"Knockout" punches: To the face versus the side of the head? Opinions?

[fmann]

I was wondering what people have to say about the "knockout" effectiveness of straight punches directed towards the face compared to punches to the sides of the head (hooks, off-line punches, etc.) in a fight situation.

How big of a difference in the effectiveness of the strikes as seen by personal experiences (such as in bar-room brawls, street fights, sparring, etc.) ?

And if so, is there any correlating information, say in boxing, for example? e.g., number of knockdowns/staggers due to straight punches versus hooks.

[shaolinboxer]

I'd say each has it's advantage.

I think a punch to the nose is very emotionally disturbing and can make the eyes water and distort vision. The front of the jaw can lead to broken teeth and dislocation.

But the side of the head it the knockout area. Above what you'd consider your temple, and back about a half inch is a very sensitive cluster of nerves and capilaries. This area is very weak and focus percussive contact can cause unciousness or death (and it hurts like an sob)

[myosimka]

Shaolinboxer

In my experience most knockdowns actually come from straight shots to the chin. Shots to the side of the head hurt but they are easier to roll/step with. Your head only goes so far straight back before balance becomes a serious issue. That means that you not only lose your balance but you probably also didn't roll with it the way you did one of those side shots. I have had much better luck over the years with a cross or uppercut to the chin than a hook to the side of the head. (A hook will still do the job nicely though)

However, the hook seems really effective when it hits. I think this is because you can flub the distance on a straight cross and it looks like the punch scored when it came up short. If you come up short on the distance with a hook, you just miss. As a result when they get the shot in on a hook they have already done something right(distance) which is not true of the cross. See it almost every class we spar with headgear. Crosses are done from 4 inches outside its effective range and hooks flail wildly. Student sits down and says 'if only the hook had scored' I respond 'if only the cross had scored' Student replies 'But I did land the cross.' People have this notion that the hook is this huge finishing move (which it can be) but I have rarely seen it work like that except following a cross that had already done the job.

[fmann]

I raised this question because anatomically speaking, the brain is more apt to resist front to back motions than side to side motions. This is why a woodp e cker, for example, doesn't get a concussion from knocking on a tree repeatedly. But you can knock it out with a blow from the side. The bones of the skull in general I think are weaker on the side, too, and are more apt to fracture on the temples, etc..

This is also the reason that helmets and head gear for boxing have immense padding or reinforcement on the sides.

"Knockdown" blow may be different from a "knock-out" blow though. A knockdown can occur by jarring the head such that the balance centers of the head don't recover. Therefore the person loses balance, falls, but can get up and continue fighting given enough time.

However, there are more factors at play, like the movement of the neck and the strength of the neck.

[Ish]

"Knockdown" blow may be different from a "knock-out" blow though. A knockdown can occur by jarring the head such that the balance centers of the head don't recover. Therefore the person loses balance, falls, but can get up and continue fighting given enough time.

Dont give them enough time. as soon as they hit the floor either run or if they are going to get back up hit them again.

[scotty1]

I read in one of Geoff Thompsons books that the best place to strike someone to knock them down/out is a hook or hooked cross to the chin. This is because the chin acts like a fulcrum which twists the head and bashes the brain against the skull.

Never tried it though.

[myosimka]

I have never seen a knockout from a single strike to the head. Even the single kick knockout in the 1993 Sabaki(awesome move by Pat SMith and ****ed funny) was set up by other stuff. Knockdown and the balance issues let you follow up with that finishing knee to the head, undefended punching flurry, close to clinch range and repeated elbows, whatever. I have seen people knocked out but never from a single headshot. The only times I have seen it done from single shots were near perfect shots to the solar plexus. And that I've only seen twice in 11 years of MA and once in baseball. I consider that stuff fluke enough that I would never have it as a goal. A shot to daze them and the getting free shots in a ground

[LEGEND]

There's tapes of single strike KO without combinations...the strike to the face is KNOCKDOWN is due to that individual not use to being hit in the face! And so he goes down due to the pain not cause he's KO.

[Mantis9]

Have you ever heard of a boxer having a glass jaw? The cause of glass jaw is normally anatomical. There is a very sensitive nerve set behind the chin, running back to the jaw. The closer to the surface or sensitive the nerve is the more likely you have a glass jaw. Generally, people with broader chins suffer from this because they have less bone between the blow and the nerve compared to pointer chinned people.

Being struck, the nerve is put into shock - with enough shock occuring you'll black out because your nervous system is unable to deal with it.

My point is that sufficent force to this vunerable area or others on the head (back of the neck, temples, etc) when stuck properly will knockout your opponent. A cross would do the best job if going for the chin as opposed to a hook. The uppercut works well there, too.

Simply jarring your opponent brain to effect a knockout, I would choose because of the torque you can generate with your legs, waist, and body.

Good question.

[umgong]

I beg to differ. Non-scientific, but when B.Lee was starting his College St. school, he had an open challenge to any black belt or higher to see if they could beat Bruce.

I personally saw Bruce knockout 6 black belts in a row with a single straight punch to the chin area just below the teeth. I was the sixth one. We were all champion tournament fighters, but against Bruce...he just did a straight lead hand punch...to the area just above the chin...we were all knocked out standing up.

Some of the most devastating punches that I have taken has been a roundhouse to the temple, though. Knocks you out, all right, but torques your body at the same time.

With Bruce...didn't even feel it. Either way, you are out though.

[Mantis9]

I think I was unclear. I'll try to clarify.

IMHO, I was giving the best punch for how you might want to effect a knockout. Straight cross to the chin; hook for a concusive knockout.

Personnally, I would prefer the cross to the hook, because it needs less force to accomplishment and has great accuracy and speed.

Sorry about the misunderstanding.

[fmann]

So from what has been discussed, a blow to injure the brain and head severely is not the same as a blow that will knock a person out.

Whereas a blow to the sides of the head will cause the most life-threatening injuries due to the thinness of the bone, blood vessels that can be easily ruptured if the bone is fractured, and the support on the brain, apparently the lower jaw (mandible) is the more ideal target for a controlled blow that can cause momentary unconsciousness even without full power/torque behind it.

Very interesting...

[Chris McKinley]

My perspective is as a western physiologist, a TCM practitioner, and as someone who has knocked people out literally dozens of times. As someone pointed out, there is a difference between a knockDOWN punch and a knockOUT one. It is actually relatively easy to strike some to the head so as to produce unconsciousness. There are cranial and facial nerves spread like a web all over the head, some of which require a fairly light strike in order to get them to send an electrochemical signal to the brain which is above an intensity threshold to produce KO.

Also to be considered is the mechanical KO. This may occur separately or in conjunction with the neural KO. An example is when someone gets "cashed in" in boxing, where they take a straight-on blow to the chin producing unconsciousness. Beside the pinching of the greater auricular nerve by the backside of the jaw hinge, force is also transmitted to the skull in such a direction that the occipital portion of the brain and the brain stem can be impacted against the inside of the skull. Such impact is often sufficient to produce a KO, and may even result in permanent residual brain damage as in the case of veteran boxers who are "punch drunk".

The same type of mechanical KO can also be produced by a blow to the side of the skull as well. An even more direct method, and one which often requires very little comparative force, is a strike to the back of the skull along the occipital ridge. Transfer of force is more direct this way, and also may result in an additional whiplashing effect as the skull is quickly rotated backward and forward again upon its axis, smacking the brain around a bit inside, and perhaps also including a possible pinching of the spinal cord in that area, which alone could produce KO.

A strike in from the side to the ear may produce unconsciousness by yet still a different method. Sudden impact and pressure upon the proprioceptive nerves of the middle and inner ear can result in KO due to loss of proprioception; that is, a sensation of where one is in space in relation to the direction of the pull of gravity.

Bottom line is that producing a KO isn't all that hard (though it's never guaranteed). What's really important is which tool you use to achieve it. Punching a bowling ball isn't usually a very wise thing to do, and that's kind of what's happening when you use a fist to strike anywhere above the jaw on the human skull. Yeah sure, you might get a nice KO, but you're likely to experience your first "boxer's fracture" if you try it in a real situation. In which case, you'd better hope you get that KO, because you're not likely using THAT hand again in that fight.

[fmann]

Excellent post, Chris -- it had much of the information I was seeking.

[Nichiren]

I agree with Scotty1. The best way to knock a person out is by a hook to the chin. The knockout is a result of the brain moving out of sync with the scull and this causes an accelaration on the brain itself.

I have seen statistics on what punch caused the most knockouts in boxing and it was the left hook by far.

[Sensei Kunz]

I believe in my experience, they all work, it's always the one your opponent doesn't see or expect.

[Kristoffer]

just elbow the muthaf.ucker

[TenTigers]

Years back when I was studying Tang SooDo, I was ko'd by my teacher. I came in for a reverse punch, he side stepped me and hooked me straight on the chin, not sideways, It was a head-on collision-my head on his fist! This is where the term "right on the button "comes from. He said it felt like someone just cut the strings on a marionette. I just went limp. I wasn't hurt, and my eyes were open, I kinda landed on my butt and just sat there smiling! It was a pretty kewl experience, one knowing that knockouts are quite easy, two- the fear of feeling your own vulnerability-a wake-up call to say the least. and three- knowing that if I ever get knocked out, at least it won't hurt! (yeah, just wake me up when it's over)
I haven't been ko'd since- I cover up real good now! although I still have been rocked, I keep my chin down, and it seems to work.

[Sensei Kunz]

It sounds like he intercepted your attack, which makes the hit twice as powerful. It wouldn't take much but really atap to knock someone out in a head-on-collision! LOL! The lights just go out!
I believe you when you say you now protect yourself real good. Good lesson.

[TenTigers]

not fer nuttin...but...(and not that I'm tryin to start trouble..) but..it seems that most of the expert replies were all in theory and none save for a few came from experience, theory is great, and I am interested in anatomy and physiology, but I would like to hear from some who've been there done that, and please, no macho war stories. Nobody's intersted in how tough you are, just in what you have seen and felt.

[red_fists]

Hmm.

Might explain one of the applications we got in my style.

Didn't think it would be that effective though.

[Brushfire]

Good post Chris,
I experinced two bar fights in which two different guys were clocked real good.In both instances the attacker did not telegraph and did not use a fist and he did not know any martial arts. In both instances though the attacker, was an experience fighter (biker).
In the first instance the attacker swung the inside of his right forearm (boney part)from a relaxed position on his side to connect with the underside of the guys left jaw. He totally connected, the guy dropped instantly, the attacker went back to drinking.
In the second occassion one guy was siting down while a beligerant kept mouthing off to the guy sitting, as he came closer to the table and in range, the sitting guy, swung out his open palm in a cupped position and cranked the side of the head at the ear. WHOP! Everyone heard the sound! The guy who was hit was a large mother who stumbled away and passed out near his table, which was nearby.