Ng Mui rambling...

[straight blast]

In a recent issue of KungFu Qigong I read the article about Benny Meng and his research into the history of Wing Chun. I read that he had unearthed that Wing Chun was not created by Ng Mui, but by the Shaolin monks. Though studying the opening stance got me thinking that although it may not have been created by Ng Mui I think it sure as hell was made by a woman.

Take the opening stance. That pigeon toed, knees in stance. I have never seen a man naturally assume that position unless he's just been kicked in the happy sacs (a'la Nichiren :D ). However I have noticed almost all of my female friends (and there are plenty of them) assume that position at one time or another. One girl I'm friends with assumes it 100% of the time when she's doubled over laughing. Another does it when she's talking on the phone. Almost all of them at some point have taken that stance or something very similar, and I'm just starting to notice it because I've been looking for it.

So far be it from me to argue with Benny Meng (as he's devoted his entire life to the subject) but there is definately something female oriented in the opening stance.

Any thoughts?

Keep an eye on your female friends and see if you notice it too.

[Sandman2[Wing Chun]]

Straight Blast:
Interesting post! However, keep in mind that the YJKYM is structurally composed of much more than just "toes in, knees in". Honestly, i've never seen anyone assume the YJKYM "naturally", without some level of wing chun training, in fact while most wing chun postures are undoubtably the most efficient methods of using the human body, I wouldn't really refer to many of the postures as being "natural" ie: something we would tend toward without seriously retraining our bodies away from what comes natural. For myself at least, I found many of the basic movements to be counter intuitive in the beginning of my training, but definately worked better than what I wanted to do instinctively, so I worked until they became the natural thing to do.
Personally, I do belive that WC was created by a woman/women. But really, I think the story of Ng Mui is inherently important, wether it is true or not. When you perform your techniques, ask yourself "Could a small woman working against a larger, stronger opponent make this work the way i'm doing it?" If the answer is no, then you should probably review what you are doing, ask your sifu, and make corrections. Historical acuracy is great once you've been in the art for awhile, but the Ng Mui story provides a usefull starting mental paradigm for "what wing chun is".
Of course, when one considers how ruthlessly efficient the art is, I think it's pretty obvious is was created by a woman.... ;)

[fmann]

When you hang someone and their body goes limp from asphyxiation or breaking the neck, their legs go "toes in, knees in." So in a sense it can occur naturally.

And it doesn't have to be a 100% female stance. Sheep shearers, male or female, use a similar stance to keep a sheep between their legs when they shear the wool off.

[Sihing73]

Originally posted by fmann
When you hang someone and their body goes limp from asphyxiation or breaking the neck, their legs go "toes in, knees in." So in a sense it can occur naturally.

Hi fmann,

I would hate to put this to the test so I'll take your word for it.

;) Still, this seems a bit extreme to call natural as it would seem to be at the end of ones rope :D that this position occurs. But then again, if I ever do decide to hang myself I will have the perfect stance structure, too bad it will no longer be dynamic.

Just having fun :)

Peace,

Dave

[reneritchie]

The Ng Mui legend has been challenged by many (including Leung Ting, Pan Nam, Mok Poi-On, etc.) for decades, so there's not much earth to 'un' (though Meng sifu is one of the most recent and vocal on the matter). With that in mind, each has offered some (often differing) opinion as to why Ng Mui can't have founded WCK, but the truth is, short of a time-machine equipped video-camera, all we can do is talk about likelyhood (very likely to unlikely).

Personally, I also tend to view Ng Mui more as legend than history. Concerning the Yee Jee Kim Yeung Ma (Yee Character Clamping Yang/Goat Horse), you can find similar positions in other martial arts so it may not relate to closely to a female founder (though it would be interesting to wonder about Bagua's Bazi Bu and it's early practitioners being eunuchs... ;)

Rgds,

RR

[anerlich]

Hmmm.

I was watching Da Ali G show last night and a female guest quizzed on him why he sat on the couch with his legs sprawled open, which he (of course) said was due to the abnormally large size of his anatomy.

By your theory, he'd have real trouble doing WC.

However, I am similarly well equipped :) and have not found this to be a problem. So I'm not sure I agree.

Did you ever see Shakin' Stevens, the singer? He used to sing with knees and toes in all the time. Does this say anything ? Probably not, but the thread was a bit twilight zone anyway...

BTW, some lineages use a feet-parallel stance.

[black and blue]

I'm a happy man... Ali G has made it to the land down under!

I'm a little unsure as to whether this humour would translate to the US though:)

As for Shakin Stevens, there are some things that should never have left my little countries shores, though he's Welsh and I'm English... so I'm not too embarrassed.

This post is quite interesting. YGKYM and hanging... sometimes think this is the only solution to all my WC problems:(

Created by a woman? Who knowes. How many women are there in your classes, and does there training compare to the guys?

We have several women - most are very relaxed and seem to find the movements (footwork) second nature, though there is only one I can think of that demonstrates the "I'm gonna take you out quickly and brutally" mentality when training.

She's quite a honey - which raises all sorts of questions. Training with her should be "nice", but multiple bruising from a fox is, well, actually, that's quite nice too!!!

:D

One thing is certain - if WC was created by a women - she was one tough cookie!

[fmann]

When it goes down though, women are more brutal than men IMHO. Men fight mostly for pride: It's all about bobbing, weaving, and looking good as you put the sucka down. Taunting, etc..

Even in the animal kingdom, males fight for pride and property. And to impress the females.

When 2 women go at it, it's all hair pulling, taking off the shoes and beating each other with the 3 inch stiletto heels, etc..

Same thing with wild animals: Usually the females are more deadly when it comes down to throwing down. Whether it's motherly instinct or a stronger sense of self-preservation, who knows.

The demure, shy female is just imagery impressed upon us by our culture and is not indicative of the actual biological machinery working in the background. IMHO.

[JasBourne]

fmann, you've never actually seen two women fight, have you.

I have, both as a spectator and as a participant. I assure you that at no time did anyone engage in "all hair pulling, taking off the shoes and beating each other with the 3 inch stiletto heels, etc".

Please stop assuming that what you see in porn movies is real.

[fmann]

Originally posted by JasBourne
fmann, you've never actually seen two women fight, have you.

And I presume you've seen EVERY woman fight?

Have you seen a female boxing match? A female Muay Thai match? I take it you've never been to NYC in the afterhours? Or a funk ball in Rio? Which, btw, you see girls with broken arms, gashes across their faces, etc., and where they do bash each other with their heels...

The ones I've seen and fought against in a street confrontation are not worried about pride. they are worried about bashing your skull in cause you just beat the crap out of their man.

Then again, I live in a very urban environment, skewing my perspective.

And I forgive you for insulting me regarding your porn comment.

[JasBourne]

S'okay.

I will concede that I have not seen every single fight between two women. But I have seen a heckuva lot of them, in varied places around the globe. Professional and amateur boxing, muay thai matches, gangbanga barrio chix, college betties at keggers, ***hags at european queer bars, suburban housewives at the daycare etc etc. The only time I ever saw a girl use her high heels as a weapon was in the parking lot behind an after hours bar, and she upsided a guy with it.

Where I DO consistently see the cliche of "hair pulling and spike heels b!tch slapping" is porn flicks and stripjoints that feature mudrasslin'. Ergo, the assumption behind my statement.

;)

[Majic Sam]

LOL @ Shakin' Stevens ref!!!

[fmann]

Well the point was raised that someone did not think that the style could have been created or influenced by a woman.

My examples were merely to illustrate the fact that women can have a martial mentality and therefore you can't dismiss the possibility of the Ng Mui/Wing Chun legend.

[reneritchie]

Though I can't remember the names used, in Douglas Wiles (sp?) book, Ancesters of Tai Chi, he shows a very old story (from one of the earliest dynasties) of a King who sought a female Wuxia (Mo Hop, martial hero) to teach sword techniques. Fighting women, it seems, have been around for millennia 8)

Rgds,

RR

[Frank Exchange]

Although I also think the legend of Ng Mui to be just that, a legend, I think it is more than likely that women were involved in the creation and evolution of WC.

The emphasis on structure, timing, and sensitivity rather than brute strength and speed would seem to point to this.

But, as Rene points out, we will never know. Unless someone suddenly produces a hitherto hidden primary source, perhaps entitled "Ng Mui: My Life In Wing Chun" :) Well, it would be nice.

[reneritchie]

Hi Frank,

Another thing to consider: was WCK created with all those refinements, or did they develop over several generations, before and after the WCK name came about?

WCK went through its time on the Red Junk, where many skilled martial artists (including White Crane, Hung, Hakka, etc.) could be found. It went through its time in the Guangdong constabulary and in Foshan challenge matches. And it went through its time when many of its most renowned practitioners were small, slight, and eventually elderly men not in the best of health (whose requirements for many of the characteristics you name were probably just as great). Even now, its gone through fighting in Guangzhou and HK, into the rest of the world, and is being practiced on a far wider scale, and tried against a far broader range of other approaches.

Rgds,

RR

[Frank Exchange]

Seeing as wing chun is evolving even now, I think it highly likely that its refinements evolved along with it, over many generations, and lineages.

All combat forms develop over time, as skilled practioners add, take away and refine the core skills.

[fmann]

No doubt that there is an evolution of the system as various people add and take away.

I wonder if the progression has slowed or is it going along the same speed? I mean you look at the outcry people get for changing or "modernizing" some of the teaching methods, etc.. There just seems to be a very strong bias towards saying "I'm the most traditional, my wing chun is the most original, etc.."

I wonder if that attitude is stopping the growth of the system.

[JasBourne]

I wonder if that attitude is stopping the growth of the system

I don't really think so. That kind of wasteful posturing does contribute to the proliferation of "mcKwoons", but for the most part, I think it does little to harm serious wc training halls and clubs that have "do whatever works to make your wing chun good" as their focus.

[whippinghand]

How do you think Wing Chun is evolving now...?

[yuanfen]

AS far as Yip man wing chun--- we wouldnt be here without him.
He was a TCMA genius.
Now?

More A students than ever before and many many more C, D, and
E/F students than ever before. Both the vertical(quality )spread
is wider and the horizontal(quantity and geography) spread
is so much broader, IMO of course.

[whippinghand]

Frank, ignore my last question.