charp-chui push-ups

[buksing_king]

Hey everyone
This is mainly directed to anyone out there who practises an art where you use charp-chui ( punuch with foreknuckles) alot.

I was wandering if it is a good idea to do push-ups on your charp-chuis I have seen some people in my class do it but have always wondered what would happen if there wrist slipped( broken wrist?) Or if it is bad for you in anyway ....

Any replies are greatly appreciated

:)

[Sow Choy]

Hello buk sing king!

We do push ups using chop choy as well. using either the index and middle finger knuckles or the bottom middle, ring and pinky knucles.

Usually we start doing them on the wall first to strenghten or fingers and wrists then move into the push ups. I recently have been doing bean bag training which has helped greatly.

Take Care,

Joe

[sampochin]

buk sing just keep going, your knuckles will be ok.
you are talking about knuckles right?
i tried not to do it as it really hurts to do pressups on hard florr.
i started doing 10 - 15 then switching to palms.
I can now go to 50 or so before i really need a breather. But it is worth it. with all the power traing we all do in martial arts, directing that force on to two knuckles can really damage us if we are not conditioned. I've heard many stories of people getting knocked out but at the same time hands getting broken, it doesn't, well,shouldn't add up.
Take care guy and remember to treat your knuckles before and after traing as with any other part of your body that has to endure some level of impact.

[nospam]

Push ups with tsap choi? Wow. That's harsh.

Personally I condition my tsap choi mucho differently, not so...external.

I have, in the past, done kuckle pushups using a normal fist. That's the beauty of the martial arts- there is something for everyone.

nospam.
:cool:

[anton]

Doing pushups on a ny knuckles is not a good idea in my opinion. The prolonged pressure pushes fluid out of the joints and can lead to deformation of various soft tissues in the joint. This can lead to bad arthritis in later life. Someone told me that in Australia martial arts schools (esp Karate schools, which tend traaditionally to adopt this training method as standard) are no longer allowed to make students do knuckle-pushups as part of training.

I prefer to harden my knuckles (whether charp chuis or normal fists) by punching sandbags, phone books (this is handy cos you can remove pages as you feel your knuckles harden, bringing you closer to the wall behind), or just walls. THis way there is only short impact pressure, rather than prolonged presure.

[JAZA]

I agree with anton, an injury can let you out of training a lot of time and with a big bill at the hospital.
Doing unnatural pushups could be harmful, may be if you have a long training of your hands after could be possible.

[CLFNole]

As long as you do the proper preparation you shouldn't hurt yourself. I do chop choy push-ups positioning my hands in the yeung chop choy position (direct panther fist) and in the chueng ahn choy position (flat eye hitting punch). I began against a wall and would do them in the shower. I did this for a few months before going to the floor. You need to strengthen the wrist primarily because this is what can give out if your not careful.

When you decide to take them to the floor if it still hurts go on your knees and do them. I also like to hit the heavy bag with various chop choys to further condition them.

Peace.

[buksing_king]

to all of you out there i do not mean your standardised western boxing knuckles

I am talking abuot the ones closer to your finger tips with lots of wrickles above them( when straight) .... you know the ones

Nice responses guys but is there any other way other than punching a wall or a telephone book in front of a wall to condition them >?

[RAIN]

clfnole

your description about your cheong ahn choy trainning is very informative . but , do you use some liniment like dit da jow ?
or your only conditioning your knuckes without help ?

in my country we can adquire dit da jow becaude nobody make the jow here . you know some others remplacement fot that jow ?
we use a balm called " essential balm " . is the only thing you can buy here . it comes in a coicular red box and smell like hell .

[nospam]

buksing_king,

As you can see, many variations.

I use sand- general and specific hand conditioning from the inside to strengthen my tsap choi (hand in general, but specifically tsap choi).

Using the tsap choi to strike such solid objects like a wall, phine book or even a punching bag is silly, in my opinion. That is not what the tsap choi is meant to do, that is smash things like a normal fist. Tsap choi is a specific tool that is used for a specific outcome- hitting solid (unyielding or too heavy) bags distracts from its effect.

A hanging sand bag is a great way. Also, swing the heavy bag and attack the bag as it moves away from you. But, this is merely how we do things here in the Prairies.

Ok, enuff giving away training secrets for one day ;)

nospam
:cool:

[anton]

Originally posted by nospam
buksing_king,

Using the tsap choi to strike such solid objects like a wall, phine book or even a punching bag is silly, in my opinion. That is not what the tsap choi is meant to do, that is smash things like a normal fist. Tsap choi is a specific tool that is used for a specific outcome- hitting solid (unyielding or too heavy) bags distracts from its effect.

nospam
:cool:

I can see your point and agree that hitting focus pads or light bags may be more useful in teaching you the proper techniques, and providing a realistic level of resiistance. While technique-oriented training is paramont, and should make up the majority of your training, IMHO I can not believe that this will give me the rock-hard charp chuis that I remember my sifu had.
I still think that hitting unyielding objects of progressing hardness is useful - while it will not improve your technique or help you 'feel' something similar to a real situation in which you would use the charp chui, it will strengthen the knuckle and relevant muscles/tendons.

[Charp Chui]

Well there are Charp Chui push-ups and there are Charp Chui push-ups.

Buksing_king are you doing your Charp-Chui push-ups right directly on the knuckles? If so, there maybe some things you need to consider about the natural angle of the Charp-Chui position of the hand.

There are three hinge joints (knuckles) in the fingers, with the exception of the thumb which has two. The main ones used for most striking techniques are the MCP (Metacarpophalangeal) joints. Those are the ones at the top of your plain old fist. The next set are called the PIP (Proximal interphalangeal) joints, the ones you use for Charp-Chui. Consequently the "distal" knuckles are called the DIP joint.

First off, most hands in the Charp-Chui position has the third digit (middle finger knuckle) taking most of the pressure in this flexed position. Unless you are a rare breed that can have all of your PIP joints evenly aligned, which in such a case, the pressure (wether in push-ups or striking an object) can be more evenly distributed. But I'll assume that your hand is more the norm. So if you are doing push-ups directly on the PIP joints, then more than likely it is your third digit PIP joint taking most of the pressure, which inadvertently will not benefit the rest of the other PIP joints (knuckles), unless you are varying the angles of your Charp-Chui to give equal attention to the rest of the knuckles/hand, as was mentioned earlier in one of the posts. If not, and you are doing them directly on the PIP joint, inwhich your middle knuckle is taking the brunt of it, which would not be beneficial and would more than likely be too much stress on the joint/hand in that position.

One way to consider doing Charp-Chui push-ups and conditioning them, is to perform them with the pressure distributed on the phalangeals "between" the PIP and the DIP joints. This can be done (Yueng charp position) by slighlty bending your elbows about 45 degrees toward your body (depending how far apart you are spreading your hands in the push-up position) so that the pressure will be distriduted on the flat surface of the fingers between the PIP and DIP joint. In this way you can focus strengthening the fingers, the metacarpals (back of the hand), and the wrist. Again, the third joint will be taking most of the pressure, but at least in this position more pressure will be distributed among the other fingers of the hand. So I would suggest variations of the hand position to increase attention to the other fingers, as long as the wrist position is able to maintain a safe and straight alignment.

Now concerning the preference of striking objects vs doing push-ups, I beleive both are good as long as they are done within reason. For those suggestions made in an earlier post that mentioned striking a sand bag rather than push-ups, indicated to me that that was supposed to be "safer" is up to personal discretion on this matter. This depends how hard one is striking a sand bag, because if you are striking a sand bag with whatever amount of brute force one may apply, this can actually be worse than doing push-ups. Strike a bag full of sand and you will know...it is hard! With push-ups in the proper position, force can be slowly increased per students tolerance level with reduced risk of injury. (i.e. in standing against the wall, on the floor hinging on the knees, etc...)

Now it has to be remembered though, the emphasis of the Charp-Chui is to have the advantage of creating the greatest amount of damage to soft tissue area, and other vulnerable areas where large bone and muscle mass are not in the way. So slamming into heavy sand bags (or other heavy objects) using the Charp-Chui is not really necessary and often times can cause more damage than good to yourself. Granted, it would be a great feat to slam with a Charp-Chui into a heavy object as hard as one could with a plain old fist or an open palm, but that is not genrally the rule in this case.

It's good to train hard, but train smart...

Charp-Chui

[nospam]

Now it has to be remembered though, the emphasis of the Charp-Chui is to have the advantage of creating the greatest amount of damage to soft tissue area

You hit the heavy bag square centre there, my friend.

nospam.
:cool:

[Jimbo]

In previous years I was able to do Charp Choy pushups on hardwood polished floors and on cement sidewalks, about 10 times, and on a carpet over hard floor about 15 to 20. I also had worked up to several charp choy strikes done fairly lightly against a stationary sand bag. Due to the shape of my hands in leopard fist position, I must use mainly the forward knuckles of my middle and ring fingers...and on a very soft target the foreknuckle of the little finger *might* also make a bit of contact. If I tried to include the index finger knuckle my leopard fist would not be aligned correctly.

I have since given that up and recently began doing charp choy pushups again but VERY lightly...on a relatively thick carpet and on my knees, because I have become very concerned about the possibility of developing problems later in life.

When I was doing the bit harder training I described at the top, even though I was carefully applying dit da jow before and after practicing, I began to experience joint pain. It did not occur immediately, but after a long period of being able to accomplish those drills, because such injuries do not always manifest right away. Therefore I discontinued doing the hard charp choy exercises myself. After awhile the joint pain disappeared, but I could imagine being afflicted with it permanently like arthritis and how debilitating that would be. My own sifu's knuckles are hard like heck, but I guess I'll have to find my own way to conditioning this hand weapon in a way that won't create any long-term problems, even if my own way of doing them seems a bit "soft."
However, I also do not consider the leopard fist as a "Mike Tyson power punch." But rather as a weapon against soft or fragile targets such as the neck, throat, eyes, groin, back of hands, etc., and accuracy is just as important as toughness, but the added conditioning is important for the heat of combat to protect your own hand and of course add to the effect.
Jim

[extrajoseph]

As pointed out by Sifu Lane in similar posting:

http://clfma.com/viewtopic.php?topic=68&forum=1

The prime function of a Charp Chui push up is to build up the strength of your wrist so it will not buckle and break on impact.

The best way is to do it on a layer of sand, where the pressure on the knuckles can be evenly distributed and you can concentrate on sending your jing/qi down onto your knuckles by keeping the wrist straight. It will not only improve your punching but also your chin-na.

Charp Chui push up is not about toughening your knuckles; it is about alignment and about filling up your body parts with jing/qi. This way you will not damage yourself in the long run.

JosephX

[anton]

good idea with the sand!! I always thought that charp pushups would b the best way to strengthen the wrists, but was always hesitant because of the concentrated pressure on my knuckles. I'll definitely be giving this sand idea a try!

[alecM]

anton one of the ways I practice chap chui press-ups is to use two small bags filled with sand.

[T. Cunningham]

"Charp Chui push up is not about toughening your knuckles; it is about alignment and about filling up your body parts with jing/qi. This way you will not damage yourself in the long run. "

Very good info.

[Jimbo]

Thanks for the info about the sand and the concentrating of jing/qi. I can't imagine why I did not think of the sand idea before. Doh! :)
Jim

[premier]

Maybe someone mentioned this earlier in this thread, I know I heard this thing in these forums. Anyway. Someone once said that you can condition your charp choy by hitting those cheap kiddie soccer balls. Put it in a bucket or something, so it doesn't bounce around and start hitting it gently. I haven't tried this myself, but it sounds interesting.

[anton]

Nice idea AlecM, thanks!
I know how you feel Jimbo! Such a simple idea!

[buksing_king]

Thanks for all the replies guys

I now know to do push-ups on sandbags if i am doing charp-chuis

I think this is a great idea as nothing is more painful than a charp to the solaflex

I really am faithfull to the charp-chui and am glad that now i know how to strengthen it i can take someone out with a charp-chui

Anyother suggestions are welcome as there can never be too much information

[extrajoseph]

One more thing others have not mentioned: always follow up charp-choi push ups with some gentle message, flexing of the fingers, rotating the wrists and shaking of hands. It is important to get the blood and the qi running normal again before going onto other things.

If you don't have sand bags handy, use cheap packing foam pieces, add up to about an inch thick, they will be the same job.

JosephX