Original Mantis forms

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

Bung Bo, Lan Jeet and Baat Jow are original Praying Mantis forms created by Wong Long. I am only familiar with the Moy Fa Lan Jeet. References to 8 Elbows keeps coming up in this forum and I'm interested in finding out more about it as well as the others. Maybe I've seen it but just don't know it by name. What other Mantis styles include these forms and how do they differ from one another?

[MightyB]

Could someone roughly translate 8 elbows to Cantonese? Maybe I've seen it but don't know it's English name.

To tell you the truth, I'm going to have to ask my Sifu about Lan Jeet and Baat Jow because I'm not able to get a mental image of what these forms are either.

[Mantis9]

I know that in 7*mantis 8 elbows in a closed door form, restricted to student close to graduating in the system. I haven't seen it, because I'm - well- not ready to see it, let alone learn the form.

If you have seen it, I consider you lucky.

[tiger lui]

In our style,TCPM,bung bo is the second form taught.

Baat jow is taught as two forms,upper and lower baat jow,thats an intermediate form.

Lan jeet is one of three advanced forms,the other two are jet yew and ground mantis,cheers:)

[EARTH DRAGON]

8 step has 23 forms though most are not taught to the general public we do consider lan jie (intercept) a more intermediate/advanced form but we do include it in our regular ciriculum to give students a opportunity to one of learn orignal mantis sets

[Tainan Mantis]

Hua Lin Laoshr,
It is written that luan jie was created by the brother of Wang Lang's wife, his name was Zhau Zhu.

TJPM has all three forms.

7*:
In Won Han Fun's 10 year program he taught 8 claws. That sounds like 8 elbows in Chinese, ba zhua and ba zho, respectively. I don't know What this 8 claws is. One of his students who became a teacher came to Taiwan to learn mei hwa 8 elbows from my teacher. This is where we first heard this story. Later I saw Brendan Lai's syllabus has 8 claws(written in Chinese) but no 8 elbows.
If there is another 8 elbows in 7* I'd like to hear about it.

Mei Hwa doesn't have beng bu, but their 8 Elbows has 3 or 4 sections.

Mimen also no beng bu but 8 elbows has 4 sections.

I've heard that Wah Lum has all three from GM Chan's cousin who is also a teacher of Wah Lum, but they are rarely seen.



Mighty B,
BAAT JOW is Cantonese.

[MightyB]

So Lan Jeet would be the Jet Yew forms like Yee Lo Jet Yew (sp?). That makes sense, but they are reserved for advanced students where bung bo is one of the first forms taught.

Tainan, is Baat Jow eight elbows or eight claws?

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

So far the only Lan Jeet I've seen during my time with Wah Lum came from Zhang Bing Dao. One seminar was quite a few years ago, 18Eldersmay know or have taken that, and the other was 1999. I wasn't on either one of those trips. I haven't looked to see if it's changed at all between the two seminars. I still think these three forms may be above the level I'm at right now.

[Tainan Mantis]

Mighty B,
jow is elbow. Mantis 108 can tell us what claw is in Cantonese.

Also, Luan Jie(Lan Jeet) and Dzai Yao(Jet Yew) are not the same forms.

[MightyB]

You guys got me curious. Unfortunately, I won't be able to ask about Lan Jeet or Baat Jow until Thursday night.

Good stuff.

[mantis108]

Hi All,

There are 2 words in Chinese that means elbow. One is Jang, the other is Jow. The character in Chinese composed of Flesh and compete for the Jang. The other Jow, which sounds like claw in Chinese, is composed of Flesh and Inch. We often have that problem with oral transmissions back in the old days. That's why Chinese can't talk to Chinese! LOL... :D Another thing about Jang and Jow is that Jang is commonly use term in Southern and Jow is more a Northern may be because of the Jang sounds lauder and We (I am Cantonese) are southern barbarian so lauder is good! :D

About the three forms, IMHO, there are in progression similar to that of the Wing Chun 3 forms. We first have Bung Bo for footwork. Then Lan Jeet for the hands, finally combining the long range footwork with the short range hands. Even the immortals would find it hard to escape.

Mantis108

[ShaolinMantis]

Greetings and Happy 2002 to all

I have been told there are 3 levels to Bung Bo.
Begining, intermedate, advance.

Baat Jow was at one time one form (set), then broken into 2 sets. Han or Ha Baat jow and San or Sa Baat Jow= Upper and lower eight elbows. spelling maybe off

[Old Mantis]

Bazhou (8 elbows), Luanjie (Chaotically Connected [Techinques]) and Bengbu (Crash and Fill In) are the 3 original PM forms.

Praying Mantis Boxing Manual by Master Liang Xuexiang (1810-?) has all 3 forms and the names of the moves. All these original forms are preserved in Plum Blossom PM tradition.

Tainan Mantis:

Meihua Tanglang does have Bengbu.
When Jiang Hualong was in his advanced years he did not teach it. He preferred Meihua Lu. Thus when Jiang Hualong was teaching in Changshan Village Boxing School, he did not teach it, so Li Kunshan did not learn it.

Meihua Tanglang's Bengbu is called Laiyang Bengbu and is quite different from Yantai Bengbu or 7* Bengbu.

Laiyang Bengbu was originally taught by Song Zide and Jiang Hualong to Wang Yushan and Cui Shoushan (2 out of 3 Mountains of Laiyang City) in Zhaoge Zhuang Village Boxing School.

Here is a part of Ilya Profatilov's article in JAMA which discribes this in details,

"When Jiang Hualong and Song Zide were middle-aged, they decided to teach Tanglang Quan openly and together established a boxing school (quan fang) in Zhaoge Zhuang Village in Laiyang County. At that time, Jiang Hualong did not like to participate in teaching. Often he just observed or supervised the training process. Song Zide was the one who actually did most of the teaching. When Jiang Hualong was sixty-years old he decided to start teaching on his own and opened a second boxing school in Chang Shan Village in Laiyang. However, he would often visit Zhaoge Zhuang boxing school and help Song teach in their original school.

When Jiang started teaching in Chang Shan school, he altered the original Tanglang Quan that he used to teach in his old Zhaoge Zhuang school with Song Zide. He both modified and ommited some original forms. For instance Jiang did not teach the original "Crash and Fill in" (Bengbu) form to his students who had already learned the "Plum Blossom Path" (Meihua Lu) form, because of relative similarities in the techniques and vise versa."

[mantis108]

Old Mantis wrote:

"Bazhou (8 elbows), Luanjie (Chaotically Connected [Techinques]) and Bengbu (Crash and Fill In) are the 3 original PM forms. "

This is rather interesting (in fact his whole post is interesting too) because I could see the Chinese words in the English translations and it makes a lot more sense than adapting the 7* names and meaning. I am not dissing 7* by any means. But these name as listed by old mantis connect with the Taiji Praying Mantis really well. I can see some coherence.

Discarding Kung Lik Kuen, which is a recent injection to the TJPM system, the first form that is taught is Bung Bo (Crashing Step or Hopping Step as translated according to 7* and TJPM). The focus turns out to be footwork. Especially, in TJPM's case the 8 basic stances are all in the Bung Bo clearly and "solidly" (although there is a fast version that looks more like the 7* footworks which has quite a few more single point base of support). In Old Mantis's list Bengbu (Crash and Fill in) seems to be (at least in meaning wise) compliment of the second form of TJPM, which is Jit Gun (Swiftly followed). So there is IMHO a flow in PM form teaching back in the old days but somehow it became broken up for whatever reasons. As least this is my impression of the Mui Fah various lineages. The names of the forms also seems to be of deliberate thoughts also. Crash and Fill in - with footwork(then) Swiftly followed - the opening (if opponent counter fiercely) Chaotically connected - with my hands ... so on so forth. Though this is my speculations only. The inspiration came from GM Chiu's manual which has a very broken off "strategy" sonet. What if the names of the forms are similar in nature?

The info that I have is consistant with Old Mantis in that the "original" Plum Blossom system seems to have 3 Mei Fah Forms (also know as the Mei Fah San Sau?) along side the 3 Mantis forms plus Dzai Yao.

Taiji Praying Mantis of Sigung Chiu's version retains the 3 Mantis and Dzai Yao. One Mei Fah which I am not sure if it has any connection to the Mei Fah san sau. Then there is Ng Sau Tsui (5 hand Punch) which looks like a sub set of Dei Tong Long (Ground Mantis).

Well, enough code breaking for one day. lol... :D it's fun though.

Mantis108

[Tainan Mantis]

Old Mantis,
You have answered a question that has long been in my heart, namely;
did Liang's manuscript have beng bu.

This brings up another question.

Does Liang's manuscript for luan jie and 8 elbows match those by Li Kun Shan and the one published by Jiang Bing Do?

Also, how many sections in that old 8 elbows of Liang's manuscript?

Thanks for clearing up the confusion.

My Shr fu said that Han Hsiang Ye preserved his old manuscript. It was sold to a PM master in S. Korea for 50,000 ping of land(the size of 100,000 tatami mats).
When he was in Korea he saw it himself.

[Old Mantis]

Tainan Mantis,

—Also, how many sections in that old 8 elbows of Liang's manuscript? —

8 elbows is ONE long form and it has no sections.

In the 20s and 30s some PM masters split it into 4 sections (Jiang Hualong, Song Zide, Wang Yushan, Cui Shoushan), some into 3 sections (Li Kunshan) and some into 2 sections (Zhao Zhuxi/Chui Chuk Kai). It is simply easier to teach this way, after all the form is 8x8=64 elbow techniques...way too long.

—Does Liang's manuscript for luan jie and 8 elbows match those by Li Kun Shan and the one published by Jiang Bing Do? —

I can't answer this question till I see Ilya next time, he has many manuscripts and probably will have an answer. I'll keep you posted.

[Syre]

How does the original 8 elbows relate to the 8's in 8-step PM?

In 8-step there's an "8 elbows" too, but it's really only 8 elbows. There are other 8's such as 8 stances, 8 palms, 8 hands, 8 blocks, etc.

It may be (and probably is) that more advanced levels have more elbows, but I'm curious about how these all relate.

[EARTH DRAGON]

The eight elbows that they are speaking of is a form, not to be confused with the 8 elbows of the 8's as first learned in the green sash i.e horizontal, vertical down etc.. etc

[MightyB]

I asked my Sihing about Lan Jeet.

It's taught as one of the advanced forms in my school. I haven't been taught it yet.

I didn't get a chance to ask my Sifu about Baat Jow yet.

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

Funny how 8's seem to come up a lot. In Wah Lum we have 8 basic stances, 8 basic punches, 8 basic kicks, an exercise called 8 Chain Punch, 16 Hands (2x8).

I still haven't seen any reference to Bung Bo, Lan Jeet and Baat Jow in Wah Lum yet but that doesn't mean we don't have them. Maybe I could prove myself worthy somehow and be one of the few to learn them. :D :D :D

[Tainan Mantis]

Hua Lin Laoshr,
Did you know that Big Mantis is beng bu?

[Syre]

How about footwork... is the monkey-style footwork in Mantis the same as or similar to the footwork in Monkey-Style Kung Fu, or is it just another set of footwork also based on observing monkeys in the wild?

How has the footwork changed in the various styles of Mantis over the years?

Is 8-Step the only variation of Mantis which has modified the footwork from the original monkey-style, or have the others also modified the footwork?

Any comments on this?

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

Tainan
I didn't know that other than from another one of your posts indicating you thought Big Mantis was Wah Lum's Bung Bo. I haven't asked about it and have to get through 5th Form before I learn it.

[yu shan]

Tainan Mantis
Interesting Wah Lums Big Mantis is Beng Bu, never heard this. I was fortunate to have been taught 2 versions, P. Chans & Chan Wan Chings. Could you explain , I`m going over 7* and can`t even see the simis. Sorry bout the ignorance.

Hua Lin
Isn`t the #8 a Lucky number?

[Tainan Mantis]

This I have heard from three Wah Lum sifus. At present one is still in the system and one is certified under CWC elder brother.

In an interview with CWC published in HK while he was still alive he says"...Wah Lum is similar to other PM styles in that it has forms such as beng bu and lan jie, but of special note is a form called little mantis, otherwise known as iron door bolt..."

I have not learned the Wah Lum beng bu, I only have a video of it. The first time I saw it I also didn't recognize it, but after watching closely I saw beng bu. Some aspects are similar to 7* and some are similar to TJPM.

The kung fu cousin of Chan Poi's who studied with the head instructor of Wah Lum Canton branch (CWC elder brother) has told me Wah Lum contains the 3 Wang Lang forms, beng bu, lan jie and 8 Elbows(no relation to 18 elbows).

I asked if his beng bu has 3 jump kicks in the first route to which he says yes.
In 7* beng bu there is a front kick in first route 2 man that usually isn't taught in the solo version. The Wah Lum takes that one kick and turns it into three without disrupting the logic of the form.

[18elders]

if my chinese is correct your name translates to jade mountain which is what LKS name was before he changed it. Are you naming yourself after him or after the mountain in Taiwan?

[flem]

18elders

why do you concern yourself so much over names and who's who?

[18elders]

how's my good buddy flem today. I tripled up on the medication today so i'm very happy.
Actually yu shan is a very good friend of mine, just messing around with him as his name is after the tallest peak in taiwan, just happened to translate out to lks real name.
Sorry to upset you, would you like me to send you some of my medication?

[yu shan]

Tainan Mantis

Thank you for the info on Big Mantis. It and Lil Mantis, are to me, two of the nicest Wah Lum forms! There is definetely an Explosive flavor to them both. Since I do know 7* Beng Bu, I can kind of see some of the same apps/movements. My Shrfu has not taught me the two person yet,I`m sure I will discover more sutle simis from there.You have to admit though , WL`s Beng Bu is quite differant, more so than other BB versions. If WL has these 3 Mantis forms, Why doesn`t anyone know the other two? I see hints of mantis all thru WL, but that being said,I see predominently southern Hong Kong gong fu. I am not saying this is a bad thing, the mixture is quite Dynamic.
I was told by one of my Shrfus(and I was Lucky to have Two of the Best) that forms 1 thru 6 are merely training forms, and that I would never see the real Mantis forms of WL! Out of these 6 My favorites were 2,3,and 5.
Pong Lai has opened my eyes and I can see the Mountain Top!

18 Elders

I`m studying a book on Taiwan and thought it Ironic the name of the tallest Mtn. their. Plus they say it`s very weathered and scarred at top. So 18 Old Men, you know my age, read between the lines. Ha Ha!! Plus I wanted to push your buttons a bit. Oh yea, what`s wrong with idealizing a Famous escort? God I hope you`ve taking your medicine! So O, what do you think about what Tainan said about 3 Wang Lang forms in WL?

Hua Lin

Are you learning 5th form now? Notice how it starts out looking very southern? It is a very good form none the less,half way in you`ll have to take a nap.

Flem

Thanks for jumping 18 Old Timer for me, He needs to be kepted in check.

Everyone

I`m new here, so try not to bash me right off. I respect everyone, just trying to expand my knowledge and it`s kind of fun to read the friendly banter. I`m spoon fed and love it!

TRAIN HARD OR GO HOME!

[18elders]

now that you have joined the KFO we will have to call you the 19th. old man!

lan jie, 8 elbows in WL
They may very well be in other branches of the original WL but i have never heard of it in Chan Poi's branch. They may have never learned it before LKS died. From what i have heard after LKS died WL split into different branches and one was the HK branch.Those form may have never been passed on. I guess the best way would be for either Hua lin or Sa mantis or Northern Mantis to ask master chan about it.

[18elders]

I also was lucky enough to see a form called Saint hands in WL. My shr-fu at the time asked master chan about it and he just walked away from him.
Could you asked your friend (chan wan ching's senior kung fu bro.) if he knows about it?
I had it on tape but unfortunately i taped over it.

[yu shan]

18 Elders

I`ve heard you speak of this Saint Hands form in WL before, can you remember the movement, and how did it start out?
It will be interesting to see what Tainan comes up with. He has good info.

Have you noticed forms taught years ago were more complexed and seemed to have basically alot more stuff? I had heard, they were making it where it was more obtainable, that the forms were just plain too difficult for the regular smuck. I am referring to Wah Lum material. I do not agree with watering down such a nice style, you should reward your Shrfus!with the advanced (way) and later on share when the student can get it. But, bottom line, what good is it if you are not TAUGHT the applications. Thanks to my Shrfu now, I am able to see some good apps. in WL and the numerous ways of applying. My Shrfu teaches me real Mantis Gong Fu, this in turn helps me with my old WL stuff, cuz you know and I know it`s all about application!
Spoon fed and Love it!

TRAIN HARD OR GO HOME!

[flem]

yu shan

it is interesting that you guys who didn't learn application all seem to be together, wonder why?

[Jack Squat]

Saint Hands is a.k.a. So Lo Sow. Hopefully Tianan can shed some light on this almost mythical form.

yu shan- I agree. It does seem that the more recent forms are watered down, or at least earier to perform. I think it just may be good business to do so. You're right, the average schmuck can't do the advanced forms properly.

There's a guy who was at the tournament 2000, I think his name is Pham or something like that. He won in youth division. (Pham, if you are reading this and my information is incorrect, I apologize). He's a breath of fresh air-lots of skill, even more potential. He is the only one that I've seen lately who could pull off some of the old forms.

[Tainan Mantis]

My friend is a disciple of Wong K. Wing who studied with Lee Kwan Shan for 15 years. Master Wong was sihing to CWC as well as head instructor at Canton Wah Lum branch as I mentioned before.
According to him there were only 12 forms and drills for 2 people.

Out of respect for my friend I will not mention his name without his permission.

I have a list of the names of the forms. They are transliterated form Cantonese and so I don't recognize all the names.
I will list them here and you can show them to someone who is versed in Cantonese. Or maybe Mantis108 can help.

Names I know(Cantonese-Mandarin)

1.bung bo -beng bu AKA big mantis
2.lan jeet -lan jie
3.baht zhao -ba zhou
4.tam toy -tan tuei
5.lin wahn jurng -lien huan zhang? (continuous palms)
6.teet bay sow -tieh men suan- iron door bolt AKA little mantis
7.dai fan che -da fan che
8.yat lo lin wahn tam toy -yi lu lien huan tan tuei- first route continuous tan tuei
9.yee lo""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""second route""""""""""""""""""
10.saam lo""""""""""""""""""""""third route""""""""""""""""""""

I don't know the following:

11.yau ling kuen
12.yin ji chuen lum

Some of these forms are technically advanced with difficult kicks and splits.

According to Ilya Profatilov's article Jiang Hwa Long only tuaght the first 3 forms when he was younger. As he became older he removed those forms. They are also in TJPM.
But, da fan che form comes from Li Kun Shan's uncle. It was passed on to :
-8 Step
-7*
-plum flower and
-Wah Lum

This seems to indicate that:

1. Lee Kwan Shan's teacher learned from Jiang Hwa Long in his early days. When Da Fan Che was added, but before the first 3 forms were removed.

2. Lee Kwan Shan had another unnamed teacher who taught some of these forms to him. For example; Abbot Ching Yeung could have learned from some PM teacher the first 3 or maybe 2 forms and the Lee learned another 1 or 2 from someone else.

Solution:
compare the first 3 WL forms and Da Fan Che with versions in other styles. This would be a huge step in finding out who the Abbot learned from.

Also, #4 Tam Toy is taught different ways by dfferent schools. Seeing this form in WL(10 routes) could also help to unravel some more history.

[Joe Mantis]

Hua Lin:

If Big Mantis is Beng bu. AND Beng bu is a basic set and taught early in praying manits systems, how come it takes so long before one learns it in WL? I'm interested to know.
Thanks for the help.

[Joe Mantis]

Tainan:

#11 Yau ling - I have heard that this form is called "Soft Flexible Fist."
Not many people know it.

[Tainan Mantis]

Joe Mantis,
I believe that beng bu is only called a basic set in modern times since it is the first or one of the first sets taught. Also the WL version is more difficult than 7* and TJPM version.
Strange, the 7* lan jie is much easier or more basic looking than beng bu.

Sometimes I think this is a shame that beng bu is called basic since it causes students to think of beng bu as something for beginners(it is my all time fave), not realizing that Wang Lang put the essence of PM in this set as he understood it at the time. As opposed to him thinking,"first I'll invent an easy set for beginners to practice."

I remember you have done PM for 9 years right? You must have seen some people take beng bu, which looks great when done by your teacher and just mangle it up.
Although it is easier than some other forms I think it can be an advanced set if students look at it as such.

One of my GM who my shr fu said was one of the best out of 30, named Luan Hsing Fu, had an interesting way of teaching.
When someone knocked on his door to learn kung fu he would teach them the horse stance. The student had to sit like that for the whole class while GM Luan went to watch TV.
Nobody I knew in the states would pay money for this.

Ro Ling:
Soft agile fist. I haven't learned it but my kung fu brother often performed it. I also wondered if that is the set from the WL 12. But WL is heavy on kicks and that form has not a single kick.

The form Dwo Gang as my teacher learned it is meant to be done together with ro ling. In other words he said they are a pair.
I don't know if your teacher said that, but don't they look like they go together?

Also, in other PM teachers forms they say dzo gang and yo ling. Which means left rigid and right agile. So I wonder if these forms have also gone thruogh some name changes?

[mantis108]

11.yau ling kuen - Soft/flexible agile fist
12.yin ji chuen lum - Swallow (flies) throught the forrest.

#11 seems to be in 7* already

#12 I have a strange feeling that I might have heard it mentioned as 7* form but I am more inclined to think it is a Changquan Tanglang form. But then I could be way off here.

Speaking of pairs in PM forms. I think that Jit Gun in TJPM is sort of pair with Bung Bo mainly because there are similar techniques plus kind of an expansion of them . Also if the old Plam Blossom name is indeed Beng Pu (crash and fill in) , then Jit Gun (swiftly followed) will make a lot of sense as pairing with Beng Pu.

Mantis108

[yu shan]

Jack Squat

I was fortunate to have this "Pham" kid in my ring twice! Of course I scored him favorably He reminded me of a Si-Hing(Cantonese) I had in WL named Shrfu D Wong who to me is a true champion. You wonder WL practioners, why is he gone?
Thank you for the kudos on the "watering down" of WL. Some of the old stuff was amazing. Don`t you think P. Chan needs to pull out the stops, and properly propagate the American version of Wah Lum? As for good business, what`s next, a friggen belt ranking system?

Tainan Mantis

My first WL Shrfu used to get us in horse stance (flat out) and go off and stir fry or go to the 7-11 for coffee, sixty minutes later he would return and begin class. I payed money for this knowing that to reach the sweetness of Gong-Fu you have to taste the bitterness. Xia Xia for all the great insight that you provide.Da Fan Che, is this the same as Fan Cha?

Flem

Application Brothers we are together in heart united in Strength. All kidding aside, when you are strung along in WL for years with the perpetual carrot dangling in front of you, well what has happened to all the Greats? They realized the false euphoria and moved on to bigger and better.

Joe Mantis

What`s with the mystic of the Big Mantis form in WL ? Heck, 2 and 3 form will give you a **** of a good work-out if done properly. I respect Tainan, but I think he`s wrong about the comparison of 7* Beng Bu and American WL Big Mantis.To me,Beng Bu has a few more intricacies.

Mantis 108

Thank you also for your quality insight. I saw Yao Li do Swallow flies thru the forest back in the 70`s at least that is what he called it.

[flem]

yu shan

what is your definition of bigger and better? also, are you one of these greats? what made them great?

[yu shan]

Flem

Sorry, I should not have put it as bigger and better, just going down a differant road.
And I`m by no means one of the Greats. I`m just trying to make my mark, you know? To influence others to the MA and applying to their everyday lives. Let`s face it, MA`st are a cut above.
As for what made (them) great, friggen Character! You got it so does 18 Elders, Mantis 108 Jack Squat Tainan Sa Mantis Hua Lin etc. We are all in this together! I appreciate everyones quality input.

[flem]

yu shan

i appreciate that. then we should have some posts outside the application thing. i do not agree that apps are everything as you said before, only a small part, a bi-product if you will.

[Tainan Mantis]

My first WL sifu baked peach cobbler and sat in a soft chair eating it while we squatted in horse stance. I'll bet he was waiting for someone to make a comment on the irony, but we just kept squatting.

I used to walk with him to 7-11 where he would fill big gulp cups with coffee.
I wonder if we had the same teacher?
Did I meet you in Tampa about 1990?

Mantis108,
For #12 I believe you are thinking of Hsiao Hu Yen. Little tiger sparrow. There are 3 forms in this series.
I believe the name comes from a quote from Kung Ming in battle of the three kingdoms.

[Joe Mantis]

Tainan Mantis or Mantis 108

Have you seen Yau Ling Kuen or any version before?
If so I'd be interested to know what it's like?

Also, by "pairing of forms" do you mean that one side is the counter to the other? or With these forms one can do a two person set with them?

thanks!

[Tainan Mantis]

The form looks similar to Dwo Gang. At 32 moves it is about the same length. It has 1 kick. The moves for the most part are all in other forms of 7*, just arranged differently.
It goes well not only with Dwo Gang , but also 18 elders, cha chuei and beng bu.

2 man forms
"...one side is the counter to the other?"
I don't think I follow. Do you mean that the first route is the counter to the second route?
If that is your question, the answer is, sometimes.
Most forms arranged this way don't perform nicely as a solo form. The only exception that I know of is san tsai jian. A famous straight sword form.

There are several empty hand forms that follow this logic too.
-chu ji chuen
-zhong ji chuen
-shaolin 18 movement stick

I'm sure there are more.

But I think that it isn't a good way to arrange the forms as you would have to spend half the form backing up. So the sword form is good because of the circular walking.

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

yu shan
How's it going up there? Hopefully I'll be getting back up into those TN mountains soon. Leroy's new school Grand Opening is coming up. Hey, at my age I'll be looking for a nap long before the halfway point of 5th Form :D "My Shrfu teaches me real Mantis Gong Fu, this in turn helps me with my old WL stuff" - you're not saying that Wah Lum isn't "real" are you? "I`m new here, so try not to bash me right off. I respect everyone" - it would be easier if you didn't post veiled insults. Oh, and I do know why DW is gone from WL.

18Elders
I'm digging, give me some time. I believe the other 2 forms are there but held very close.

Flem
"it is interesting that you guys who didn't learn application all seem to be together" I think they were all together before leaving Wah Lum. It's possible AD is the common denominator and his separation probably contributed to their problems. What I wonder is didn't they get apps under AD? It's my understanding that he knows his stuff.

Jack Squat
"Saint Hands is a.k.a. So Lo Sow" - Is this certain or just a guess? Are you in or out (fo Wah Lum) or don't want to say?

Tainan Mantis
Once again you're a wealth of knowledge. Whatever I find out that I'm allowed to share will hopefully fill in some of the areas in question. And you and Yu Shan did have the same teacher. I heard stories like that from multiple people but always talking about the same teacher, AD.

Joe Mantis
Just a guess but it seems to me that the lower level forms are Wah Lum (meaning a mix). This is the public Wah Lum, the stuff anyone can sign up and learn. The pure forms (Tom Toy and Jut Sow) are at the high levels and you have to survive the lower levels to get them. I've heard from ex-Wah Lum people that they thought that too but now believe nobody ever gets there. They base this on the fact that they never got there and don't know anyone who did. I'll bet that anyone who actually got there isn't going to tell you they did so I still believe it's possible. If other systems are structured different and teach Bung Bo at a lower level then great. If you know Lan Jeet, open a school and teach it as the first form when everyone else teaches it as advanced then fine. Others have a progression and, for whatever reasons, put forms on differing levels. We have a lot of students that know Lan Jeet yet are nowhere near Bung Bo in the curriculum.

[Joe Mantis]

Tainan

I'm familiar with Chu ji Chuen. I understand that the 1st route counters the 2nd etc.

How about entire forms? When you say a form "goes nicely with (another form)" does this mean that the two forms are counters or can be combined for a two person set?

Thanks again.

[flem]

hua li laoshi

AD knows his stuff, there is no doubt about that. i cannot see him as the common denominator for several reasons. 1st that doesn't explain leroy or the guy in pasco co., they were both from AD. 2nd, the above were in WL long after AD left. 3rd, i think AD left for other, unrelated reasons, perhaps along the lines of DW!

yu shan

you said that it is character that is common to those who left WL. what do you define as character? hiding behind mundane questions that are worded to imply that WL shafted you, and that those who have and are still in it are getting ripped off, or no, i am sorry, not getting the whole enchilada.
as i implied before, it's a good thing wong long didn't have your spoon feed me mentality or Pm wouldn't exist at all.

[18elders]

AD got kicked out by master chan, i was there the day he did it.
It wasn't along the same lines as DW. He was given many chances but he blew it although i think he wanted to leave anyway.

AD knows his stuff, he is a good MA, we have talked about apps and he also did not learn many from CP. He has brought Li en jiu over a few times to try and learn from him. He has also learned a bit from Master Shr.

Flem- the guy in Pasco is Bruce cohen , we all came from the same school.

[mantis108]

Hi Yu Shan,

Thank you. :)

Tainan Mantis,

"For #12 I believe you are thinking of Hsiao Hu Yen. Little tiger sparrow. There are 3 forms in this series.
I believe the name comes from a quote from Kung Ming in battle of the three kingdoms."

This is very interesting. The 3 forms' (Hsiao Hu Yen and ...?) names are from a quote? Would you happen to know which one? I have copy of Romance of the 3 Kingdoms. Love to find out, thanks. BTW, IMHO Hsiao Hu Yen (Tiger roars swallow which I have seen a version of it) seems to be in 7* as Sui Fu Ngan (Small Tiger Goose?) . Knowing the Chinese alway have mixed up names with different accents, what would your take on this?

Mantis108

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

And Bruce, Leroy and Terry Bryant are the only ones left in WL that came from there. All I was pointing out was the small circle of friends/KF brothers centered around AD. Yu Shan, Pong Lai, Tainan Mantis, 18 Elders. Flem thought it strange that you all came from WL and ended up together but like I said, you all have a common point. I'm not trying to make anything out of it.

Joe Mantis
I had similar thoughts recently about forms complimenting each other such as one being the the other half of another. I haven't heard of anyone having a concrete example of this though.

[Joe Mantis]

Hua Lin:

Do you know or find out if Lan Jeet called Lan Jeet in WL or is there another name?
Like Big Mantis is called for Beng bu. Thanks
The form Chu ji chuen is an example that Tainan gave and its the only one of which I am familar. (about forms complimenting each other).

p.s. I too have heard of Saint hands as So Low Sow, never seen it though.

[flem]

18elders

i think getting kicked out of WL is similar to the c.i.a.- no one "quits" the latter.

[yu shan]

Hua Lin

Mountain`s are too cold right now buddy. I hope Leroy`s Opening will be a Great succes He is a breath of fresh air for WL. And that`s a compliment OK.
Wah Lum is REAL, I will always hold it in high regards.
I will try to come across in a LiL more tactful way.

Flem

My man, you sound very hostile today, you cut to the bone. peace

[Tainan Mantis]

Joe Mantis,

"This form goes nicely with that form..."
I'll give an extreme example of the opposite.

This form doesn't go nicely with that form.
Some schools have a strange mix of styles which they say is good for making a well rounded MArtist.
The strangest example would be a Tang So Do school that teaches Taiji.
After working so hard to get the Tang So Do power and flavor in your exercises the teacher says," Now we must balance the hard with the soft. So here is our Taiji form..."

If all the different styles have a certain way to do things and yet you learn several in 5-10 years time how can you be expected to master any of them?
I can't, although some say it can be done. I'll leave that debate for others.

When 2 forms go together well I mean that they are composed of the very same theory, style and power generation.

So if you learn the complete set of cha chuei one and 2 person. As soon as you learn 18 elders you'll feel this is a good fit or a compliment to the knowledge. You would have a different feeling if after learning cha chuei your teacher said," And now we will learn bagua so that you can walk in circles."

By researching styles from Ching or Ming dynasty we find that each style had its own flavor. So the 3 PM forms make a good system. Later other forms were added that are similar in style, such as dzai yao.

Baji's 3-4 forms are all similar in style.

10-12 routes of tan tuei

10 forms of cha chuen

3 forms of tong bei

Chu ji chuen combines eagle claw, PM and baji. The techniques taken from each style combine well together. This form makes it possile to get a good understanding of how TCMA are taught in a very short period.
-solo form
-partner form
-3 drills of 8 techniques make it a 24 movement form
-Martial sonnet. 2 syllables to be shouted out by each person for every technique as they do partner.

Mantis108,

tiger swallow forms come in small medium and large. All different, but similar in style. They are a melding of long fist and PM.
This is actually a new name for them although I haven't found who created these last 2 forms. The first one was taught at the big MA school in China before WW2. I think it was Zhong Yang Guo Shu Guan. The original name of the form had same sound, but meant roaring tiger swallow.

For HK7* I believe you are thinking of Fei Yen Zhang-flying sparrow(or goose?) palm. No relation.

Romance of the Three Kingdoms.
I'm still looking for Yen Ching in the Water Margin book. I'm now past the 1000 page mark, hope to find him soon.
In Romance.. They say if so and so gets so and so it would be like adding wings to a tiger. Sorry that is all I can remember.

Su Yu Zhang's student published a book with this form. Apparantly Wang Lang said this quote when referring to the techniques in this form(unlikely). Although it is possible the creator of the form did think of the quote. One of those things we can only speculate on. But the form is one of the nicest taught by Wang Song Ting.

[flem]

tainan

don't know alot about history, atleast not compared to you but the tiger with wings philosophy has also been used in tai chi- referring to learning chi kung along with the other sets

[Tainan Mantis]

Flem,
I didn't know that.
These Tiger swallow forms actually look like a kind of tiger style with many jumps like a flying sparrow.

[Joe Mantis]

Tainan Mantis

It makes sense now. Excellent example of TSD and Taiji.
thanks.



Hua Lin:

I agree with different schools teaching having their own idea of advanced and basic sets. What is taught earlier at one school may be taught later at another. It is neither right nor wrong of course, rather I believe a matter of emphasis on what the teacher wants the students to learn.
you mentioned that a lot of students know Lan Jeet. I'm interested to know if that is what it's called in WL or is it known by a different name? I've seen other styles do this with forms. ie: Southern Crane set one style calls it Crane another Sil Lum 6. Of course Big Mantis - Beng Bu, or Outer Tiger - Tiger Crane (hung ga).
thanks.

[Joe Mantis]

Flem:

16 hands- the two scoops then chow choy, move to bean choy.

I've been told that the scoop is for an opponents leg. Then the chow choy is to the groin.
Is this what you were taught.

You were right in saying that it seems that you were giving out a lot of apps. the reason I don't is because I wasn't taught many at all. AND the ones I did were veryt simplistic and I believe unrealistic. So I'm sharing out of ignorance.
Thanks for your understanding.

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

Joe Mantis
The Lan Jeet (that's what we call it) we have currently came from Zhang Bing Dao. I know of at least 2 groups that learned it in China but it's not complete. It spread from there. I have not seen it on the curriculum but I believe it's at a higher level. Tainan mentioned reading or hearing the Master Chan performed it when he first came to the US so Wah Lum has it but I don't know whether it's the same or not. I'm surprised it was allowed to spread here, I don't know who was teaching it but quite a few seem to know it.

Currently (and as far back as I can remember) we do not scoop with the Chow Choy. We block straight up clearing the arms to make way for the uppercut. With the opponents guard high you immediately follow with Bean Choy.

Yu Shan
Leroy is a good guy, he works hard. I've seen him go from so-so to real good. Sorry if I was a little tense, been having a hard time at work and that's where I post from so the tension leaks over to here.

Tainan, Flem
I've heard mention of a form called Swallow but never actually saw it (unless I did but didn't know what it was). At first I thought Richard Allen was being his usual crude self but then I discovered it was a real form. You guy's have an idea which one it is?

[Young Mantis]

Tainan, Mantis108,

Jumping into this discussion a little bit.

"For HK7* I believe you are thinking of Fei Yen Zhang-flying sparrow(or goose?) palm. No relation. "

When speaking of HK7*, I think it would be more accurate to specify the Wong Hon Fun line or the Chiu Chi Man line since they are both HK7* but quite different in curriculum and flavor.

I have heard that the CCM line has the "Siu Fu Yin" - Small Tiger Swallow form and those in that that series which the WHF line does not. There is another form called "Fei Ngang Jeung" - Flying Geese Palm which I believe is in both lineages although I have not seen anyone in the CCM perform this set and don't know if they are the same.

YM

[flem]

joe mantis

i am glad to receive a kind response, except for hua lin laoshi i was about to call it quits, after all, as i said before i really only began to speak because of a comment i felt i needed to address.
the possibilities in this forum are awesome, if the clowns trying to make others look foolish instead of share would go thier own way.
i wish that i had such a place years ago when i felt as you do now. i do not try to think of why master chan showed me what he did(if as others say i am the only one [which i do not believe]),in any case, perhaps he saw a willingness on my part to explore my stuff. but none of that matters.

all techniques- i could not have said it better than mimi(i think) in the current KF online article, and that is that the techniques take on meaning equivelent to both ones experience level as well as their ability to open their mind.

16 hands- i never learned that application for the moves you said, but i can understand how it was arrived at. since the scoop is low and the twist step is employed it seems logical, and perhaps it is, but i feel that would only be effective for an opponent that is either timid or of little experience
the application that i was taught uses your left upward block against the opponents right punch, the chow choy is delivered under their chin. immediately following you step through(behind) the opponent having grabbed their arm after the block, now their arm is behind them in chin na. i have found that the scoops, though long, are most effective at closer distances, you just have to forget about the hand and use the whole arm.
before the pong lai group start typing furiously, i must restate that that is the app i learned, an opponent with experience is going to follow your energy not allowing you behind them. also, i believe that the transitional movement between chow choy and bean choy demonstrate that it is a hand defense, as the chow choy becomes a deflecting block utilizing the forearm. again, depending on your opponents ability, their right hand could disengage from your block and attack hence the forearm block, your empty left hand that trails the bean choy can be used to parry an attack from his left hand making room for your bean choy(safely inside their guard)
what do you do with the punch at sky(for lack of a better name) after the series you mentioned?

[Jack Squat]

Flem-

Nice App. I wasn't taught that.

Here's my take on your question-

The move is called "Soon Teen Pow Choy" (pierce the sky punch). Your larger opponent is attempting to "bum rush"/ tackle you. You slightly retreat into the squatting type stance and place your hand (left) on his chest as a "feeler" or even better to grab his shirt as you launch him with the straight up punch under the chin. If he is lucky or skilled and dodges, you are still holding him and then come down with the next move, the elbow to the spine (or could be a forearm smash to kidney if they're bent over enough and at an angle). ("Mo Chung Da Fu"-Mo Chung Strikes the Tiger).

Anyone else have a different app? I would love to hear any of the Pong Lai guys interpretation of that sequence, as I find their app's ARE AWESOME. (I'm not a Pong Lai, but have spent a little time at their school in seminars). Great Mantis- usage oriented instruction. Every WL'er owes it to themselves to pay a visit, even if it must be incognito. Yu Shan said it well....I too have had my eyes opened.....I feel like I took the red pill (or whatever color pill it was in the Matrix). Dorothy definately ain't in Kansas anymore.......

Hao lin-
No longer in WL (I left way before I met the Pong Lai guys, if anyone was wondering) although still have friends who are still there. I love the system (yes, it's REAL) just not the game.

If the low scoop is now out of Little Mantis, how do you transition into the Chow Choy/Bean Choy's? Maybe it's now done like in 36 Hands?

Jack

[Joe Mantis]

Flem

The punch to the Sky- I don't know. I was never taught.
I suppose it may be the finishing move after the bean choy. This goes right to the chin.

[Joe Mantis]

Flem:

How about 1st form? The beginning where one sweeps aside with hands and then do mantis hands?

[18elders]

16 hands- punch to the sky

this is the app that a sifu said CP told him.
After the punch to the sky(to their chin), press with your rt. shoulder and come down with your right elbow to their collar bone or top of chest. I would assume you are stepping into them at the same time, not the exact move as the single set.

Little open gate-
at the end of the first run after the last spear hand, then hook, when you change direction did you learn the next move as a hook by your left foot or as a grab?

[Joe Mantis]

18 Elders

i learned it as a grab.

Everyone:

in little open gate: are the spear hands maybe open hand gwa choys instead. I've seen this move in other mantis styles?

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

Chow Choy/Bean Choy is a good attack sequence. Sure it can be a block/attack but I don't think you need to wait for a punch. The Chow Choy block can be applied to any fighting position with the hands up. Besides, whether the uppercut lands or not you have their guard up high so you follow by attacking low with the Bean Choy. In 16 Hands you step in blocking (with left) and pinning the arm while driving the fist straight up to the chin. Now grab what you can (left hand) pulling down and across, dropping and striking (we learn backfist but elbow will work) to available target (head, neck, collarbone or arm). I like yanking the arm out and smashing it. There are other scenerios for that sequence, like a 2nd attacker. It also depends on size of opponent. Anyone ever think about stepping in real low/left palm to solar plexus/right grab to groin/step up right hand rising (punch the sky) taking him off his feet/drop him following through with downward strike (elbow or fist)?

Jack Squat
You mean the Chow Choy/Bean Choy in 16 Hands, not Little Mantis. Did you learn the scoop with the Chow Choy in 8 Basic Punches? Yes it is like in 36 Hands. We follow straight up blocking high. Instead of going 90 degrees into Bean Choy go straight ahead into Bean Choy. We do it this way in the 8 Basic Punches line drill too.

Joe Mantis
I have multiple apps for the begining of 1st Form as well.

18 Elders
I like my apps better. :) I don't see much power in bringing the elbow down on a standing opponent. In Little Open Gate I learned grab. What will a hook accomplish here that a grab can't do?

[seung ga faat]

Young Mantis, Chiu Chi Man lineage has as Sui fu ngoh (small tiger goose) and Dai fu ngoh (Large tiger goose). The swallow form is Yin ji chuen lum kuen ( swallow penetrates the woods).
Yin Ji was known rolling , leaking and rushing.
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[flem]

soon teen pow choy/punch at sky

i also punch to the chin, but i believe the intial move to arrive there is to break out of a grab. as your arm twists to get free of the grab, your elbow follows the rool and ends up on top of their forearm, together with the step and closing of the elbow into your body your arm is free. then you are along side of your opponent clear for the removal of their head.

joe mantis

spear hand-i don't think so. i have learned your technique elsewhere. in any case, i would train iron palm before using it.
1st form, similar to end of 2nd, but in this case it works to oppose the next technique, and reapply.

18elders

1st as ahook, then it changed to a grab

everyone- THIS IS HOW THIS FORUM SHOULD RUN!

[mantis108]

Hi Tainan,

Thanks for the info. Very interersting indeed. I believe both Young Mantis and Seung Ga Faat have addressed my understanding of the "Tiger Swallow".

I also find your defination/understanding of pairing of forms similar to mine. :) BTW, I posted a question about the drill (Chi Sao?) that you mentioned on a different thread on the TJPM forum. Please check it out.

Hi Young Mantis,

Good points. Thanks

Hi Seung Ga Faat,

Thanks. That's what I thought.

Mantis108

[Young Mantis]

Seung Ga Faat,

Thanks for your info on the Tiger Geese forms. Again, I don't know much of the CCM lineage except for what I am learning online.

I had not heard of "Yin Ji Chuen Lum Kuen" before this discussion. You sound like you are attributing this form to a person named "Yin Ji" and that this person is known for rolling, leaking, and rushing techniques. Is this supposed to be the same person as "Yin Ching" from the 18 Styles Poem and also the person attributed to "Yin Ching Dahn Doe"? or is it a different person?

I thought it was just a poetic imagery of the flavor of the form, like a swallow swooping through a forest.

Thanks,

YM

[Jack Squat]

Hua Lin-

You are right. I meant the Chow Choy/Bean Choy in 16 Hands, not Little Mantis. I too take advantage of downtime at work to surf the net and occasionally get distracted. My mistake.

Interesting on the change in the Basic Punches line drill. After the Chow Choy/Bean Choy, do you then step 90 degrees to the left to get back into the pattern for the high circle punch?

Also, I learned the third kick in Little Mantis, but saw others who only teach the two kicks.

Here's one for you or Flem-how about the scoop/spear hands in LOG that you and Joe Mantis were discussing? I always thought that such a finger strike was too advanced for a lower form (not enough time for beginners to strengthen the fingers). That segment also contains the scooping blocks. Ideas on app's?

Flem- I agree with you about the moves that seem to be long range but are actually aren't. You see that all the time in longfist, 10/12 tan tui, etc. Did you have any experience in other styles?

Jack

[SaMantis]

Hi, Jack -- hope you don't mind if I jump in on the thread here.

When I started learning LOG early in my training it was clear that many of the moves were different from the basic movements in other exercises and forms. Especially the scoop/spear hand moves, grab/turn, the three double-hand strikes at the middle of the form and the elbow strikes. LOG is the first time new students do these moves. It always seemed like a preview of things to come.

I certainly couldn't do an effective spear hand then. But thinking about it, there can be other apps to the scoop/spear hand movement. The scoop is very wide and travels inside-to-outside; IMO this could be used at close/medium range to break out of an opponent's grab. As the opponent's grip is broken the left hand comes up in guard position; it can also grasp the opponent's wrist and hold tight as the scooping hand comes up and over the opponent's arm. You step forward at the same time and this locks the opponent's arm under your right arm; left hand spears forward into his throat.

Or, instead of a direct spear to the throat, maybe thrust the left arm beside the neck, putting you in position to grasp the back of his head and then work a vicious app of your own design (insert vicious app here).

I could be wrong ... I'm doing most of the movement in my head instead of against a real person. Hope it makes sense to you all.

Sam

[spiralstair]

Many of the movements that are expressed in the solo forms as 'long', are applied as short. One trains 'long' to develop the ability to transfer the power to the end of the limbs. This develops quite a bit of 'pop' in the motion and gives the CMA a lot of their charecteristic flavor. Long power when applied short has a strong jolting effect on the recipient.
Applied in the LOG sequence this manner of thinking turns the spear hand after the scoop into a 'shoulder stroke' where the attacker really drives their shoulder foward as in the solo form.The scooping hand turns over and may trap the opponents arm(are you inside or outside their foward shoulder?) or press against their torso/head to anchor them for your stroke.
None of this works in the 'research' situation unless both partners break out of the 'one step' mind set and try many different attacks, from differing angles, all applied with 'intent'. Then you have a chance to really examine your form and learn to adjust it to fit the situation. Self-motivation(doesn't come from a teacher)is required along with a partner who is willing to undergo some pain.

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

Jack Squat
The line drill of 8 Basic Punches moves in a straight line, no 90 deg. turns. You need to break away from the single spot pattern. In the single spot drill you have Ping Choy (R)/Gwa Choy (R)/Chow Choy (R)/Bean Choy (R). In the line drill you have Ping Choy (R)/Gwa Choy (R)/Chow Choy (L)/Bean Choy (L). Start with reverse punch and step in for Gwa Choy.

There are some pretty advanced (and slick) moves in some of the lower level material (see my post on 16 Hands throw). The spear hand in LOG can thrust to the throat or back hand to collarbone. Either way it's all the leverage that's needed to drop opponent on back of head. I don't teach that stuff to beginners because they need to focus on blocking, punching and moving. Besides, you can do some real damage with this move and the 16 Hands example. And I don't teach intermediate or advanced students so right now it's all just in my head. Of course a lot of Wah Lum students read these posts so I guess they know them now.:)

Also, on the long range moves you have to keep in mind that sometimes the technique is executed BEFORE the final position. If you don't know the app then you tend to look at the final position as the focus of the technique. What I like is that there are generally multiple apps for each move ranging from basic to advanced. You teach beginners the basic app and later on show the the advanced apps.

[Joe Mantis]

Hua Lin:

Good point regarding posture and timing of applications.
You're right, a lot of people focus on the end movement. Often times this is the follow through.

[Jack Squat]

Spiralstair-

Your posted app has a nice taiqi flair (as all good mantis should). Although I use the shoulder stroke app for other moves, never thought of it for that sequence (I was taught to do the finger strikes in a very linear manner, not in a circular, spreading motion. Don't get me wrong-I also feel that the movements of a form are simply a map and not the territory; you often use subtle adaptations in application. I just never thought of spreading/shoulder stroke for that sequence-thanks!)

Hua Lin-

Good info! How about these:

Use the finger strikes to the armpit instead of the throat (potentially deadly dim mak point- you newbies out there please don't actually strike your partners with this!) The "blocking" hand is actually grabbing the opponents wrist and pulling his arm towards you as you thrust the fingers into the pit (ouch!)

Or following the concept of what Spiralstair said (sort of), slip the "spearhand in under the opponents chin to the neck and the "blocking" hand is actually grabbing the opponents hair and pulling his head down into a choke/neck break (your arm presses his neck) (double ouch).

Or this:
After the second finger strike, your right hand ends up inbetween opponents head and left shoulder, your left hand holds his left wrist (works best if opponents arm (and your left arm) is above your right arm, unlike in the form-subtle adaptation). Now do the next move-the circular low mantis hook into pok ma.

I also like what Hua Lin and Joe Mantis said about the open palm gwa choys-in application very fast, very powerful.

Keep 'em coming!

Jack

[seung ga faat]

Young Mantis and 108,
Ying Ching and Yin Ji are not the same person. (Of course I will check my notes and get back to you with more specific info)
Ying Ching was both a knivesman and good at throwing and Yin Ji was noted for rolling leaking and gate rushing. The Yin Ji form does just that . Maybe the grove or wood represents the low gates and legs. Sometimes leg training is called post or stake training.
Please, excuse me if I don't respond quickly. I have limited access to a computer since I sort of lost mine.
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[Young Mantis]

SGF,

OK, I was just checking. I have not heard of a "Yin Ji" associated with PM and the only person I remember from the 18 Styles Poem as being attributed with rolling and leaking skills is Tahm Fong.

YM

[flem]

LOG

i think the true intent is a strike under the jaw(behind chin) and that is why it is thrown on the upward angle. as for finger strength, not much is needed if soft targets are hit, so accuracy is of prime importance. i used to practice accuracy with a piece of plywood that i cut holes in, 2 for eyes, 1 for hollow of throat, slit for four fingers cut up and down represented xyphoid process. i was enthused with the results for about two weeks until i ripped my middle finger nail in half, all the way down. i later(much) found that practicing forms actually made me accurate. i hung a bunch of tennis balls from strings in my shed to practice gim thrusts, i found that i already was able to nail them at will, having never actually poked at a target before.

spiral stair

the shoulder stroke is awesome, coupled with hand traps as they are in the form makes the head/neck/face a target, besides the body.

jack squat

i began in shorin ryu karate when i was a kid. later i studied northern shaolin, tae kwan do, and tai chi. plus the minor experiences that occasionally come by way of seminars.
LOG- at long range for defense against kick, epecially with a quick step or change(bum bo), hands at close range but the scoop is small and coiling, like a snake, and as someone else said, i think hua lin, the strike arrives long before completion. by the way, if you're worried about fingers, or even accuracy, then punch instead, using the rest of the app.

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

Flem
I agree the intent is the spear hand under the jaw but even if they block it they're still going down. Once you scoop the leg it's hooked over your shoulder. Scooping hand comes down to grab, pin or clear opponents arm making way for spear hand. Stepping in and striking (punch or a push) sends him backwards and down (remember leg over shoulder?). I can see following with a groin punch.

Jack Squat
Armpit strikes are good. Good target for Taam How Tui, especially after trapping the arm.

Oops. Time to stop talking and start doing.

[SaMantis]

Wow -- this one LOG move is a lot more wicked than I 1st thought!

spiral stair -- thanks for clarifying the close-range app. When thinking about it I saw the scoop hand as being outside the forward shoulder, but as you said I won't know if it's effective unless I try it on a training partner. :)

[flem]

since we're discussing LOG, what about the three repeated backfists? i find them best used to circle over the opponents two arms, such as a double shirt grab

[18elders]

same moves as you described with the block trap leg, lift leg as you step in deep and the spear hand cuts across their chest at an angle for a takedown.

[seung ga faat]

Young Mantis,
I stand corrected. Yin ji (swallow fist skill) is a product of Tang Fung aka; Tan Fong aka: Tam Fong. The skill mimics the movements of the swallow in flight: rolling, diving.....
Yin Ji chuen lum kuen makes use of:
1.Hyuen sau- circle hand
2.Bihn sau- whip hand
3.Gwan sau- roll hand
These skills open the form much like Daan chop fa kuen( the versions contained in Cheung,Sifu Kuen po).
The wood represents many thing including Lower Gates and the small forest.
Again Please excuse my error. I often mistake and confuse the names in chinese. Which is why I checked my notes.
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[Hua Lin Laoshi]

SaMantis
See, and everyone's so quick to learn the next form they don't realize what they already know.

Flem
Are you talking about the double Gwa Choys? I see the 3 double Gwa Choys as beating down the door.

18Elders
That's what I was getting at, pick up the leg and knock them down.

seung ga faat
So how many "swallow" forms are there? We have one in Wah Lum although I haven't seen it yet. At least know I know the attributes of the form. Thanks.

[Young Mantis]

SGF,

Thanks for the clarification. I had not heard of Tahm Fong's skills as being likened to "Yin Ji" or swallows but it sounds interesting.

The form sounds very interesting from your descriptions.

YM

[NorthernMantis]

Pretty cool app. with the foot being caught on the shoulder Hua Lin.I did not notice that I would do that unintentionally untill I read it.

To tell the truth I was a little frustrated with the technique itself because the foot kept sliding down and hooking onto my shoulder when I would demontrate it to a younger kung fu brothwer of mines:D. Silly me:rolleyes: .

It gives you a good advantage since you can advance forward while the foot is stuck and the opponents balance is shaken.With no root the person won't be able to generate power unless he/she wants to sacrifice balance abnd fall on the ground.

[NorthernMantis]

since we're discussing LOG, what about the three repeated backfists?

Flem-

If you mean the three rolling backfists in little open gate they're used as blocks for kicks to the mid section.I was taught to use them as a quick block for long range kicks (bringning your hands down simutaneously leaves your face open for attack) while keeping your distance.

[flem]

hua lin laoshi

your LOG tech is good unless the opponents intent was to fake the straight kick and finish with cut eyebrow. i have defended this tech like i said by taking a small hop foreward on the supporting leg which enabled me to get enough bend in my knee to put power in the cut eyebrow. other counters are a scissor take down and with the small hop- an eye gough.

northern mantis

i see what you're saying, the tech is really a cross block that you move through, but you better be ready to adapt the hands to another line because your opponent is likely covered high and those punches aren't the pierce anything type

[yu shan]

LOG-Three continuous backfist

Flem is right on about the fake, if he blocks the first kick there is nothing there to cover the aerial. Maybe , try as rapid circular backfists to face and collerbone area, applied with great physical force.

[yu shan]

LOG- Hook or grab!
After the spear hand to (soft area) hook low or maybe low? Turn left-side grab or hook? I learned first as mantis hook then in later years I was shown as grab. Also, not only as a hook but a double hook? (with a pause) Can someone help me with this app.? The end of LOG, and 16 Hands to me has many apps. Simple forms yet educating. I would like to share what I think, but it might take a few days. Thanks everyone, the US has Great talent!

[18elders]

3 rolling backfists-
wouldn't use it as you said, think of your body position at the time, wouldn't need commit both your hands to block a kick.

Use it as an attack, moving forward with each backfist , kind of like fan cha.
The arms are long, moving fast with rolling shoulder movement and of course the waist fa jing.

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

Yu Shan, 18Elders
That was my intent, busting through his defenses (beating down the door) and attacking face, collarbone and/or shoulders.

Flem
I wasn't waiting for a kick. This tech follows a successful block or initiates the exchange. It's a run him down barrage of Gwa Choys.

In general I don't like having both arms up or down at the same time.

[18elders]

are you going to go to Nick's tournament in april?

[MightyB]

HK 7* has Siu Fu Yin (small tiger swallow). I don't know if it has a large tiger swallow form.

[MightyB]

WHF HK 7* has Siu Fu Yin. This is what I meant by HK 7* has Siu Fu Yin.

[seung ga faat]

YM,
Thank's for keeping me on point.
Instead of just giving you a flavor reference form(daan chop fa) here are the opening moves:
1. gung sek/ngau lau daan jeung
2. fu ngoh bo
3. gung sek/ faan jeung
4.wah sek/bihn jeung

Hua Lin Loashi,
I only know of the one: Yin Ji Chuen Lum. :)
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[NorthernMantis]

18 elders-

That's another way of looking at it, yes, but I didn't meant in using those three in reptition.It has come quite handy once in a while.

I might go to the Nick Scrima tournamnet but the only problem right now is trnasportation.

[yu shan]

18 Elders/rolling backfists!

Your rolling of the shoulder coupled with waist Fa Jing adds alot of spice to this attack.

Hua Lin

Beat down the door and run him down, mantis does attack. Your alright man. I have a funny story about an aggressive mantis.

Northern Mantis

The R. backfst is powerful but I`d only try one or two followed quickly with something down low, sweep,or shoot a take down, what do you think?

Flem

Woops! Made a mistake on the fake/cuteyebrow,I typed in aerial,I know what you meant, just in a hurry.

[SaMantis]

Northern Mantis,

I'm thinking of going to the tournament also, haven't decided yet.

If you could get to Orlando, you could ride with people from the temple ... but I guess getting there from Miami is the trick. :(

[seung ga faat]

Mighty B,
I know Dai Fu Ngoh(Ngan) And Siu Fu Ngoh(Ngan). The translation for these forms are Large and Small Tiger Wild Goose.Perhaps these are the forms you are looking or refering too. WHF Lineage has a Siu Fu Ngoh(Ngan).I think this may be the form you are talking about.
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[Hua Lin Laoshi]

I'm bringing this thread back to life in the hope that more knowledge about the core NM forms will come to light. Since apps are being discussed in other threads maybe someone will give up some slick apps for one of these forms. I don't know them yet and I don't know how many others here do know them but I'm sure there's quite a bit of interest. I'm especially interested in Baat Jow. Can someone tell me more about this form?

[Jack Squat]

Hao Lin-

I'm also very interested. Unfortunately, I've never seen nor heard of 8 Elbows (besides what I read in this forum). I'll keep my eyes open and report any and all info I can find. In the meantime, maybe any WLers from the Yao Li era may know of it. Are there any of you out there?

Jack

[Jack Squat]

Hua Lin-

Sorry I keep misspelling your name! It won't happen again.

Jack

[Mantis9]

I don't know that this will help or is what your asking about, but here goes.

In my 7* lineage, 8 elbows is a closed door form, which isn't seen much by the younger students. That could be one reason most of you seemed to have heard about it, but not seen it. I don't where it importance is placed in your respective branches and lineages.

I haven't learned 8 elbows myself, but I have drilled some of its techniques. My sifu often drill techniques in form that student is about to learn, to convey the power generation, overall theme, or whatever he deems necessary to understanding the form (also, I believe, he just likes drilling until you can't hold your arms up).

From the drills, I would say cautiously that it is incredibly close quarters, using, of course, a lot of short power. As you could imagine, elbows coming at you are scary. Very very scary.

I hope that helps, though I admit its not much.

[Tainan Mantis]

This is Wang Lang's 3rd and longest form. Consisting of up to 16 roads in some styles (beng bu has 4).
It is broken up into 2, 3 or 4 sections.

It is found in at least the following styles:

-secret door 4 sec.

-plum flower 3-4 sec.

-TJPM 2 sec.

-Wah Lum. Although MC doesn't seem to have taught anyone, but it is possible someone learned from him. Other Wah Lum schools that have no connection to MC teach it privately.
Also Jiang Bing Do has published a detailed book on the form. He may some day teach it to Wah Lum if he hasn't done so already.

-7*. I am a little confused about what happened to this form in HK7*. WHF's students such as Brendan Lai and at least one other WHF student who came to see my teacher in Taiwan have recorded the form as 8 talons(sounds like 8 elbows in Chinese), but a modern HK publication lists the 7* version as "fen shen ba zhou" This is the complete and correct name of the form.
So when it changed and by who I don't know.

[yu shan]

Tainan Mantis
8 elbows consists of 16 roads, that`s alot of applications! Again looking forward to hooking-up in Taiwan, with Pong Lai!