Horse Bench

[ShaolinTiger00]

Of all my traditional training tools, I always end up practicing with the horse bench. My sifu would not let men touch another weapon until we could perform the form to his satisfaction. He always stressed its importance.
Arm/wrist strengthening -(i'm telling you....try swinging this thing around. or try sitting in a parallel horse stance and grab the bench by the bottom of two legs and hold it out in front of you arms parallel.)

coordination - used both as a long range weapon and short with kicks, dives, rolls and rolling the bench across your shoulders.

history - intro for young students into chinese tea ceremonies and ettiqute(sp?)

I just wanted to see if other KF people used the horse bench and wondered if it was such a large part of training.

[EARTH DRAGON]

I have trained using railroad ties. sitting in horse with one across your leags and one across your extended arms. And also using cinderblocks for various things. but never a horse bench. but it sounds interesting as well as tiring. Just when you thought you wee trining hard Check out his picture............. below

[JWTAYLOR]

What's a Horse Bench?

JWT

[ShaolinTiger00]

a bench for sitting, quite common in chinese tea houses back in the golden years

think of a sawhorse. turn the top flat on its side and lower the legs to sitting height.

[Ralek]

ichiwawa.

[Ralek]

I don't use horse benches.

[ShaolinTiger00]

Bakamoichigei Ralek-son.

[kungfu cowboy]

Not buying the fingerstand.

[Ralek]

Do the horse benches help develop chi power? Or is it only external power?

[ShaolinTiger00]

I'm not the guy to ask that question to. I'm not sure if chi exists. If it does then I don't think you can gain it. Its something you have at birth and could only learn to cultivate.

To me its strength training and stamina. Weights or dumbells would give you the same benefit but the bench is a nice tool and a heavy chair can work in its place.

[ShaolinTiger00]

I purchased "the Legend of the Drunken Master" this past weekend and saw a great scene with Jacki fighting off an entire horde of bad guys while swinging around a horse bench!

although it was coreographed fighting he still used many of the techniques that are in the form I learned.

-Using the legs in an uppercut fashion
-Swinging the bench above the head and at the ankle level to "sweep" the room.
-Trapping opponents arms with the legs of the bench
-Rolling the bench across the back of your shoulders to transfer the weapon to the other hand

I've always admired this unique yet plain "weapon" for its amazing versatility.

btw: Wasn't there a recent article in Inside KF on this recently? (my apologies to Gene)

[EARTH DRAGON]

shaolin tiger 00, I was just floored by your comments

I'm not the guy to ask that question to. I'm not sure if chi exists. If it does then I don't think you can gain it. Its something you have at birth and could only learn to cultivate.

To me its strength training and stamina.
were you being serious???????????

[EARTH DRAGON]

what arent you buying? that it cant be done? please........

[Qi dup]

I believe the two finger handstand can be done. I've seen it done with two fingers using both hands. i'm not even going to get involved in the 'chi existing' thing.

The horse bench seems like a good thing to know for sure. It seems like it would be great for strength training as well. Are you pretty good at it? So there's a form for the horse bench? Can you do it with speed and power?

[ShaolinTiger00]

Earth Dragon,
I'm just not sure. I'm certainly not rallying against it but I'm trying to keep my mind open and accepting to all.
By my own experience and training I have practiced the arts of cultivating these inborn properties. When I do wild goose qigong I "feel" my chi rise and settle. I can feel it fill my dantien and push to my extremeties. I become more intense and alive after these excercises. When I punch I can feel the root of my power come from the soels of my feet thru my trunk thru my knuckles. I feel all the things that I have been taught.

I just wonder, "What if this is in my head?"

qigong=hyperventilation and trance like psycho induced ? I don't know the answer... somewhere in this lies a buddhist reality. (being very subjective) does it work for me because I believe?

I'm very skeptical of Eastern medicine (with the exception of accupuncture.)

wow were starting to get on 3 different topics (all cma related though):

bench,
does chi exist?
eastern medicine

In my opinion i think that this is really the true allure of kungfu. It is more of a lifestyle than just a form of combat. It is a philosophy, a history, several sciences (botany,internal medicine etc.), health and better living, character and showmanship (wushu, lion dancing, musical instruments) and yes.. fighting skill.


Qi dup,
am I good at it? yes sir. I "own" this form!

speed and power? Plenty of it!

[Ralek]

Shaolin Tiger. How do you feel about the fact that in san shou they never use any kung fu moves but they do use kickboxing and wrestling moves?

Do you think this proves that kickboxign and wrestling moves are more effective than kung fu moves?

[ShaolinTiger00]

Ralek. san shou uses shuai chiao (chinese fast wrestling) for its takedowns and throws. Shuai chiao is the oldest form of combat in china (most civilizations had some form of wrestling) and is truly the foundation for any effective chinese fighting system. You can even see some shuai chiao in taichi. This is how san shou remains a chinese art not just kickboxing and wrestling.
Kickboxing. well I guess Westerners can take credit for the punching as it is stripped down of all the "phoenix eye/chain punching" etc. things and left simple effective techniques.

Ralek this is what I think about the difference between "traditional" kungfu vs. san shou (or muay thai)

in a manner almost mirroring jujitsu and judo. Kungfu ended after the Boxer Rebellion. with no warring and constant testing, it got Very stylized. too much excess began to enter the stytems and forms that were originallytaught as a visual history became an overfull encycopedia containing lots of "what if's" and "magic strikes"

meanwhile the students do not spend enough time on the core and truly important things. and each generation was losing more and more validity. (too busy with unicorn stances..)

just like judo, san shou placed the uttmost importance of going live against another struggling opponent. where randori replaced kata fighting a resisting opponent is 100 times better than practicing a "deadly" technique.

Gloves and padding have allowed these practicioners to substain minimal injuries and continue to practice with safe techniques. -safe does not mean ineffective!!

sanshou like judo works because it is bare bone basic. it is direct and effective and still involves strategy and lots of skill to win.

to practice these basic principles and also include the reality of street fighting tactics eyes groin etc. and you get back to the truth of CMA.

I'd better duck, I'm about to get pelted.....

[Ralek]

So real kung fu doesn't exsist anymore except in san shou. Then that would make real kung fu to be kickboxing and wrestling.

I mean look at a kickboxing video. Then look at san shou. Exact same thing with wrestling takedowns.

Now compare traditional kung fu and san hsou. No similarities at all. Completley different.

[ShaolinTiger00]

So real kung fu doesn't exsist anymore except in san shou. Then that would make real kung fu to be kickboxing and wrestling.
I don't think its exclusive to san shou, but i think its very rare to find it in any traditional school.

I mean look at a kickboxing video. Then look at san shou. Exact same thing with wrestling takedowns.
- I agree. simple effective techniques with gloves. san shou just has shuai chiao takedowns and powerful chinese kicks.

Now compare traditional kung fu and san hsou. No similarities at all.

- well.... i learned most of my kicking techniques from Shaolin (and you remember my kicks being pretty good;) )
the shuai chiao techniques can be found in taichi and bagua.

Most of the chinese systems have a core that is similar to sanshou. They just get to caught up in complex and unrealistic form crap. not to mention the lack of actual fighting to preserve this core.

Things change and san shou is showing the traditiaonal guys that they have had their head in a cloud for too long. Everything changes. jujitsu got stagnant and judo changed it. judo lost its street credability and bjj replaced it. over and over again.. all things change...

[Ralek]

Actually i agree with you shaolin tiger.

Emin Boztepe's students were all KO'd in san shou.
William Cheung's students were all KO'd in san shou.

All the kung fu guys are getting KO'd. This is becuase they can't compare with the real fighting.

[Ralek]

Kung fu has fallen!!!! It does not work in real fights!!!

[ShaolinTiger00]

No replies saying they use the bench?
I'm very suprised.

Anyone?

[Ralek]

Shaolin Tiger. Did you know that i'm going to be fighting another person on January 25? I am fighting JF Springer who is the U.S. representative of Southern Praying Mantis or something like that.

Horse benches aren't anything special. You might as well pick up a chair or something and start hitting people with it.

[ShaolinTiger00]

Ralek. If you joined a BJJ,muaythai,kickboxing,boxing Club, you could fight every week and wouldn't have to beg people to come to Fredneck.

"Horse benches aren't anything special. You might as well pick up a chair or something and start hitting people with it."

you're right. thats what makes it an interesting thing to me. its a very ordinary, very common, item. Its more practical to learn how to fight with a chair than it is a broadsword.

[Ralek]

Shaolin Tiger. That is faulty logic. Horse benches are not common. Benches in general are not as common as chairs. You would be better off training with modern day chairs becuase they are a lot more common than benches let alone horse benches.

[ShaolinTiger00]

I'll agree that chairs are much more common.

so in that regard it would be more "logical" to train with a modern chair vs. a horse bench. but if you already know how to use the bench as a weapon, then a chair would do quite well in a emergency.

Ralek. I guess it is just one of the few things that I hold onto from a traditional CMA training. I still practice the form and it keeps me flexible (standing the bench on its end and kicking over it, monkey roll dives over it, jumping over it, good for wrist strenght too - which is needed for solid punching) Ever see a "strength box" in a gym ? basically a plyometrics tool. this one is just old skool.

[Badger]

So are clawhammers,axhammers,crowbars,sledgehammers,nailg uns,electric saws,chainsaws,jip-rock knives,etc.

I would take Home-Depot-Do over all of the traditional weapons.
Plus they are all legal.








Badger

[Ralek]

Ninjas like to "use their environment". Isn't this just like when the ninja's "use their environment"?

[ShaolinTiger00]

LMAO.

you make me smile big guy :D

[fa_jing]

Since your involved in San Shou, I wonder if you can answer a question: do you see a wide variety of fighting styles among the competitors? I would think given the diversity of CMA you would see some variation. Not that anyone's going to use alot of low stances, that would wear you out in a ring match. Still, I would expect more variation in San Shou than say, western boxing. Which is already pretty varied. Are joint locks/breaks legal, does anyone try to fight this way?
Thanks
-FJ

[NorthernShaolin]

Shaolintiger00

I know a bench set. It called Long Bench set and it is from Kuo Yu Chang's Northern Shaolin. Not many people are learning this set today.

[ShaolinTiger00]

Fa jing,

The difference in san shou competitors style varies from person to person. Its not really a fighting style difference as much as it is a personal style. for example look at a group of sanshou fighters from Boston. Marvin Perry has amazing kicks, while Albert Pope has great takedown skills, Rudi Ott (no longer there) has reat hands. 3 guys from one school, each with a personal flavor.

[Merryprankster]

Shaolin,

Nice to see you again!

I understand Mike Krivka is now teaching MT at Rockville? A little welsh bird told me :)

[apoweyn]

who are you calling 'little.' [grin]

[Merryprankster]

Ok, ok!

A umm... freakishly strong, cut and muscular, bad ass welsh bird told me.

[apoweyn]

[laugh]

don't know who that guy is, but i ain't crossing him.

[ShaolinTiger00]

MP,
The way he gulps down sushi, I'd call him a penguin rather than a bird..:p

[apoweyn]

LOL

[GeneChing]

Shaolintiger00

I know a bench set. It called Long Bench set and it is from Kuo Yu Chang's Northern Shaolin. Not many people are learning this set today.

Read The Bench: Traditional Furniture and a Shaolin Weapon By Rick L. Wing

http://www.kungfumagazine.com/admin/site_images/KungfuMagazine/upload/2858_KFM2018-February-COVER.jpg
JAN+FEB 2018 (http://www.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/article.php?article=1390)

Thread: SHAOLIN SPECIAL January+February 2018 (http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?70538-SHAOLIN-SPECIAL-January-February-2018)
Thread: Bench (http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?8479-Horse-Bench)