IMA Health and Fittness

[Ka]

How much importance do you Internal teachers place on aerobic fittness?Where does this fit in with qi development combat etc?eg I know many long distance runners who I cannot doubt there cardio vascular fittness but I would not particularly call them Healthy.Any comments

[Prairie]

My teacher doesn't seem to place a lot of emphasis on cardiovascular exercise during class time. We routinely do lines of 'stretch' type kicks which tend to elevate the heart rate. I can't support doing cardiovascular exercise (or pushups, situps, ect...) during class time as I can do that on my own and don't need a teacher for it. (that being said, I never do pushups cuz I hate them)

Forms practice is good for elevating the heart rate too. The first taiji set is done mostly slowly, but when I've finished practicing it once I often am slightly out of breath and my heart is racing. The cannonfist set will definitely get the heart pumping for obvious reasons.

I don't know how any of this works along with qigong.

Oh, and partner practice is great for the heart and lungs too. I don't free spar yet (not with taiji anyway), but an extended session of pushing leaves me a little winded.

Ciao for Now...

[RickMatz]

I've started running.

Best Regards,

Rick Matz

[GLW]

This is a common problem and misconception for internal arts like Taijiquan.

People like Yang Zhenduo, Fu Zhongwen, etc... and Chen family members tell how they trained over and over until they were drenched with sweat for many hours.

Few folks do this.

Very often, Taijiquan classes focus on learning the form and then doing the form...Then push hands.

The aerobic benefit of Taijiquan comes from doing the form for 2 minutes or more...but it is low impact and does not totally stress the body.

You can get this by doing Jiben Gong - Basics, Drills.

In northern styles, this includes doing lines of kicks, punches, etc.... over and over again.

For Taijiquan, this can mean doing kick with heel, brush knee, lower snake body, etc...as lines...the same technique across the room.

This has two benefits. First it works the body aerobically and builds strength and stamina. Second, it isolates those techniques and lets you work on them technique-wise as opposed to trying to get the sinking and mental aspect of the move.

I also know that many Taijiquan teachers in China will put their top level students into things like a Changquan class to build up and get spirit. They figure it is worth the retooling to get Taiji flavor to get the strength, flexibility, and stamina that comes from the other class. There is no reason that a Taijiquan person should get winded going up stairs or be in bad physical shape.

[bamboo_ leaf]

If we are talking about aerobic fitness or fitness in gen. I feel it’s a big mistake to look at what people do and try to judge the amount of effort or energy required to really do it. What appears to be effortless is only achieved after long period of practice.

If by Aerobic you mean the amount of oxygen taking in and used which I would say TC is very good at increasing, then more practice of TC would incress this, others might confuse aerobic with the amount of calories burned while associated with aerobics to me is not the same thing.

The key is to really meet the requirements. The other key I believe is to really have a good idea of what is required to be fit for you and your life style.

The requirements for long distance running, fighting in a ring or mountain climbing are very different.

Having practiced some other CMA before TC and comparing I would say the TC is much harder but not in the same way.

[shaolinboxer]

It seems to me that taiji stimulates that body in such a way that if a reasonable diet is followed, good overall cardiovascular heath is very natural.

However, there seems to be a general plague in the martial arts of fat out of shape instructors.

I have heard instructors say "well, with all of my time teaching I'm getting out of shape".

I cannot begin to describe how ridiculous this sounds to me. Not that everyone has to look like Shi Yan Ming, but I think that the instructors need to set an example in THEIR training so that the student can see the long term effects and goals of their study.

About once or twice a month, a student from another aikido school will come practice at Shin Budo Kai. I often notice that by the end of the first hour, they are dizzy. They often comment "wow, at our dojo all we do is talk compared to this". This, again, makes absolutely no sense to me. Training comes in many forms, but to really train in a martial art requires serious physical commitement. Ofcourse, one can say things like "aikido relies on ki, so physical exertion is not necessary". That's fine, but thinking you can jump into being "effortless" is, IMO, ridiculous. Become a true internal master requires a long transition, marked by intense exhaustive practices.

Ofcourse, as internal practictioners we strive for "effortless power", but it is only through vigorous efforts that we eventually arrive there, and through self discipline that we remain there and continue to grow strong rather than plump.

[Ka]

Thanks for the answers gents,all interesting.What I am looking for is the Balance,I on a daily basis practise zhanzhuang and other meditaions,I also engage in cycling /running and other endurance based sports.I find them totally compatible.Many teacher's seem to disagree with me.I don't see this so called external training as contra to progess in Internal Arts.Any comments.

[Sam Wiley]

I don't see how exercise like you're doing could be detrimental, as long as you don't go to excess with it. But then again, I don't see how you can be excessive about riding a bike.

Anyway, there are ways of practicing your forms that can give you both aerobic and anaerobic exercise. After warming up for a few minutes, you should do your lomg form (or I guess a short form several times in a row, whatever equals about 30 minutes), which will give you a little aerobic workout. Then find some way to raise your heartrate a bit, like jogging in place for a minute or two, and then practice your faster forms, like Pauchui or something like that, for at least 5 minutes. Then walk around for a few minutes while you heartrate lowers, and practice your long form again, slower this time, for more aerobic exercise.

Generally, after qigong, I practice my long form, then some of the fast ones, and then weapons...if I have that much time. That's just Taiji, though. I alternate between three systems, so not every day's practice session is the same. For instance, on some days I focus more on Bagua, so I would practice qigong, then my circular form, then my linear form, and then walk the circle for a while, or maybe practice weapons. The third system I practice has a pretty good mix of aerobic and anaerobic sections between all it's forms, and has some nice qigong interspersed into a few of the forms. And on days when I practice Yang Cheng-fu's form, I have yet another set of fast forms to practice for anaerobic benefit. And if I have the chance, I try to work in any push hands or san shou I can.

[Ka]

Thanks gents,I would like to redirect for a moment if I may,While I don't feel that cardio vascular fittness plays a major part in street combat I do feel it is important in Health and Qi development.Many High level atheletes are often sick and always have trouble with recurring injuries.Do you see this as prime examples of yang excess?Do you feel that they can benefit from IMA training?Or is it purely an example of pushing body limits beyond its capabilities too often?

[Shooter]

Good discussion...

I posted on Earth Dragon's "BREATHING" thread (page-1 of this forum) with some of my own ideas and experiences in regard to performance-based methods of training within the context of internal CMAs. I'm too lazy to write anything on this topic at the moment, but Chi Kung practice does have some very sound methods of increasing one's athletic performance, and resistance to sickness, injuries, etc.

:)

[Water Dragon]

I hate running, so I skip rope. Work the heavy bag pretty hard as well. Cardio was never emphasised. I think it was just assumed that you were smart enough to know. Most CMA guys are well conditioned, but not as well as the western arts. Maybe because we fight differently?

[Sam Wiley]

It's probably a combination of both. Maybe if they practiced the internal arts, their energies would balance out again. But the recurring injuries thing sounds like simply pushing beyond the limits and then not giving themselves enough time to rest and heal.

[Ka]

Following on from this how many of you take your resting Heart rate on a regular basis,And do you feel it is of any importance?