Opinions on this article

[scotty1]

Check this out: http://www.straightblastgym.com/questions.html#questions

Tell me what you think. I'm not interested in the JKD parts really, pretty much just the first page. Anyway, opinions please...

The reason for that I will explain later...

Thanks in advance.:)

[red5angel]

Well, the guy sounds like he believes what he is saying, and I am sure a lot of MMA guys and so called Realistic fighting guys will probably agree with him, but it seems like he has pretty much missed the point to pattern training, etc... You dont train in set forms or motions so that they can be directly applied to combat, you train in those to train muscle memory, reflex actions, and your ability to use them, when applicable without thinking. This is the main sticking point fo rpeople who get stuck in BLs' 'classical mess' idea. That these strict training methods dont work, and your right, if you dont take it any ****her, but any respectable MA person will realise that these are just the blue prints. If for instance, a WC guy hops out onto the street, and expects to apply Chi Sao directly to a street encounter, hes dead man walking as far as I am concerned, but if he takes the sensitivty he has train, the ideas he has taken from chi sao practice, then he can use those to defend himself in combat effectively.
i am trying not to be disrespectful to this gentleman, there are a lot of people out there who feel the same way he does, but most of them just havent taken the time to understand what they are learning, instead they often get impatient and decide to move on, or listen to the popular hype.
Basically, it sounds to me like he is a salesman, I couldnt get the picture of that guy with the pony tail who yells on stage and gets all pumped up about his products. eh believes in them but that doesnt mean that they work, and it doesnt mean that they work for everyone.

[Ralek]

This is acutally Jigoro Kano's philosophy when he founded Judo. In a lot of the traditional jiujitsu schools you would do "dead" patterns such as your opponent would grab you, then you simulate an eye gouge, do a throw, joint lock. It wasn't free sparring so it was dead, and you couldn't actually practice the "eye gouges" and deadly moves for real.

So Kano really didn't create a new style. He just made the training "alive". When training they took away some of the deadly techniques like eye gouging. Waving your fingers in front of someone's eye's isn't going to make you a better fighter. But you can however do armlocks, chokes, throws and you can do these and actually practice them and develop fighting skill with them. Just becuase a techniques is not "deadly" does not mean it's not effective. The chokes can kill people and armlocks break arms. The difference is that the chokes and armlocks can be controlled without seriously hurting. If you even put your finger on someone's eye, they could get and eye infection, and if your training hard for hours and constanly eye gouging you can go blind.

[Ralek]

Red5Angel. Why not practice with full contact sparring instead of chi sau? Sure there will be rules for safety but you experience full contact blows in an "alive" situation. You develop fighting skills more applicible to the real world becuase your opponent is trying to knock you out and is not just doing one step sparring. Yes there are rules when you train like this but the simple fact that it is "alive" will help you more than any "dead" chisau. Chi sau ha no rules? wrong. in chi sau you can't do whatever you want. Your not allowed to start beotch slapping yoru opponent. YOu have to stay immoblie and do coreographed moves.

This article has inspired me. It is a philosophy that has been around for thousands of years and it is so simple. I think people get carried awasy with the drills and patterns when this is most of their training.

[Ralek]

Hard core baby. All the people who do "no rules" training such as one step sparring are decieving themselves. It's not "no rules" becuase the attacker just throws a punch and then just stands there like a dummy while you simulate an eye gouge and throat strike. This kind of training might have some benefit such as developing reactions to a sucker punch, but it's not a good thing to base your training on. It isn't good to base your training on forms either. Some say the forms are just an exercise to deveolp muscles. Well that's fine but where is the "alive" training at?

[Ralek]

Alive. We are alive so therefore woundn't it make sense to do "alive" training? You develope reactions based on another alive opponent.

In one step sparring, forms, and other dead methods you deveop reactions for dead opponents. Your opponent punches and just stops to let you hit him. Your just learning to fight dead people. Sorry but your not going to be attacked by a dead man in the street. Your attacker will be alive so your training should also be alive.

It also puzzles me why systems are based on animals. I've never been attacked by an animal. I am more worried about fighting humans. I am a human myself. My style is based on humans, not bugs, birds, and dragons.

[LEGEND]

Scotty...Matt Thornton just doesn't believe in the set pattern...he has his reasons...nor does he believe in trapping. He just believes in sparring sparring sparring. But I wouldn't judge him harshley...just in the future if u want to train at a fighter's gym then go there for a week. They have a good crop of fighters.

[red5angel]

Ralek, I am not saying that reality training is abd thing, sparring is definitely necessary. Chi sao is an excersise taht teaches you sensitivity among other things. It is not sparring or real life training beyond that.
I woul drecommend sparring to anyone, it teaches you improvisation and how to be prepared. But I would aslo recommend forms, and static training for reflex actions and muscle memory. there are two extremes, like everything else, to MA, one, that real life training is the only way, and the other, that traditional training is the only way, the answer is probably somwhere in between.

[KC Elbows]

I agree. Both have merits. I agree that, if your sparring training stops at 1,2...3 step sparring, then you are seriously limiting your options, and mistaking exercises for fighting. Also, the nature of step sparring must be taken into account-sometimes, when people are uncomfortable with full sparing, my teacher will have them do step sparring, but not block attack and poke to the eye, using the example above. He'll say "OK, you're on offense, you're on defense" and the exercise might be to keep your distance, or close the distance, etc. However, the goal is to fight, and these are just drills to strengthen your weak areas so that you can get more out of fighting.

Also, our style does chi sau, though it is different than wing chun chi sau, and as far as the beotch slap, if your partner leaves themselves open to the beotch slap, then it is your responsibility to beotch slap them. Also, it is a separate practice than fighting, it works a specific moment much more: the moment you make contact. Also, it teaches you to not give your opponent any force to use against you. If you really want to get something out of chi sau, and you never once get slapped/hit really hard, you're doing it wrong(in our style).

As far as forms, I look at them as mostly an encyclopedia for the system. I'm very interested in the system, so I wish to preserve it. Forms work some other things, like linking attacks together and so forth, but to me, this is secondary, as training combos is really the same thing(and combos are really just very short forms.)

Ralek, sounds like you should study natural boxing. I don't know much about it, but if I recall right, it has no set form. Or, if you could find an old school tai chi school, a lot of the old style guys don't teach it as a form, but simply teach each movement separately, and the old school guys play a much more brutal push hands than the purely meditative guys(who kind of **** me off, no offence to anyone here).

Somewhat off topic, but I've always considered, when I'm teaching on my own, teaching the techniques on their own, and saving the form for those who want to carry the system.

[Shaolindynasty]

I think this guy missed the point.

Let's see if you should always do things the way he described then you shouldn't do

pushups or other exercises- why do them you'll never see anybody in a fight do them

Bag work- A bag feel different than a person also it doesn't move with "alive" footwork.

Sparring- Sparring is still just a drill, in a real fight nobdy will have restrictions

Anybody can think of a reason NOT to do something. Each Exercise/drill/form or whatever will train some paticular quality that is useful in combat. He would probally counter with the "there is no effective segment of reality" arguement:rolleyes: The best JKD guys I have seen are neither "traditionalists" or "eclectic" Because being either binds you to somthing. Anyway isn't being eclectic the new tradition?

[MonkeySlap Too]

Dang. I agree with Ralek on most of these points - except for a few:

Sensitivity drills like Chi Sau can build attributes that are translatable - just like jumping rope or a speed bag would for a boxer.

Form does have a purpose - if you are learning with the right purposes in mind. But if the majority of your training is just solo forms practice, you are fooling yourself.

Forms training actually varies widely in its purpose and it's method based on what CMA you are talking about. I cannot discount it's value, however I would agree that the great majority of MA schools I have seen would be better off without it, as they do it 'just because it's traditional' or 'someday I'll get the secret applications'.

A student should know why they are doing something so that they can maximize the benefit.

[Shaolindynasty]

Dang Monkeyslap each post I read of yours makes me regret that I missed the opportunity to train with you, we see eye to eye on alot of things. Good Post

[Ralek]

If you are doing Kata's for exercise then that is fine. If your doing some kind of training that is "dead" then that is fine as long as your are doing it for exercise only. Taebo is "dead" becuase your don't even have a partner. But that's ok becuase it is just exercise.

Forms have no value for fighting skill. However they can be a good muscle and cardio workout just like taebo. Boxer's do a lot of "dead" training such as jump rope, running, and bagwork. "Dead" training is fine as long as it's for exercise.

But if you could you imagine what would happen if boxers didn't do any of their "alive" training? What would happen if boxers never did their sparring?

Could you imagine BJJ if all you did was learn techniques and theorize how you might tap out your opponent?

It's a scary thought. If that happened then the hard core arts like boxing, BJJ, mauythai, would become dead styles like kung fu.

[Stacey]

he's right about the aloof sifu, but what about the sifus that still fight. He doesn't see the whole picture. Go back to the 70's and all the kung fu guys were fighting in parks to supplement their training. My own sifu told me to fight with pads and then after iron body training, without. We do Chi Sau moving around and make good fighters. He has valid points and invalid ones.

He's a traditionalist in his fighting approach, but doens't know that much.

[Cipher]

The funny thing is that Kungfu has been well know for their open challenges between masters and fighters, even in america there are a lot of peopl that challenge each other. Go to China and watch the people training in the temples, after they train all day they go out into the streets and fight all night, not drills but fight each other to improve their training. Doing drills such as Chi Sou ans Lop sou ect.ect. haver great effects on your reflexes and fighting ability, I do think though that every training session should consist a lot of sparring and padded heavy sparring, this helps you bring it all together and use it. Every day when I train we allays have about half or more of contact sparring or flowing. If you spar with light contact and don't or just barely toch the target then when you get in a fight chances are you will tip tap the same way. So Pads are good to soften the blow but still allow for contact. But to say that all drills have no good purpose is ignorant, maybe without doing a lot of sparring but most people should realize the need for contact sparring. Just my 2cents.

[MonkeySlap Too]

Ralek, your trying too hard. By dead and alive, you are simply talking about sparring / fighting. Are you really that stupid? How do you build the attributes to fight? In Western boxing you use pad drills (dead? Almost dead? Half alive?), bag work, running and sparring.

Every real CMA guy I know loves to fight. Some are active, some aren't. Just like boxers. Depends on whats happening in your life.

If you are talking about forms junkies, I'd agree. A lot of people have been fooled.

But, in CMA form practice does have a direct result on fighting ability. As does various two person drills. I realize you are trolling and just seeking to honk off people, but why ruin your chance to make a really good point by following up in such a childish manner?

Oh. I think I know the answer to that one.

[MonkeySlap Too]

What I meant to say was try fighting without the training you call 'dead'. The guy spending his time with the dead, is the guy who'll spend the most time living.

If you know what I mean.

If all your saying is -- duh -- you should fight to understand fighting - wow - you are like, a genius, man. What are you smoking?

[Black Jack]

Here is a perfect example of what you might of been in reference to when you talked about people fooling themselves.

The bad part is that a good number of the CMA people I have met really seemed to believe in this logic to some degree or another.

This is from a letter posted in the new issue of BB.

Kata Article the Best

Thanks for "Ultimate Kata," by Floyd Burk (October 2000). It clearly explained why kata provides effective training for real world combat, how they work and how they fit into the total curriculum. I am a traditional kung fu stylist who worked for years in locked psychiatric facilities, residential treatment centers and group homes where violent individuals sometimes had to be physically restrained. While using the defensive aspects of my art, I found my forms training to be highly effective. Other traditional martial artists who ahve undergone similar encounters have reported the same thing.

Modern skeptics can say what they want, but kata survived for thousands of years because warriors who practiced them bested the warriors who did not.

Come de say Bull****??

They also developed a philosophy that went beyond fighting and explored questions of life and civilized behavior.

Again, another come de say bull****??

They lived to hand down their skills and philosophy, both treasures fo their experiance. Kata have survived the test of time.

What test???

How many of today's systems and training methods will be around in 500 to 1,000 years.

I consider a guy who makes uneducated blanket statements like that to fit into the crowd you are talking about.

Thoughts on the article and its mindset, anyone ?

[guohuen]

That guy was just verbally masturbating for his own enjoyment.

[MonkeySlap Too]

Blackjack,
I just ponder a guy calling Taolu 'kata' for petes sake. He makes an awful lot of blanket statements, that I do not think can be backed up by any historical fact.

Form training properly used has a value in training fighting skills. If the person training doesn't have a purpose and understanding behind his form work, he's wasting his time. Just like someone who jumps rope by putting it on the ground and walking back and forth over it.

[Shaolindynasty]

To me forms are similar to shadowboxing (isn't that what people call it on the movies:D ) I don't expect any one part of my training to make me good at fighting, it's the combination of things that will after all "There is no effective segment of reality:D " If you only do forms, that is bad. If you only do sparring that is bad to. You need both drills and sparring. Forms only would be like going in the military learning how to march and shoot but never have been in a "combat simulation" and sparring only would be like going in the simulation first. If you look at either extreme they both look stupid don't they.

[red5angel]

Well, I have to say that I too believe that forms training can help, in WC we like to say that Chis sau and SLT are our laboratories, we learn from them, seek out all of WCs' "secrets" for ourselves, and train our bodies to seek them out on thier own, with no help from the mind.
I do believe that history can be used to show that this sort of training does work, it has been successful in tha past, and probably would not be so prevalent if it did not work.

[scotty1]

Thanks for the opinions guys.