

The reason that there is confusion about what the 12 characters principle is about came from the inability to seperate/determin whether it is technique base or it is concept base. Same with the 8 rigid and 12 flexible. It generates a technique or a force/power? So everyone jumps in to add their own opinion. Some have good experience some don't - too many chefs spoil the broth.

One things you might want to check out before drawing any conclusion is the relationship between weaponary (especially sparring) and open hand. Then you will be able to see a world of difference in the reasons behind these theories and the depth of the formulation of PM system.

Regards

Mantis108

[seung ga faat]

Well,
Their is life on the forum.
108, in response I will just say, when I started studying this style my Sifu taught forms,drills and lohan kung. All theory was taught with contact sparring with my classmates, Applications and conversations with my Sifu and Senior Brothers,but sparring was were I learned what was most important. Energy training was the most important thing when learning from Chueng Sifu. Sifu rarely spoke of all the classical literature surrounding the PM style.
Through forms I was taught shape and movement and through Lohan Kung and Various drills I learned the focus and release of energy and though sparring I learned how to use those afore mentioned skills.
I was with my Sifu over 8 years before we started to discuss the classical literature of PM. Praying Mantis theory was expressed though my teachers action and teaching not though Literature.
I was interested you personal experiences and your personal feelings about the origins of this art. Because, I don't believe the published PM documents are free of misdirection.
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[seung ga faat]

Young mantis,
I think we know each other and if that is true I have been to your Sifu's school. Making that assumption feel free to E Mail me at othalthomas@hotmail.com and I will answer any question that I can.
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[mantis108]

Hi Seung Ga Faat,

I must first thank you for your being candid with me. The training/learning that you received is no doubt traditional PM. It is with action not words. Practice first talk later. Far too many people today believe's in secret manuals or formula's that is printed on papers. We must understand that the Praying Mantis secret manual's in practicing the "living books". The forms, the drills, the Sau Fa, etc... May be time has really changed. Nowaday's people buy a book or a video and believe that they have learned from them Kung Fu. They might have learned the form or whatever material but they certain didn't train in it. Without training it is not Kung Fu. You are absolutely correct in that all these theories are in the training already. But there are people who prefer words that action. So to each their own. Allow me to share this with you. My Sigung the late Grandmaster Chiu Chuk Kai of Taiji Praying Mantis had about no more than 2 pages (well actually less than a page if it is written in smaller charaters) of "theories".

Check the site TJPM in Surrey BC (http://www.traditionalkungfu.com) .

It can be summarize with one word "quickness". No one who have met him, including Tainan Mantis's teacher who is renown and respected master of PM in Taiwan, would doubt his Praying Mantis Kung Fu just because he wasn't big on giving the load down on theories. His stuff was in his action not the talking. That, my friend, is my view on theories. But then working on theories to understand how Mantis has evolved through talking about it is also a fun and excellent way to study our beloved arts.

Regards,

Mantis108