Backfist

[chen zhen]

In James Lee's Wing Chun book he says that the backfist does not exist in traditional Wing Chun, and that he uses it in the book because of Bruce Lee's influence on him. Is that true?

[yuxiang]

I took it to mean it was from his Sil Lum teacher's influence. At the beginning of the book, he talks about taking Sil Lum for three and a half years in San Francisco.
This book is very good, I like it a lot.
What I find interesting is the rumor that Bruce wrote the book, but gave the credit to J. Yimm Lee because he was ill. You can check this (http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=www.jkd.com.hk/Chi/Photo_Gallery/images/james_y3_big.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.jkd.com.hk/Eng/Photo_Gallery/Photo_JamesLee.htm&h=502&w=800&prev=/images%3Fq%3DJames%2BYimm%2BLee%2B%26num%3D20) link for a lighthearted shot from the photo session in the book. Who's the guy on the left??

[Sam]

In Fut Sao Wing Chun Kuen as taught by James Cama Sifu The backfist is taught but not as shown by Bruce or James Lee. The Fut Sao backfist is done at a very narrow angle resembling the straight punch. It is also done vertically with a torking, twisting motion. www.buddhapalm.com

[yuanfen]

IMO- the commonly known backfist is not a fundamental motion in Yip man Wing Chun and is a bad idea against someone who knows how to close. Of course against dunderheads many things can work. I dont think that you will find anything approaching the backfist in any of the Yip man wing chun forms. I am not talking about the chum kiu upper cut or the hammer fist or the fok sao bridge motions..

[S.Teebas]

..and the fact that you need to use muscle to get any power from it (it no structure behind a backfist) also shows why it is not in WC.

[anerlich]

For my money, the mechanics of the backfist are pretty similar to the side palm strike except for the position of the wrist and hand.

One of my instructors used to regularly break 8 untreated roof tiles with a backfist, which to my mind tends to override the notions of some regarding "no power".

[S.Teebas]

similar...except for the position

You said it, position.


One of my instructors used to regularly break 8 untreated roof tiles with a backfist, which to my mind tends to override the notions of some regarding "no power".

We didn't say it had no power, but we are talking about effortless power. Two VERY different things.

[anerlich]

You said it, position.

Jeez, ya got me. I DID say that! Well spotted!

I actually said "except for the position OF THE WRIST AND HAND".

So take your side palm strike, per the dummy sets. Fire it from whatever stance you use.

Now do the same, but close the fist. Side hammer fist.

Now do the same, but rotate the forearm so that the back of the hand is facing the target. Add a snap of the wrist at the end if you wish, though it ain't mandatory, just like the snap upward of the wrist in a straight punch ain't mandatory.

The stance upper body mechanics, everything but the position of the forearm wrist and hand are the same. Where exactly does the "politically correct WC structure" get "violated"?


We didn't say it had no power, but we are talking about effortless power.

To quote that immortal line from one of the Dirty Harry movies, "who's WE, sucker?" I don't see any earlier posters discussing "effortless power", other than you.

"Effortless power" is a misnomer. All movement requires some energy - if you disagree take it up with messrs Newton and Einstein, not me.

I hope you're not saying that because my teacher could break a quantity of tiles with a strike that he can't use "effortless power".

If you are talking about biomechaincal efficiency using structure and storing and releasing elastic energy rather than using arm power, I contend that you can throw backfists, hook puinches, uppercuts, etc. this way as well. An "effortless" backfist will use whipping energy gained by loading at the hips and shoulder, similarly to the side palm strike.

If you can't do a backfist with "effortless power", then IMO you can't do a side palm strike that way either. So following your argument, the side palm strike has no place in WC. Hey.....

WC is an extensible framework, not a set of laws written on stone tablets. I've used Wing Chun structure and concepts in BJJ.

How about giving up the snappy one line information free comebacks? People will think Whipping Hand has cracked your password and is imp'ing you.

[yuanfen]

Actually Whipping Hand has been relatively quiet lately. IMO, his
posts while they are not dissertations are often to the point and the questioning style appears to result in more posts by others- some thoughtful- than otherwise.
Regarding why the back fist is not the best thing to use by wing chun folks- a brief opinion rather than an elaborate essay.
This is not "political correctness" or sifu sez but based both on concepts and experience.
1. A good wing chun straight punch should beat a back fist most of the time. In my own experience it has been every time.Wado Ryu motions are faster than shotokan. In the late seventies I used to often spar without gloves with a very competent black belt whose forte was the back fist. he was one of Dr Otska's
(founder of Wado Ryu).My straight wing chun punch both blocked
his back fist and hit him almost simultaneously- every time.
A wing chun bath is shorter than that of a back fist. The black belt was fast and he also could break things with his back fist.
2. If you need a slightly different angle there is another punch
in the chum kiu portfolio- we call it an inside whipping punch- which lands on the fist, rather than the back of the fist and which requires less space, length or even a trace of an arc than the back fist. But good chum kiu chor ma
is a key to doing it well.
3. When you make a fist- while the front(Knuckles etc) gets stronger- the back gets relatively weaker with the tissue stretching compared to the open hand which has a little more cushioning from tissues
specially if you keep it soft when you are beginning. You could get a hematoma if you hit something hard with the back fist and it doesn't land just right.
4. Sure one can train a back fist- but as in many "cross training" issues- how much time does one have. For me anyway improving on the considerable arsenal of wing chun punches and palms
is better than taking time away from wing chun development.
5. If you are hitting downward- it IMO is still better to land on the front knucles or do a hammer fist rather thana back fist.

[anerlich]

I probably should apologise for dragging WH into it. I agree he has actually made some good posts of late.

I'm a fan of hammerfists as well. Practice your knife form without the swords and you've got a ton of 'em.

I'm not saying a backfist is a superior technique. It's value as an asking hand is highly questionable, as it tends to offer up the elbow for the opponent to control. I find it comes out more often in an exchange of techniques. David Crook, the tile breaker, taught it to me as coming off the bon sao, similar to the way a side palm strike does.

But to say that it can't be done without violating biomechanical principles or Wing Chun structure, and to imply that our forebears "left it out" for this reason, to my mind is illogical. If they left it out for the reasons you mention, that would make more sense, but since Yip Man died 30-odd years ago, we're all just speculating about the reasons, no?

[yuanfen]

Its all a matter of what one wants to work on again and again.
Glover in Seattle honed his back fist pretty well. In his lop sao he uses the back fist but I dont. A wing chun fist can get through a smaller hole IMO of course than a backfist.