what is wing chun?

[CanadianBadAss]

The SLT is the nucleus of WC, every thing else stems from it; so if one lineage does the SLT with their muscles flexed, with "dynamic tension", and the other does it really relaxed the end result will be two very different styles of WC... They both look the same from the out side, and both have a few similar principles (economy of motion and what not) but I'm sure most of these principles could be found in JKD, but that still doesn't make JKD wing Chun... Are they only called WC because they both started from the same place? What makes Wing Chun Wing Chun?

[straight blast]

Very good question. I'd actually like to hear the answer more than hearing the lineage arguments that are about to ensue...

[Jeff Liboiron]

I agree with straight blast. I am also new to wing chun (5 months) and would like to hear what everyone has to say.

[vingtsunstudent]

having seen a few different way wing chun is performed i to thought that this may make for different versions of the one system but it is surprising how although they may look different, they still feel like wing chun.
on the other hand i have seen wing chun that looks the same & even feels the same but when it comes to use some are used in a far less economical way.
so to answer your question, i would have to say that based upon looks alone you can not tell.
the chances are we will all lose fights, does this make our wing chun bad or does it just mean we came up against a better opponent. just because someone from a, supposedly, weaker version wins all his fights does this now make his version better & we should all jump ship to his version or has he just fought opponents of lesser skill or even is he just a naturally gifted fighter.
practice & learn to think & use wing chun based on its original ideas(ie economy of motion, continuous forward pressure, facing etc) which all wing chun schools share no matter how they look & you will be using wing chun.(hopefully)
vts

[saulauchung]

The ultimate test in anything is whether it can be used in the actual environment which it is intended to. To put it simply: can you use your techniques in a real situation? If you can't, then your Wing Chun (or JKD, Tai Chi, Karate, Judo, etc, etc) is useless even though you may win the fight using techniques that is not 'wing chun'. Some may argue that as long as you win then that's ok, but I have to disagree on this. What is the point of spending so much time and money on learning something and when it comes to crunch time, you can't use it!

By not 'wing chun' I refer to whether the techniques used are found within the three hand forms, wooden dummy forms and the two weapons forms; and if not, still abide by the principals as laid out in the kuen kuit.

My Sifu once told me that he used to shout out the wooden dummy sequence number of the next technique he intends to use to his opponent during gor-sau, and still his opponent could never capitalise.

:cool:

[rubthebuddha]

the best answer, albeit a bit cliche, i can come up with is this:

a martial art that conforms to three main principles:
1. economy of motion
2. use the fewest techniques to deal with the greatest number of attacks
3. skill and technique are more important than strength.

along with these comes several other principles, but i think these three categorize the majority of wing chun's important elements. would anyone like to take on the part of mindsets -- how one mentally approaches it?

[whippinghand]

Originally posted by CanadianBadAss
Are they only called WC because they both started from the same place?
I'd have to agree with this. In my opinion, what makes the differences in the lineages is the little quirks and ticks, that make that person's Wing Chun less refined. Over time, having passed on the system, quirks and all, and that system having been passed on with more quirks, you have many unrefined derivatives, including JKD at the highest level of unrefinement. So what is the difference between lineages, and what makes one better than another? The level of refinement.

[kungfu cowboy]

I'd say that makes sense.

[jesper]

WH said: I'd have to agree with this. In my opinion, what makes the differences in the lineages is the little quirks and ticks, that make that person's Wing Chun less refined

Do you mean that the system has become something less for each generation ?
If thats the case, then who made the perfect system.

Remember that WT is not a set of technics, but more a collection of principles. So as long as you follow these, it doesnt matter that much which technics you use.

And that is also a reason for the many "lineages", since your supposed to develop your own personal "style" when you reach a certain level of comprehension

[whippinghand]

Originally posted by jesper
Do you mean that the system has become something less for each generation ?
In many cases, in many lineages, perhaps all, unless there was one student that ventured out, researched, and was intelligent enough to make some connections.

If thats the case, then who made the perfect system.Dunno, wasn't born yet. And right now there isn't one.

Remember that WT is not a set of technics, but more a collection of principles. So as long as you follow these, it doesnt matter that much which technics you use.
Correct, but it DOES matter how you represent those principles through your techniques. That's where the quirks and ticks come in. Remember, people will not follow the principles in the same way, because everyone has different ticks and quirks to add.

And that is also a reason for the many "lineages", since your supposed to develop your own personal "style" when you reach a certain level of comprehension

This "certain level of comprehension" that a student may achieve only signifies the sifu's "level of comprehension". Thus, the need to "personalize the style". The concept of "your own personal style", is just the self-issuance of permission to accept the useless quirks added to one's manifestation of the art. This permission is also given by some sifus to mask their own inability and/or laziness to refine.

[CanadianBadAss]

"This "certain level of comprehension" that a student may achieve only signifies the sifu's "level of comprehension". Thus, the need to "personalize the style". The concept of "your own personal style", is just the self-issuance of permission to accept the useless quirks added to one's manifestation of the art. This permission is also given by some sifus to mask their own inability and/or laziness to refine."

WH, I think to reach your full potential in wing Chun you must "personalizing the style" to an extent. When a newbie is first taught the SLT, he learns it exactly how it is shown to him by his teacher. The SLT is about proper body mechanics(and many other things, but thats not point..), and each persons body functions slightly differently, so after training for a while his bong sao might change a bit so it works for they way his body is built. Not "masking their own inability and/or laziness to refine", quite the opposite. On the other hand, some lineages do it the way you described and do each motion exactly as they are taught and eventually, the movements of the SLT just become techniques and the forget about the “proper body mechanics” and replace that power with muscle power...

[Ish]

I'd agree with CBA here. I think when you reach a high enough level of skill with your wing chun (which im no where near yet) you do need to personalise it. This could be a reason why ng mui if you believe in her called the style wing chun after the first person it was tought too. So my wing chun should be called ish because it is my personalised fighting art.

[red5angel]

I too have to concur with CBA. I think to personalize a martial art or to make it your own, is to adapt it to yourself. As an instructor you may even teach it that way, but any good student will reach a level at some point where they should realize that the art they are learning may have to be adapted to thier body type, level of activity, atheletic ability, what have you. The ideal would be to have a set way of teaching a style and then encouraging the students to make it thier own, when they feel comfortable.

[vingtsunstudent]

i don't know if what i'm about to say is what whippy also meant but here goes.
a teacher should teach the art in it's purest form even if he has personalised it.
he may have changed some things to better suit his needs, body shape, etc but if he is a well versed instructor he will teach his students as he should have been taught & then let them make their own decisions as to what works best for them.
again when it comes time for them to teach they too should teach what they were taught not just what they now find works for them.
and so on and so on.
everybody is different & should inevitably discover what is right for them, not be told that their instructors way is better simply because it suits him or he finds that a certain way worked better for HIM. the original way a technique is taught maybe better for you than his new way but you'll never know if he now teaches his way instead of the original way he was taught.
vts

[red5angel]

Vingtsun, I understand what you are saying, ad that is what I myself meant with th ideal situation, unfortunatley, a lot of people find something that definitely works for them, and so apply it to the way they teach assuming that it will work for others. I think this is the biggest reason why some MAs' get watered down.

[whippinghand]

Reread my post, and let the truth sink in.

[CanadianBadAss]

Wow!
It’s hard to explain... It's like I've been blind my whole life... and now I can see again! WH you have shown me the way, the light, the truth. I don’t know how I coulda been so wrong before (and it turns out I was only one reread away from becoming enlightened... just bad timing eh?)

[whippinghand]

And to think that you could have wasted 20 years of your life training crap.

[rubthebuddha]

um, whippy? he's 15.

[whippinghand]

I'm very well aware the CBA is a youngin'. That's my point. Better to realize now, instead of 20 years from now.