Rules in Chi Sao

[BeiKongHui]

I've noticed some lineages impose "rules" (for lack of a better term) for Chi Sao. One I see often is that people only strike to the chest ignoring the head or outer gates. So what's up? It looks to me like this would breed bad habits. Opinions?:)

[rubthebuddha]

sometimes those rules are for practice -- a sternum can take a lot more contact than a neck, and sometimes they're for technical benefit, as trying to punch someone in the nose when you're on the outside gets you wedged off quicker than you can say, "uh-oh, that ****'s gonna hurt."

[S.Teebas]

BeiKongHui,

I know what you mean, i see people put the stupid rules in chi-sau to avoid doing it properly!! I like to see everything employed, like a good Bill Gee to the eyes to start with in my rolling. Followed by elbow strikes to the kneck, then just for good measure i grab both of their arms and start to repeadly head butt them!!!

...oh hang on, that has nothing to do with chi sau. Chi sau is not about hitting! (well it is but it isn't..make sence?...good!)
:)

[WCFish]

Hi BeiKongHui,
We use that rule you mentioned as beginners. It is much harder to trap and hit someones chest than their head. It is also less dangerous for people who have not developed the necessary skills to participate in Gor Sau.

[vingtsunstudent]

wcfish, happy new year & i hope all is well.
'One I see often is that people only strike to the chest ignoring the head or outer gates'
i will only refer to the head here.
striking the head is actually lazy & is what will develop bad technique. the centre is much harder to hit & will also make sure you use correct elbow positioning & will also allow for greater control of your partner. if you can constantly control your chi sao partner through their chest then hitting anyone in the head becomes mere childs play.
i'm sure that there are plenty who will disagree but that is only through a lack of understanding, again don't get me wrong as the head is still a target in chi sao & i have often attacked there as well but it is different when you have the reason to do so.
can i just say that not attacking the head is not a rule that we impose when playing chi sao it's just the different way we look at things, you may be different.
vts

[whippinghand]

Chi sau is not a fight. It is an exercise. An exercise has certain guidelines so as to optimize the benefits of that exercise.

If there are no "rules"'/guidelines in chi sau, then why not just spar?

[Tomhands]

i think vingtsunstudent is basically right--in focusing on the chest you focus on the center. Reactions are triggered as attacks deviate from the center (high, low, outer gates). This is not an arbitrary rule, though! If you box to defend your standing structure and disrupt somebody else's standing structure (while inflicting damage on various vulnerable sites, of course), then you can't ignore the center--from the sternum to the dan-tien--in chi-sao training.

but chi-sao shouldn't become an "ideal world" meditation. if you want to save your ass, then you shouldn't ignore anything--from your head to your neck to your knees. random high, low, and outer-gate strikes, with or without continuous contact, should never be neglected in our training. it would be suicide if we ignored these. that means we should be able to deal with them during chi-sao. but that doesn't mean that defending/attacking the center in chi-sao training should be de-emphasized.

[Nichiren]

Of course there must be some rules for beginners. It is a sorry sight when people just begining chi-sao is trying to mimic the experienced sihings and the outcome is mix between a cat-fight and swimming. You have to learn to crawl before bla, bla....

[WCFish]

Happy new year to you too VTS,
All is well down here.
I must agree with you when you say that not attacking the head is not a "rule" which we enforce, but rather something we try and do. If it were a rule then I would be a bit annoyed about all the times I've been smacked in the head! As it is I just know my defence needs work. Mind you, so does everything else.:D

[harry_the_monk]

I chi sau with girls a lot to improve my sensitivity.
one thing i find with doing it with the girls is that chest strikes are not an option, especially if they are a little well-built around the area.:D
just anatomical not sexist before i get accused.

[whippinghand]

Since chi sau is a learning exercise, why not work on what you cannot do, rather than what you can do.

[Wingman]

When learning chi sao it is advisable to have certain "rules" to avoid injuries. When I do chi sao with a partner we first agree what we can and cannot do. For example: only open palm strikes are allowed for head strikes while closed fist strikes are allowed in the body. The rules may change from partner to partner depending on the level of expertise.

[BeiKongHui]

:confused:

and we wonder why Wing Chun people can't fight.:rolleyes:

[Sihing73]

Hello BeiKongHui,

I guess some people wonder why Wing Chun people can't fight. However, I doubt that any who have met people like, Emin Boztepe, Rick Spain, Alf Debroco(sp) etc would ask the same question. Going a little further back in time to the fights in the 50's and 60's it would seem that Wing Chun established quite a reputation for "fighting". Of course today the problem could be a lack of dedicated training, I know I don't train as hard or as often as I should :( . Perhaps you could elaborate in a bit more detail as I am sure there are plenty of Wing Chun people who can fight, just as there are many who can't. Who have you trained with which leads you to this conclusion?

Peace,

Dave

[Sandman2[Wing Chun]]

Originally posted by whippinghand
Chi sau is not a fight. It is an exercise. An exercise has certain guidelines so as to optimize the benefits of that exercise.

If there are no "rules"'/guidelines in chi sau, then why not just spar?

Whipping hand has hit the nail on the head: Chi Sau is NOT sparring. Now, that doesn't mean you should neccessarily avoid any particular target, but that you should be more concerned with learning to feel openings and sense structural flaws than beating someone up. I'll aim for the head as well as the body, but I'm not trying to clobber anyone when I do so. There should be sparring, but not during Chi Sau. Just my opinion....

[TjD]

its a stepping stone to sparring

first, you start off with one handed chi sau... then you progress to two handed - now you are by no means close to sparring :)
things need to build up

then you throw in chi gerk, another exercise, NOT sparring
then you throw in various entering exercises, NOT sparring

then you spar (as far as i know)

all these various exercises lead up to you being able to fight well; and allow you to spar with your partner - and have some control (and not end up killing anyone)

i think people are very eager to think they know how to fight - and since theyve been doing wing chun for a few years (and still are only doing chi sau) they assume that thats all there is to it...

well chi sau is only two of your appendages - theres a lot more to go


peace
travis

[BeiKongHui]

Hmmm, I come to this conclusion because I have sparred or Chi sao'ed with many YM lineages and other non YM lineages. I find that those who chi sao only usually have a very unrealistic view of combat as they haven't taken the next step into sparring. The worst is people who only hit to the chest (for various reasons/excuses) when pressed with a head attack they often are unable to defend themselves because they've never had to deal with even low power attacks to the head.

For a much better and more exact argument against the use of such "rules" in Chi Sao read David Peterson's new WSL book. It pretty well spells it out for you.

Also, for those of you who are worried about rules for beginners, well of course, but that's not the point should some one with 10 years of experience still be hiding behind those rules?

Sihing-You've been around long enough to know that in reality maybe 1 in 1000 WC people have the combat skills your average MMA, boxing, Muay Thai guy has. I'm sure most of it is that most of us have jobs and can't train full time but a lot has to do with unrealistic training methods and false expectations based on the past accomplishments of our ancestors.

Tomhands-Yes, thank you. Too many people want that ideal world thing.

tjd-I would have to say that I see Chi Sao (like most everything in WC)for the whole body.

The rest of you guys keep on keepin' on.
;)

[TjD]

now... i agree somewhat
you do use the whole body in chi sau thats for sure - but you use it to fuel your hands

in the end, it only comes down to what your doing with those two appendages
even though you are using your body to back it up, you have to learn how to apply the same things to your kicks and entering skills, and headbutts, shoulders, knees, and elbows (depends), and everything not allowed by the rules in chi sau

sure it trains the whole body - but only in use of the hands

just like chi gerk trains the whole body - but in the use of the feet

if you only do chi sau, no matter how good you are it still wont give your legs any sensitivity or power, even tho you are using them to chi sau

see where im going?

peace
travis

[BeiKongHui]

tjd- Point taken.

[Sihing73]

Hello BeiKongHui,

I am not sure that I would agree with the figure 1 in 1000 as having "real combat skills". I guess we can agree that it all comes down to the manner one is taught and one practices. There are quite a few martial artists, not just Wing Chun, who never fully comprehend the combat aspects of their chosen art. The only advantage Muay Thai may have is the conditioning as a part of the training. Boxers train to give and take blows so there is contact from day one. This helps them to be realisitic as they are not unaccustomed to hitting and being hit. However, if one trains for combat then one will develope the attributes for combat.

I would tend to agree that a good percentage of Wing Chun schools do not train for combat or street situations. However, those that do can and will produce quite formidable exponents of the art. The names I mentioned previously are only a few examples of Wing Chun people who can fight. A lot will come down to the student and what they want out of the art. If they are willing to put in the effort then they can be quite as "dangerous" as any Muay Thai fighter or Boxer out there. Of course, there is also a mental aspect which comes into play as well. I have defeated more skillful people than myself due to them giving up. I remember sparring a guy with sticks; he actually disarmed me but lost because I kept fighting and he was unprepared for that. In his mind I had no weapon he had won. In my mind, I had no weapon so I fought harder. After all I want to go home at night ;).

My background may be a little different than some who take up Wing Chun. Not better or worse just different. My first Wing Chun instructor taught me to attack four target areas; 1) Eyes 2) Throat 3) Groin 4) Kneecaps. Anything else was secondary. He described Wing Chun as a posoinous snake, to be used to kill the opponent. Basically, if the threat was not great enough to kill for you had no reason to fight. After he returned to Hong Kong I entered the Army and after that worked as a Housing Police Officer in the Projects of Philly, worked in a County Prison and then as a PA State Trooper. I am certainly not the baddest person around, there are many much better than I, but I can tell you from experience that Wing Chun works! I can also tell you that my students are taught realistic techniques not crap. But again, there are many better than me around. This is why I know that just as there is bad Wing Chun there is also very good Wing Chun. Sometimes you just got to dig deeper to find it.

As to Chi Sau and the ability to fight; I have previously given my view on this. I actually, shudder to think of it :rolleyes: , agree with what Whipping Hand said, oh the pain:p . Chi Sau is not fighting. A person skilled in Chi Sau may have attributes which could carry over to make them a formidable foe but it does not mean they can fight.

Peace,

Dave

[vingtsunstudent]

BeiKongHui
'The worst is people who only hit to the chest (for various reasons/excuses) when pressed with a head attack they often are unable to defend themselves because they've never had to deal with even low power attacks to the head.'
this is a joke right.
vts

[whippinghand]

It is not the "rules" in chi sau that cloud a person's mind as to chi sau's relevance to a "real" situation, in whatever way you perceive one to be. It is the person himself, don't forget.

For those of you who see problems with rules in chi sau... what do you think the difference between sparring and chi sau should be?

As I stated in a previous post... why not train what you cannot do, as opposed to what you CAN do. Taking the head is the easiest thing to do, so why waste your training time, practising what you already know?

I recall, from previous posts addressing chi sau as an exercise, that nearly 99% of posters concurred that "chi sau is not the fight, it is an exercise". Yet, now I'm reading only 10% supporting this notion, while the others write from the standpoint of chi sau representing a fight.

What gives???

[hunt1]

I think the problem with some 'rules' is that they create tunnel vision in some.To use the hitting to the chest example in my experience many who practice this way have difficulty recognizing attacks to the head.Not all but many.I have found this in many students of a late Sifu across the country.

As to going to the head is this really so easy.I have found going low much easier than going high.People naturally defend their head face and eyes hence their focus is often on attacks to this area.They often dont even see low attacks to the ribs ,stomach etc.I have found this to be true in chi sao as well as combat.

I am not saying rules are right or wrong and there are many things to train in chi sao but at some time chi sao training must allow for attacks to all areas of the body so that responses to all possible avenues of attack can be trained.

[Nichiren]

I have a problem with the posts. Are we talking about beginners, intermediate or advanced practitioners of WC. I can understand that when you get advanced the "rules" in chi-sao aren't applicable because of the wide array of techniques used but how about beginners and intermediate?

[Nat from UK]

I have a copy of some "Rules" for a Chi Sau competition held in China. This had comprehensive rules and a full points scoring system.

Is this what you are referring to in the original post??

Nat from UK

[vt108]

"As to going to the head is this really so easy.I have found going low much easier than going high.People naturally defend their head face and eyes hence their focus is often on attacks to this area.They often dont even see low attacks to the ribs ,stomach etc.I have found this to be true in chi sao as well as combat. "

Hello all! This is my first post so I will be gentle :)
In my opinion hitting the chest of the partner who is trained to keep the center all the time is much harder then hitting the head. His elbows are in the center (almost at the chest height) so if you can hit him in this area hitting the head becomes much easier.
The other reason for hitting the chest is you practice all muscles used in Ving Tsun much better at this height. You can use waist easier, especially if you are not experienced.
In combat you can just change an angle a little to hit to the head. People often make mistake of starting the punch much higher at the beginning instead of change an angle of the punch.
Just my opinion.

[TjD]

"The other reason for hitting the chest is you practice all muscles used in Ving Tsun much better at this height. You can use waist easier, especially if you are not experienced. "

not to be mean since its your first post but striking isnt about muscles ;) a beginner should be taught so they can find proper structure.. and if one has proper structure, striking to the head or to the chest doesnt matter

another point worth mentioning, is that chi sau is NOT full contact (at least in my school)... it isnt training you to be able to knock someone unconcious (you have the wooden dummy for that)
you also dont want to kill your kung fu brothers :) learning proper sensitivity for beginners is extremely important, and when you chi sau full power, for a beginner things are harder to feel, not only that they can get defensive or angry and then you have to deal with all sorts of other emotions
so if its not full contact; head or chest (as long as your not doing biu jee strikes to the eyes or fists to the temples/nose), does it really matter?


peace
travis

[vt108]

"not to be mean since its your first post but striking isnt about muscles "

Yes I know that. But if you think your muscles doesn't work even when you are relaxed you are wrong. If you start your VT training and your muscles are not tired you practice the wrong way.
We have to make our muscles work in the same movement over and over again and this is why your muscle becomes relaxed and strong in the same time. You can not (in my opinion) learn VT without your muscles getting tired unless you never practiced with someone with a perfect center.
Do you suggest that when beginner starts VT training he doesn't have to put his hand in the center because his muscles tense? If so he will not learn VT at all.

[TjD]

of course you have to hold your arm up somehow, but the use of muscles (at least in your arms) is EXTREMELY secondary to structure when your generating power in your punch

making it easier for a student to depend on his arm muscles to throw a punch would not be helpful, esp if the student is a beginner


peace
travis

[vt108]

I did not say a student has to depend on his arm muscles. Of course he has to concentrate on the good structure of the movement. I say when he does it his muscles will tense (if he starts VT training) if he wants it or not. Telling student that he has to be relaxed from the beginning at all costs will make him to be of center because he doesn't want to be tense. This makes his center weak. He is not able to make a perfect center at the beginning without tense (unless it's a women or someone who has natural ability to do that). Relaxation comes with training the same movement over and over again. It is very important to try to relax when you are already very tired. First you have to make your center perfect, later you have to relax as much as you can. The next step in my opinion is to make a great strength with your perfect and relaxed center.
Remember, VT movements are not very natural for the human body. We are used to move in a little different way. Thats way making these movements over and over again is so important: to make them natural for us. For example turning the toes in, pusching the waist all the time, making our elbow to be in center all the time etc. These are not natural movements for every men. This is why our muscles are not prepared for this kind of movement.

[TjD]

i've found that most people have trouble being in the center for the opposite reason, because they are tense, and not flexible enough to be there

telling them to relax helps them get to the center (relaxed muscles are more flexable than tense ones)

i believe having a student be tense is definately against all of what wing chun is about, if your tense you cannot find your structure because your muscles are holding you back

im not quite sure what your getting at, because first you say that you need to be tense, then you say relaxation is extremely important.. having someone be tense will only instil bad tendencies in them

relaxation does not come with repeition, it comes with being relaxed :) repetition done the wrong way can even make things worse, especially if the person doesnt know to be relaxed while doing the repetition :) all repitition does is make whatever movement your practicing more natural - if your not practicing being relaxing, youll never be relaxed

strength comes from your structure; and you find your structure from being relaxed

in chi sau you need to learn which positions you can have structure in, and which ones dont; when you have no structure you need to "not be there while being there" for your opponent to off balance, or hit - you cant have perfect structure 100% of the time

structure is not always in the center; it depends on how your body is lined up

as to the movements not being natural, i find wing chun to be extremely natural to for me... but i may be unique, who knows :)

at any rate, being tense only teaches you to be tense in the future - this is a bad thing

peace
travis

[vt108]

In which part of my message I told we should teach the student to be tensed? I said that when a student makes a perfect center at the beginning he is tensed (we do not teach him to be tensed). Like I also said there are some people who have natural ability to be in the center without any tension (and thisi is very very good). All I say is the most people are tensed beiing in the center (when they start VT) and they have to practice in THIS center though they are tensed. Of course they have to relax as much as they can (like I told before) and this can help them to have a better center.

[TjD]

allright then :) i totally agree with that

peace
travis

[Marek]

I'm new. I hit the chest when i could hit higher. I know if i'm inches down the chest that's a whole lot of distance their hand would have had to amke up to stop me hitting their face. If my attack would only just hit the head i don't consider to have achieved my goal of opening up my oponent. Chi sau is not about sniping. Too many students take a sneaky quick slap to the outer regions of a defence and consider themselves to have 'scored'. I feel myself to have failed unless i manipulate myself into a position whereby i can not only land one shot, but i can follow it up without fear of reprisal and to a significant area of the oponent. This normally involves me hitting the chest.
--
maz

[TjD]

but if you can hit the head without fear of reprisal, i'd say that would be fine too - one must learn to defend their head

one move i used to use a lot was to bring my elbow over my opponents arm, to drop a backfist onto their face, which i could promptly follow up with a lop to their other arm and a palm strike to the temple (all done controlled as to not knock them out :) )

after which they were usually a bit dazed and definately off balance, and i totally had them in my control

i definately thing gaining control of the chi sau is a more appropriate goal then scoring a hit, however i dont think it matters if your strikes are to the head, or to the chest (or lower chest)


peace
travis

[[Censored]]

i definately thing gaining control of the chi sau is a more appropriate goal then scoring a hit, however i dont think it matters if your strikes are to the head, or to the chest (or lower chest)

If the opponent's arms are wide and outside, you can do whatever you want.

If they are inside, and you want to maintain contact, you will strike without abandoning those arms. More often then not, this means you hit the chest or abdomen. Otherwise, you increase the risk of exchanging blows, rather than just giving them. Make sense?

[[Censored]]

Sihing-You've been around long enough to know that in reality maybe 1 in 1000 WC people have the combat skills your average MMA, boxing, Muay Thai guy has. I'm sure most of it is that most of us have jobs and can't train full time but a lot has to do with unrealistic training methods and false expectations based on the past accomplishments of our ancestors

I went to watch a MMA class a few weeks ago, to try and gauge their "average" combat skills. Little balance or coordination, bad position and timing, etc. It seems that most of them have day jobs too. :)

[BeiKongHui]

I find it funny that my comments about shots to the head have drawn so much ire. What's even more interesting is that I was speaking more of defending than attacking. I don't try to "score" in Chi Sao (don't have the competitive American genes) but I want my training to be useful and realistic. Due to injury I've lost vision in one eye and it's going away in the other one so I need that Chi Sao "auto pilot" as some call it plus I need to be able to fight blind by contact only which I can. Chi Sao enabled me to do this but if my first teacher had only used the chest as some sort of target then I would've been screwed because like many others I've worked out with I would've never learned to defend my head properly.


vingtsunstudent- I wish I was joking but experience has shown me to be correct.

hunt1- I too have had this experience and I believe with the same group.

whippinghand-don't go gettin all wordy on us now ;) -What is the difference between Chi Sao and sparring? Chi Sao is a non competitive exercise while sparring is meant to be competitive and stressful and should involve all 4 ranges of combat. I personally don't believe Chi Sao is fighting but then neither is hubud, etc. yet the way in which they are trained can make you or break you in a fight.

SiHing- Of course there are excellent WC fighters out there. Some on this very list but I fear the overall quality is hovering dangerously near McKwoon level. I love WC and personally believe it to be the one of the best martial systems around but I think we all need to walk the walk if we're going to talk the talk. A good WC guy can hold his own or defeat a boxer, MT player for sure - the systems that good, and no it wouldn't require any eye gouging, groin kicking, etc. I believed you metioned Bozetepe as an example of a good WC fighter (which he is). He's a big powerful fighter with soft hands but then I'm sure you are aware of his training history and his vast cross training experience so he can no more represent the average WC person anymore that Rickson Gracie represents the averagee BJJ guy.

Thanks for the lively debate everyone!:)

[yuanfen]

BeiKongHui:
1. some comments on your last post. Given your vision problems- wing chun is the perfect art- it really develops reflexive skills. One of my students has major accident related vision problems- but his self defense skills developed through wing chun dedication are superb. With 3 years of deicated practise his skills are superior to many who have done it for a decade or more. The problem is that many wing chun folks do more talking
than practicing.

2. At the top levels wing chun is in good hands but at the current median and mean levels the art is pretty poory represented....results of mass production, lack of dedication and poor teaching IMO.

3. Chi sao is not sparring. It is actually better than what is normally called sparring.

4. Beginning to first trying to get through at chest center level is good for learning controls---then when sufficient control is developed one can go to many places- just like driving.

[whippinghand]

In Siu Lim Tao, what is the highest point, relative to yourself, that your hand ever reaches (in height). Let's say the wrist, to be more specific. But if you prefer a different part of the hand, as your reference, that's fine too.

[TjD]

for us, eye height - double biu sau

peace
trav

[Ish]

eye height for me too

[TjD]

[censored]:
If the opponent's arms are wide and outside, you can do whatever you want.

If they are inside, and you want to maintain contact, you will strike without abandoning those arms. More often then not, this means you hit the chest or abdomen. Otherwise, you increase the risk of exchanging blows, rather than just giving them. Make sense?

****
well, not nesecarily ;) if the opponents arms are wide and ouside - then you already have control :)

striking to the head can be done while still having control of your opponent (or the situation), by closing the gap you can effectively pin his arms between your bodies; or many times you can gain control of two arms with your one

its not too much harder to hit to the head without fear of retaliation


peace
travis

[TjD]

yuanfen:
3. Chi sao is not sparring. It is actually better than what is normally called sparring.

****

chi sau is not better than sparring - you cant learn to fight from only chi sau... its merely a stepping stone to learning how to fight using wing chun

if your opponent is 4 feet away from you, and you must fight him; how is your chi sau going to help you?
it doenst teach you how to close that distance; and if you get clocked in the head while trying to because your chi sau didnt teach you it; well it was worthless now wasnt it?
what if someone kicks you? how is your chi sau going to help?

i totally disagree with that statement

peace
travis

[Nichiren]

I totally agree with TjD!

chi sau is not better than sparring - you cant learn to fight from only chi sau... its merely a stepping stone to learning how to fight using wing chun

[tnwingtsun]

>I believed you metioned Bozetepe as an example of a good WC fighter (which he is). He's a big powerful fighter with soft hands but then I'm sure you are aware of his training history and his vast cross training experience<


He dosen't use his cross training to fight,he uses WT and WT only.





>so he can no more represent the average WC person anymore that Rickson Gracie represents the averagee BJJ guy.<


Agreed,but when you train with him he drives you to be a skilled fighter,not your average "WC guy"

[BeiKongHui]

He dosen't use his cross training to fight,he uses WT and WT only.

Yes, he does. Everytime he sees a karateka chamber a kick or shift the hip in a certain way his karate cross training comes into effect and he employes his WT to counter a (to him) predictable technique. His wrestling abilities give him an edge against a grappler that other WT people don't have. Also, before you go all fundie ;) on me let me state that I have been to some of Emin's seminars and trained WT for a while way "back in the day. "

[vingtsunstudent]

tjd
'chi sau is not better than sparring - you cant learn to fight from only chi sau... its merely a stepping stone to learning how to fight using wing chun'
when my sifu was trained by wong shun leung to fight challenge matches he went from chi sao to fighting without the use of sparring.
sparring will develop more bad habits than good & good chi sao will develop better fighters than sparring.chi sao is more than just training with a partner it is about training your mind as well & it is this mindset that can bridge the gap.

'if your opponent is 4 feet away from you, and you must fight him; how is your chi sau going to help you?
it doenst teach you how to close that distance; and if you get clocked in the head while trying to because your chi sau didnt teach you it; well it was worthless now wasnt it?
what if someone kicks you? how is your chi sau going to help?'
well i geuss fortunately for us in the wong lineage that in chi sao we practice what we call stepping. this practice again may aslo come to mind set in that you are bridging the gap & not already in contact with the person, but the awsome power & speed of your movements(esp. the waist which drives your foward movement) developed through stepping with a partner mean that you can learn to bridge quite well, then there is the factors of training your stepping at 45% degree angles so that when you move in you can cut off your opponents options.
as for kicks the stepping in action again generally nulifies this but this is too basic to even offer a response.
i don't mean to be rude but these pionts you have provided would lead just about anyone with a decent knowledge of chi sao to believe that you need to train & understand your art a little better.
vts

[CanadianBadAss]

Sparring is useless for a WC player who hasnt reached a certain level. If a newbie(to WC) were to spar he would get dominated by the guy who has been practicing wing chun longer, and had more Chi sao experience. And the newbie would end up tryning to stay back, and not let the gap close, and would just hurt his wing chun in the long run... To reach that "certain level" you you must practice lots of chi sao... So I you can't really compare Chi sao and sparring... they're both just "drills" that help you prapare for the real thing. But for WC, I would have to say Chi sao is better then sparring, because if you spend all your time sparring and no chi sao, you'll end up with some other fighting style that won't really be WC, and if you spend all your time doing chi sao you should still be doing WC even if you do get your ass kicked.

[saulauchung]

Guys, what is the difference between gor-sau in chi-sau and sparring? Are they not in fact two of the same thing? Gor-sau means the "comparing of hands" and isn't sparring the testing of fighting skills between two persons? Sparring and gor-sau can take the forms of full contact and stopping upon impact. The misunderstanding occurs when some group has lost the gor-sau aspect in chi-sau and only occupy themselves with luk-sau and poon-sau.

Gor-sau in turn can take the form of long and short range. In long range, you learn to close the distance and in short range you train your sensitivity, amongst other things. Long and short range exist together because you cannot have one without the other, otherwise, your training will not be complete and you cannot flow from one range to another.

Chi-sau takes the form of poon-sau to luk-sau, and when the pattern is disrupted, gor-sau takes over. If the distance between the two persons are increased, long range gor-sau comes in, and once the gap's been closed, short range gor-sau resumes.

Between fellow Wing Chunners, I prefer to use the term 'gor-sau', but against other styles, I would use the term 'sparring'.

:cool: