Violent Behaviour........

[red5angel]

I had a conversation with a friend of mine yesterday and I would like to get your oprinions....I know this can be a weird subject, but lets face it, alot of you are wierd......

I am not a violent person by any means, I have never started a fight, only been in one since high school and I defended myself well without having to hurt the other guy. However, I did Serve in the USMC, and while I was there, I knew that if it came down to it I could kill my opponent if I had to. Now, I was on FAST, so most of the guys I would have to kill would have been bad people, from my point of view, terrorist, etc.....people who have violated the rights of others. Anyway, with all that has gone on in the world lately, the issue of violemce, whether through retaliation, religious fervor, or what have you, has cropped up a lot. Anyway, I have always looked at myself as a peaceful person, except that violence is in no way out of the question when it has to be done. Does this make me a bad person?
The way I look at it is this - there are extreme people out there, and they sometimes do extreme things, when they do, you sometimes need someone willing to also go to extremes to defend themselves, or thier loved ones, or even sometimes just the things they believe in.
I have been studying buddhism and obviouly have been questioning my attitudes towards these things and would like to hear other opinions on the subject.

[Ryu]

I think your opinion is very realistic, noble, and doesn't contradict with peace at all. "Good guys" need people like you to protect.
Questioning yourself is great, and keeps you healthy when it comes to your motivations, etc. But I wouldn't change your opinion. I think it's the right one.

Ryu

[scotty1]

I am a very laid back person, and I would rather not get into a fight EVER if I can avoid it, BUT I believe that in a situation where your /family member/ loved ones life/health is threatened you are justified in using extreme violence to nullify the threat.

Fair enough I think...

[red5angel]

Thanks for your opinions so far guys, to clarify something as well, I do not think there is necessarily a right or a wrong way to look at this. I dont believe that someone has to fight, and I dont believe they are worng for fighting.
I have always told my wife that if it ever came down to me or someone else, or her and someone else, or anyone else I care about (including your average innocent bystander) and someone else it was not going to be the aggressor that comes out if I have anything to do with it.

[wangsizhong]

in certain situations, you would be a WORSE person if you weren't violent. some of those situations have been mentioned (family member, friend, etc. in danger). some times these situations are a little easier to distinguish than others, particularly if you are a police officer, soldier, etc. protecting the citizenry. being a Christian, it is harder for me to come up with a theoretical answer for if i was personally attacked and the i was the only conceivable victim (turn the other cheek and all that).

Wang Si Zhong

[Kristoffer]

The Dalai Lama will say that u can never use violence. ( I think) Does this make him a 'bad' person? I think not. But I agree with red, u should act if u can save others etc etc..

Never hesitate to do the right thing!

[Cody]

You're not a bad person. Listen to yourself.
What is happening is complicated. These horrible world events have made us all realize that serious violence, in an organized sense, has made it thru the door, even knocked down a couple of buildings and those within. While defending here has mostly translated to individual thugs, small gangs, the current situation makes the common citizen think in terms of more widespread defense, with the innocent sometimes being in the wrong place at the wrong time, with it being difficult to tell the innocent from the perps.
It gets complicated as to why certain people will support a violent cause and whether all kinds of supporters should be seen as identical to the ones who commit the acts. How to separate the person from the belief that the violence they are supporting or doing is right. There is no time to consider this, and defense is primary aim for now. The violence as such (9/11) smells of something very bad, but the figuring of where that is and isn't is not as easy as one might suppose, especially when in a retaliatory state of mind. It's a mess.
I like your independent ways, and that you are looking at what other people believe. IMO a belief is just that, and if one resonates with it and understands what is being said and examines the reasoning as a whole, fine. Self development can be done with or without such allegiance. It's up to each person. When that mental autonomy ceases to be the case, I would question it. You understand?

take care,
Cody

[rubthebuddha]

i agree with each person's assessment thus far, and i'll add one more thing:

think of it in a term of scales -- what would be better, someone being victimized during a crime, or somone helping the victim even at the cost of harm to the criminal? the vast majority of cultures in this world believe strongly in the principle of "helping the innocent." they also believe in bringing those who do wrong to justice (how you define justice is another issue). with the latter, it's expected that a certain amount of rights that the criminal has will be tread upon in order to protect those who are innocent, as well as punishing them for wrongdoing. keep these basic principles in mind, then apply them:

you see a little granny get her purse snatched on the street. it's not uncommon to want to help her get her purse back. but if you have to chase down the thief and pulp up his noggin with a lead pipe to get it, is it justifiable? is the amount of good your doing in returning the purse to granny equal or greater than the amount of harm done to the guy whose mental goodies are spilling out on the street?

compare that to you walking by an alley and seeing a perv trying to sexually assault a 10-year-old girl. would it you be justified in rearranging his grill with your elbow? would the amount of good done by getting the child away from the situation be equal or greater than the harm done to a person's dental work?

although the answers seem obvious, they might not be. it's not my place or anyone else's to tell you what's right (again, justice is a different topic). my sisok often tells us "your circumstances dictate your response." you seem like a swell enough chap to know the basics of right and wrong. so stick with what you know and hope, along with the rest of us, that there are more people out there like you that actually give a darn.

[red5angel]

nicely said rubbthebuddha, it is always circumstantial. When I joined the Marines, I wasnt sure I could kill someone just because my country and his country might disagree on some things. On an anti-terrorist team, atleast the people I may have gone up against would have been violating someones human rights and threatening life in ways I do not consider acceptable.
In every situation you have to consider the consequences and the necessary actions. For instance the guy who chased those car burglers in england, it really wasnt necessary, they got away, no real damage done.
Cody, if I understand you correclty, you are talking about free thinking, thinking for yourself?

[TjD]

the way i see it is; while protecting your loved ones is a good action

harming the aggressor is a bad action

so even though the means are good - your still performing a bad action, and must accept the consequences

however, your also performing a good action, and must accept the concequences of that

realize the fact that you have to accept the consequences of the bad action, and do it to protect your loved ones, adds another layer of good to this

but thats probably as good as it will get; in the end you always have to accept the consequences of the harm you cause to others

however, letting the aggressor harm your family is also a bad action :)

its a lose lose situation; so in the end you have to pick the one that causes the least amount of suffering

peace
travis

[MightyB]

I'm still reading that Ratti and Westbrook book "Secrets of the Samurai" and they had a passage that related to what you're talking about. I don't have the book in front of me so I'll have to paraphrase. Basically they were quoting old manuals and masters that looked at non-violence as an excuse for people to ignore the injustices of the world. They had buddhist, daoist, and confucian quotes to back up the statement that "peace" sometimes is a disguise to allow you to ignore injustice and brutallity.

Nonviolence and passivity allow things like the WTC attack to happen. Look at WWI and WWII for more examples of the results of inaction and compliance. Peace is only ideal in an ideal world.

[JWTAYLOR]

Bushido tenents include the phrase "The sword that strikes down evil is the life giving sword."

Nothing too stunning until you think about what a sword is for: taking life. It's a weapon. So how can it "give life". Only by destroying evil.

We must be the same way. Weapons, against evil.

IGeeze, sound like Watchman.

JWT

[wangsizhong]

i think there must be different concepts of violence at work here
without trying to speak for everyone, i'm pretty sure everyone agrees that instigating violence is bad and should be avoided (don't you get extra penalty minutes for instigating in hockey Kung Fu Guy!?)
on the other hand, many people on the forum seem to be challenging ralek to fights, whether he backs down or not.

anyway, its the response to the violence that we're talking about.

plus just about everyone here has been training in a martial (war) art at one point or another (even if it is from gracie cd roms). so unless you're studying purely for health benefits and avoid sparring like the plague (or putting it off a week at a time depending on what the powers that control you have to say about it), everyone here is participating, or has participated, or is preparing to possibly participate in some sort of violence.

the point is, even if the dalai lama is against all forms of violence, it seems obvious that no one here is a total pacifist. i don't think any of us would want our justice system based on the honour system, unless the police force was run by Chief Wiggum.

in a practical situation, ideals don't always have the final say. it was the buddhists who came up with kung fu in the first place right? so even some buddhists will agree that sometimes violence is warranted. heck, just about every kung fu movie in existence is based on a violent revenge plot (relax, its a hyperbole).

so the question should probably what is your limit to violence?
if you have been in a violent situation, what drove you to the violence you contributed? would you have done anything differently?
i think its more practical to ask what HAVE you done than what WOULD you do.

but then, i might be wrong...

Wang Si Zhong

[rubthebuddha]

one more thing to consider -- if you do nothing to help someone, you also are stuck with the wonderful feeling of knowing that they're continued harm was an indirect result of you having qualms with violence.

so what is worse: knowing that someone's a little bit uglier or may not dance for six months because of your mad skills, or knowing that the rape you read about in the paper on sunday morning could be listed as a thwarted rape had you not struggled with the moral dilemma and walked away from it on saturday night.

i know. i'm losing objectivity. so i'll admit it -- the idea of NEVER causing harm doesn't sit well with me, because i feel that ignoring someone doing great harm in order to keep your own slate clean is far worse than uglifying someone to protect someone who can't protect themself. it's selfish, because you're putting someone else's well-being above your own conscience.

and yes, i know that i'm leaving some gaping holes in this argument, but there it sits anyway.

[MightyB]

No holes, just the truth.

[Cody]

Yes! That is the crux of it. Finding out who you are and not conforming to a belief idealization, like one of Cinderella's sisters trying to jam her foot into the royal shoe. If the shoe fits, wear it. If not, get over the guilt and on with the journey. But, even if the shoe feels comfy, never give up as much of an independent mindset that is one's self as you can. Weigh your decisions in terms of your belief system, and in terms of how you really feel, allowing yourself to feel. If there is a discrepancy, don't gloss over, or assume you are unworthy. Re-invent the wheel if that is what you need to do. Respect people's hearts.

The talk of consequences is too neat. I seem to be running into the Newton-Determinism-Karma triangle wherever I go lately. In my view, admittedly limited, the matter (whether inanimate objects bouncing off each other, or human beings interacting physically or emotionally, or beings interacting in the realm of the invisible sometimes made visible) is much more complex than what goes around comes around. For one thing, the people interaction is not equivalent to inanimate objects, except on a very elementary level. I do not believe in Determinism; I need to leave room for randomness, chaos. Hence, I do not believe that every human action has a predictable reaction along the lines given. If one harms to defend, I don't think that yields eventual harm to the defender. If one harms no one, I don't think that protects from harm. If one does nothing, particularly when the means are immediately at hand, to save another out of not wanting to do harm, I do not see merit to this. I see fear or enslavement. My view.

If I am attacked, or a friend, or a stranger, and I take it upon myself to attack likewise, I would have already thought of the consequences to my spiritual heart. For instance, if I am merely being bullied, I won't harm. This is something I've experienced. So, I know what I'll do. I have distilled this, so far, to a single element. If at any time I take pleasure in the suffering of another human being, no matter what the person has done, I will have failed. There is a solemn sadness in the heart when serious defensive measures are required. That is how I feel.

I think it is possible that the success of MA in ancient religious communities was not due to the moral rightness of the teachings, but to the focus and determination and perseverance that was part of their practice of their beliefs. In effect, the spiritual foundation for martial arts prowess was in place and, physical training made it material to the degree of the individual's potential.
To be honest, I don't know about the evolution of energy circulation as part of religious practice, before MA training was introduced. I would think that the notions of the mind not stopping and being taken by this or that would precede it in time, but I don't know. It is simpler, different. Yet, related to the use of refined energy.

Cody

[red5angel]

Good reply Cody, I think you and I view this the same way. I see morality as a thing necessary for civilization, and not a universal truth. Morals are subjective, and it is our culture that mainly decides what is right and wrong. To work against those sometimes causes us problems but I do believe that society is not always right in what it deems right or wrong.
I am not saying there is no reasoin we should not go out and do anything we want to, a good golden rule is do unto others.... I believe it is basically where morality got started. No one wants to be killed really, no one wants to be cheated on or robbed or what ever happens to be wrong in your society, so they perpetuate themselves through self preservation. I believe in a general respect for all human life, but even nature has its cruel side, when the lion runs down the gazelle, we do not call it murder.

[red5angel]

good reply Rub, a few months ago I was confronted with a situation. There was a guy asleep in a nearby park. I was walking to work, it was early in the morning, and as I walked past these three younger gentleman, I heard them talking about checking him out. I wasnt sure what this meant but as I walked by, one o fthem handed the other a backpack and then turned around, walking behind me, both of us approaching this sleeping man. I got the sinking feeling that this wasnt a good thing. I didnt want to turn to confront him directly, I didnt think it was necessary, and both guys were larger than I. I sat down on the bench and woke the guy up. The kid approaching stopped in his tracks, eyed me and cursed. This situation could have gone several ways, and I put myself in a situation that could have gone bad for me, but I was willing to take that chance so this guy didnt get hurt, in essence, I chose to, he did not.

[Ryu]

From all that I've read about the Dalai Lama, I don't think he'd say to stand idly by while innocents suffer. That is much worse karma than taking on the violent act in order to protect them.

Ryu

[DelicateSound]

There are so many good points here, I don't want to repeat anyone, but the way I see it is that I will use force:

*When every other alternative has been tried
*When it is absolutely necessary
*Only against a person who is a threat [to myself or others]

e.g: If a granny got her handbag snatched, I would chase the guy and take him down, but retrieving the bag would be my mission, not caving in his skull.

Necessary force and all that......

Just my POV :)

[MightyB]

I think this is a good thread for everyone to think about. I keep thinking about the situation in Boston right now where there's a trial going on about the hockey dad killing the other hockey dad in a fight. It's a lose lose situation, and I bet that the defendent wishes that someone would have stepped in and stopped him before he killed the guy. There were several witnesses and they all have excuses as to why they didn't try to stop the fight, I wonder if those excuses help them sleep at night. The women say that they were too old or too helpless to help, wasn't there a fire extinguisher around. CO2 is very cold and one quick blast would take the fight out of anybody. And, where were the other fathers when this was going on? Two families will go fatherless now because no one had the guts to step in and intervene.

[red5angel]

Good point Mighty B, I see it all the time. I work at our local Rennaissance festival doing security and medical response, and almost everytime we have had to break up a fight, we have to break through a ring of people just sort of standing around. No one ever steps in. Its odd considering when we have someone go down from heat exhaustion we have to beat all of the 'nurses' and cpr professionals with a stick.........

[Ray Pina]

I try not to judge a situation, just let it happen.

I had good parents, when to good schools, and had good sensei and sifu's. I leasrned early that MA is for defense only.

I got into Bhuddism, stopped eating meat, the whole nine.

I would say I am a Taoist if I had to pick such a label.

I say, be yourself. Be kind. If something happens, deal with it naturally. Try not to let hate enter your mind at that time, realise its all relative (why the attack, drugs, money, poverty, insanity, jekousy).

You'll make the right choice.

As for killing in the line of duty: for whom do you toil? Yourself or your government? When sept 11 whent down I took a lof of head because I said I would not enlist. But for whom do you toil? I toil to be a good person, to be the best I can be. I do not involve myself in politics or international concerns. I train, work, have fun with my girl and sleep well. If someone comes through my door with bad intentions, or jumps me on the street, I'll deal with it, not the government. Then I'll go on about my business.

Sounds like your head and heart are in the right place, now shut the dialogue off between the two.

[MightyB]

Sounds like you're perfectly content with letting others toil for your safety and freedom.

I guess it depends on where you're willing to draw the line and how much civic responsiblity you have. Most people are way too eager to blame the government for all of their problems and believe it to be the biggest contributer to social ills. It's also these same people that say they won't participate in the system out of protest, yet they take the most advantage out of the benefits that it gives. The system works best when people are involved and activily contribute to it's growth and success, but that's way off topic anyway...

[Ray Pina]

I don't blame anyone but myself for my problems. I look only to myself for the solutions.

As for this whole argument. If I just happened to be born in the Middle East, should I hate the USA? Or that I am born here, hate Muslims? No, I am me, a free thinking human being. I disociate myself from politics. I will never be a soldier. I follow no one but myself.

I train to be general like, not foot soldier-esque. I live in NYC and see very clearly what happened, I train a few blocks away from "ground zero." But there are ground zero's in Kuwait, Iran, Vietnam, cambodia, Nicaragua, all over. I had nothing to do with those, and nothing to do with Sept. 11.

How many sons and fathers were killed in WWII? Could we have better relations with Japan now? If you want to go and get killed fighting for the USA, awesome for you! Respect by opinion to not get involved in such matters. I want to sleep, eat, drink and train.

If it becomes too much of a hassle to do it here, I'll do it eslewhere. I gain nothing from controling the oil in the Middle East, or stopping a gov. that wants to devide its earnings. All I want is peace, and it seems the governments of the world keep getting in the way. I think most people agree, but because of machismo or brain washing, feel a need to die for the wealthy.

[Paul]

you definately wouldn't make it as a soldier your ego would get in the way.

[red5angel]

Be careful where you go with that Evolution, I was fighting for our country as a whole, I dont like politics or politicians, but love the freedom we have here, the freedom to think do and believe in what you want to believe in. I went to Kuwait during the gulf storm but was it a worthy cause? I cant answert that for what really is? All I know is that in the evening as the sun was setting in the west, some buddies and I were outside our bivouak saying goodnight to america.
For what it is worth, I dont disagree with your want to not join the military, its not for everyone, it was mostly not for me. Its what makes our nation great, but it is also what started this thread, sort of. I chose to go because I dont mind being put in a situation where I may have to kill what I percieve as a bad guy.
Anyway, I would rather not turn this thread into a political discussion, it is going good.....

[MightyB]

I can agree with most of what you're saying, and I would have to agree with you that most if not all wars are initiated for some kind of power gain by those in charge. But, sometimes it does become necessary to participate in violent conflicts to preserve your way of life from an aggressor. Situations like WWII being one of those. There's no way that the US could have peacefully coexisted with Nazi Germany. We had to do something and it was much better to do it in their land rather than ours. Same thing with Japan. They felt compelled to attack us, but they did attack us and we were technically a noncombatant at the time. We didn't attack them, they attacked us and brought upon themselves the full retribution of the sleeping eagle. Same things happening now in the MidEast. For some reason, other countries feel that they can take us, they all meet the same fate in the end. Their countries and their way of life are annhiliated. Going way off topic there...

I don't want to get into a political discussion. Be who you are and try to do the right thing. Peace is ideal, but it's not the right thing all of the time. Remember, most police and soldiers are doing what they believe in because they believe in the ideals of democracy. It isn't for big gov't or big oil. They do what they do to try to make this world a safer place for their families, friends, and even you.

[shaolinboxer]

"I gain nothing from controling the oil in the Middle East"

Except every modern convinience that is dependent on oil and petroleum products, at an affordable price.

[Ray Pina]

"but love the freedom we have here, the freedom to think do and believe in what you want to believe in."

I would argue also that the majority of soldiers out there are young men, very young, who could not go to college either because of academic or financial reasons. These same minds are quite easily led to believe that whoe ver the government is against at the time is "the bad guy." We had zero relations with Pakistan a year ago after their nuclear test. Now they are our allies. We are now friendly with Vietnam as well.

I would argue that I wouldn't make a good soldier, not because of my ego, but because of my desire to think for myself. I don't look at people as "the bad guy", just as people who unfortunately have an agenda that does not coincide with the US and will become the "bad guy." Hitler was a different case. One could argue that the US was well aware of Pearl Harbor, in fact provoked it. No one would argue we are the only nation to drop an atomic bomb on a nation -- two cities to boot.

I love the USA, didn't want it to turn to this. Just support my original point. I am me. The gov. and the USA is outside of that. IF you start thinking of going along with the mass thoughs associated with nations be careful. Do you support inprisoning people for growing a plant? How about state sponsored murder (that is what killing an unarmed man premedatativekly is)? Who we kill and why? I'd rather be trully free. Sorry if you can't understand that. I for one will sleep good, knowing I haven't killed 50 men because I'm on the front lines just doing my job.

[Ray Pina]

Martial brothers, let's agree to disagree and follow our own hearts.

[red5angel]

I agree with you in so much as you have your freedom to do what you want. That is the American Way.
For the record, most soldiers I knew, and I knew a lot, were in it because it was the choice they made. I fought to preserve our way of life, not defined by our laws, but by the way we live.

[TjD]

i have a feeling that if all men were born with the same sized *****, there would be no wars


peace
travis

[TjD]

crap they edited out ***** :)

to reiterate

i have a feeling if all men were born with the same sized wang then there would be no wars

peace
travis

[Ryu]

Hmm. Hmmmmm.

Hmm. ;)

While I agree that war itself is ALWAYS a tragic thing (no matter how necessary), life, like you said needs to be addressed for what it is. The ups and downs, the ideals and angers, etc. Buddhism should give you the mindfulness to be able to see in all directions, and act accordingly to what is going on around you.
Now this doesn't always mean to constantly "strive for middle way" since the "middle way" itself can become an extreme. Sometimes in life we are forced to take action. For whatever reason. With a mindful spirit and strong faith, we can take those actions with the proper mindset, and reasoning within ourselves. Not necessarily just to protect ourselves, but for that which is much more valuable (at least to me), the protection of other people. Now. People are people, therefore "American" people are not the only ones deserving of protection from such a mindful heart. Mindfulness does not pick and choose like that. Evil and innocent appear in all cultures. Culture itself does not make something "right" for a group of people. A good example would be an experience I had with a Mongolian girlfriend of mine some time ago. She had been going through some tough times, and was crying to me. However, she said that to her culture "crying" was seen as weak. So the more she cried, the more weak and worthless she felt about herself, which made her cry more, which lead to EVEN more worthless feelings...you get the picture.
It wasn't until I told her that I thought her crying was in actuallity a strength (in that she wasn't afraid to show me her emotions) that she began to feel better about it, better about herself, and obviously was able to stop crying. My point was, that my advice was not her "culture" but was better for her than what her "culture" had instilled. At least in that particular instance. And that is what life is made up of. Particular instances.
I'm getting off track, and I realize that. :)
My point here is that generalizations about what people think and feel is bad for mindfulness. You have to look at them individually. Which is difficult.
Everything is NOT relative. For if it was, how could someone make the "right choice" as you put it? :)
Buddhism doesn't necessarily teach that. Well not the ones I'm involved with anyway.
Thinking for yourself means more than just "riding the waves" You've got to do some swimming yourself too.

Mindset is important. War may very well be necessary. Violence may very well be necessary...but what is NOT necessary is the glorification of it. When we joke about "killing the Taliban" or make internet games of beheading Osama...that to me is not the proper mindset. Killing him might very well be necessary...but if we do, let's do so with the mindset that it is tragic that we must do so. That way, we don't become gleeful in killing (which is what he is doing)
During any situation, one must see all that is happening, and find the appropriate actions AND the appropriate mindset. It is not simply compromising or taking an extreme. It opens up a whole new option. THAT is middle way.

Anyway glad to post. :)

Ryu

[TjD]

but they dont edit out crap... ahh well its a strange world :)


im partially with evolutionfist on this one

theres no way i will go out and kill for my country; but i have no problems in lining up to do my part peacefully, and supporting those who do

call me a coward, but i strive to keep evil out of my life

peace
travis

[Ryu]

Not cowardly.

Ryu

[red5angel]

Good post Ryu!!!! Excellent post, very lucid and well thought out.
A few guys in my unit and I used to sit around and talk about the things we may be called to do. When new guys came through, they were always fresh out of training and ready to kill. But my CO put it to me this way, he said that fast did it differently, we got up close and personal (being an urban combat specialist will do that to you), the guys we go after we HAVE to look in the eye, because we HAVE to get that close. Before you go in with your team you HAVE to be sure you are ready to do the right thing. The right thing wasnt about your country, or your beliefs or whatever, it was about not letting down your team mates, because then thier lives become endangered.
That is the reason I say it is subjective...sometimes it is the situation. I always said that hopefully I dont get called to stop someone who has chosen the wrong path, but if someone did, I would be at the gate waiting!

TjD - "call me a coward, but i strive to keep evil out of my life"

I am not sure what you are trying to say here but I dont consider what I did evil, as a matter of fact, I say that evil, may be just a matter of perception? Maybe we each have our own demons......

[Ryu]

Maybe we each have our own demons......


That is a very real statement with much "fright" behind it actually...but that's for another post. :D

Thanks, Red5, glad you enjoyed my post.
I've got to train a bit, so I'll leave with this. While I don't think Evil is always subjective, it does deceptively become subjective quite a bit. After all, they say the "devil" is the ultimate deciever, right?

Well talk to everyone later. :)
By the way, Red5, I have really enjoyed yours posts, and this thread in general.

Ryu

[Ray Pina]

Ryu, I agree with you 100%.

I do not go so much the middle way, but my Way, which could be viewed as middle. As for say, Bin Laden, yes, it seems its time he should go. Yet, he does speak for some people, some people who have negative feelings say about a country like ours, who goes into other lands, supposedly tp help (media sound bite) but realisticly to protect our intrest. When he was fighting Russia, he was a freedom fighter, now he fights us, he's a terrorist. He took it too far, struck our home ground ... again. I live in NY and remember the first WTC attack. Then I said, we should be mindful. Guess it wasn't big enough.

I agree, wars will happen. It is part of our Way as man unfortunately. I doubt I will ever take part in one unless people start landing out front on the beach. I don't know what to say, other than I am training very seriously (this is a martial board) but do not want to kill anyone. Oil, land disputes, even freedom, which is very relative (you can drink today, you can't drink tommorrow (prohibitian), but then you can drink next week -- doesn't sound like freedom to me if it can be given and taken) -- I don't know. I know who I am and live by my own principles. Some things I do would be considered criminal by this society some things would be considred great charity. I'd do them either way because they stem from inside, the outcome will be the outcome.

I know this will aggrovate some, but I'm happy this way. For those who go and fight for our freedoms, I apreciate it. But to always have it thrown back in my face, seems like someone always reminding me of a Christmas gift. Give it because it comes from within, for its sake. Not to hand over people's heads -- otherwise much of the honor is lost. I don't think much of our country would be different if we never set foot in Vietnam or even Iran for that matter. In fact, we didn't do it right in either of those cases. We outright lost the objective of Vietnam, push back the communists, and eveb worse, never realy had a strong one in Iran other than to be big brother to Kuwait. Who defeats their enemey and leaves him in power to stir ... I think we are now experinecing what happens when one does that. Where did those weapons to the PLO come from, Anthrax?

I don't know, I'm sick, been sick for days and rambling now. All I can say with certainty is that I will never be in fatigues. I'd be shot as a desserter before that, because I'm not one to run out of a fox hole with 10 guys to capture a hill. Coward? I just think smart. If it got that bad I'd grab some weapons and loved ones and take off to the mountains -- alone. If it got that bad I'd want no part of this society, I barely do now.

[red5angel]

Thanks Ryu, I really appreciate it!!! And evil being subjective may be an entirely different subject all together! :)

EvolutionFist, please understand I am not saying that you are being cowardly, or making the worng choice by not wanting to join the armed forces, I think it would be naive of anyone to think everyone should. I did, so others dont have to! I also undertsand how you feel about it getting thrown back in your face, having been in the military especially the Marines, I find I get a negative reaction almost as much as a positive one.

[Ryu]

Evolution, I wish I could stay longer to post more, but
I can't :D That was a good post though, I agree with you a lot about being your own person. However, remember that just because someone does something because it is "right for him" doesn't mean it will be in good standing with society or the "dharma" itself. Karma's a law :D

Anyway that's vague, sorry, but I'll try to post more later! :D

Take care,
Ryu

[Nexus]

The Tao Te Ching has a phrase along the lines of 'Heaven blesses those with compassion that it would not see destroyed'.

In a situation where we must act, we do what we need to do because we are responding to the way we feel. Many of us are compassionate towards our family members and would use violence to protect them. This is because you are capable of embracing all attitudes and all possible states of mind if it is needed to deal with the situation.

[Ray Pina]

If I was in an urban battle field with fellow troops, I would shoot anything that moved that was not clearly defined as Friendly.

It is because of that, knowing that it would come down to that, that I would not join in the first place. It should not be a surprise that it should come to that, thus not making is subjective. If one joins the military, what other predicament could be expected. That is why I say I stay clear of the whole mess.

But, I admire your determination and loyalty. Get me in the ring, and I'm not so ... um, nice.;) Then again, I really am. Knock um down then help um up, that's my motto. Sometimes because of time restraints here at work, or, those **** wing chun guys get me so angry (homer simpson voice) I get a little to blunt with my opinion, but always mean well.

Best to all of you. Glad to hear you're bouncing to train. I'm bummed I miss class last night because of the flu ... ****.

[red5angel]

Hey evolution fist, alot of what you say makes a lot of sense and dont think that just because we disagree on some points that I dont like you! :D
An stop pickin on us Wing chun guys!!!! :mad:

[rubthebuddha]

not all us wing chun people are evil, and not all evil people do wing chun. it just seems that way.

as far as armed services go, i'm glad we have people like red5 who are willing and eager to serve in order to protect things dear to us. i'm also glad we have people like evolution who show us that thinking for ourselves can go the other way, too. in addition, i'm glad that both of you, and everyone else, is smart enough to articulate their thoughts, stubborn enough to stick by them and open-minded enough to respect the opinions of others.

that said, who here makes a dashing margarita? i'm hankering for a drink with you guys.

[red5angel]

Right On Rub!!!! I would buy a round for everyone! If you were here in frigid minnesota! I will be sure to put one away for you boys this weekend though!

[Budokan]

Given the choice I would always try and run away from a fight. Given a choice.

But if anyone were to ever threaten my two little boys with bodily harm I would turn into a crazed killing machine. That's where I draw the line.

[rubthebuddha]

budokan, if anyone threatened your tykes, we'd all go a-busting chops.

[red5angel]

Probably the best way to handle it Budokan, unfortunately, I get too stubborn sometimes for my own good, if I fill threatened, much like the blowfish, I puff up (minus all the neat spines and poison.) and try to stand my ground. This is definitely not the best reaction for sure!