Peng: comparing definitions

[Tainan Mantis]

How do you different practitioners define peng of peng lu ji an?

I ask because I read some history book connecting mantis to taiji in the Ming dynasty and I'm trying to find some similarities.

[Kumkuat]

upward force

[EARTH DRAGON]

1. WARD OFF ( PUNG ) this is just a decription of the movement
With weight on the right foot, move the left foot out at a 45^. As the weight shifts to the left foot, the body turns with it. The right hand circles under from the outside just under the waist, moving to the left, palm facing up while the left hand circles above, palm facing down, like an ebbing wave as the arms begin to circle. The body turns to the right by the waist as the arms cross and continue to circle, right now on top, left circling underneath. The body turns back to the left as the left arm again circles underneath the right. The body turns more by the waist on the second circle. The left foot steps out to the north to prepare for bow stance. The waist Twists to the north as the right arm completes its circle below the waist And circles out to the north at chest level roughly parallel to the floor. As it Does the palm rotates from facing up to facing down. The elbow is slightly dropped. The left hand lowers to the side of the body at the same Time, palm flat and facing down. As weight shifts forward, the waist rises up so the body resembles a wave rising. End in bow stance facing North, weight on the right leg.

[Fu-Pow]

Peng is an outward expansive "force." It is the main energy in Taiji that comes as a result of alignment and spiral movement. "It is the "straight with in the curved." Lu, Ji and An are other manifestations of Peng. Lu is "back peng." Ji is "forward peng." And An is "down Peng." Taiji is sometimes referred to as Peng Jing Boxing. This is the textbook definition.

In my own experience it feels like a bouncy, spring energy when I'm not moving. As I extend the energy seems to concentrate to the middle of my appendage and become more concentrated.

I as understand it Peng is the most essential energy to Taijichuan. In other words, without Peng there is no Taij. A feeling of Peng should be maintained in every movement and through the entire form. Easier said than done.

Peace out.

[Kumkuat]

Originally posted by Fu-Pow
Peng is an outward expansive "force." It is the main energy in Taiji that comes as a result of alignment and spiral movement. "It is the "straight with in the curved." Lu, Ji and An are other manifestations of Peng. Lu is "back peng." Ji is "forward peng." And An is "down Peng." Taiji is sometimes referred to as Peng Jing Boxing. This is the textbook definition.

In my own experience it feels like a bouncy, spring energy when I'm not moving. As I extend the energy seems to concentrate to the middle of my appendage and become more concentrated.

I as understand it Peng is the most essential energy to Taijichuan. In other words, without Peng there is no Taij. A feeling of Peng should be maintained in every movement and through the entire form. Easier said than done.

Peace out.

I think you got in confused. Peng in peng lu ji an is not the same peng as in the peng you're talking about. So, the way I learned it, peng lu ji an means up backward forward, down. And peng (different from peng lu ji an) is peng jing, or gound path vector, or the main energy in neijia, or mind leading qi, etc.,

[Shooter]

In discussing the martial art of Tai Chi with non-players, the number-one question raised asks what techniques are used in Tai Chi that would underline its unique flavor of movement and energy management. As always with Tai Chi, no easy answers.

Some (myself included) would answer that there are really no techniques in Tai Chi, only concepts and tactical useage of the bodyÕs energy management skills. Others would answer that the techniques are found within the form and only through understanding the form is there any realization of its tactical possiblities. In either case, neither opinion would be incorrect, as there is some truth to both.

The first things to be mentioned by most players are the 8 ÒjingsÓ or energies. Each energy has its own unique characteristics but are all derivatives of the root energy known as Peng. Peng as a whole-body energy is a spring-like energy with the same type of physical qualities as a beach-ball.

-Ward-off is much like an expansion-spring, like the main-spring in a watch. Its expansive force is generated in its wind-up and upon release, it rotates outward from a central pivot. Tactically, ward-off is a method of issuing force with the forearms and hands. It can be done with a single arm or both arms. More often than not, itÕs a repellent force that keeps the opponentÕs torso and hips from getting too close. In American Football, linemen use a ward-off of sorts as their primary tactic in meeting the front-line force of the opposing front-line.

-Roll-back can be likened to a coil-spring found in the shock-absorber assembly on a motorcycle or automobile. Its yeilding and bouyant properties lends the player a route to recovering or maintaining balance and equilibrium. Roll-back isnÕt a retreat - ItÕs an adjustment. Its tactical application is movement which assists other actions like a pitcher's wind-up before the pitch, or the palm-strike in Brush-knee-push-step. Roll-backÕs idea isnÕt confined to moving away or yeilding to an opponentÕs pressure. It contains both attack, and defense.

-Press applies the same type of energy as a leaf-spring which resists the loading in an automobile. ItÕs fixed mounting lends it a unique expansive quality that can be applied explosively or progressively.

Press is a tactical conversion of our natural flinch response when weÕre startled by noise, or when we anticipate an attack to the face and head or body. In fact, the four directions (Ward-off, Roll-back, Press and Push) all contain that conversion principle as an initialiser or catalyst in engaging the opponent. Rather than turning away from the threat or attack while sheilding, the response is focused proactively on the attack itself, and the defenderÕs points of intercepting contact. The posture lends the arms tremendous strength as the arms are connected with one hand on the opposite wrist.

-Push has much the same energy as the spring in a pneumatic rifle or pistol. As the trigger is depressed, the sear realeases the stored energy of the compression spring as it returns its original shape.

-Pull-down is a double-duty energy similar to the rewinder spring in a lawnmowerÕs pull-starter. The springÕs energy remains in a state of equilibrium until the opponentÕs balance-cycle ebbs during its recovery phase. As the balance-cycle begins to approach flow-state, the stored energy is released. It is used to uproot an opponent in freindlier types of push-hands play, but to a greater extent, it is the main grasping and gripping energy used in the grappling aspects of Tai ChiÕs combative use.

-Shoulder-stroke is also known as ÒBump.Ó Its application is widely used and observed in all forms of contact sports. A soccer player exemplifies Tai ChiÕs stepping method of kicking low to the ankles and lower shins. The knee moves through its regular stepping motion when itÕs used as a strike. It can also be accentuated with more bend and force, but its action should never interfere with the action of the step. Hockey players and football players use the same tactical method of striking when they body-check an opponent. Likewise, their use of hip-checks are essentially the same as Tai ChiÕs use. There are numerous examples of Shoulder-stroke found in all team sports which allow full body contact.

-Elbow-strike is just as it suggests. It has many uses and targets in its deployment and can be combined with one the four main energies in its application. More than a technique, itÕs a tactic that emerges from the flow-state within the practitionerÕs movement. ItÕs generally agreed by most palyers that Elbow-strike is concealed in the practice of form and push-hands. The reasons may be vastly different from one player to another, but this principle is nevertheless agreed upon.

-Split is Tai ChiÕs main striking energy. It is expressed on many levels from filling the opponentÕs gaps to striking their extended limbs. Split is often used in conjunction with other forms of energy and can be defensive or as an attack. Its broad applications are only limited by the practitionerÕs understanding of boxing skills. Split and Pull-down or ÒPluckÓ are often applied in tandem to give power to the strike or to facilitate the effect of Pull-down..

Understanding Tai ChiÕs 8 energies, or ÒJingsÓ is essential in gaining an understanding of the gateway to the systemÕs internal training. Each energy is studied through the practice of postures. On one level, the postures contain the primary and complimentary energies, and each posture is held in a static ÔposeÕ in order for the practitioner to internalize the feel of their bodyÕs structure as it works the primary and complimentary energies contained within. On a deeper level, the postures impart proper biomechanics and the concealing of the dynamic energy stored within.

Once the study of the 8 energies is understood, the linking forms can be understood for what they are. On a superficial level they can be appreciated as transitions, but on an internal level, they are the process of seperating and transmutating the energy in a dynamic manner rather then an abrupt shifting from one form of energy to another.


>>>As a side-note, blalance and flow-state are cyclical and can apply to the rhythm of oneÕs entire body, or localised as divided movement of the limbs, head, and torso. In regard to localised balance and flow-state, this divided movement is sometimes referred to as Òseperating the energy.Ó The cycling of outward and inward (expansion and contraction) force is called silk-reeling. A Tai Chi playerÕs practice of concealing this cycling is the bulk of oneÕs softness training in acquiring good silk-reeling skill.<<<

[Prairie]

When I think of peng, I think of it in the sense that Fu-Pow wrote earlier. It's an action of overall expansion. This principle is realized in all types of movements of taijiquan (unless one is like me and doesn't do it right) This would be the general meaning.

The specific meaning of peng is an upward expanding action as stated by Earth Dragon.

Bye for Now

[bamboo_ leaf]

“How do you different practitioners "define" peng”


I would say equal relaxation of all parts of the body and mind produces a natural tendency of the body to absorb and redirect forces acting on it much like a beach ball as “shooter” said. The ward off movement that it is associated with to me is more of a feeler used to determine type, direction and timing of in coming force.

If we talk of its use as in ward off, it attaches to and extends or follows the others movement.

Some TC styles use more of what is called supporting/carrying energy. This is a little different and seems to be what some are describing as pung or peng. This type of energy is more dependent on alignment and timing. A little different as I understand it. :)

[Tainan Mantis]

Thank you for the in depth replies.

Is peng the next move following grasping sparrow's tail in the beginning of the form(most forms)?

Can you use lu, ji or an to counter? Or how is it countered?

Shooter,
peng, lu ji and an are the first 4 of 8 energies?
What are the Chinese names for the last 4?

[Prairie]

Cai, Lie, Zhou, Kao

[Fu-Pow]

Bamboo leaf, when you are referring to peng as a technique in which you follow and redirect. Is that you are adding to the opponents momentum?

[Water Dragon]

I define the energies by how I use them, not by how they feel. Others have already described that, so I wont reiterate.

Peng (Ward Off) is an Oh $hit energy. It's a sudden "revealing" of the power in Taiji. It's a hardness that comes out of no where and disappears just as quickly once you regain control of the situation. To me, most Taiji strikes rely on the Peng principle.

Lu (Roll Back) is the constant energy, the ability to just "know" where the other guy is and what he's doing. It can be used in application if you choose, but I prefer to use it to keep tabs on the other guy.

Ji (Press) is pressing energy. It is used in conjunction with Lu. It is a constant "digging" into the other guys center. Although you are constantly listening to him with Lu, you are also looking for the advantage with Ji. Ji is what allows you to know when and where to attack, it is the energy that allows you to control th opponent. Think of yourself as a wet blanket that is on top of the other guy. Wherever he goes, there you are, maintaining a constant pressure.

An (Push) is the energy of pressing. Just as Peng comes out of Lu, An is married to Ji. It is an increase in pressure which serves to keep your opponent off balance. An serves to pull or push him off balance so that you may attack his center. Most of Taiji's throws are initiated from An.

The secondary energies serve more as strategic ideas and are easier to develop and understand.

Cai (Pluck) is used to tear the opponent off balance. Once you have determined opportunity, you "snap" him off balance so that he cannot resist your attack. In this way, Taiji technique appears effortless to the practitioner as you have removed the avenues of resistance.

Lie (split) is seperating a part of the opponents body from the center or torso. It serves to isolate said appendage so that you may "take" it. Interestingly enough, most Brazilian Ju Jitsu techniques operate off of the Lie principle.

Zhou (Elbow is probably the most misunderstood of the 8 energies. Although Taiji will strike with the elbow to great effect, it's purpose here is different. Zhou is used to jostle the opponent. They are used to help set up strikes and are better thought of as "Crimes of opportunity" Basically, if your elbow is there, you pop him. Zhou is generally used as a counter measure after your initial attack has failed. In this way, it is similar to Peng. Note that it is possible to use Zhou to set up an elbow strike, but the two should not be confused.

Kao (shoulder stroke) is using the weight of the body unbalance the opponent. I tend to think of it more as smoosh than strike or bump. Kao can be initiated from all parts of the body, not just the shoulder.

The 4 main energies are used at all times. This is your delivery system and the essence of the system. The 4 assisting energies are used to set up the actual finishing application.

[Fu-Pow]

Excellent, simply worded descriptions, thanks Water Dragon I'm going to save that post.

peace

[Daredevil]

Yeah, excellent stuff WD. This is why I love Taiji. :)

[RAF]

In addition to Water Dragon's excellent post, you might find the following helpful:

http://www.artofchina.com/Journal51.html#anchor197158

Kris Brenner spent sometime in China and has written some decent material.

Also there was a good paper by

It would also be worthwhile to get a hold of an article by Gene Chen:

Peng: The Inflated Quality of Chen Styel Taijiquan, translated by D. Houston, The Journal of the Chenstyle Taijiquan Research Association, Vol. 1, No. 4, August 1993.

"The first energy, Peng, means inflated energy. A visual metaphor for the quality Peng is displayed in any pneumatic structure lik an inflated tier, raft, or ball. In each of these case, the trapped air inside the structure resists the forces of compression from the exterior. From the study of physics, we know that when a pneumatic structure is compressed, the entire diaphragm, as well as the air inside, creates an equal and opposite reaction. The energy, Peng, practiced as explained above, would mean that a practitioner could hold a line of defense simply by extending the arm and inflating. Given this posture, the energy of the opponenet would not be able to eneter the circle of defense.

All too often, peng is misinterpreted in the manner described above (In a ward off movement, the oponent's thrust is neutralized by an equal and opposite force by the defender. This use of force creates an upward block. This is not peng.) For example, in the Tao of T'ai Chi Chuan (Jou Tsung Hwa, I believe) it is stated that peng is an upward movement. I believe this is incorrect because peng does not move in just one singular direction to counteract force. Peng actually moves in all directions . . . the illusion of the "upward movement" is created by both the body and hand turning onther axes"

Food for Thought.

[bamboo_ leaf]

“That a practitioner could hold a line of defense simply by extending the arm and inflating. Given this posture, the energy of the opponent would not be able to enter the circle of defense.”

I agree with much of the concept, out of curiosity how would you say it is used to keep some one out of the “circle of defense”


:)