Dis-illusions from training?

[Water Dragon]

I saw a fight on new years eve which got me thinking. I've been training with a group of psychos for the past year and a half. They hit me, abuse me, and now, I'm pretty sure I don't get to use mats as much when I'm thrown.

For some reason, I have been thinking for a while that when I do get into a fight, it will be against what I'm used to. The fight I saw was two foolz just swinging at each other. It's strange, but I think I take harder hits in training than these guys were using for real.

So many times, we read about Mc Dojos and people who have a false sense of confidence. I thought this might be an interesting thread as I seem to have developed a false lack of confidence.

I'd be interested in comments from everyone, but especially from those who may have had a similar experience.

[David Jamieson]

well, you can know where you want to go, but you don't know you're there, until you're there.

anything can happen in an altercation, training or not. Training does give one an advantage, but doesn't necessarily mean they will win.

you can train for years and years and still get the heck beaten out of you by someone with no training, it has happened, it's happening now and it will happen again.

Training should always help you with your health and is a healthy practice, it will improve your clarity and awareness and will keep your body in good shape as well as your mind and perceptive ability sharp.

Best to avoid fights.

peace

[Ryu]

Water Dragon, I know exactly what you are talking about.

It seems that the guy I'm "training" for is going to be a 6'7 300 pound BJJ black belt and ex heavyweight boxer....with a gun LOL!
It's obvious that such a visualization makes you think that no matter what you do, this "guy" will always be able to beat you. :(
What's worse is that you sometimes doubt yourself EVEN when you have been in REAL fights. Then when you see the real stuff you learn quick that not everyone is the above mentioned "guy" :)

But I guess I'd rather be cautious then too overconfident. The reason I'm starting to train with weapons, guns, OC spray, awareness, etc. is BECAUSE I don't think I can beat up everyone.
And sometimes you just don't know.

I don't usually say this, but I'm going to post what I really think happens in real fights no matter who you are or what you study.

1. Real fights are surprising and out of nowhere with sucker punches, headbutts from close in, etc.

2. Your body will make stupid mistakes and gross motor skills in a real fight no matter HOW LONG you have trained or HOW good you are (I've seen NHB grapplers get into a real scuffle in the ring and run swinging at each other instead of grappling...weird..)

3. You get tired three times as fast as you do when you spar.

4. Your stomach will usually have a sinking feeling throughout so you've got to get used to fighting with it.

5. Nothing works all the time. You can headbutt someone and they won't care. You can try to take someone down, and they will counter it.


The fights and self-defense scenarios I've been in since my grappling and real JKD days have all been wins I guess. But none of them were with that 6'7 300 pounder ready to kill me....
hope he never comes :(

Ryu

[jimmy23]

excellent observations!

"false lack of confidence"

I really like that phrase.

[les paul]

Few times on this forum have I read clearer thoughts than the one's posted by you on this thread.

les paul

[jon]

I would venture to say that this fight was proberly a personal argument that esculated into violence. Emotion and many other factors where proberly involved from both sides.
Ive seen a fair few fist fights in my time, i grew up in a rough area. I have to say ive seen some SHOCKING fights that were just two people with there heads down swinging punches at thin air in the hope they will connect.
BUT and its a big but... ive also seen some exceptional streetfighters who were brilliant at adapting to there situation and fighting for real. They were all brutaly aggressive and very very powerfull. I would still not like to go up against the memory of these guys after 10+ years of training. There a big part of what keeps me training realistic way.
You have to remember people wont pick a fight they dont think they can win. If your talking about an argument that esculates you should as a martial artist avoid it! Our most likely attacker is the person who wants our wallet or the nutcases who are out to pick fights. In most of these cases your going to be attacked by someone who has some kind of plan, has done this several times before, already has a sence of security about winning.
I think the quote "false lack of confidence" is actualy quite dangerous. Sure you shouldnt feel powerless but dont start thinking your a killing machine either.

[Water Dragon]

Good thread so far. I was scared I'd get ****y, but it's a different attitude. I feel more calm I guess. I still try to be alert all the time, I still carry a gun and a knife. It's almost as if I know I'm prepared, and I'm cool with that.

[Black Jack]

Kung Lek and Ryu,

Good Posts!

I like to live by the old motto that it is better to be safe than sorry. More important than any technique, principle or methodology is the mindset you carry behind it all.

Instead of people thinking about how they can "win" a violent situation, they should be thinking about how they can"survive" a violent situation.

Even if you come out of it with missing teeth, broken bones, really messed up and so forth, the point is that you are the one coming out of it.

Nice post Water.

[Shaolindynasty]

Hey WD didn't you say you lived in Gary, indiana? Most people are thinking "yeah what's gonna happen are cornstalks gonna attack you?" But I was just watching the news the other day and they said Gary was ranked number 5 in the top dangerous cities in the USA. If you do live there I can see why you might have a lack of confidence, danger is danger no matter how trained you are. But I agree alot of "streetfighters" aren't the toughguy badass that blackbelt and panther ads will have you beleive, alot of them suck and the fights I've been in after I had some training the guys seemed like in slow motion and was open to everything I threw. I wonder what would happen if I ever fought a trained opponent, it would probally catch me by surprise, probally him to though. I wonder.............

[Wu-Xing]

WD
I know what youre describing.It happens me from time to time.Ive seen lots of fights,in dublin they seem to happen all the time.Growing up here ive been in my fair share of em and one always sticks out in my mind.its also the same as a couple i have watched.the guy trying to hit me(or the other person hes fighting)is so scared of getting hit that they throw this array of feather light punches at your face while simultainiously looking to the side and holding their head back.hopeing to god they hit you.but also like jon said,i have seen some real hardcore streetfighters,some of which were old drinking buddies of mine,and none of them i would ever want to fight.sometimes i have a false lack of confidence, then sometimes im the complete opposite

[DelicateSound]

You can be as confident as hell, and some guy will still surprise you.

You can be as cautious as anything, and you might realise that you could take him with one hand.

It depends a lot on who you're fighting.

IMHO, don't be confident or cautious - take each fight as an individual incident.

[guohuen]

I've gotten the stuff beaten out of me by multiple opponents bad. Broken bones, bruised organs, lacerations, ect. With hard training I have been able to slip between opponents and get away!

[Nichiren]

I like this thread...

I used to fight a lot when I was younger (~18) but I stopped when I almost killed a guy. All it takes is one punch from someone thats relaxed and know how to throw a punch. I had been boxing for about 4 years and matched quite frequently when one guy after a pub wanted to fight me. I had gotten a reputation of never backing down from a fight and lots of guys wanted to test me. He tried to land a right hook to my head and I ducked under it and countered with a left hook. I hit him on the jaw(he broke it) and he was asleep standing. When he fell he hit his head on the pavement and cracked his skull open. Man, I never saw that much blood. I haven't hurt anyone like that since....

My point is that I rather face a guy with 10 years of MA experience than a experienced streetfighter. The streetfighter loves this sh!t, can take a punch, doesn't get tired, can think under these conditions, often have MA background etc. Don't get fooled by the wannabe cake-eaters but look out for the real thing. After you have landed a punch you will know what type you are standing in front of... He will smile at you, losen up and start walking towards you grinning ear to ear....

[jesper]

studies have shown that when under field pressure (small arms fire, knife fighting etc) a person only works at about 40% efficiency.
So if you want to be a good fighter under "real" conditions, start working on those basic skills. they are much more valuable in a confrontation

[jon]

"After you have landed a punch you will know what type you are standing in front of... He will smile at you, losen up and start walking towards you grinning ear to ear...."

Very scary, yet oh so very true... Thats pretty much what the old fighters i used to know where like. Was as if they thrived off the pain and aggression.
Truth is some people simply like to cause harm to others.

[DelicateSound]

Some people don't mind if they end up with their nose plastered across their face, as long as they win. I don't quite understand it, its a facet of human nature I can't get to grips with.

Psychotic?
Idiotic?
Just plain nutters?

Who knows. I just try and keep out of the way. Maybe they're already too ugly to care how they look, and lead such pathetic lives that they don't really care how long they live for.

The same reason I want to learn strikes to the vital points, meridians etc. I know nothing about them [yet] but for this reason, they seem worth learning.

[LEGEND]

RYU post is very good.

[LEGEND]

The truth is I studied grappling cause I lacked KO power...and I really didnt' like standup fighting...so I wanted to offbalance and pin my opponent to the ground. I have learned to avoid the VERBAL phase by pushing off or shooting in if my opponents get to the stare down range!

[JWTAYLOR]

Water Dragon, this is a question I ask myself after every injury I get.

I mean, if you're looking down at yourself, eyes blurry from your concusion and monocular from the eye that's swollen shut, and it's hard to breath becuase of that broken rib you just got, and that swelling in your knee let's you know you'll be limping for the couple of weeks, and you've got to get someone to drive you to the minor emergency clinic so they can set that bone in your hand again, and your turn to your sparring partners and say, "good class", see you guys later, you have to start asking yourself, "Am I really likely to get hurt this bad on the street?".

A couple of years ago I started answering "no." I mean come on, I'm getting old (far too soon, btw) I work in a good area and I live in a place where the average age is about 60 and crime is almost non existant. So why in the fu(k would I put myself through all of this sh!t?

Well, for one, I don't put myself through it nearly as much as I used to. Now, real full contact only a couple of rounds a month, and that's it. Sure, I'll spar and roll every week, but not real full contact.

But even so, it comes down to an old economic style debate. Do the risks justify the returns? The risks of hard training are obvious, and significant. But what are the returns if you aren't likely to get into a life threatening altercation?

For me, there is still the concern for that thousand in one chance that I could be in a real fight, especially now that I'm in the Reserves and someone could send me to a MASH unit or to get wounded souldier off the battlefield. (BTW, did you know they don't give field medics rifles? I thought it was a joke that they would put signs on your uniform that said you were a medic, shove you into battle with people who know how valuable of a target you are, and not give rifle. Jokes on me.)

But even without the threat of combat, the benefits are the mental and physical challenges and the fitness that comes from it, and the ability to pass on those combat skills to others.

<b>But you have to keep a framework for your progess</b>. I mean, if you dont' actually test your stuff as close to "reality" as possible you <b>will</b> move away from that reality. And you end up doing modern forms competitions. So you keep testing yourself to keep you grounded. And it's a b!tch of an exam.

JWT

[Water Dragon]

You’re friggin’ crazier than I am JWT. But I understand where you’re coming from. I pretty much came to the conclusion a few years ago that if the time does come, my H2H skillz are going to serve one of two purposes. Either I need to plow through a group to make my get away (run like a little girl theory) or clear someone so that I can pull my weapon, which will be either my .40, my .380, or my Smith & Wesson tactical folder. Of course, I have an interest in how to turn every day objects (bottles, ashtrays, bricks, etc) into weapons, so that is accounted for as well.

Unfortunately, I’m still in an extremely high crime area and need to train myself for that scenario. I outgrew my street fighting stage when I was about 21. I just don’t have the desire for that anymore. Still, there are idiots who decide they want to fight and there’s nothing you can do to stop that. I’m sure being the only white guy around doesn’t help much, LOL. I guess it’s these foolz who I’m referring to in this thread. I doubt I’ll ever be truly ready for the real deal as listed above. I have more of a “If I’m going down, I’m taking you with me attitude.” I just realized that the idiot in the bar (or where ever) doesn’t bother me much anymore. If he insists, I’m sure a good throw that lands him on the Ol’ noggin will work. That’s really where I was coming from when I started the thread.

Good replies from everyone so far, keep ‘em coming.

[SevenStar]

It sounds to me like you've made a progression in your training. By training for the 6'7 300lb guy, you are now at a point where "lesser" foes (the drunks in the bar) no longer threaten you. As was stated earlier though, you need to stay grounded, as you don't want your lack of confidence to morph into overconfidence.


Corn stalks in Gary?!??! LOL How about, ghettos, guns and thugs that attack in numbers.

[Sharky]

ryu, not trying to be funny, but i think you need to get your ass kicked. you fear losing, cos you have never lost.

[guohuen]

Same idea, different take. In reality iron shirt training is beating the snot out of yourself and your not taking any head shots.