Martial Arts and Posession

[fiercest tiger]

I have seen some teachers of certain styles that do chi kung and say that they get possessed and started doing freaky sh!t lol , but do you really believe they are?

How does one do this?

Do they have to be open for possession or are they on a bad trip?

What about being possessed by a an animal or certain diety from your style or beliefs?

Anyone care to share!

thanks
'FT':D

[Water Dragon]

Sounds like they forgot to take their medication to me.

[logic]

Someone said on this forum that they knew a ninja that could rub his hands together and make the wind blow, and they were serious about this:rolleyes:

The fortune teller will tell you your future for a price.
Why don't they play the lottery?

common sense. honest neutral clarity.Reality
People come and go through my body all the time.(Yeah right)
Get a grip man.

Monsters haven't lived under my bed since I was 10.

[mantis108]

I believe what you described is known as Shen Da which is one of the divisions of Taoism (the religion). Pesonally, with all due respects, it is an study of the occult or rather the harnessing of the occult powers. The Boxer rebellion was insitegated by such an occult group. Althought Shen Da is not nessarily evil in nature, those whose study it would vouch for it, it is wildly avoided and feared by people.

Mantis108

[Ryu]

I don't believe it. :D
When I saw this thread I said to myself "it'd be funny if he were talking about people being possessed" and I come in here, and that's exactly what it is :D

My answer. No they are not.
The mind is a strange thing. It can make people believe many things, but as far as the reality of this. I don't believe it for a second. And would think it disgusting if it were true. ;)

Ryu

[David Jamieson]

animal frolics-

the state where a chi kung practitioner enters a trance like state and the motion that follows resembles the motion of some animals.

surrendering one's self to primal drives will induce this also.
not to mention drug use, altered states of conciousness and so on.

It's still all you when it happens, perhaps just unfamiliar territory of exploration and with the inability to explain or fully understand is relegated to "possession".

peace

[Xebsball]

I heard of it, espontaneus chi kung...

I think its a advanced level of chi kung where you move freely without control.

From what i've heard some people start jumping like crazy, some cry, others laugh. And some even do kung fu forms and techniques that they havent learned!

[fiercest tiger]

So you do believe in monsters, its just they dont live under your bed anymore?:D

have a chill pill man, its a question.

mantis 108,

yes san da is the correct answer, i have seen a few sifu's go into these state like trances.

Do you think it would make them better at fighting?:D

[logic]

Monster Style KUNG FU.
:D

[fiercest tiger]

drunken frankinstein style:D

[rubthebuddha]

werewolf style would be cool, but you could only practice it every few weeks. ;)

[jon]

Im a Hung Ga guy as you know. We use animal and elemental forces and ideals in our training all the time.
Ive seen my sifu litteraly take on a tiger or snake and its not a pleasent experience.
Its not that he will growl or sliver about the floor its more his normal movements and spirit which take on some of the animals attributes.
I do think this can make you more effective in combat, ive even seen it happen. I try to avoid going near my sifu in a tiger state as he litteraly is capable of tearing things up. Ive had several shirts ripped and had blood drawn one or two occasions. This was just him showing me application. He likes to prove it actualy hurts as well... lucky me.
This was him simply reflexing not even activly trying to hurt me, thats to me what tiger spirit is like. Aggressive and downright dangerous. It feels like trying to learn to fight from a bloody large powerfull animal.
There is also another guy who studies the same form as I am at the moment [Gung Gee tiger form] and we are both quite different. In that i come in and out of each animal depending on technique, where as his whole form follows the tiger. This is simply due to our different attitudes to combat and how we deal with getting though the physical of it [demanding form]. I prefer to adapt on the fly and let different forces help for different movements, he prefers to stay in one spirit and let that influence the way he moves so he doenst have to think so much about what he is doing.
I think it depends on the person but some people seem to definately [with training] fight better when there not exactly acting themselfs.
Like i say i dont think its that you growl and start scratching up a tree to test your claws. Its more that simply you take on aspects like the will of a tiger or the patience of a crane.
Ive also seen drunken used VERY effectively, still similar techniques but with the intent[or lack of] and blind fury a drunk has.
Guess it all comes down to personality and what gets you though.

[Tainan Mantis]

In Taiwan there are many temples where the spirits are said to reside. When another spirit has a b-day or some other special occasion the spirits from the other temples will come to visit and pay respects.

The spirit travels with the help of the temple people in a palanquin sitting in a chair in the form of a statue. As the chair is carried by 6-8 people the chair is seen to bounce up and down and left and right making travel difficult. For this reason the chair carriers are big and strong people.

Truthfully, it appears as though the chair moves because of the long sticks connected to the chair bouncing, like the springs in your car bouncing up and down after a bump in the road.

After the spirit makes obeisences at the other temple the spirit will enter the bodies of 1 or more people. These people dance around in some type of kung fu while shaking thier bodies as if possessed.

If the god is powerful the possessed will flagelate themselves until bloody.
So the tradition and beliefs are continually passed on.

[toddtacetta]

There is no god, no devil, no demons, no spirits, no angels, no monsters.

Anyone who is possessed is sick in the head or making it up.

There has never been any substantive proof of any of those things. Ever.

All there is are myths and legends and stories created by imaginative but ignorant and superstitious peoples.

The bible is mostly BS written by confused men, same for the torah, the koran, and other stuff.

[logic]

You said no Monsters.
Are you sure,- I mean are you really sure.

Because if there is, I really have to know.

[Satanachia]

I think they are full of it.

Working themselves up into a psychological and physical frenzy. Or into some other state of mind like calmness. Which wouldn't be that hard for someone who's been training to do it for as long as it takes to become a teacher.

[Cody]

Kung Lek, for one, gave a reasonable response. I'll jump off from there, it being that it's all you that is happening.
One thing I realized early on was how very little of knew of myself. I would say that was where my effort went.

I don't think the disembodied spirit of a tiger or other animal finds its way into you during these events. Rather, you have succeeded in finding the animal in yourself. When the boundaries between stages or states of consciousness become less dividing, I think it is possible to become whatever it is in your nature to become.
MA animal training will bring this out in individuals who are capable of making the transition. You are not being taken over by an animal spirit, but your own spirit is freely participating in its animal self. If there are moves that are made which one can't do ordinarily, again, that is how that part of your nature operates naturally.
There is a lot we don't know about the functioning of the brain, never mind the spiritual connection. I think that the surrendering of the rational mind to the primal part might yield a feeling of being possessed because the energy is so different, as is the "thinking." Indeed, one might be in a mushin state (No Mind). But, it's all you, and very wonderful at that.

The primary word is CONTROL of one's impulses, thoughts, and intent when in the normal conscious state. Without that, you are sure to get weird in an altered state of consciousness which is less inhibited, shall we say.
It can also be said that you will believe what you have been taught to expect, for instance, for the spirit of a tiger to find you and operate thru you. With an open mind, you might feel differently, and realize that the animal was in you all the time, but unexpressed and untrained. With MA, you might be open to this experience, as it is viewed positively.

Cody

[Ryu]

There's actually been lots of proof of "religious" type things, just not the "man in the sky with a beard" LOL.
Science, for instance has proven laws of cause and effect, (a very strong Buddhist belief) and other things, (everything in the universe has rotational energy, everything goes through change, birth, life, death, rebirth (or just returning to source) All that is science, and all that is Buddhism. "God" needs to be defined as something undefinable I think. People need to stop taking things so literally. :)

As far as the bible. Well much of the places and happenings in it have been proven and found in archeology, etc.
Doesn't mean God is a man with a beard LOL, but who really knows what that word represents anyway.

But I still don't believe monkey's spirits come and take over someone :D Call me crazy.

Now, mentally focusing on "animal" characteristics like strength, speed, etc. Well yeah, I'm more open to that. :)

Ryu

[Cody]

Newton's work on cause and effect appeared to give the Deterministic philosophy, which I read had its origins in Ancient Greece, scientific clout. However!, Newton's work dealt with physical bodies, not mind or spirit, or theoretical passage or development thereof. While, there would appear to be a sort of physics of living, I cannot say that it literally accounts for the myriad experiences of living, which probably include randomness. I don't think things are that neat, and all is beyond total comprehension. That's my opinion.
I don't want to get into the Determinism, Karma, Newtonian triangle. I've done that already, recently. Man, what a headache I got. I have my beliefs, or lack thereof, and other people have theirs.

It's okay to believe in a literal God, in a man with a long beard, in a conscious energy that created everything, etc. If one has a belief, however, I think one might tend to see both "truths" and "falsehoods" in terms of that belief system, no matter what it is. While you might not want to take things literally, whole belief systems are based on that literalism, or biblical literalism. No, I don't believe that way, but I think we need to realize that for someone else this is a belief close to the heart, and not to be taken lightly.

One of my beliefs is that it is not what you believe in, but what you are, which is relevant.

Ryu, I think you were being rather good natured.
I will say that a belief is a belief is a belief, and nothing more. Some appear to have a foundation of sorts, yet, the fact is, it is a belief.

Best,
Cody

[logic]

Kung Lek made sense. BUT also..........

Unfamiliar territory of exploration,- (Do you mean the BRAIN,oh my God!)

Perhaps just unfamiliar territory of exploration and with the inability to explain or fully understand is relegated to "Possession"

Yeah, every time I get an alchol buzz going, I'm possest by none other than Jekel

I can't explain it, I do things that I wouldn't normally do.

moon my a-ss, Wear the lamp shade,That kind of stuff,you know,
Altered States.
It's Jekel I tell yea

Da-mmit it's Jekel!!

:D :D ;)

[Ryu]

Very true, Cody.
Good post :)

Yeah, I was being good natured. I love getting deeply into that kind of stuff. But I will agree with this.... it does cause headaches! :D

I agree that it is what you are that is relevant. Very very true.
Though I "believe" (haha) that the strength of what you believe indeed makes you what you are. :)

Kind of a "you are what you think" kind of thing. ;)

Take care, and thanks.

Ryu

[tnwingtsun]

"There is no god, no devil, no demons, no spirits, no angels, no monsters."


You can't disprove this either.

One that doesn't consider other planes of existance is like the
those that thought the world was flat.

Check out the "Superstring Theory"

[fiercest tiger]

So is it wrong for me to say that i was told i fu(k like a demon!:D

Oh yeah, can ya feel that, CAN YA?

hang on i gotta crack my neck, oh **** it spun right around again!!:p

sly in rock had it, but only had the eye of the tiger, he couldnt get the rest...hahaha :eek:

jon,
does the energy differ from animal to animal when your sifu gets possessed?

i find it puts me in the mindset or zone!:)

[No_Know]

Before one takes a test, one who passes the test (essay) already knew the information about which the test asked. Science doesn't make things-ish. It's more at a self-imposed valadation to what already was there.

I haven't read about toddtecetta in any book or the such. I do not necessarily recall being told about a toddtactta. Nor came across any toddtacetta that I knew as such in my daily living (I've lived~ more than 7000 days). toddtacetta, according to you does this indicate/prove that you do not exist? Or, perhaps merely indicate, that I might not Know all that exists.?.


I No_Know

[jon]

I hope your only having a go at me F.T:confused:

"jon,
does the energy differ from animal to animal when your sifu gets possessed?"

I worked so hard to make it not sound like he is being possessed
:( Ahh well i guess the question still remains the same.

Yes the energy differs a LOT... Techniques can be shared by animals but spirit and feel can not.
In other words it looks very different and is quite different in application. When he is in a Tiger frame he is very overpowering and grounded. When he takes on snake his movements flow naturaly and nothing is forced or frivilous. These two energies and combat methods are nearly at opposites to each other.
Thats more what i meant. As i tried to say he doesnt start growling or anything silly. :rolleyes:

[rogue]

"Someone said on this forum that they knew a ninja that could rub his hands together and make the wind blow, and they were serious about this"

I too can do this, usually after a big bowl of black bean soup.

[NorthernMantis]

I heard about that but I don't believe in it because I only believe in God.I met a sifu a while back that said something similar to ot.

Sorry Todd but that's my beliefs.

[fiercest tiger]

i wasnt having a go at your sifu..lol

i miss read your post mate, hahaha sorry dude!

:cool:

The other questions were serious.:)

[prana]

Before I had this experience, I thought all spirit talk was bs. But then I had the experience of a spirit entering my body via my sifu, and and since then, I have changed my blind ways to be more open-minded with possibilities.

I can totally understand why you wouldnt believe it, and I can totally understand if you thought I was crazy (actually I am craxy muahahaha). I couldnt careless. But to clarify, Xebsball (was it you who said it) many possessed start laughing, crying, moving involuntarily, and all controlled by an internal 'wind' (Qi) energy. It simply leaves your body as soon as you say thanks.... and you will never doubt the existence of Qi ever after this ahahaha

I owe it to my sifu to have taken this blindfold away. The world of the Boddhisattvas are far greater than humans.

[Leonidas]

Here's an analogy from a Preacha'man about GOD , Angels, Demons...................He said that its all about what humans are tuned into and can comprehend. He says a normal person can't pick up radio or tv waves without special equipment but their all around us 24/7. All you have to do is get an antenna and your tuned in. They do exist but it's invisible. I believe that sometimes when you use drugs you can tune into things that you usually can't see, but only alittle bit and for a short period of time. Like Shamans and Medicinemen did for thousands of years. I noticed that sometimes when i used to smoke weed and i would sit down and think about life, everything would seem alittle clearer, everything just came together. I unfortunately couldn't remember my moments of "enlightenment" the next day though. I quit smoking because everyone knows drugs ruin your body but thats not the issue. The point is that their are things on Earth that us humans will never comprehend no matter how much we try, so you can't just dismiss other peoples beliefs. Good or Evil possesions can exist. It goes with my beliefs atleast.

[Xebsball]

Some day i want to try that stuff out.

Prana, you're my online guru :D

[fiercest tiger]

The other reason also for me asking is when i was you i was playing around with ouiji board and got possessed so i was told.

my friends got scared when they looked at me i was also talking in tounges apparently. my friend then punched me in the head a king hit he said and i just stood there staring at him!

i dont remember anything but my friends left me after that night in the atic!!:( :eek:

[Ryu]

I think they might have been playing a joke on you.


Hopefully...LOL, wouldn't want to have to break out the old "devil hunter" stuff again...I ....oops..I said too much.

Um...scratch that. Forget what I just said. I've never been a devil hunter.

Ryu

[joedoe]

I wouldn't discount anything. I have seen a lot of wierd stuff in my time. Enough that while I try to remain a healthy skeptic, I do not simply discount way-out stories when I hear them.

[Cody]

Hi guys,
I tried to post early in AM, but there was a data base problem on this site. I return. Hopefully, I can piece together what I had in mind then, and add a bit.

Ryu,
I was thinking something along the lines of what you had in mind this morning. Different though. My thought was that a belief can give someone additional strength to be truly one's self, if that belief is in resonance with what one is. That would agree with your idea. However, I am concerned where someone struggles to identify with a belief system which goes against the nature of that person. I am thinking that this can instead weaken the person and limit the freedom to experience the self and evaluate it differently, without pressure to conform, or opportunity to be free of a mindset. Mindsets are sneaky things. They get into the subconscious real fast.

Prana,
Yes, one can have the experience of having a spirit enter one's body via one's sifu. I would venture to say that it was probably the spiritual energy of the sifu. This might not be admitted to.

Leonidas,
I don't know from spirits and demons, except those within living beings that walk the earth and project their minds. There are living humans, some in MA, who can masquerade as just about anything within the mind.

peace,

Cody

[Shaolindynasty]

Sure let's make the eastern practices seem weird. Have any of you ever been to a church down south? People get invaded by the "holy spirit" handle snakes and all kind of weird stuff. It's funny that people who go to the "holy ghost invading churches" will think normally otherwise and be skeptical of "supernatural" feats but come sunday.....................:eek:

[tnwingtsun]

"Have any of you ever been to a church down south? People get invaded by the "holy spirit" handle snakes and all kind of weird stuff. It's funny that people who go to the "holy ghost invading churches" will think normally otherwise and be skeptical of "supernatural" feats but come sunday....................."


The Church of God and The Pentacostal Church down here will pretty much TELL you 24 hrs,7 days a week that they got the Holy ghost and start rapping in tongues.

DUDE........

I have yet to meet a supernaturaly skeptical Snake handling
Church of God or Pentacostal member,its either their way or the Devil's.

I have experinced heat projected out of one of the members(a one time co-worker,we debated non-stop) hands,a very close to the heat projected out of chi-kung people's hands.

[Royal Dragon]

Youa said
"People get invaded by the "holy spirit" handle snakes and all kind of weird stuff."

We have three 10-12 foot Albino Burmese pythons, four 6-8 foot red tail boas and an "Unknown" number of smaller snakes at my house (girlfreind breeds them for the pet stores).

Am "I" Wierd stuff?:rolleyes:

Royal Dragon

[Steven T. Richards]

POSESSION STATES

This is a very controversial issue, as, many traditional Chinese martial arts employ what in the west would be described as frank trance states, but, are, in the context of martial arts culture, states of ‘spiritual’ possession: as routinely encountered in Sun-Gung (spirit work) and Sun-Dar (spirit attack).

I have the utmost respect for these practices in their proper context – i.e. traditional Chinese culture. They are for example very common in Hakka arts such as Southern Mantis kung-Fu.

However, speaking from my professional perspective, as a clinical hypnotherapist, a research and clinical respiratory psycho-physiologist and an analytical psychotherapist, then there is no doubt that
These ‘possession states’ are nothing more than trances, induced many times thru hyperventilation (here defined as breathing in excess of the bodies physiological needs). Therefore hyperventilation, can be induced in a deeply relaxed subject simply by asking them to breath just a little more quickly (not panting) or a little less deeply.

The most immediate effect of hyperventilation, is a loss of acid in the form of expired carbon dioxide (as carbonic acid in solution in the bodies fluids). This produces a state of repiratory driven alkalosis,
The bodies Ph shifts towards the alkaline.

The first organ to be effected is the brain, as carbonic acid flows down its concentration gradient between the brain and the now increasingly alkaline blood. Very quickly, in less than a minute, the brain itself can be affected, leading to a whole variety of psychiatric symptoms. Even schizophreic symptomology can be induced thru respiratory alkalosis as first identified by the researchers Allen & Agus in the USA in 1968.

An immediate psychological effect is increased suggestability, which is why changes in breathing are routinely used in hypnotic inductions. The ‘suggestion’ can be derived from the environment (context) for the ritualised practice, or subjectively according to belief, or indeed a combination of both.

Other routine effects include smooth muscle spasm in the arteries, lungs and G.I. tract.

The fungus Ergot, which is the precursor to LSD, is an extremely efficient alkaloid based toxin. Ergot and artificial LSD both produce trance states and associated psychiatric symptoms.

In the martial arts, you often find that kong-sau challenges are conducted with an overlay or precursor of hyperventilation induced Sun-Gung – to ‘psyche’ the fighters up. Another feature of hyperventilation induced alkalosis is an increase in pain threshold as the nervous system begins to shut down pain perception – due to parasthesia. Repeated ‘training’ in such practices, including aspects of ‘Iron Shirt’ training creates a ‘State Dependent Memory Learning and Behaviour’ SDMLB ‘complex’ with such gains that are made being ‘locked in state’ and not transferable outside of it. Skeletal muscle spasm and pain desensitisation is also common in hyperventilation, some ‘natural’ hyperventilators actually develop a rigid tetany – whole body spasm - and cannot ‘feel’ any pain at all.

Carl Gustav Jung did the seminal work on possession states in his 1901 Doctoral thesis: ‘On the psychology and psychopathology of so-called occult phenomenon’. In that work, ou-ja boards, spirit mediums, speaking in tounges etc were successfully studied and revealed to be due to ‘dissociative’ states within which consciousness ‘divided’ into discrete – autonomous ‘entities’ – sub-personalities or partial personalities – Jung named them ‘complexes’ –systems of ideas and emotions that took on a degree of autonomy outside of the usual conscious personality and of its associated ‘will’.

I myself have researched trance states in the martial arts, and published a paper following the 1st International Conference and Graduation in Martial Arts (the Society of Martial Arts) at Manchester Metropolitan University, Sports and Exercise Science Faculty, July 1998:

‘Hyperventilation Trance States & Suggestion in the Martial Arts’.

Published in the Societies‘Proceedings’ Volume 1 1998.
Edited by Dr Eugene de Silva and Professor David Collins.
ISBN 0 9533337 0 1.
I’ve also published research into over 500 National Health Service referrals, following a paper presentation to the XIIth International Symposium on Respiratory Psychophysiology, Wellcome Centre London September 1993.

In both research areas, I used an infared mass spectrometer, a capnograph, to measure the partial arterial pressure of C02, as an exact index of moment by moment acid-base regulation in the body.

Chi-Gung, Sung-Ging, Sun-Dar etc are all ‘trance states’ from within the scientific paradigm, and can be measured as such clearly and repeatedly.

I later published some observations on these factors in a book, and as a result, I was ‘spiritually attacked’ by a Chinese ‘master’ . It had no effect whatsoever. What did hurt me however, was his incitement to violence and sexual abuse against my children which he published and sanctioned on his internet forum – later closed down by yahoo.com.

This ‘master’ did not have the courage to face me in person – his excuse? He was too spiritual.

With experience, you will often find that Sun-Dar s a superstitious retreat for people who have no real skill – and who rely on fear to intimidate others.

So, in summary, I have the greatest respect for these practices when in their true traditional context, but from a scientific viewpoint they are simple and natural phenomenon, and routinely found in people dignosed by western standards as suffering from a mental disorder. The diagnosis is to some extent culturally specific, but, as in all things experience is the graet teacher. Those who work with the floridly mentally ill, and who have deep martial arts experience will understand fully.

[Steven T. Richards]

POSESSION STATES

This is a very controversial issue, as, many traditional Chinese martial arts employ what in the west would be described as frank trance states, but, are, in the context of martial arts culture, states of ‘spiritual’ possession: as routinely encountered in Sun-Gung (spirit work) and Sun-Dar (spirit attack).

I have the utmost respect for these practices in their proper context – i.e. traditional Chinese culture. They are for example very common in Hakka arts such as Southern Mantis kung-Fu.

However, speaking from my professional perspective, as a clinical hypnotherapist, a research and clinical respiratory psycho-physiologist and an analytical psychotherapist, then there is no doubt that
These ‘possession states’ are nothing more than trances, induced many times thru hyperventilation (here defined as breathing in excess of the bodies physiological needs). Therefore hyperventilation, can be induced in a deeply relaxed subject simply by asking them to breath just a little more quickly (not panting) or a little less deeply.

The most immediate effect of hyperventilation, is a loss of acid in the form of expired carbon dioxide (as carbonic acid in solution in the bodies fluids). This produces a state of repiratory driven alkalosis,
The bodies Ph shifts towards the alkaline.

The first organ to be effected is the brain, as carbonic acid flows down its concentration gradient between the brain and the now increasingly alkaline blood. Very quickly, in less than a minute, the brain itself can be affected, leading to a whole variety of psychiatric symptoms. Even schizophreic symptomology can be induced thru respiratory alkalosis as first identified by the researchers Allen & Agus in the USA in 1968.

An immediate psychological effect is increased suggestability, which is why changes in breathing are routinely used in hypnotic inductions. The ‘suggestion’ can be derived from the environment (context) for the ritualised practice, or subjectively according to belief, or indeed a combination of both.

Other routine effects include smooth muscle spasm in the arteries, lungs and G.I. tract.

The fungus Ergot, which is the precursor to LSD, is an extremely efficient alkaloid based toxin. Ergot and artificial LSD both produce trance states and associated psychiatric symptoms.

In the martial arts, you often find that kong-sau challenges are conducted with an overlay or precursor of hyperventilation induced Sun-Gung – to ‘psyche’ the fighters up. Another feature of hyperventilation induced alkalosis is an increase in pain threshold as the nervous system begins to shut down pain perception – due to parasthesia. Repeated ‘training’ in such practices, including aspects of ‘Iron Shirt’ training creates a ‘State Dependent Memory Learning and Behaviour’ SDMLB ‘complex’ with such gains that are made being ‘locked in state’ and not transferable outside of it. Skeletal muscle spasm and pain desensitisation is also common in hyperventilation, some ‘natural’ hyperventilators actually develop a rigid tetany – whole body spasm - and cannot ‘feel’ any pain at all.

Carl Gustav Jung did the seminal work on possession states in his 1901 Doctoral thesis: ‘On the psychology and psychopathology of so-called occult phenomenon’. In that work, ou-ja boards, spirit mediums, speaking in tounges etc were successfully studied and revealed to be due to ‘dissociative’ states within which consciousness ‘divided’ into discrete – autonomous ‘entities’ – sub-personalities or partial personalities – Jung named them ‘complexes’ –systems of ideas and emotions that took on a degree of autonomy outside of the usual conscious personality and of its associated ‘will’.

I myself have researched trance states in the martial arts, and published a paper following the 1st International Conference and Graduation in Martial Arts (the Society of Martial Arts) at Manchester Metropolitan University, Sports and Exercise Science Faculty, July 1998:

‘Hyperventilation Trance States & Suggestion in the Martial Arts’.

Published in the Societies‘Proceedings’ Volume 1 1998.
Edited by Dr Eugene de Silva and Professor David Collins.
ISBN 0 9533337 0 1.
I’ve also published research into over 500 National Health Service referrals, following a paper presentation to the XIIth International Symposium on Respiratory Psychophysiology, Wellcome Centre London September 1993.

In both research areas, I used an infared mass spectrometer, a capnograph, to measure the partial arterial pressure of C02, as an exact index of moment by moment acid-base regulation in the body.

Chi-Gung, Sung-Ging, Sun-Dar etc are all ‘trance states’ from within the scientific paradigm, and can be measured as such clearly and repeatedly.

I later published some observations on these factors in a book, and as a result, I was ‘spiritually attacked’ by a Chinese ‘master’ . It had no effect whatsoever. What did hurt me however, was his incitement to violence and sexual abuse against my children which he published and sanctioned on his internet forum – later closed down by yahoo.com.

This ‘master’ did not have the courage to face me in person – his excuse? He was too spiritual.

With experience, you will often find that Sun-Dar s a superstitious retreat for people who have no real skill – and who rely on fear to intimidate others.

So, in summary, I have the greatest respect for these practices when in their true traditional context, but from a scientific viewpoint they are simple and natural phenomenon, and routinely found in people dignosed by western standards as suffering from a mental disorder. The diagnosis is to some extent culturally specific, but, as in all things experience is the great teacher. Those who work with the floridly mentally ill, and who have deep martial arts experience will understand fully.

[MightyB]

You got me trying to hyperventilate here.

That's why I like your posts. It's not that I like to see people being exposed or called frauds, I just would like to see the martial arts cleaned up a little. I think that there are some things that can be attributed to real "chi", but trying to find the real "chi" amongst the BS is difficult.

This has been by far the wierdest thread that I've ever seen. Some of you guys need some serious help.

[JF Springer]

Well stated Steve and those really interested in this phenomena would do well to read your written work on trance states. I certainly enjoyed it and it is a fairly quick read.

Perhaps Kung Lek could set it up so that your paper could be loaded onto this site and made available to those who want to look at this thing outside a framework both arcane and esoteric in nature.

[yuanfen]

Steve- a very good post. I enjoyed it immensely.
"Altered" states of mind can be seen in other martial and military activities. Again, out of their elements- very "brave" people in war sometimes have real trouble in adjusting back to civil society.

[Cody]

I am not in a position to respond fully to your long post. Time is limited. Be that as it may. I have a BA in Psychology, and a special interest in DID because of someone I know. I have studied MA, but am injured and have not been able to train.

I've spent time investigating, outside of academia, aspects of multiple personality. I've seen switching, what looked like a pseudoseizure and assorted changes in awareness which sometimes gave appearance of a trancelike process (in a mono, under stress, as well). In my opinion, in the monomind, the will is more stable, as it is not divided in the same way. I'm referring to your Jung paragraph here. I would worry about an autonomous will standing apart in any situation. In MA, especially, the will should be singular. That is my view. Even in animal form, the will is of the person. The means is of the animal. There might be no words, or not the same kind of thought, but the will, the intent, if not solidified in the person, should not be transferred to another state of mind, an animal state.
My primary interest is in the potential of the human mind and spirit, which I have seen (combined with physical training) in MA.

I think it is important to note that trance states are not necessarily concurrent with acts of mental or mental/physical projection, nor in their receipt. It depends on things beyond my knowledge. The concentration might not involve much or anything that is visible. I also think that there might be variation in what it takes to trip someone into a trance state, especially as affected by MA training on high levels. In fact, resisting getting lost in the emptiness is a must, as one weapon is simply putting your opponent to sleep, or mentally interrupting the consciousness, the awareness, and striking. In other words, inducing a short trance state in the opponent.

I am aware that hyperventilation can be used for pain. The instructions I read long ago in a Ninja book were quite specific. It is my feeling that the breathing techniques of a trained master go beyond a discourse on what we understand as respiration.

The concept of state dependency is interesting. I would say one's mind and spirit body would need to be in a certain state in order to accomplish certain deeds. Whether what we see as preparation is necessary for this every time, or the degree to which exhibited and hidden preparation is understood in terms of advanced work is up in the air for me, as an observer. I don't think anything is proven by going into a state dependent memory construct, except as it might reflect on early training. That's possible.

While body chemistry can affect the psyche, I know there is something beyond what you have described that is part and parcel of high level martial arts. It is also possible the chemistry changes in highly trained individuals might be different or lead to a different kind of total result. This is a speculation on my part.

I have mentioned in other posts that I believe there is an alchemy that occurs, which involves energy and spiritual components coming together and accomplishing acts in the physical world, and in the psychological one as well.


It is my opinion that a live trained mind can influence others up close and personal, or from a distance, to the degree that the individual appears to be possessed. Other issues are being discussed here. While a separate personality (as defined in DID) might not be there, there could be a transference of self into the mental state of the Tiger that originates from within and finds expression via the training, via what appears to be a trance state. I am thinking that on high levels, while there is altered state of consciousness, a trance state of sorts may or may not be present. That is not an area I have been able to access.
There's lots of grey area, and lots of not knowing.

it sounds to me like the sifu who threatened you and your family was not on the level. If your research takes you deep enough, you might meet up with something you can't handle. I think that's about all I have to say.

Cody

[prana]

Mr Richards

Do you hypnotise people by hyperventilation ? Are there many other ways ? All I needed do was close my eyes, and had not to alter any breathing, nothing, just have my eyes closed and hands together (Namaste).

I have also seen psychics being able to hypnotise an entire audience without much ado, how is that done ?

I think this is more an interesting subject than trolls and jacki :p

ahahaha sorry jacki :D

[Steven T. Richards]

Hello Prana,

No, hyperventilation isn't necessary to induce trance states, it is one method commonly used however. I worked with a western psychic for 5 years (1980-1985) he was also a 'healer' who worked with individuals and large groups.

The best hypnotists, for example the late Milton H Erickson, work so covertly that the 'subject' or subjects know nothing of how they are being manipulted or controlled. Good hypnotists can work effectively with any situation (social-human) and work it to their advantage. Hypnosis is seldom the theatrical stuff that you see on the stage. There are discrete 'rules' of human interaction and information processing, and, first class hypnotists are trained to exploit these, hopefully for therapeutic/clinical purposes.

Cody,

Anyone experienced of working in depth with the human psyche knows the fundamental truth of dissociation and the illusion of a central executive continuity of consciousness.

State dependent learning has been reserached scientificly for over 40 years. I suggest that you check out the folowing sources, both for their primary material and for their enormous wealth of published reference material:

The Psychobiology of Mind-Body Healing: New Concepts Of Therapeutic Hypnosis. (revised edition)

E.L. Rossi
Pub by Norton 1993

Mind-Body Therapy: Methods Of Ideodynamic Healing in Hypnosis
E.L. Rossi & D.B.Cheek.
Pub by Norton 1988.

Mighty B,

Ther concept of 'Chi' is very interesting and controversial. There is a 'universal' aspect to intrinsic energy, it turns up in all cultures under one heading or another, and has done throughout history. My experience of working in the past with the spiritual healer - and - as working AS one myself, shows that the rituals involved in Chi-Gung, including its respiratory practices are NOT necessary to produce 'Chi' or indeed to 'project' it. It can be done very quickly in 'naive' subjects who can be trained to produce, develop and project it, without recourse to such things as meridian theory etc etc. It was for example known in Europe before scientific hypnosis as 'Mesmers magnetic energy'
(researched by Benjamin Franklim on request from the French government).

When I teach clinical hypnosis to Healtch care workers, they learn about the occult, dissociative states, chi and mesmerism, and are required to confront the 'ideodyamics' (ideo-motor, ideo-sensory and cognitive aspects) of such things as Ou-Ja boards, also to replicate Mesmers effects, and to project 'Chi'.

It is largely a cultural issue, the culture in question providing a context for 'meaning'. If people 'buy-in' to a TCMA culture, then their expalnations will tend to be arranged around those concepts. I have no problem with that after 36 years of training in martial arts, and many, many years experience of psychology and the occult.

For me however, it is imporatnt to understand things more fully than is perhaps allowed by submerssion in a given culture. Hence the cross-cultural perspective and the clinical work with human nature in the raw.

Yuan and Jack Springer,

Many thanks for your kind comments, be very pleased to hear of your experineces and observations.

Regards,

Steve.

[Ryu]

What an interesting thread. :)

Ryu

[Oso]

Has anyone ever read "The Kundalini Equation" by Steven Barnes? The hero unleashes the beast within through some pretty extreme breathing exercises and diet (blood and milk).
HEY, it's a book...fiction...sci-fi...but it hits close enough to home to make you think.

He is a sci-fi writer who is also a martial artist and has written several books that are good.


jon - I trained in hung gar for several years and had the same experience with my instructor as we delved into the animal 'spirits'. The whole key was to find the animal in yourself and most importantly to discover what that animal meant to you.

mantis108 - wasn't there an article on shen da in JAMA sometime in the last year or two?

steven - good posts, i will try and find your works, I've long had some idea that CO2 was a big factor in all this stuff but no facts to base it on...time to read and learn!!!



cool stuff,
Matt

[Steven T. Richards]

Hi Oso,

If you put "International Society for the Advancement of Respiratory Psychophysiology (ISARP)" into your browser you should come up with a very useful site with loads of material on C02 dis-regulation in a whole host of states, diseases and conditions.

Regards,

Steve.

[SifuAbel]

Originally posted by logic
Someone said on this forum that they knew a ninja that could rub his hands together and make the wind blow, and they were serious about this

It's the secret can-o-beans technique. :D

[Repulsive Monkey]

Fact is , is that possesion is a very real thing, although probably not how most of you think. In Chinese Medicine possesion is treated like any other complaint, however it has a broader meaning than purely demonic possesion (although that can happen too!). The treatment they used is refered to as Internal or External Dragons, and it is used to clear away possesive or obssesive bahaioural patterns like stalkers, or people who are dangerously infactuated with a person or an object etc. Why are people so critical about demonic or entity derived possesion anyway? I take it you have all experienced it enough times to come to the conclusion that its not real??? Otherwise it be prudent maybe to listen to people who have experince of it and have an informed idea on the subject.

[Steven T. Richards]

Hello RM,

I've plenty of experience of it over 30 years

as:

An indoor disciple to a Hakka Grandmaster,
As a 36 years in training martial artist
As an intended 'victim'
As a resercher in the paranormal and the occult (local group of the Society for Psychical Research SPR)
As a consultant in complementary medicine to the Institute for Complementary Medicine (ICM) London.
As an analytical psychotherapist working with severe mental illness
As a hypnotherapist, hypnotherapy trainer, and complementary medicine Occupational Standards Consultant
As a western 'spiritual healer'
As a published research worker in hyperventilation induced trance states and a respiratory psychophysiologist (International Society for the Advancement of Respiratory psychophysiology - ISARP)
As a former Police Officer dealing with plenty of 'strange -in-manner' types

As for how you define 'spiritual' or 'possession' or indeed whatever, that depends very much on your background and your broader experience.

FWIW, my experience suggests that the broader the knowledge and experiential base the better. Abstraction can be a bad thing, but so can culturally specific reductionism.

[JF Springer]

Please forgive my interjecting in this matter Steve, but minimally qualified academic wannabes such as "Cody" pi$$ me off to no end.

>My primary interest is in the potential of the human mind and spirit, which I have seen (combined with physical training) in MA.

As you only have a BA you might want to explore some Master level course work. Obviously, you've yet to work through the fact that Rene Descartes told a joke.

>I think it is important to note that trance states are not necessarily concurrent with acts of mental or mental/physical projection, nor in their receipt. It depends on things beyond my knowledge.

That's a rubbish statement. If it's beyond your knowledge then you have no basis for speculation.

>The concentration might not involve much or anything that is visible.

Concentration is a mental phenomena and how, or even if, it presents via external characteristics is irrelevant. What's your point?

>I also think that there might be variation in what it takes to trip someone into a trance state, especially as affected by MA training on high levels.

Total cr@p. You cannot "trip" someone into a trance state. John Barrymore did one h*ell of a Svengali, but that was Hollywood.

>In fact, resisting getting lost in the emptiness is a must, as one weapon is simply putting your opponent to sleep, or mentally interrupting the consciousness, the awareness, and striking.

Sure guy, now tell us about how you point your finger at chickens standing 10 feet away and they drop dead.

>In other words, inducing a short trance state in the opponent.

In other words, bull$hit.

>It is my feeling that the breathing techniques of a trained master go beyond a discourse on what we understand as respiration.

Sure, the discourse must incorporate "Volume II: Ninja Wall Walking or How to Find the Invisible Elevator" at least.

>The concept of state dependency is interesting. I would say one's mind and spirit body would need to be in a certain state in order to accomplish certain deeds.

Back to schizo-man are you? Roll the missing element "body" into the equation and congratulations, you’ve just "discovered" what sports psychologists, and well trained athletic coaches, have been preaching for decades.

>Whether what we see as preparation is necessary for this every time, or the degree to which exhibited and hidden preparation is understood in terms of advanced work is up in the air for me, as an observer.

Here's your clue: You can't "see" it outside of "doing" it.

>While body chemistry can affect the psyche, I know there is something beyond what you have described that is part and parcel of high level martial arts.

Based on what experience, level of skill, and/or education do you make the above assertion? Since you “know” there is something “beyond” then you will have no problem telling us precisely what the “something” is.

>It is also possible the chemistry changes in highly trained individuals might be different or lead to a different kind of total result. This is a speculation on my part.

Bull$hit. You flatter yourself Cody. It's not speculation in any sense of the word. There's mountains of research that conclusively proves certain precise, activity specific metabolic changes present differently according to skill level, and yes, that includes the actual metabolic pathway(s) accessed and utilized.

>I have mentioned in other posts that I believe there is an alchemy that occurs, which involves energy and spiritual components coming together and accomplishing acts in the physical world, and in the psychological one as well.

I missed those and that's a shame as I like to laugh.

>It is my opinion that a live trained mind can influence others up close and personal, or from a distance, to the degree that the individual appears to be possessed.

Yeah, sure Cody, sure, but what can a "dead" trained mind accomplish?

>Other issues are being discussed here.

Mostly by guys like you who have read one historical fiction too many and gone "goo-goo" over the deep end. Try reciting "date-time-place" in order to "find" yourself.

>. . . the mental state of the Tiger that originates from within and finds expression via the training, via what appears to be a trance state.

What a hoot!!! Here's your stumbling block Illmu Hitman poseur. How would you, or anyone for that matter, "know" what is reflective of the Tiger's mind? You cannot assume, or adopt, anything that does not exist. In order to assume something it must be it manifested externally or held internally as a mental construct. Ever been inside the mind of a Tiger? Thought not and that's really something you should try, the "thinking" part that is.

>I am thinking that on high levels, while there is altered state of consciousness, a trance state of sorts may or may not be present.

I am thinking you routinely mistake brain f*arts for valid thoughts.

>That is not an area I have been able to access.

What a hoot!!! You obviously have virtually no experience "doing'" much of anything. Even a neophyte experiences an alteration in perception in response to certain practices. Maybe that will be in Volume III: Ninja Secrets for Experiencing the Ordinary.

>There's lots of grey area, and lots of not knowing.

On your part, most definitely.

>It sounds to me like the sifu who threatened you and your family was not on the level.

It sounds to me like you are some marginally educated douche bag trying to engage in a conversation echelons above your level.

>If your research takes you deep enough, you might meet up with something you can't handle.

Gee Cody, can we get your above statement complete with the Twilight Zone theme music in the background?

>I think that's about all I have to say.

Probably the only decent thought you've had. Now why don’t you just go ahead and activate your OBE sequence so you can engage in some RV. Try to set your coordinates for REALITY.

[Cody]

I am not an academic wannabe. I am what I am. I'm alive, without affiliation. I admit to what I have experienced when I feel it is appropriate to share, to what I have learned from others, to what I think but am not sure of. And, if I speak some of lingo it's because I've been in the environs. You don't like it. It doesn't matter much. Except that you are showing yourself to be unkind, disrespectful to someone who is trying to share and learn (and I have learned a great deal on these boards), and less than you present yourself to be. Someone who is educated and out in the world as you are should not behave in this manner towards anyone.

I cannot fully read or respond to any post that is insulting in this manner. You have an arrogance about you that you spew from a small podium of authority, and people listen. So many like you on so many podiums. Many quite a bit higher. You lack compassion and you're ignorant beyond your own borders.

This was a good thread. There was a freedom in it, a freedom to experiment without ridicule. I was interested in the researcher's posts. I will no longer read or post to this thread. I am offended. And, I don't say that easily.

Carry on,
Cody

[JF Springer]

Cody, sorry about your panties getting a wad.

Maybe you ought to switch to all cotton briefs.

Your warning about what Steve may find beyond the confines of the a$$hole, raper of small farm animals that threatened the safety of his family revealed you for what you are. A fukking idiot.

As for "higher podiums" you're so far down as to be wallowing in whale $hit and certainly in no position to "see" above me.

I know exactly where you're coming from and it's typical of the moronic cr@p spewed by 17 year old "new age" kiddies.

Now take your precious, hurt, little boo-boo ridden pride, along with your autographed copy of the Celestine Prophecy and pound sand, punk.

[Ryu]

Now that's some good ad hominum. :cool:


Ryu

[Steven T. Richards]

Hello Ryu,

See your drift, but it isn't really ad hominum. The critique goes against the 'argument' which was predicated on 'personality' to some extent as in subjective beliefs and experiences. Insofar as these are the matrix for the developed points/issues, Jack's response does not qualify as 'ad hominum'.

[Ryu]

It was a little ad hominum. :D
Don't worry, I wasn't really all that serious. That's why I had that little :cool: icon by it.

Ryu

[DelicateSound]

Originally posted by JF Springer
moronic cr@p spewed by 17 year old "new age" kiddies.

Hey - I'm 17 and very knowledgeable thank you! :D

I've just read this whole post. JF and Steve, you seem to know what you're on about. I have NO IDEA about any of this, but its a really good post. Inspired me to find out more actually.

Ryu: Are you ALWAYS objective? :)

[Ryu]

Delicate,

Only when it's an objective use of objectivity:D


Ryu

[JF Springer]

Well, if you would like to delve a bit deeper into what Steve is speaking about drop me an E-Mail. As long as Steve gives his approval I'll E-mail you his paper on trance states. You might have to scurry to a medical dictionary a time or two but you should be able to gain some insight into his position on this thing. Nothing wrong with being 17, everyone one of us at least 18 went through it :)

[diego]

i will secomd that motion,steves writings are very good for the semi-literate"read those 7 years after bieng a 17 year old hippy,who is getting his philosophys together"i read the thing twice caught the gist,but i didnt have the diction so it makes me have to read agian-then AGIAN.

ONE THING I HAVE NOTICED is,everyone who replys to steves threads,is smarter after doing so,if you look at thier past threads the word usage is 2-3 syllable structure,,,,the newer ones have terms such as POSSIBILITIES ,EXPONENTIAL & the like.:cool:

[diego]

they stated,thier was a huge studie on prayer-healing

they broke up groups,and certian wons prayed,others didnt.
They came up with its real,but thier clueless in explaining it-the prayer groups healed continuosly better then the groups not prayed for,they even had prayer groups blessing from other countrys and the effects were positive.

the 500mile monkey theory,were makaw monkeys in japan all the sudden started to wash thier potatos in the river,then 500 miles away other makaws did the same,

so lets say these are true,im wondering,without looking at it from the perspect,all cultures talk on a intrinsic energy.I'm wondering we as a similar monkey species is there some sort of say.."subconscious interaction between our species"do all species have it.

ANY THOUGHTS UGUYS

[Steven T. Richards]

Hi Diego,

Scientific research into healing and psychological 'states' has shown a positive correlation with 'prayer' - like activities - I say 'like' because the effect is not limited to prayer as such - of any religion or persuasion.

The mechanism involved is psychobiological - mind-body transduction and modulation of 'information' via information substances: messenger molecules thru the psycho-neuro-endocrine and psycho-neuro-immune systems.

Other 'state' encoders such as the pH balance of the body have an effect too.

A culture or belief provides the legitimising context for therapeutic changes to be effected.

If you check out the two books by Rossi and Rossi and Cheek I mentioned in my first reply to Cody, you'll get all the references and research data that you need.

You could also put the 'Ernest H Rossi home page' into your browser and get Dr Rossi's web site complete with references and printable papers.

Rossi is 'cutting edge' in the field and a very helpful individual in disseminating information.

BTW, thanks for your very kind comments, sorry that I've been neglecting the Tibetan Network, I'll do my best to put the promissed input into the development process. Thanks too for your information which has been very helpful.

Kindest Regards,

Steve.
PS Jack, thanks for oferring to disseminate that paper, please feel free.

Cheers,

Steve.

[prana]

Steve,

Although my opinion is on the opposite shore as yours, I respect your opinion.

So by your last post, did you support or deny healing through prayers ? . Don't worry, you wont offend me.

I wanted to lead you to the life of the 16th Karmapa.


When the immortal enlightened mind of the Sixteenth Karmapa left its physical shell, his body remained in gentle meditation for three days, during which time the heart centre remained very warm and the skin supple. This was attested to by the doctors despite all the other clinical symptoms of death. Amazed, some of the medical staff visited the holy place of his room, to witness the impossible. Only after three such days did the usual manifestations of death appear.

A doctor said, on CNN, it was impossible, the area around his heart was still warm up till the 3rd day of his passing. Before his death he would have extreme cases of cancer, and then it would disappear and another cancer would appear from elsewhere. It was as though they would arise and disappear. Some nurses witnessed him sitting in meditation, and when asked if he was okay, he would smile and say everything is good when any layperson would be in extreme pain.

You should also seek eyewitness during his cremation at Rumtek in India.

You should check out CNN's eye witnesses on the story of the passing of the 16th Karmapa. If you are a skeptic, it would either disgust you, or send shivers down your spine. There are many other 'miracles' that occured during Karmapas life, if you are so interested.

[diego]

jf springer asked kung lek in a earlier post,if he could link your paper,if i request on a new thread to all the forum administrators,would you be comfortable posting the hyperventilation&induced trance states in the martial arts,and possibly the other one you sent me,FOR THE LIFE OF ME I CANT REMEMBER THE TITLE,I THINK IT WAS SOMETHING LIKE ANTHROPOLOGY IN THE MARTIAL ARTS?;if they could post it at the top of the main forum index,under the locked thread where gene always says the updates.Maybe post it as a locked thread for a monthe or so,then forum members could possibly discuss in another post....maybe it will get the forum moving inline on-topic,then maybe every month or so other members could submit articles for discussion,hope this isnt a sort of anoying request,i didnt ask in pm because i want the cheering squad support of the other posters,to get you-gene-and kunglek/renegade monk,to take this into consideration.

SEEMS LIKE A GOOD/FUN IDEA TO ME....

[SevenStar]

"Someone said on this forum that they knew a ninja that could rub his hands together and make the wind blow, and they were serious about this"

That was me, and I stand by it. I know it sounds hard to swallow, but I saw with my own eyes. At first I thought it was coincidence, but I saw him do it several times after that. There is a term for the technique, and someone on this forum posted the name. That thread was probably deleted during the forum move though, I'll check.

[diego]

NINJAS BLOWN WIND PSSSH YA RIGHTE,NEXT YOUR GOING TO TELL ME YOU CAN DO TWO TORNADOE KICKS AND LAND ON THE KICK IN SUCCSESSION!!!:rolleyes: UNO IT WAS A FLUKE:cool:then you fell on your fruity ass,yah thats it you slipped in ballet class doing a sillouette,



little pink22s and the like







FRUITCAKE







(SMOOOCHESZ):

[Steven T. Richards]

Hi Diego,

Yeah I'd be happy with posting them so-long as Gene OK's it, and, so long as its understood that they were intro level.
I'd be up for discussion on them and I think that your idea of time to read them before ploughing-in is a good one.

Cheers,

Steve.

[Steven T. Richards]

Hello Prana,

Thank you for your post.

To be frank, I've worked with so much death and with so very many dying people, and seen so much of real life and the occult that I'm unlikely to be either disgusted or to have the shivers about anything. If you read back a few posts to my reply on this thread to Cody you'll get a brief idea of my background.

I try to live and let live with respect to different viewpoints and experiences, which was the point of my posts with Delicate, but, also to express the truth that range and depth of experience shapes who we are. I try not to play that 'card' but to deny what I've done in my life isn't healthy for me - I may as well just drop off the forum and get on with living than do that.

Regards,

Steve.

[David Jamieson]

Perhaps you could submit the article for consideration in the e-zine or the publication?

It would be Gene and Martha's call on that.

Gene's pretty approachable about all things dealing with Kung Fu practices both external and esoteric.

peace

[SevenStar]

You're just jealous cuz you can't do the kick

[diego]

.....:D

[diego]

more knowledgeable martial artists writing a thesis breaking down aspects of martial arts,then we get to break it down.
]
It would be nice if we had a # of substantial posts defining universal attributes and traits in martial arts,from a more cultural-esoteric view and with the scientific western descriptions to back it up/and define it.
such as what is chi-some say intrinsic energy-so is it a plasma-maybe they will say its invisible,okay then lets talk on its streampaths,how it moves in the body,what bodily fluids can you inspect to better help define its flow and the like.
Stylized articles are good for the ezine n mag,we need flowing topics to build discussion that is not only related to southern styles'etc,it would be cool if we could break down,the general traits in kungfu,as oppossed to western boxing and the like.