Board Breaking

[Mr Nunchaku]

I was wondering if different CMA schools do board breaking. Is it as common as it is in karate or TKD?

[Xebsball]

Its definately not as common as in TKD and Karate...

We dont do it here, i belive very few kung fu places do.

[joedoe]

Boards *shakes head* don't hit back.

Sorry, had to get that in first :D

[EARTH DRAGON]

Board breaking is nothing more than a attempted display of self achived false acomplishment and nothing more. It is a cheap way to make one feel like they are strong or powerful by the ability to break things with their bare hands. However pine boards dried and cut with the grain can be broken by a child of 9 or 10 with no training at all for they are not a true test of anything other than the use of fire wood. I once met a guy 4 th degree who told me he could break a 10 inch board with a palm strike. Being an iron palm guy and realizing that his breaks were nothing more than a stage act I said if you can break 10 , 1inch boards for a total of 10 inches than it would be easier to break 2 inches right? he said I guess so , I then said OK break this 2x4 he said no I cant I said why , he said its not the same... I said your right it should be easier to break just 2 inches of wood as opposed to 10 inches he said but I have to have spacers........................ I rest my case next youll talk about ice breaking which is almost as easy... want to impress someone? crush a coconut with a hammer fist

[Aramus]

Boardbreaking can teach at least one thing besides just looking cool (yes, you can make it easier or harder). It can teach a student to not focus on the obstacle to break but behind, etc. to generate more power, keep speed up, etc. However, after doing just that...it isn't as neat to the breaker anymore. It may help with confidence and not false confidence if you have a good instructor...yes, you can break the board maybe even fast, live opponents are different.

I've broken a few boards (on the ground, being held, throwing it up in the air for a speed break, etc.) but it really isnt' that much fun anymore, sigh.

Peace ...or flame on, whatever makes you happy.

[Mr Nunchaku]

What is your problem, ED? You can't just go throwing your opinions around like that. It makes you look ignorant. Since this is now a debate on wether board breaking is useless or not let me first say that all you have is an opinion and that masters and grandmasters all over the world do not share your opinion.

9 and 10 year olds can break these boards? I don't know what kind of boards they are using but grown men can't break the ones we break, which is the standard board most places break, not on their first try anyway. It takes training. So if this is a stage act, then who cares because it took a lot of training to do it.

As for being a means of showing off, according to that logic, anything related to training is showing off. And that can be true. Sparring can be showing off, forms can be showing off. But just like board breaking can be showing off, it also is often not. Someone testing in karate breaks their board in front of a few instructors is not showing off.

Confidence booster? I would feel more confident about myself if I could break a board that I wasn't able to before. But confident about being able to fight on the street? Is that what you meant? No you shouldn't feel more confident about yourself in that way just because you can break a board. Nor if you can do your form well or even spar well. So what does that have to do with board breaking?

[joedoe]

Actually, he can throw around his opinions if he wants, just like you can. It is a kung fu forum - a place for people to debate and discuss aspects of Chinese MA. He has every right to voice his opinion whether they are correct or not.

[Tae Li]

I think board breaking is ok. AND if some people feel its a good confidence boost then so be it. Everyone gets tere confidence from somewhere and some people just happen to get it after breaking a thick thing wood with their bare body..there is nothing wrong with that. After is is ONLY part of a artial art, and not a very big part I might add, so there no need to get so *****y about it.

Tae Li;)

[Budokan]

Board breaking is a good exercise to fine tune your mental concentration. And, yes, boards do hit back. Newton's Third Law says so.

[Jeff Liboiron]

Originally posted by Mr Nunchaku
What is your problem, ED? You can't just go throwing your opinions around like that. It makes you look ignorant.

This forum is friggin BASED on peoples opinions and ideas man, so yeah, he can throw around his opinions all he wants, and saying that he can't makes YOU ignorant.

[Tae Li]

Originally posted by Tae Li
I think board breaking is ok. AND if some people feel its a good confidence boost then so be it. Everyone gets tere confidence from somewhere and some people just happen to get it after breaking a thick thing wood with their bare body..there is nothing wrong with that. After is is ONLY part of a artial art, and not a very big part I might add, so there no need to get so *****y about it.

Tae Li;)

im correcting my own spelling.....After all,it is only PART of the martial art, and not a very big part. There. That sounds much better.;)

[PHILBERT]

I remember the first time I broke a board. I was supposed to use the back part of my hand (where the pinky finger is located). I did not realize this and used my knuckles and broke it in half on the first try. I watched a 10 year old (blue belt) try to break one smaller and took him about 9 tries before he did it. I did it mainly because I use to punch stuff when I was young and so my hands slowly lost nerves. It still hurts, but not as much.

[jon]

"yes, boards do hit back. Newton's Third Law says so."
-I gotta admit that pretty much throws a spanner in the works now dont it!


I wouldnt say board breaking was useless but not a really high level skill either. Ive done proper boards and there not to hard to break but not easy either. Baked boards like the ones used in many demonstrations will snap if you stare at them wrong. Breaking bricks is a better skill in some ways though still not really telling of fighting skill. I mean real red bricks not the crummy ones that are yellow in colour and crumble.
Real breaking is a proper skill, iron palm has it and some traditional kung fu has it. Coconut breaking is a part of many chinese systems. A coconut is round and if its placed strait on the ground the impact must be perfect to break. If its off even slightly the coconut just spins. Same can be said for a hanging coconut.
I think breaking shouldnt really be focused on to much though, in a fight your target does not stay still, so training to constantly hit a static target will eventualy bring problems.

[Budokan]

I was wondering about the coconut breaking thing. Is there a weak point somewhere on the shell that if struck properly initiates shell-fracture? Since it's not a perfect sphere there must be a stress point that once struck would render the results a breaker desires....right?

[jon]

I think its mainly to do with the angle of the force.
It has to penetrate directly though the centre, when done properly the coconut litteraly explodes not simply snaps. Its difficault to be able to pick the exact balance or centre of the thing, even harder when its resting on the ground.
That said i cant speak with to much authority on the subject as errr ive never actualy done it:p I know that the skill however is very advanced and tends to be a masters skill.

[Budokan]

Okay, I see. You're saying that as you hit and deform the shell with a strike it generates internal pressure inside and that's what shatters the shell. Makes sense, actually.

[Mr Nunchaku]

Sorry if I came on too strongly, ED. But all I was asking is if kung fu schools do board breaking or not. And you talked like you had proved something about board breaking, and I just wanted to make sure you know that I'm not trying to impress anybody or anything like that. Again, I apologize.

[Leonidas]

Breaking has a very important purpose. It's a test of your IRON PALM skills. Thats the only way you would show improvement save for trying to punch through someones ribcage *Ouch* It takes a lot of skill to perform and if a 9 or 10 year old can break it it's not really strong wood. I can break any peice of dryrotted wood without any traning and i have. Its a part of many Kung Fu styles and not just Karate or TKD. Would you call Ku Yu Cheong unskilled.

[jon]

"Would you call Ku Yu Cheong unskilled?"
Im surprised bricks didnt cotton on to the fact they were gonna die and simply shatter at the sight of him;)
That is one palm to avoid...

[don bohrer]

Board breaking can show flaws in your technique. The better you execute your technique the easier the break, right? Some schools add more and more material to the break at higher belts. Anxiety or fear while breaking can be an obstacle to success! Now should we equate breaking with the ability to fight (NO!). It is just one of many ways to measure success. The confidence gained from breaking is a tool which could help improve your MA.

[Leonidas]

**** this forum has glitches, or is it my sh*tty computer.

[PHILBERT]

Well, if you hit a wooden board 10 times, you better get it to break. The kid couldn't break it on his first try, probably each time he hit it, it cracked a little more before it gave way. The stuff we used were not baked boards. At least, I don't think so, unless Home Depot sells the boards dried up.

That's pretty cool about the coconut thing though. I bet if you hit it incorrectly, you will probably tear your hand up pretty badly. I might have to look into it (but not try it).

[Leonidas]

Greeeat i lost 2 loooong messages.............The point is that Breaking is not useless, end of story.

[EARTH DRAGON]

apology accepted, I was never really upset at your response but I would just like to get my point across that board breaking is not a test of skill, I am not saying that it is useless for it builds hand eye coordination, but it is far from a judging point of your skill level. as for the boards that 9 or 10 year olds break as well as black blets they are the standard 12w x12h x 1 inch thick pine stacked apart by spacers which is a trick to impress people! see if you can break just 1 board the concussion of the break breaks all the othes this is also true with ice. So if you want to test your skill try lying your hand on the board and twisting you waist to perform break without lifing your hand. that will determain your skill for a real break is done with chi not with muscles or strength.

I am a iron palm practioner and have no respect for wood breakers fo they are not a true test of any kind of skill besides hand eye cordination. It you think not then ask a board breaker to break a 2x4 it is the same thickness as 2 , 1 inch boards I bet they will say no, for they too know the trick to a break.
its like asking a magicain if you can look into the hat first.........

[Fu-Pow]

My Sifu says the true test is whether or not you can break a board that is held only at one end. This shows how much explosive force you can generate. If you think about it force equal mass x acceleration. So you either have to have mass or acceleration. If a board is suspended at both ends, the more weight I put on it eventually it will break. The acceleration comes naturally from gravity. Thats part of the reason why when these big fat guys break boards so easily. For them its no sweat. They've got the mass behind them. Once they get moving its not a problem. However, if the board is loosely suspended the more weight I put on it the more it moves away. So that means I can't just rely on my weight to push me through. . I have to accelerate so quickly that the middle of the board is moving away faster than the outsides of the boards and so it breaks. Easier said than done. You might start with something easier, like paper.

[EARTH DRAGON]

heres a break for you fu pow, suspended from a rope to go along with what you said but john my iron palm teacher uses concret slabs.......

[Fu-Pow]

Yep, exactly what I'm talking about.

It would be even harder with something lighter like wood.

Nice break.

[Mr Nunchaku]

ED I don't like the fact that you don't respect us for board breaking, but that's your opinion. But its my opinion that I can't stand it when you say you are iron palm and you can judge board breaking as inferior and for show and not a test of skill.

I wish you would seperate between the board breaking for show and the true test of skill that is board breaking in class. Also, it does test your skill. Not as a fighter but of your technique. The idea is that you should be able to do the technique so well you break through wood. So please forget about the showiness and all that because that is irrelevant to the real deal.

I've seen breaking the board without lifting your hand off the board. We don't even talk about chi and we (not me but more advanced) are able to do that. You can generate a tremendous amount of strength with your whole body.

My instructor's instructor came one time and was talking about board breaking. If you don't think this is a truly skilled break than there is something wrong. He took three boards and simply stood them up balanced on their sides. They stood up parallel with each other. He uses a knife hand strike and cuts through all three. Nothing was anchoring them. You have to have great technique and speed to do that.

[EARTH DRAGON]

you said
ED I don't like the fact that you don't respect us for board breaking, but that's your opinion. But its my opinion that I can't stand it when you say you are iron palm and you can judge board breaking as inferior and for show and not a test of skill.

I never said that I do not respect you personally, for I do repect you and your opinon, however you said..
The idea is that you should be able to do the technique so well you break through wood. So please forget about the showiness and all that because that is irrelevant to the real deal.

that is my wole point breaking WOOD is not a test of any kind of skill when you are speaking of the real deal as you put it.

also you stated
We don't even talk about chi and we (not me but more advanced) are able to do that. You can generate a tremendous amount of strength with your whole body.

If you are not talking about chi then what it the test? ability ? a real break is done only with chi not with strength or the power of the whole body. So if you dont understand the concept it is impossible to understand to result.
you see when one performs a true break you are using the cultivated chi to destroy the object. this takes many years of skill, when you break wood this is not and never is a true test of a chi break. power is used to perform the break! I have seen guys scream, make faces, yell out KIAHAI break their hand and splinter wood into pieces. these are not true breaks! a true break is performed with little external movement and maximum force internally so the hand barely moves and the object is broken. after you see that you wil understand why wood breakers are for showing off at tournamants and mall demonstrations becuse to the untrained eye it looks very impressive........

[Mr Nunchaku]

I know you never said you disrespect anyone personally. What I meant was disrespecting in this one particular way (the way you said you have no respect for), but I just worded that wrong sorry, but forget about that...

You think I have an untrained eye? You think I have never seen a true test of skill? You say a true test of skill is if you break a board with little effort and without having to be physically strong. Well, that is exactly what I am talking about when I say the real deal! Did you not read my example of a real skillful board break? When first we break the board, we are using all the external strength we have. But eventually we become my instructor Mr. Oaks who seemingly taps the board and it breaks, and he is not big or strong or muscular. Don't assume so much. You and I are talking about the exact same things.

[EARTH DRAGON]

No I am not saying you dont have a untrined eye or that you have not seen a true test of skill, so please do not put words in my mouth or take things so personally, for I am trying to help you understand, but my understanding and what impresses me may be different than what your understanding is. you see I have trained with 2 chinese masters for many years and they have taught me various things some of which I still after 20 years have a hard time understanding. my qigong teacher held up her hand and told me to shove a 9" steel wire through my leg muscle and that she would stop the pain with qigong, after my slight hesitation I slide it till it poped out of the other side and felt nothing. so agin some poeple dont understand what chi is or better yet dont know it exsists, so I say yours and mine understanding may be at 2 different levels.

if we are speaking of the same thing then why are you still breaking wood? why have you not graduated to concrete, bricks or coconuts? ask your sensei to break a coconut with the center of his palm not the heel, then I will respect your breaking technique.....

[Leonidas]

Heres a pic of a REAL Break, Would you want a slap in the head from that guy. :eek: :D It is possible to get that skilled but how would you know you've progressed if you didn't break a few cinderblocks now and then. Wouldn't you be ****ed after studying Iron plam for years and finding out that you couldn't break a brick which is a basic skill. I know i'd be ****ed to find that out in the middle of a fight. I guess it all depends on if your style trains that way, but dont say it's just showing off. it is cool but come on.

[Mr Nunchaku]

I'm not taking anything personally, sorry if I was putting words in your mouth, and you are only helping understand your OPINION. I will say you have a very good and educated opinion.

We do break concrete. I do not. I am on wood right now, due to my low level. But the higher ups do concrete. I just don't understand how you can't think it is skill. The first time I tried breaking a board, I couldn't. I hit it with all my strength and it still wouldn't break. Since then I am no stronger physically, but I can now break that same board. It is because of my technique.

[Mr Nunchaku]

And I thought the example of breaking the board with little effort would help you understand since it is exactly what you are talking about.

[EARTH DRAGON]

Agin I do not wish to fight nor argue but rather help you understand why wood breakers have such a bad rap.

Wood is brittle and snaps very easily, usually wood breakers line up th grain in the direction of the break, they also have to use spacers. These tricks as they are called have no real skill involved you see spacers provide the breaker with concussion therefore the space between causes the break not the person. just ask a guy your higher level fellow students to break a 2x4 it is the same thickness as 2 , 1" inch boards they cannot do it becuse spacers are the trick without them the trick connot be performed.

Dry pine is the easiest wood next to balsa to break. therefore not a hard feat at all, and usually done for demonstrations to non martial artists.or beginners

We are not talking about the same thing at all , A iron palm practioner takes up to one year conditioning his hand by striking sand , rice or iron. and uses Dit Dat Jow an anceint recipe of herbs used to condition the tissue in the hand and bones of the hand. Also we do series of breathing techniques to cultivate the chi in the dantien and practice moving the chi from the dantien to the center of the palm called the lao gung. Do you do this? no therfore your hand has not been properly trained to withstand the slap nor are you useing the proper technique to shoot the chi outward from the hand. You see a true break is done with the cneter of the palm not the heel part of the palm like that when breaking wood. I know that non iron palm breakers cannot understand how to break with out useing force and from the center of the palm only. ask your higher levels classmates about breaking from the center fo the palm they will not know what you are talking about.

I will say that I am speaking from a iron palm practioners veiw point, and I am not saying that your breaking is a joke for it does take eye- hand coordination, focus, and timming to break anything but realize that My point of veiw is taked from a guy who understands all about breaking and my impression of wood breakers is the same as a guy who punches a makiwara board with boxing gloves and says he hands are condtioned to be tough as rocks......

[Mr Nunchaku]

Just to be sure, we are not arguing but are just having a friendly debate.

We do not use spacers, I have never even seen someone use spacers except on TV. When we break 2 or 3 boards it is with no spacers.

As for conditioning the hand. The only injuries we get are when we make a mistake. We do condition our hands less compared to other arts, but we do hit makiwara barehanded. I will admit that we don't condition as much as iron palm but that is because we do not place such an emphasis on breaking.

You have ignored every example I have given of skill.

1. Mr. Oaks breaks three boards with no spacers with a simple jab. He barely used any strength at all. There are tons more examples of this. Mr O isn't even our highest isntructor.

2. I was not able to break a board before. Now that I have much better SKILL and technique I can. I have not gotten any stronger, it is a new learned skill. And my hand-eye coordiantion is no different.

3. We DO break concrete. But you start out with wood. But as you progress you break more and more boards at once with harder techniques to master. You eventually progress to concrete.

That is the second time I have posted those, but now they are together. Before you tell me anything else I wish for you to tell me how the above are NOT demonstrations of SKILL, and to please tell my how those do not require SKILL.

[shaolinboxer]

"my qigong teacher held up her hand and told me to shove a 9" steel wire through my leg muscle and that she would stop the pain with qigong, after my slight hesitation I slide it till it poped out of the other side and felt nothing. "

Fascinating. Hard to believe, but I have seen demonstrations like this. Who is your qigong teacher?

[Mr Nunchaku]

BTW, thanks guys for the breaking pictures. Those are real cool.

[jon]

Just to agree with Mr Nunchaku I spent four years in TKD and a year in Karate, in that time i did several demonstrations and breaks. We used proper non baked boards held by other students meaning if the break wasnt fast the impact was abosorbed by the holder of the board. We also NEVER used spacers EVER.
My old TKD black belt requirement was to break two boards of an inch thick each held together with nearly every major technique from kicks to punches to knifehands. Ive also seen someone punch though two bricks without spacers.
Wood is not as high level as some other things but its where you start. It is traditional and the monks used to test there breaking on wood before moving on to my knowledge as well. Its all in how you do it.
Some choose to do showy demonstrations using baked boards stacked upon the ground using spacers. This is clearly much easyer than doing a strait punch though two one inch thick pine boards held at sholder level by another student.
Its all in the school, some do it the stupid pointless way. Some take the time to learn the way to do it properly and dont take shortcuts.

P.S i regard many breaks you see on tv and in pictures as being not so much fake as easy. So i can see why people come to this conclusion.
Breaks where the object is on the ground are MUCH easyer then when its held. If the object is on the ground you simply drop you whole body wieght into the break. Not hard to break 5 boards with spacers when your dropping 70-80 kilograms onto them.
Doing the same thing with the boards held together as in the above example. I challenge anyone to tell me they could do that with ease.

[jon]

The Korean Tigers break apples... They are that hard:rolleyes:


The apple is unfortunatly resting on the end of a sword held at sholder level by one student who is standing on the sholders of another who is standing on a chair.
Would that be an 'easy' break? Would this classify as martial skill?
Will we all sit here thinking how pointless it is without ever thinking of the possibiltys.
lol these are guys who can walk into a room jump 12 feet into the air kick out the lightbulb then land standing:( Kinda freaks me out. Just try to imagine what they can do with that kind of ablity and accuracy.

[Mr Nunchaku]

Thank you, Jon for two reasons. One reason is your post. The other is what you made me realize about downward breaks. I had no clue what I was doing wrong. At home I would get boards and put them on two chairs with empty space underneath them. No matter what I tried, breathing exercises, focus, keeping my mind clear, yelling, I could not break it. Now I realize the reason everybody else can do it is because they are putting their whole body weight into it while I sitting down can only put my shoulder and down into it.

I guess I should have explained earlier how our school does board breaking...

Until I came to this board I had never heard of baking the boards to make them more brittle. We do not do that. Our boards come straight from Home Depot or Lowe's (hardware store).

Like I said we do not use spacers, I have never even seen someone use spacers except on TV.

The board is held by two people who get into the most solid stance they can. Still though, when you strike the board it moves away from you.

At first you break one board with a hand and foot technique. You progress to two with a hand and foot technique (the instructor always tells you what technique he wants you to do). Later three even four boards held together.

My instructor broke 8 boards with a side kick. We use this device that you place the boards into and you lift the whole thing up and two people hold it so that the boards can be hit with a horizontal strike such as the side kick. The higher ups break concrete.

Another instructor, not the highest, broke through 5 concrete slabs with an axe kick. Again no spacers.

The break I explained done by Mr Oaks was three boards held together, but by only one board holder. Mr O simply pops it with his knuckle. He is average strength and did not hurt his hand. It was a piece of cake to him.

One instructor held the board above his head with both his hands. Another walked up to him, spun, jumped, and round kicked the board. Half of it went flying the other half remained in the holder's hands.

Then I told you the one about three boards simply standing by balance. He knife hands through them and breaks them all.

Do these things and I know that you are skilled, in this one particular area of the martial arts.

[jon]

"Do these things and I know that you are skilled, in this one particular area of the martial arts."

Not to mention a natural enemy to building supplies:p
Seriously though those breaks you discribe are very much authentic breaks and I would venture to say you have some VERY good teachers. If they can break "My instructor broke 8 boards with a side kick." Imagine what must happen if it makes contact with someones ribcage?
Just a thought...
Ahh poor old TKD will they never learn, still stuck in the dark ages with such arcane skills as massive power generation and brilliant body dynamics;)

[Mr Nunchaku]

lol

Again, sorry if it sounds like I am boasting (which is what I'm doing). But I really do think they are awesome and though they don't do these things on TV like the guys you see on ESPN, I think they should get recognized more.

[jon]

There is nothing wrong with being proud of what you study and your instructors who got you to the skill level you have gained.
Infact i admire it and believe it shows respect.
I for one would actualy be very interested in exactly who your intructor is and where they train? They sound very talented and if anyone else here is looking for a good TKD intructor you may well be doing them a favor.
Would you care to list your instructor and where you train?
If not i can totaly understand, it is a bit public but still you may be doing a service:)

[EARTH DRAGON]

I will answer your questions if you will extend the same courtesy towards me OK?
1. Mr. Oaks breaks three boards with no spacers with a simple jab. He barely used any strength at all. There are tons more examples of this. Mr O isn't even our highest isntructor.

ask him to break a 2x4.. it is 1' inch thinner it should be easier, or break just the middle board this is called selcetive breaking, in which chi is used to pass through the first board and break the 2nd and pull it out beofre you break the 3rd.......

2. I was not able to break a board before. Now that I have much better SKILL and technique I can. I have not gotten any stronger, it is a new learned skill. And my hand-eye coordiantion is no different.

its called practice, if you do anything many times you would have to get better! even if it is trial and error causing you do try it again until you can but I bet its practice..... or as jon taught you body weight distribution

3. We DO break concrete. But you start out with wood. But as you progress you break more and more boards at once with harder techniques to master. You eventually progress to concrete.

agreed, we skip past wood but you have to improve with practice and your goals become higher or harder in this matter.


OK now for my questions
1. ask mr Oaks or your highest breaker to perform selected breaking as described above, or break a coconut....

2. ask them to perform a turn/slap break where you place the back of your hand on the board and without letting the fingertips leave the surface pull your hand towards you and turn your palm over and slap the board and break it with the center of the palm.. these are skiled breaks and extremly hard to perform and after you see the results you woill understand where I am comming form..... your freind E.D

[EARTH DRAGON]

Her name is Yen Chu Feng, she is world famous and extremly high level "jin gon tzu li gong" medical qigong. Please checkout my webiste and see the picture I am speaking about located in the masters section of the photots button......

We also did it live on a local TV show here in buffalo and got quite a reaction and 1000's of patients from it please check it out.....
www.kungfuusa.net

[Mr Nunchaku]

No problem at all.

Memphis, Tennessee, USA
The Taekwondo University on Hickory Hill near Mt. Moriah

Head Master 6th degree black belt Master Terry Brumley

4th degree black belt Mrs. Brumley

3rd degree black belt Mr. Tom Oaks (my personal role model)

Those are our senior instructors. But some of the breaks I listed earlier were done a long time ago by people who have come and gone. Over the years our school has gained and loss several really good instructors, for different reasons. I feel I should give credit to all my favorite instructors I have had the privilege to learn from but who have now left for their own personal reasons.

4th degree black belt Mr. Jason Warren (you will still find him at local tournaments with his own team of young aspiring TKD-ists)

3rd degree black belt Mr. James "3" Pierce

and 2nd degree black belt and my own cousin Jason Overstreet (he and Jason Warren are amazing with escrima)

[jon]

With all respects i think your being a little unfair.
The breaks you discribe clearly use internal energy and extreme forms of centrifical force.
The breaks that Mr Nunchaku discribes are technique breaks where the skill is in uniting the whole body behind the strike and driving right though the object.
Obviously the breaks you speak of are a very high level skill but it may also be worth asking yourself if your own teacher could perform some of the kicking breaks Mr Nunchaku discribes with the same skill?
Its all in what you put your effort into, chi breaking is quite different to technique breaking although related. They both involve high levels of training and are both very applicable skills.
Of course i realise that even in energy breaks the whole body is united and they also use technique but i do believe the two are different skills. As i say ask yourself if the same sifu you discribe could perform. "Another instructor, not the highest, broke through 5 concrete slabs with an axe kick. Again no spacers."
Could they even do the kick[please dont take that as an insult its not meant as one]? Do you see where im going here?
No point arguing over who's way is right only worth admiring the skill developed from both camps.
Thats just my opinion and should be kicked around like the load of rubbish that it is;)

[jon]

Good on you:D
If im ever get asked for a good TKD instructor in that area ill know who to recomend.
I enjoyed my TKD training, ive moved on from it now but it was for personal reasons and if my club had a different focus and there was not so much politics i may well have still been there.
Traditional TKD deserves a lot more respect than it gets imho.

[joedoe]

In a way I agree with jon - basically the argument here is really over different perceptions of what is and what isn't a skilled break. As jon says, a genuine break requires some level of skill regardless of whether it is a board, a concrete block, or a coconut.

[Mr Nunchaku]

In response to your response to my questions...

1. If you say that breaking a 2x4 is easier then I guess you already know that he can break it. As for selective breaking that is done by karate and TKD alike. Though if my own instructors can do it or not I do not know. The point is TKD and karate practicioners do board breaking and usually do not talk about chi at all and ARE able to do selective board breaking. BTW you never said how what he did didn't take skill.

2. And yes it was practice. Again you did not explain why I did not break it with skill. I practiced, I now have more skill than I did before. And I cannot put my whole body weight into it because as I said I sit down in a wheelchair. Besides we hardly ever do straight down breaks like hammerfists. Even beginners are told to do something else.

3. I totally agree with you.

As for yours...

1. I already explained

2. I've seen that. Actually I've seen them place their hand on the board and not take any part of it off at all and break it.

As for all these and all the other examples I gave you you still have not told me why they are not skillful. Please tell me that now or admit that maybe what we do does take skill and a whole lot more than focus and hand-eye coordination.

[Mr Nunchaku]

For the record, I am not arguing that the use of chi doesn't exist. I realize that the cultivation of chi is very real and that what people like you, ED, do are very skilled. All I am asking is that you get rid of the thought that board breaking is not skillful. But if you believe that it takes no skill to break boards, only hand-eye coordination and focus, then don't think otherwise. But I would like you to respond to Jon. He brought up some very good points that I would not have thought of.

[Mr Nunchaku]

Jon, thank you for your compliments. You really do honor my school. I appreciate that.

[EARTH DRAGON]

I guess I will just have to say that your understanding and my understanding of breaking techniques differ. I don't mean that in a bad way but I think it's safe to say that we agree to disagree. I do not want you to think that I am in any way saying that I do not repsect you or your teachers when I said that I do not respect wood breakers as I was using the term in general. I too studied karate and obtained my black belt many years ago in okinawan go ju ryu and many times kiahai and used a shoto shuto ridge hand and broke wood but after years in chinese arts and iron palm I realized that I was just breaking wood and nothing else. which after a while seemed rediculously to me

let me tell you a story..... I went to a TKD tournment and the top trophey winner did a board breaking demonstration that made people gasp in awe but made me laugh, at the end of the day I said nice breaks but not to high level eh? he said I would like to see you break that many boards... he was tallking about the 10 different stackes of 5 boards in ech stack with spacers (50 boards in all) then I put 2 pieces of wood together on a judges table and slaped the boards with my palm and then the TKD laughed at me as he looked at the board not broken and said you call that a break? you dont know sh*t about breaking... I said look underneath, he shut up, we became good freinds after that and compare notes about breaking and it wasnt until after I met and talked with him that I realized I had no respect for wood breakers anymore.. so again please dont take it personal, but i wanted that trophey!!!!!!!!! just kidding.... keep on training ....your freind E.D

[Mr Nunchaku]

I respect you and know that you don't disrespect us in general. But why do you disrespect board breaking due to theatrics that you have seen? You look at theatrical breaking, then you read alllll I have explained to you and you compare them as if they were the same thing. I don't think that about anything you do due to theatrics I've seen. You can't rate something based on what you see on the stage. But oh well, if that's how it is.

How can one NOT admit that alllll I have explained that I have seen with my own eyes is NOT skill? It is and I'd like to see anyone give any reason to think otherwise. Everytime I bring this up you simply tell of what you have seen on stage. I don't care about all the fancey baked board, spacered, downward with all your weight breaks that you keep talking about. All I care about is the real deal that I have been explaining for so long that IS obviously a great test of skill.

Sorry, but I just had to say all that. It is the truth and you can't deny any of it. Sorry if I'm going too far in this debate.

[EARTH DRAGON]

I agree with what you said except for.....

"Its all in what you put your effort into, chi breaking is quite different to technique breaking although related. They both involve high levels of training and are both very applicable skills".

This is and was my whole point! true chi breaks have nothing in common with non chi breaks. A good example would be the object in which you are breaking, and the method in how you break. This seperates the two totally and speaking as a chi breaker I have a hard time respecting non chi or strength breaks but that is just me and maybe not true for all, but its like studying martial arts to win trophey's some people do this but others have a hard time respecting it thats all. but no harm done for we are all entitled to our opinons and sometimes mine are wrong but never the less I still have them.....

As far as my shrfu beaing able to perform the kick you were talking about below is a picture... and you can' t tell much from a picture but he is a 5 time asian full contact champion, a chinese grandmaster of 8 step praying mantis and a jewel of china.... so yea I think he could......... your freind E.D

[Mr Nunchaku]

Yes, that is a very nice kick. But you really did ignore my last post. You compare what we do to theatrics and compare them like they are the same thing. As for strength breaks. How many times do I have to say that it isn't pure strength? I will prove this wrong right now. A full grown man who is very strong tried to break something but coudn't and a younger 14 year old broke it. There, proof. Now dismiss the idea that it is just a feat of strength. Strength has little to do with it. You also ignored when I said that TKD and karate guys CAN do selective breaking and they DON'T talk about chi. Think about that. And why do you think something that doesn't require chi is not skillful.

I'm sorry but you have not successfully given any evidence to back up anything you have said about the skillessness of board breaking.

[jon]

Respectfully my example of your sifu was out of place, I know he is very well respected and I shouldnt have been silly enough to draw attension to it to my own detriment.
However the point remains the same its what you put your effort into. As you say you spend your energy in a different area.
So do I now but i still have a healthy respect for the years i spent learning TKD.
Some say its using strength, personaly i kinda think thats the wrong word for it. I believe good TKD teaches the user how to unite there body with there weapon. Hence they hit with there full body weight PLUS what ever else they happen to throw in like spinning and jumping to gain momentum.
I would also say i think the trophy reference is a bit cliche. I use this often in joking but the true reality of Traditional Tae Kwon Do is that they train very hard and couldnt give a rats about getting 'awards'. This the result of modernisation of a traditional art. Just like our Kung Fu systems there are both good and bad schools around and it would be just as silly to think all TKD was strength and tournament based as it would be to assume all kung fu is folk dance. Assume makes an a$$ out of U and ME remember... lol im sorry i had to:p

Once again im sorry about the reference to your sifu it was out of place.
Remeber though that the aforementioned kick Axe Kick is very difficault and even harder to break with. Let alone five blocks of stacked concreate.
Respects as always
Jon

[Mr Nunchaku]

Actually, Jon, that picture was not the kick I was talking about. Besides the side kick through 8 boards and the axe kick through 5 concrete blocks the only other one I believe I mentioned was the jump, spin round kick breaking a board held by one person above there head. That is not the kick in the picture. But it doesn't matter. I won't even doubt that ED's sifu can do that kick. I can't even begin to imagin how awesome he is. But the point is that it does take skill.

[jon]

My appology was not meant to detract from my point so much as to point out i was doing the same thing i was complaining about.
Assuming someone lacked skill in a certain area without really knowing the full of the situation.
Earth Dragons sifu is very well respected and northen mantis is actualy quite well known for its kicking techniques as well as many other things.
Still i see your point that an Axe kick is a totaly differnt kick using a different technique and power structure entirely. I think ED was just pointing out that his sifu was an excerlent kicker as well as his many other talents.
Still i hold by my statements that TKD is an excerlent martial art and traditional TKD is very underated. Which is sad becouse there is much to be learned from it.
TKD taught me distance, timing and dynamics and most importantly respect and morals at a junior level and i refuse to believe this was somehow 'wrong' training.
I also hold by my statements that true wood breaking is a great test of skill. Though as E.D has pointed out and so has Mr Nunchaku, its not the be all and end of breaking development.

[Mr Nunchaku]

Yeah, I just want to say again that that picture is very cool. When I said "nice kick" that was an insulting understatement. What I should have said I will say now. That is about as close to perfect technique as one can get.

Oh yeah, and again I'm not debating that board breaking is a high level of breaking (as you have said). All I am saying is that it does take skill.

[EARTH DRAGON]

Jon,& Mr........ I totally respect your opinon and I do not mean to say anything bad about TKD though I has gotten a bad wrap in our town as well as in the US for the shinny flashy tourney stuff. And it is sad that people assume that all TKD is like that which of coarse is not true, I sparred with a korean black belt years ago that kicked me in the head so fast I was dizzy and then when I was waighting for the kick he did it again, he was very fast. But the truth is I base my opinon on what I have seen with my own eyes and I have never seen a (in my opinon ) a skillful break with wood for to me it is not a true test, however I am still not saying that it does not take skill for it does to a point, but again this is my opinon, and in that opinon I just find that if you want to test your skill you must use something that shows your years of practice. wood is not one of these. As MR. NUN said MR oaks eventually started to break concrete I agreed that He was showing skill. So I apologize if I offened anyone by me rather strong opinon but thsats how I feel, again I AM going on what I have witnessed in my life. I have judged many tournnements and seen 12 year old blackblets do great forms but they have never thrown a real fist in a fight!!!! does that make them a blackbelt? becuse their form is good? it is up to the person some say yes others say no. I say a guy in a pink gi win 3 years in a row in point sparring in the BB divison. But he told me he never has been in a fight......and that he is afriad of being hit.......

[Mr Nunchaku]

Well said. Sorry if I came on too strong. But I just wanted to make sure that you knew we aren't all the flashy spacer using, board baking, dance-a-form-to-rock music that you see in"tournaments". I only wish I could debate with more sensible people like you instead of people around here who won't admit that TKD when taught correctly is a good art.

[EARTH DRAGON]

No problem, I kind feel bad for the real TKD guys out there just becuse you guys have such a bad rap. but actually ther is a TKD school acrosss from my school that is huge and beautiful with a 4,000 floor. I have a small humble school in which I teach pure and authentic kung fu, I have spoken with the owner and he has admitted to knowing nothing compared to me but his monthy income is 11,000 a month so he is happy, I said i didnt make 1/2 that all year. he said its all about the marketing game and how to play it, but I choose to teach my way and not rip off people with electrical tape on their belts for a stripe and a $50 test fee and lifetime and BB memberships... I would feel to bad to lure parents in like that but thats what has made the TKD world look so ****t*.... take care my freeind E.D

[Mr Nunchaku]

If he has a huge school because he has a lot of students that is one thing, but to take advantage of the martial arts by sucking in profits, that's what I really don't like.

But I don't see what's wrong with eletrical tape on belts. It is part of our ranking system. You get a stripe on your belt as you progress. It's just a symbolic thing and they don't make money off of it. Actually they lose money because they got to buy the tape. Right now I have a red slash on my belt. That means that I have a loooooong way to go before I get another. So there is nothing wrong with it really.

[EARTH DRAGON]

Here is whats wrong with it,
1. you join a school buy a gi from them at a outragous price and they charge you for your first test to get your white belt that actually comes with the uniform.

2. Then they teach you half of what you are supposed to know ( to keep you enrolled longer) and then chrage you for testing and rank you buy buying a piece of tape and sticking it to your belt. This is a money making shameful false sense of earning something, and it is a terrible way to incorporate a learning advancement.
Either they are too cheap to buy a different colored belt or they are trying to string you along by saying great job heres your colored tape now your 1 step closer to a BB.

That is way TKD has such a terrible reputation for money making Mcdojo's this is not the tradtional wayt at ALLLLLLLLL but more so a scam..... please tell me you dont see the wool being pulled over your eyes... how many stripes does it take to get your BB???????? of should I say how much $$$$$$$$

next your going to tell me you can sign up in their black belt or insturctor program.. please stop your killing me now

[Mr Nunchaku]

Woah now, ED. You can just take your little assumptions about my school right back from wherever you got them from.

What you just described is not my school at all. The stripes on our belts are free. We don't do anything like what you described. I even explained that but you just didn't listen, just like you barely listened to anything I said in this thread. Where I take TKD is not that expensive at all. So you take that wool right off your eyes and stop making assumptions.

[Mr Nunchaku]

You know? When you started saying all that I was giving you the benefit of a doubt and I assumed you did not mean my school but rather all the other McDojos that are out there. But as soon as you said,

"please tell me you dont see the wool being pulled over your eyes... how many stripes does it take to get your BB???????? of should I say how much $$$$$$$$

next your going to tell me you can sign up in their black belt or insturctor program.. please stop your killing me now"

As soon as you said that I realized that you were in fact talking directly to me about my school. NO ONE disrespects my school unless they have an intelligent opinion about something we do wrong. You did not give that. You assume you know a single **** thing about my school when you don't know anything. All I said was we use stripes. I even said that they are free. And you dare to tell me to take the wool off my eyes and all that. For the first time you better listen to what I am about to say.

I demand an apology.

I am so serious. I thought we were friends and hopefully we still can be, but that last post of yours was nonsense.