Any boxers here doing Wing Chun?

[straight blast]

I did a class yesterday & man is my boxing training stuffing me up. I like to throw my shoulder behind punches (for that little bit extra :D ) but I find that it is not structurally sound to do this as you immediately lose your square-on stance & overcommit to the strike. Any one else had this problem? I probably only got it right after about 30 attempts but I must admit it felt pretty good after I got it right.
I trained alongside this guy who just kept me constantly off balance every time I tried to overcommit. Though saying that, as a boxer I don't overcommit a great deal, but compared to a Wing Chun punch the boxing strikes tend to leave you a little overextended and easy to manipulate. He had lots of fun with me.
I love the learning experience...:D

[CanadianBadAss]

I know sharky does some boxing. I was going to go check out a boxing school the other day, but turned out to be a kick boxing school...

[Nichiren]

I have trained booth boxing and WC. My experience is that it is the foot-work thats not compatible. In boxing you are up on you toes constantly moving in-out and sideways throwing punches. In WC you square of and thus locking the hips. The foot-work gets sort of one-dimensional and the punches are not thrown from the hip anymore.

The main problem for me coming from boxing to WC was adapting to the WC foot-work. Man, did I get thrashed by my sihings in the begining.... :)

[Sharky]

you right, it's the total difference in foot work that messes me up. I need to improve my boxing footwork a lot.

CBA, i box now, as in, that's my only " art ". Feels like a shame 'giving up' wing chun but there is no wing chun round here. Maybe when i finish university in 2 1/2 years i can start up again.

[straight blast]

How long did you do Wing Chun for? How do you find the handwork suitable for boxing? Have you been able to use any of your WC stuff in boxing sparring yet?
And most importantly (and also the most difficult) do you find it hard not to use your legs when sparring? I got in heaps of s**t one night when I blocked a boxer's right cross to my abdomen with my knee...I was just under pressure, & it was instinctive.
Let us know how you go...:)

[hughes]

Hey straight blast you started training full time yet? How are you funding it? (it is you thats training FT soon isnt it? if not n/m)

[straight blast]

Yeah, that's me. I haven't started yet as the term doesn't start until Feb 28. I'm also having some hassles with cash, but at this point all is looking good. I've moved to the Coast (been here a week & it kicks a**) and started dropping in to lessons every chance I get.

The people who run the course up here (Instructor Grant Mathers) have been as helpful as they possibly could be, putting up with my many questions and many phone calls as I try to get my act together. The classes I have attended have been really good, and I would definately reccomend this course to anyone who's interested. My Brother in Law is going to do the course also, so I'll have a training partner outside of class times.

When you asked "How am I funding it" did you mean funding, or was that a typo for "finding"? Funding is coming from Austudy (or Youth Allowance or whatever the hell it's called). This is a good thing.
Anyhow I'll keep ya's in the loop...:cool:

[Sharky]

Hi. I studied wing chun for 2 years, longer if you consider the times between schools. anyway no, i did not find using strict wing chun is good in the ring, you can't generate enough power without commiting. You'll find that people with no experience will be punching harder than you. Mainly cos they put more into it (read by wing chunners as " over commit " ). Basically, when you're ina boxing ring, the most efficient way to fight (using just your arms) is to box. Otherwise they'd be doing whatever it is that is better than boxing.

Yes i have real troubles with the footwork.

"In WC you square of and thus locking the hips. The foot-work gets sort of one-dimensional and the punches are not thrown from the hip anymore. "

This is so true. I found it hard to generate power as my punches all came from using just arm strength. My turning and internal punches were nullified by gloves, plus they can't beat a good hook cross or uppercut. I find it hard delivering a GOOD right cross cos i can't get my hips into it. One good thing is being slightly more square on. I'm not getting run rings around even by those with the fancy foot work - he wing chun footwork servers me well, but i have problems with the physics involved with generating power from punches, using the mechanics of the boxing system. I will have to adapt. With time, i will be more of a boxer, and less and less of a CMA. :(

I still practice on my wallbag, chain punches and basic strikes, and i play with some blocks. I have stopped doing SLT basically and obviously i do no chi sau. I miss chi sau. I just want to poon sau for a bit :(

Ho hum at least i am a double hard ******* now.

[dezhen2001]

i did karate and boxing for about 4 years before i found Wing Chun. The way you punch and the footwork was a big problem - but then again, my boxing wasn't very good (i did karate boxing :D). My punching was lightly more rigid than the person who just did boxing, though i could 'dance' like the rest of them! I've spent this last 18 months trying to forget all my previous martial arts conditioning, it's really hard!

Now i do WC i find the footowrk for that difficult! Everyone says it's a 'simple' style, but d a m n! I guess it's because i don't get much chance to play Chi Sau. Doing only SLT can really make u stiff when doing chi sau :D

david

[Nichiren]

I had such a hard time adjusting from boxing to WC. Take a simple thing as when a boxer gets hit hard his first rection is to close the distance, not back away. What happens? Blunt trauma to the base of the skull in form of multiple elbows thrown, ouch! I got kicked in the balls so often that my kids probably will have evolved a protective cup from birth.

Nowadays I find my experience really useful. I can switch between the two styles without any problems and confuse the hell out of my sparring partners. Trying to mix both similary is a disaster though.... :D Boxing is not good to use close distance when fighting a WC practitioner.

[straight blast]

"I got kicked in the balls so often that my kids probably will have evolved a protective cup from birth."

You crack me up. That's the funniest thing I've heard all week.

Sharky, how do you think things would be if you were allowed to fight with the gloves off? Do you think your WC punching would be a little more effective if it didn't have 16 ounces protecting the other guy? The reason I ask is 'cos I find that my WC punching is p*ss weak compared to my boxing punching. However, as I've only done a couple of classes I expect this to be so. My teacher's WC punching however is much more powerful than my boxing punch, and he is smaller than me. What do you reckon? I'm gonna have to go back & spar my Muay Thai buddies at some point, and I'd like to have a few surprises for them!

[dzu]

"In WC you square of and thus locking the hips. The foot-work gets sort of one-dimensional and the punches are not thrown from the hip anymore. "

This is why your WC punch is weaker than your boxing punch. The hips and pelvis are not 'locked' and the foot work is not one-dimensional in WC. Contrary to the above statement, the pelvis and hips play a very significant role in the generation, direction, and sinking of power. If your hip and pelvis are locked into a fixed position, you cannot utilize the full potential of your body and the ground. WC power is NOT found in the shoulders, chest, and/or arms.

Dzu

[fa_jing]

I agree with Dzu. You are supposed to turn your hips and shoulders when you punch. Your WC punches should be as strong as the equivalent boxing punches, although the source of the power comes a little more from a moving stance and a little less from twisting the waist like in boxing. The main thing, and it goes for boxing too, is not to coc-k your hands before your strike (throwing from Mississippi), not to over extend (you might get swept, thrown, or just knocked over. Take your WC punches to a heavy bag and tear that **** up, man.
-FJ

[Nichiren]

Dzu; I train WT and we have almost all our weight on the back leg. I do think other WC/WT/VT styles have an easier time adapting coming from boxing due to their more neutral stance.

And come on! Do you really think WC punches are as hard and snappy as boxing punches? You must be dreaming... :confused:

[stuartm]

I love Wing Chun - but i would have to say that boxing is the ultimate MA, and boxers are the ultimate martial artists.

Cheers !

[dzu]

Nichiren,

If you use the body correctly and don't just hit with the arms and shoulders, why wouldn't you have the same power avaialble to you?

Let me ask you this question: Where does the power in boxing come from? Where does it come from in WCK?

Dzu

[yuanfen]

stuartm sez:I love Wing Chun - but i would have to say that boxing is the ultimate MA, and boxers are the ultimate martial
artists.
---------------------------------------
If you really believe that- you should do boxing.Why are you doing or talking about wing chun. Boxing is a tough sport. But good wing chun isnt a sport...
and in all likelihood you have not had MUCH exposure to first rate
wing chun.
Wing chun has spread so fast and is mass produced-the quality is really diluted from what I have seen over the years. First rate boxing or wrestling is better than third rate wing chun. So most folks with comments like yours above should probably exit from wing chun. Good wing chun on the other hand is a great and comprehensive martial art.

[Cipher]

Originally posted by Nichiren
Dzu; I train WT and we have almost all our weight on the back leg. I do think other WC/WT/VT styles have an easier time adapting coming from boxing due to their more neutral stance.

And come on! Do you really think WC punches are as hard and snappy as boxing punches? You must be dreaming... :confused:

If done like it should be then this statement is wrong. In Wing Chun you don't just stand there and punch, you sink your gravity and torque with it. Even when you chain punch you can get some torque in it. Chain punches are fast as heck and can give decent punishment. Get a good chain puncher to come at you full speed and full force and you will not be able to stop it front on fist to fist. I have had this done to me several times and it really
p i s s es me off, but makes me want to get better at it.

[fa_jing]

The proof is in the pudding. Walk over to the heavy bag. I said that WC punches are as strong as the equivalent boxing punches, in other words punches that travel over the same distance. Not to say that a lead punch is the same power as a haymaker. I find it perfectly feasible to rock the bag hard with my WC power shots. BTW, I think a lot of the force is from pure muscular strength, sorry to disagree. Aided by correct mechanics. One thing you have to remember is that in WC, the shoulder doesn't extend away from the torso, but, you still turn the shoulder along with the rest of your torso and your shoulder is low and behind the punch, with the elbow down. Also, rather than planting your feet early and moving your body weight forward onto the lead leg when you hit, like in boxing, your still stepping forward with your weight pretty balanced and don't plant you stepping foot until the moment of impact.

About the chain punches: Doesn't this expose the midsection?
We train to get that kick up there pretty fast.

Just my opinions
-FJ

[Cipher]

Originally posted by fa_jing
About the chain punches: Doesn't this expose the midsection?
We train to get that kick up there pretty fast.

Well, if you can nail the person before they start to chain punch then I think it would help to prvent or mess up their plan. The only problem is if they are well versed in Chung then chances are they may be able to block or counter your kick, Having your standing knee snapped would really suck, but on the same side if you have trainned well then it just depends. When you chain punch you don't necesarily open your self up, you alternate left-right-left-right keeping your selfe covered up, also if you keep your elbows in then it will help to cover you also with out loosing any power.

Now of course anytime you attack someone you open yourself up to some degree so there are weaknesses with any attack, but try doing correct chain punches and then throwing a cross and see what leaves you open more.

Don't get me wrong I train in boxing also and I find it extremely useful it has many good attacks and foot work. A full blast rareing back John Wayne style punch will rock you hard but by the time the person goes back and punches he will have a face full of fists.

[Nichiren]

I think it is almost impossible to compare boxing with WC. Either you do boxing or else you do WC. This has to do with the rules impossed on boxers. I started WC because of the aggressive effectiveness and because of less chance of injury. In a selfdefense situation I would choose WC over boxing any time. If I have to choose a form of boxing I would choose Thai but I have done that and the injury risk is just to high.

Dzu; I do not think it is possible to achieve the same power in the WC punches as in boxing. A boxer doesn't have to look out for elbows, knees etc. as in WC and can concentrate on throwing punches. It is what they do and they do it good.

[stuartm]

I do love WC and have trained it for some time. It is an excellent self defence system for your average scrap on the street.

I think it is you who knows little about boxing. Apart from having excellent footwork, a boxer will give you no space whatsoever - even to close for many WC attacks. Another advantage is that boxers can take a real beating as well as dish one out - every time they train they are battered - they are real fighters. You need to wake up and know the limitations of your art.

Finally, I have trained Ip Chun and Ip Ching lineage, from Sifus who are very close to the men themselves, and in associations where both the above have approved all the sifus.

Regards, Stuart

[yuanfen]

Stuartm's comments followed by mine in beackets:

I do love WC and have trained it for some time. It is an excellent self defence system for your average scrap on the street.

((If you dont have more confidence in wing chun than that,
it will abandon you))Joy

I think it is you who knows little about boxing.

((Factual error. Understandable on the net))Joy

Apart from having excellent footwork, a boxer will give you no space whatsoever - even to close for many WC attacks.

((Good wing chun has very good footwork and doublesided too.
I understand about boxer's space.Wing chun is better rooted than boxing-insurance aginst falling. Actually nothing is too close for good wing chun-but it takes time and practice to do that))Joy

Another advantage is that boxers can take a real beating as well as dish one out - every time they train they are battered - they are real fighters.
((True. But with enough wing chun two or more person work
you close that gap without getting beaten up as much. Getting beaten up has diminishing returns over time))Joy

You need to wake up and know the limitations of your art.
((I am wide awake evn with my eyes shut))Joy

Finally, I have trained Ip Chun and Ip Ching lineage, from Sifus who are very close to the men themselves, and in associations where both the above have approved all the sifus.

((I dont know your sifus and I am not easily impressed by name dropping. But ultimately your own development is the key and
if you dont develop complete confidence in wing chun Plan B
might be better.))Joy

[vt108]

I agree with yuanfen. VT is not for average scrap on the street. It is a comprehensive martial art. Wong Shun Leung said in one of his interviews (not exact words) "Wing Chun is so good that there is almost nothing to correct" I think he knew what he was talking about. Don't you think? His fights proved that VT works against all styles (good VT of course).
With regard to footwork VT has great footwork. This is one of the most important factors in a real fight. If you can not move you can not hit hard. You can have the best punch in the world but without footwork it means nothing. This is why we spend so much time practising footwork (some lineages at least).
Boxers can take a real beating like any other martial artist who practice well. This is why your punch has to be very good, not to the surface of the opponent but through him.
Boxers do not use the entire body in the fight. Vt does.

[dzu]

THe source of power for boxing and WC have nothing to do with the number of techniques within the system. If you don't know where the power comes from and cannot functionally use it, then every technique will be inefficient.

Dzu

[Cipher]

Sorry but I had to chime in here.

I do love WC and have trained it for some time. It is an excellent self defence system for your average scrap on the street.

WC is much more than an average art. It has been proven as an effective system. WC is much more useful for self defense than straight up boxing. This is pretty obvious.

I think it is you who knows little about boxing. Apart from having excellent footwork, a boxer will give you no space whatsoever - even to close for many WC attacks.

I don't know if this is directed to me or not but here goes. Since I have been training I have incorporated boxing along with other arts into my training, boxing has good points but there are many advantages of WC. How many times have you actually fought a boxer? Do you know how to brake a knee, tackle, elbow, sweep, kick the thigh ect.ect. These are very useful. If a WCer stands toe to toe with a boxer using boxing rules then the boxer has the advantage, but we are not talking about WC fighting in a boxing match. One of the main point in WC in the close in fighting if you train in Chung then you should know this very well. What do you think the trapping, closing and the amount of hand strikes are for? WC uses mostly hands with some of the best realistic kicking I have seen.

Another advantage is that boxers can take a real beating as well as dish one out - every time they train they are battered - they are real fighters. You need to wake up and know the limitations of your art.

This kind of statement just confuses me because all of the martial artists that I know train hard with contact. We use gloves and head gear not to count the simple toughness training. Here you should try it some it's really fun.
Stand next to partner, left shoulder to his right shoulder grab each others arms and take turn kicking the meaty part of the leg. Now, this can be altered for all kinds of different training fun kicking, punching throwing. I'm not saying that boxers don't build toughness because they do. But Kungfu has some of the most gruesome toughening methods that you will never see a boxer do. Have you ever done research on how they train in China? These methods have been carried over to America by the way. Again if you are into Kungfu you should know this.

Finally, I have trained Ip Chun and Ip Ching lineage, from Sifus who are very close to the men themselves, and in associations where both the above have approved all the sifus.

I have no idea what this should prove. So I won't comment on it.

[LEGEND]

I have trained in wing and switched to boxing...no big deal...it's the individual and what he does naturally. Boxing came more natural to me than wing chun...and so I would use boxing more in self defense. However would love to see FULL CONTACT WING CHUN FIGHTs...anyone has any tapes???

[straight blast]

Another advantage is that boxers can take a real beating as well as dish one out

Too true. Just out of curiosity though, have you ever put a roundkick into a boxer's thigh? Have you ever joint locked one of his arms and pounded the crap out of him? Those 16oz gloves hurt when you get hit with them, but nowhere near as much a bare fist.
Boxing is a top notch sport. And for arms only fighting it is my weapon of choice (until I get a bit better at some of the aspects of WC). I've looked at Mike Tyson many times & thought, "Yeah, he's tough. But I wonder if he could take a thigh kick from Peter Aerts or Ernesto Hoost or those guys".

The feeling of getting hit with a glove is nothing to the feeling of your nose shattering under someone's knuckles. :D

[Nichiren]

Peter Aerts and Ernesto Hoost are top notch boxers. Bad example...

[straight blast]

Actually they are top notch kickboxers. The reason I chose to use these two fellas is because they are well known kickboxers. I don't know how many boxing titles they hold, but I know that Peter Aerts has a leg kick like you would not believe.

Bad Example?

How about Rob Kaman? His leg kicks made many a training partner ache for days afterwards...and they were just holding the pads. He didn't get the nickname "The Mule" for nothing.

Better example? :rolleyes:

[straight blast]

Actually they are top notch kickboxers. The reason I chose to use these two fellas is because they are well known kickboxers. I don't know how many boxing titles they hold, but I know that Peter Aerts has a leg kick like you would not believe.

Bad Example?

How about Rob Kaman? His leg kicks made many a training partner ache for days afterwards...and they were just holding the pads. He didn't get the nickname "The Mule" for nothing.

Better example? :rolleyes:

[greedy]

After a brief, rather unspectacular amateur boxing career (21 from 24), I made the big switch to wc. I found myself a good school, with a sifu who used to box as well, and so got some understanding about the problems I had converting across.

Things I noticed when first starting:

1. Early hand speed stopped me from progressing as fast as I would have liked. I could hide a lack of technical wc proficiency in a hail of good punches. It has literally taken me years to catch up on the little details I missed early on.

2. As said in an earlier post, dropping your body forward and to one side as a reflex to being hit results in a sore noggin' from knee strikes.

3. changing the angle of the lead leg/foot to 45 degrees took forever. Tend to learn a bit faster the third or fourth time you are stopped in your tracks with a foot on the knee.....

4. It takes most pure wc guys a long time to be able to effectively handle a good, tight lead hook, especially if thrown off the jab. I guess this has to do with emphasising striaght line hitting.

Why did I change to wc? Try turning up to teach a class of fifteen year olds and having to explain a black eye and stitches....

Cheers.

[Roy D. Anthony]

I have also trained in both. What I have found is that there is no difference. The difference is in the training method. The Boxing trainer I had taught the same principles that I learned in WC. Power did come from the hip, and the punches aside from some slight differences i.e., reverse punch, hook, upper cut, were about the same. Footwork is the same as Wing Chun, aspecially at the higher levels. The trick is being able to see the similarities. Hope this helps.