Just a little about my art.

[don bohrer]

I study American Kenpo Karate. My instructor is Mike Acosta; a little old mexican guy who moves powerfully and is fast when he needs to be. I would charactorise American Kenpo as a brutal art. We constantly eye gouge, hit the groin, and attack the knee and elbow joints.
Our self defense techniques are build on several concepts. Ecomony of motion being one. The cuase and effect reaction our choice of action has on our opponent. An alternating height of attack patterns. It is also charactoristic of us to overwhelm with a constant barrage of attacks.
Parker called us Karate and as far as I know he did this for the public. I am in the AKKA organization. Currently headed by Bill Packer who trained under Tom Conners. Mr. Packer and Tom Conners thought we had to much of a linear Japanese foundation and wanted more of a chinese flavor. Circular techniques were added along with more katas such as Mass Attack, Boxing Form, Book Set, Stalking Panther and many more.
These changes removed the hard edge of karate but did not add the internal of kung fu. I believe Kenpo has a lot to offer but still can benifit from cross training into other arts. While I have much to learn this is just a little bit about the art I study. Good or bad I believe it's the man that makes the art. I invite each of you to speak a little on what your art has to offer. For other Kenpoist please feel free to add to what I have posted. :cool:

[David Jamieson]

Hi Don.

My Sifu learned Kempo back in the 70's. A Dutch indo Kuntao/Kempo blend. He taught us students some parts of it via self defense lessons but no longer teaches the system and instead teaches Southern Siu Lam Five animals, Nam Siu Lam Hak Fu Pai of the Toisan(hoysun) district, North Shaolin and Ching Lung Pa Kua Chang.

The Hak Fu (Black Tiger) is a fairly compact (short/mid range), economic and aggressive style with some very good weapons sets and plenty of tears, breaks and smashing through techniques. It is very similar in flavour to Hung Gar and I have found many of the techniques and practices of Black Tiger to be in the pillar sets of Hung Gar. Relentless attack is part of the style and it is pretty effective as a fighting style. if I had to use Kung Fu in a fight (touch wood that I don't), this is the style I would fight with.

The 5 animals contains quite a lot of body concepts, body balance, bone development, muscle development, jing, chi and yi development.

There are many supplemental exercises that go with these systems such as Nei Gong, Chi Kung and conditioning exercises and two man drills such as iron bridge, hard gongs and so on.
Pretty solid style and I get quite a lot of enjoyment and benifits from the practice of it.

I also learned some North Shaolin, Kyu Yu Cheong lineage and this has tempered the southern style. It has a different flow and flavour than southern Shaolin and it really get's ya working on Kicks. I like to practice North Shaolin to keep perspective on flexibility and fa jing. There is lots about this style that I favour also.

Along with the Kung Fu, also learned and developed lion dance. Now that is a lot of fun and a good way to show kung fu skill and have a great time doing it.

Anyway, there's more, but not enough time :)

Keep your enthusiasm high
peace

[don bohrer]

Is there any other brave souls who wish to tell us about there art?

[xiong]

My Shifu is Li Jinheng and I am learning wushu. I previously studied Northern Shaolin (Bak Sil Lum) and had alot of prejudice against wushu from tournaments except for this one guy I saw who was bad ass.

Going to class down here changed my mind. I like wushu because it is familiar, the first form I learned, Longfist (Chang Chuan) is similar to the Shaolin Set 6 (Duan Da). Broad low stances, high kicks, large circular movements are all characteristics of the style.

I also like the fact that wushu is an overview, so you get exposure to many flavors of various styles. Another instructor at the school teaches animal styles and I am learning Three Treasure? Sword (San Cai Jian) from him.

I am also getting some exposure to Xing Yi, which I like but I don't feel comfortable doing yet.

I hope this gives you some idea, I feel that I am doing a poor job at explaining what I am learning and what makes it enjoyable.

[Former castleva]

I would love to learn american kenpo karate.I think I know one technique,I don´t know what it is called but it is a punch defense in which you interlock your hands around your opponents arm and neck and lock his arm.
I learned it from aikido sensei and then saw it in "black belt" magazine.
I think there is not such thing as a brutal art,when I was younger,I was a believer in non-violent self-defense,but my opinions changed when I became older.

[Ralek]

Brazilian Jiujitsu has beat down both kung fu and Kenpo in no rules challenge matches and in NHB competitions with some rules. I have it on video. And the BJJ guy is smaller by 50-80 pounds lighter. Despite the wieght disadvantage BJJ always destroys kung fu and Kenpo.

Keith Hackney vs. Royce Gracie is a good example of BJJ defeating kenpo. Royce won by armlock from the guard. And royce got an arm wrap on Hackney and elbowed hackney's head. The only rules were no biting and no eye gouging. Groin grabs were legal.

[JasBourne]

(Siddown and shaddap Ralek/Josh. You need a new comedy routine, dude - we've all heard that one already ad nauseum *yawn*)


I study Wing Chun, Yip Man and Jui Wan lineages. WC is characterized by close cobat range, economy of motion and centerline principles.

[Xebsball]

Hey Ralek i have a question since you seem to have experience on the subject...
Can you give me the adress of a big Gay Porn company that makes videos worldwide?
I have the greatest idea for a movie, its called "The Brazilian Mount".

[Royal Dragon]

Keith Hackney vs. Royce Gracie is a good example of BJJ defeating kenpo. Royce won by armlock from the guard. And royce got an arm wrap on Hackney and elbowed hackney's head. The only rules were no biting and no eye gouging. Groin grabs were legal.

Reply]
Hackney had his foot IN HIS HAND during that fight, and could easily have broken it off the end of his leg. Why he did'nt do it is beyond me, but he was THAT close to ending your Brazillian boys carreer.

When we asked him, he said he was tired, but I think he just did'nt think of it.

If your boy came THAT close to not only losing that fight, but a career ending ankle break, does'nt that say Kempo held its own pretty well? The fight was won and lost over split hairs.

Royal Dragon

[Royal Dragon]

Ok, here's some stuff from my web site.

Tai Tzu Chang Chuan, and Tai Tzu Quan for short, is a family of related martial arts that were invented by Chao, Kuang Yin also known as the Emperor Sung Tai Tzu. , while Tai Tzu Wu Gong means Grand Emperor's martial skills. and is a collection of arts he practiced, mastered OR invented during his life (it's more of a heading or classification I came up with to describe all the separate arts and influences rolled into one). My current line of thinking is it is probually more corredt to call it Chao Family Fist though.

Chao, Kuang Yin was born in 927 AD. He was born into a military family and eventually became a General. He and his brother, through military combat, conquered five warring states and united them into one peaceful dynasty. He took the throne in 960 AD. This is when he took on the name Sung Tai Tzu, meaning grand or great Emperor. He reigned until 976 AD., when he died of complications from a common illness. Accounts vary, but it seems that his brother Chao, Kuei (Sung, Tai Tzong) then took the throne until his son was old enough to rule.

Sung Tai Tzu studied many arts during his life and invented two. Tai Tzu Chang Chuan means Grand Emperor's Long Fist, and refers to the arts invented by Chao, Kuang Yin These arts were later expanded and perfected by his descendants during the Song dynasty and the following Yuan and Ming dynasties. The school is divided into two main sections. Those would be arts he learned elsewhere and arts he invented himself.

Divisions of Tai Tzu Quan:

Tai Tzu Chang Chuan:

Northern Tai Tzu was the first to be developed, and was the one of only two divisions invented directly by Sung Tai Tzu himself. It all started with the original 32 move Chang Chuan or Long Fist routine. Over time, many Chang Chuan routines came into existence. One (or more) was even shared with the Shaolin Temple and is still taught by them to this day. Chang Chuan, although originally a strict family secret was eventually taught both publicly and to the Song's military. By the Ming dynasty, it was very wide spread. Three main Long Fist styles are said to have come directly from Tai Tzu Chang Chuan. The first is the Hong Fist, then the Gun(g) Fist, and finally the Shaolin's Chang Chuan. From the three main Chang Chuan divisions many complete styles developed. Many others were influenced, like the Northern Preying Mantis. Tai Tzu's Chang Chuan division was one of the 18 styles practiced by Wong Long, founder of the Northern Mantis style. Most current Chang Chuan styles are rooted in Tai Tzu or influenced by it some how. Although other Chang Chuan styles existed prior to Tai Tzu Chang Chuan, it is considered to be one of the "Great Grand fathers" of Long Fist styles. The training methods and forms are pretty similar to today's martial Chang Chuan. It carries the long extended movements and is known to strike from a distance. It also contains plenty of kicking techniques, just like today's versions of Chang Chuan. External conditioning is like that of Shaolin Kung Fu.

Tai Tzu Nan Chuan:

In 1127 AD. the Manchurians conquered much of the Song Empire. The Royal family fled south and set up their capitol there. The Emperor Chao, Zong, a former prince who was 9th in line to be emperor, took the throne and is credited with restoring the Song dynasty in the south. Once reestablished, the Chao family continued to expand and improve their art. The principals and "spirit" of the Southern Shaolin styles of the time were combined with that of the existing Tai Tzu system to form it's newest and youngest division, the Tai Tzu Southern Long Fist. Also an external division, it contains more "in close" range fighting and uses more hand techniques than it's Northern "Kicking specialties" older brother. Students that study and combine both divisions are formable fighters to say the least.

The Southern division is also similar to other Southern divisions in the respect that it shares the same strong rooted stances and looks much stiffer and rooted than the Northern Chang Chuan division. If you compare the two, you can still see the family resemblance. Southern Tai Tzu also likes to use plenty of dynamic tension in it's basic form. It is somewhat similar Yi Jin Jing in that respect, at least in principal if not exact movement.

Originally, Southern Tai Tzu contained only 6 formal routines. Today, the first three are openly taught, wile the fourth, fifth, and sixth routines are generally closed-door sets, if they are taught at all.

All Tai Tzu divisions have the Five Element theories at their core. The Five Elements are categories of movement and technique. Basically all martial movement fits into one of these five categories. Wood movements are movements that go straight out and back in. The front snap kick and basic from the hip punch are examples. Metal is for chopping movements, Earth is for movements that circle from your centerline outward, Fire is for movements that strike and block simultaneously, and water is for movements that go upward, like an upper cut or leg lift. If you draw a chart to represent the Five Elements, you would position them in a circle. Each element can defeat the element directly to the right of itself, and the one on the left can destroy it. The whole thing is like an expansion of the old Paper Scissors Rock game from child hood According to Grand Master Livingston, "If you master the Five Elements, there isn't a single style out there that you cannot figure out how to defend against"!!

Tai Tzu Chang Chuan (Chao family fist) also includes the arts of Taoist Natural Fist, Six Step Monkey Boxing and the Taji Ruler, a Chi Kung exercise taught to the Emperor by Chen Po, founder of the Six Harmonies, Eight Methods style (Li Hu, Pa Fa).

[shenwu disciple]

Hey don bohrer,

I see that you're from El Paso. That's cool to see someone from the southwest posting. I've got a few questions for you:

One, do you guys in the AKKA Organization spare? I dropped by the AKKA place on Mesa St. once and they said that students weren't allowed to spar until they were one belt away from black, which they said took approximately three years. Is this true of the whole organization, or just the joint on Mesa Street?

Two, that's cool that you are open to learning things from other arts. Would you be interested in getting together for some friendly sparring and/or training? If not, Tim and his bjj teacher, Cleber Luciano, are coming down for a seminar the first weekend in February at NMSU. Tim is a lineage holder in various styles of Tai Ji, Bagua Zhang, and Xing Yi. He also has a purple belt in Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu under Cleber, and Cleber is a black belt in bjj and judo under Royler and Rickson Gracie. Attending this seminar would be a great time to expand your horizons.

Three, have you ever gone to that Bushido place on the east side? I stopped by there once. They pretty rude.

Guess I'll add something to the thread as well. I've been a student of Tim Cartmell for almost five years now. My primary focus at Tim's Shen Wu Academy has been Gao style Bagua, Shan Xi Xing Yi, and Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu. In addition to those arts, I have also studied, and continue to study, Escrima, Arnis, and Judo under different instructors, which Tim has always encouraged me to do.

By the way, I live in Las Cruces, NM.

[Felipe Bido]

Very cool stuff.

Shenwu disciple, you should be very proud to study with Mr. Cartmell (And I know you are :D )

[Richie]

I do Tai Shing Pek Kwar.

[NorthernMantis]

My Shifu is Li Jinheng

Hey isn't he Jet Li's brother?I could be wrong

My friend has a tape of Li Jinheng of him back in 89 in this wu shu competition.Man he is good with the rope dart.It flies around like a bullet.I was really impressed by his skill.

Have you heard of Li Zhu Zhou [sp?],his eagle claw is one of the best I have ever seen!Wu shu wise of course.I never seen a traditional eagle claw form.I saw them both at this competition on tape.

[Ralek]

Royal Dragon. I have the fight on video. I don't see any time that Hackney has a chance of foot locking Royce. You will find that kenpo cannot foot lock a BJJ fighter. The reason is that kenpo's moves do not work. Royce embarrased Kenpo despite his 50 pound weight disadvantage with Hackney. If i were Hackney i would be ashamed to were a kenpo uniform after that beating.

[DelicateSound]

How are you not ashamed already - you are Ralek!!

[don bohrer]

Shenwu,

Thank you for the invitation. Did you know we have an AKKA school in Las Cruces? As far as I know all Kenpo schools in the AKKA organization spar. Many of the schools in our organization do not attend open tournaments. I don't know the reason for this. However last year my school did attend about half a dozen opens. We did very well.

[omegapoint]

All these eclectic American kenpo systems (this includes Chinese Kempo) are a joke. The only real Kenpo is Shorinji Kempo and Okinawan Kenpo. Get it straight!

GJJ is a much more effective fighting method than American Kenpo. Royce waxed all those folks early on because they didn't hav the foggiest idea about fighting a SKILLED opponent.

I have to agree with Ralek the Fake on this one. GJJ is way, way superior to any Diluted Karate or Chuan Fa!

[shenwu disciple]

Yeah Don, I did know that you had an affiliate in Las Cruces. I stopped by when they opened because they said they offered judo classes. When I showed up, they said the judo instructor left for some undisclosed reason. Does your particular dojo offer some sort of grappling classes?

Hey Felipe, what gave me away, my screen name :D!?!

[Felipe Bido]

Yeah, sorta :D

[don bohrer]

Omegapoint,

What would you have me call my art then?

[TenTigers]

I am a Hung-Ga instructor, but I have formerly been an instructor of Kenpo. There are alot of Hung-garisims in kenpo, possibly due to William Chow's influence, and James Ibrao, and other Chinese martial artists. Many kenpo schools do the Lau-Gar form, Tiger/Crane sets of Hung-Ga as well. Many of the kenpo techniques are word for word taken from Hung-Ga sets. Some have been karate-ized, or Americanized, and when they are brought back to their original movement, they become even more devastating. It appears that Chow, taught only application, and not forms. There are many traditional systems that teach this way. Gu-Lao Wing Chun is one, and on the other end of the scale, Jiu-Jutsu is waza based as well.

[xiong]

Northern Mantis

As I understand the relationship they are Martial brothers. Li Jinheng is a bit older than Jet and started training before him. I do not believe they are actually related.

They do however keep in touch and Jet visits him when he is in town.

I have seen Li Jinheng perform the ropedart in person and it is truly amazing, it seems impossible to shoot that thing strait out like he does.

He is starting to teach the fundamentals of whip chain in my class, I can see the potential for me knocking my teeth out.

[Aramus]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by omegapoint
[B]All these eclectic American kenpo systems (this includes Chinese Kempo) are a joke. The only real Kenpo is Shorinji Kempo and Okinawan Kenpo. Get it straight!

Varjamushti or Diamond Fist is the name of Chinese kenpo before it went to China (at least I've read it as so). From China it it spread with religion, travelers, etc. According to "Ultimate Martial Arts Encyclopedia" on Kempo History Shorinji Kempo is the Japanese word for Chinese Kenpo (of course the Japanese blended this old art with their native art). So the original form went from India to China to Japan. From China to many other places. From Japan to Hawaii from Hawaii to US, etc.

Okinawa: Introduced 5 animal forms to Shorniji Kempo. Okinawans with their warmer climate and knowledge of karate, emphasized striking since light clothes were worn (oversimplification...sorry).

Ed Parker was an intelligent man who spent a lot of time developing his art. Much like the masters of old, he fought, tested, re-evaluated and refined his style. He then tried to make it an art that could taylor itself to the artist; instead of the artist conforming to the art.

Did you have a bad experience with a Kenpo school? Sorry, bad instructors, bad people, bad checks do exist. However, there are several great people, several great instructors, and many more good checks written per year.

Peace...or flame on which ever you chose.

[don bohrer]

TenTigers,

Could you do a little more in depth comparision of American Kenpo and Hung ga for me. Specifically on the Kata and technique that American Kenpo has incorperated from Hung Ga. You wouldn't know the person responsible for this introduction would you. My bet would be Tom Conners, but that is only a guess

[JWTAYLOR]

Almost all of the Tracy schools still have the Tiger/Crane set. The best person to talk to about where it came from is Sigung Steve LaBounty. He often posts on the www.kenponet.com forum and there are a lot of guys over there that can answer those questions.

JWT

[norther practitioner]

I (obviously) study northern style....chang chuan, shaolin, etc. Right now we are doing a few forms from the muslim's, and a few traditional shaolin forms. I also do some Yang Style Tai Chi Chuan. We usually start off with some qigong, then do whatever. I really don't think I need to go into history of shaolin or Yang tai chi on this forum.

[African Tiger]

Wonderful to have someone share their story, and not call their sport art invincible, better than guys who sit around and meditate all day, best thing since the invention of the blo-w job, etc.

I study Southern Shaolin at the Taoist Institute of Los Angeles with Sifu Carl Totten. I'm still learning about our history, but we are in direct lineage with Ark Yuey Wong and Share K Lew of the Yellow Dragon temple in Canton.

Our style is Five Animal/Five Family and Tao Tan Pai or Taoist Elixir Style.

In addition, we train in Ed Parker Kenpo and Lima Lama - which is pretty much Internal kung fu as modified by Grand Master Tino Tuisolega (I'm sure I spelled his name incorrectly!)

[Dark Knight]

"All these eclectic American kenpo systems (this includes Chinese Kempo) are a joke. The only real Kenpo is Shorinji Kempo and Okinawan Kenpo. Get it straight! "

And based on what is it a joke?

[don bohrer]

Dark Knight and Omegapoint,

Ok guys Why is American Kenpo and other forms of Kenpo not Kenpo? Would you please take a little time to educate me and others on this board. Perhaps an outline of what it takes for Kenpo to be called kenpo. Also would you be willing to share a little about the arts you study, thanks guys.

[Dark Knight]

My post was not clear. I also want to know why American Kenpo is not Kenpo.

Arts I study

Shorinji Kempo, Goju Ryu (Urban and Tenshi), Ju-Jitsu, TKD (Yes I did TKD like the rest of the world), Yudo, Kempo Ju-Jitsu, Taiho Jutsu, Shihan Ryu Karate

Im on the board of a couple organizations.

www.usjjf.org (THE governing body for Ju-Jitsu in the US)
Photos from the World Games http://www.usjujitsu.net/news/world_games/akita_photos.htm

www.usmaf.org

Martial Arts International Federation

www.shihanryu.org

I just hit 22 years in the arts. :) I enjoy all of them and like to see them grow. I pretty lucky that i get to be with high ranking people in this country and expand.

I am very involved with different organizations. Currently US Ju-Jitsu Federation is the organization that brought JJ to the World Games and is currently recieving recognition with the Olympic Committee. (To get the reconition you have to be a World Games member, only one per country)

The Nationals are comming up and hope to see you there as spectators.

The USJJF Spring camp is in Reno, come in, it will be seminars of many high ranks. Last year Gene Labelle was there, but he cannot come this year ):.

Events
http://www.usjujitsu.net/news/events/index.htm

[Dark Knight]

BTW, I spent a year with a Parker Kenpo 5th back in the 80's and he had excellent indepth info. That has been a common item in Parker Kenpo instructors. Ive have been to a couple seminars with Huk back when he was a 6th and 7th.

[Mantis9]

Hi Don,

I practice Northern 7* Praying Mantis. My lineage is from Lo Gwan Yu, to Chun Chun Yee, Gregory Fong, then my shifu, Tony Clark. The system is distinctive for its hand speed, economy of motion, chi na, and close range fighting.

[don bohrer]

Thank you guys sharing a little about yourselves. It's a real pleasure to read much of what is posted here.

[Colin]

Hi Don,
I study lau Gar Kung Fu in the UK under Master Jeremy Yau.
Lau Gar is a short to medium range southern style based on the five shaolin animals, it specialises in hand techniques and the staff (kwon). Lau Gar is of Hakka origin, and therefore has many similarities to styles such as SPM & bak Mei. It is little seen outside the UK as Master Yau is the keeper of the style, and has lived here for 40 years!

I also study Xing Yi Quan, but thats another story!

regards
Colin..........