OK FINE! who wants to tell a kf guy about BJJ???

[jon]

This is NOT a troll i repeat this is NOT a troll...
I learn kung fu...
In the interest of wanting to learn a bit more about what seems to be a very popular martial art on these boards im hoping someone will tell me about the art of BJJ.
What does an average class consist of.
What kinds of stratagie do you practice.
Are there any underlying themes to the application.
Are any aspects of combat stressed more highly than others.
I hear a lot about the ranking system in BJJ being very strong can someone tell me some more about that?
What is the history of the art?
Are there any forms practiced.

These are all just general questions, some of them i have an idea of the answer and just want clarification others i have simply no idea.
The only thing i ask is that no one trys to post about how much better it is than other arts. Tell me why it works for you and why you enjoy it.
As i say im not trolling im just generaly interested in finding out a bit more about BJJ as many seem very taken with it.

[Mr. Nemo]

"What does an average class consist of."

My classes start with warmups (running, rolling, shrimping drills, situps, and a variety of other things). Then we drill 2-3 techniques (say, for example, a takedown, a guard pass, and a submission - but the techniques vary from class to class). Then we roll with the gi (uniform), then without. I think this is a pretty standard class setup.

"What kinds of stratagie do you practice."

BJJ seeks to get your opponent on the ground and get him into a submission hold, or get a superior position and strike him.

"Are there any underlying themes to the application."

I can't think of a theme that runs throughout BJJ, but maybe I'm not thinking hard enough.

"Are any aspects of combat stressed more highly than others."

Ground grappling is stressed more than anything else.

"I hear a lot about the ranking system in BJJ being very strong can someone tell me some more about that?"

The belts in BJJ are white, blue, purple, brown, and black. The times it takes to earn them vary. I heard BJ Penn got his black belt in two and a half years, that's the fastest I ever heard of anyone getting a black belt.

"What is the history of the art?"

A Judoka (or Jujitsu stylist, according to some) called Maeda went from Japan to Brazil and taught Judo/Jujitsu to the Gracies. Over the years, the Gracie family changed to art to emphasize ground grappling more.

"Are there any forms practiced?"

No.

"The only thing i ask is that no one trys to post about how much better it is than other arts. Tell me why it works for you and why you enjoy it."

I enjoy it because its fun, I guess. It works for me because it just works, I don't think anyone claims BJJ is ineffective.

[jon]

Thanks a lot for your reply it sounds like a very interesting art.
How long have you trained?

Anyone else want to post there experience please do i would like to hear from as many as possible.

[No_Know]

Hopefully no experience. Relevant to history, There was a national hero who helped a newcommer to the country. The newcommer--an instrucyor taught the hero. The smaller brother of the Hero refined the techniques Older did to suit his smakker frame. Smaler brother Helio? was more technically correct than older (who could get by relying on his limb length and strength).

It seems to be the old stuff from Japan upped with the confidence of and backed by the Pride of the Gracie family back then. And accentuated with the culture of Brazil as to the boa constrictor type style. I saw this in particularlly one of the Gracies and might just associate that attitude to the Art~.

[KnightSabre]

Our classes are similar.

We often roll first for 15 to 20 minutes and then do some drills or learn new techs.
We seperate the days we do gi and no gi.

I like the style for many reasons,
It's the most effective style I've trained in.
I find it allows one alot of freedom in that you develop your own particular style of grappling.
It suits me better,I found that I was more gifted in ground fighting than in striking.
You can beat guys that out weigh you alot(I've done this many times).

I have my blue belt and will be going for my purple this year.

[scotty1]

There's not much BJJ in England. I think, I may be wrong, and if so, can somebody tell me? I think I would use it to get a basic versing in the ground game.

[Nichiren]

I like Nemo's description but don't agree with the belt description. Very few people ever get to the black belt and the purple belt is equal to a black belt in many other MAs. I am only familiar with the Machado and Gracie BJJ but I wouldn't be surprised if there are McBjj out there where you could "buy" a black belt after a couple of years. Stay away from the McBjj...

The difference between grading in BJJ and many other MAs is that it is the instructor that decides when you are ready fo a higher belt. During a training he can just walk up to you with the new belt and congratulate you on jour grading. The training then stops and everybody applauds(a great feeling). If you are a blue belt and can roll with the purple belts, showing the maturity that comes with a higher belt (and of course are able to apply the techniques), than you are ready.

[myosimka]

Very similar to Nemo's description except we alternate gi, no gi nights.

Strategy-Most fights will end on the ground if one guy wants it to go there so take it there and control the situation. I don't agree with the blanket statement that most fights go to the ground that is thrown around so often Seems to me that if neither person want to go down it stays a stand-up game but if either want to go to the ground it seems to happen.

Underlying theme- Mobility. Both physical and mental. The fighter that can change position most quickly/easily has an advantage as does the one who can change attacks/mindsets. If you get in a place where you can't move or you become mentally fixed on one attack, your opponent has the advantage. Maximize your mobility and minimize his.

The belts are few and far between compared to other styles I have seen. As a result a blue belt means alot more (in terms of ability) around the waist of a BJJ students than it does around most other MA students. Same is true of the other ranks as well. BJ Penn in 2.5 years? Wow!! Didn't know his ranking. I do know however that he had a live in instructor and practiced pretty much all day every day. Amazing when you think that in this country there are students that get black belts going 2-3 nights per week for an hour.

I don't think it's so much better than anything else but it is alot of fun. Can practice pretty full out with minimal injuries compared to other styles. And it is an essential part of MA training in my mind. Doesn't have to be BJJ necessarily but one should definitely be familiar with groundwork esp. submissions.

[Tigerstyle]

"Are there any underlying themes to the application?"

I'm not sure if this answers that question, but from what I've learned the importance of positioning is key when using the techniques. When I practice, I am taught to place positioning as a priority over the submissions in most cases.

For example, If I have a chance to take someone's back (get behind them), I might have the option of either going right to a rear choke (if I have surprised the opponent) or securing the back position by hooking my legs around him and try to work the choke later.

The trade off of losing the element of surprise would be having a position of advantage that increases my options (work for the choke, or even strikes/another submission) while reducing the risk of being put in a disadvantage position that I have to fight out of. It usually takes much more energy to break out of a position of disadvantage that it does to hold a position of advantage, which adds efficency/energy conservation to the benefits of positioning.

This emphasis also covers the ability to transition to other positions when needed. Having a good position when applying a submission is usually the difference between a strong opponent bicep curling his way out of an armbar and the same strong opponent tapping faster than someone playing "Track and Field" on Nintendo, because his bicep can't fight someone's entire body.

When people watch a BJJ match (or UFC, Pride, etc. where two BJJ people are involved) and say it's just two guys rolling on the floor with each other, they probably don't notice that what's happening is a battle for position (and/or they hate BJJ/NHB trolls and are bitter ;) ). When it takes a long time, it's usually because both opponents are well versed in ground positioning (or not versed at all :) ) and they know what to expect and how to counter. In most cases, the submission happens when one of them makes a mistake the other is able to capitalize on it.

Heh, maybe I'm wrong though. I'm still new at it :) .

[truewrestler]

I heard BJ Penn got his Black Belt in 4 years. Someone mentionned he didn't go to college but his parents payed for instructors to come and teach(in Hawaii mind you). 4 years of bjj = a black belt degree. Not everyone could do this regardless of having personal instruction. He is an amazing athlete.

I heard that 12 years is the average amout of time to get a black belt without any previous experience. My instructor got his in 6 years, he had previous grappling experience. Just to get a blue belt can take 2 years or more but sometimes only 6 months if you are a quick learner and good athlete.

Belts are based on how good you are. You don't have to memorize katas or the history of your art but rather you need to be proficient in the techniques and be as good as others on that belt level. It is all about how good you are, period. No bought belts here. You progress slowly if you aren't good and quickly if you are.

The philosophy behind BJJ is "Position over Submission" and "Technique over Strength".

[LEGEND]

Truewrestler is rite. BJ PENN got his belt in 4 years...he trained full time and his parent had some $$$. Normal time is 8 years or more...

[DelicateSound]

Bjj is too ground orientated.

Judo is better, nice mix of both, and WAY better principles. No leglocks etc. though, and needs to be supplemented with a striking art.

[Mr. Nemo]

BJ Penn got his blackbelt so fast because he was so talented, anyway, not because he went to a McBJJ school. I understand some McBJJ schools do exist here and there, but they're fairly rare.

[Tigerstyle]

"Judo is better, nice mix of both, and WAY better principles."

DelicateSound,
If you don't mind my asking, could you give examples/explain why Judo has WAY better principles than BJJ? Please don't think this is a troll post. I am interested in both BJJ and Judo (grappling in general, actually) and am just pokin around for more info about them.

Thank you.

[DelicateSound]

TigerStyle - I know you're no troll :)

OK, I am NO EXPERT, but when I started Judo, I went to every Judo, jujitsu, and BJJ class there was.

OK, originally in the "early days", Jujitsu concentrated on strength in their throws. Judo used the idea of Maximum Efficiency, and beat Jujitsu in an official competition held by the Tokyo PD, sometime in the 1800's.

When BJJ was formed it learned a lot of this M.E. stuff (its founder was a Judo man, not JJ) Can't remember his name.

However, it is not fully implemented in modern BJJ. The new stuff that was added by the Gracies was not held up to the M.E. theory like the stuff Kano had created. There are MANY other principles that have been b*stardised, or even lost in the transition to BJJ. Kano's principles are upheld by the Kodokan, and by the many masters of Judo that survive. As a modern style it hasn't been re-evaluated by centuries of masters.

I'm not knocking BJJ, its an OK style. I just prefer Judo. Its more coherant in its form and function. BJJ has a lot of inefficient excess that can cloud the issues.

Sorry if this is vague, or sounds like waffle. I've had little sleep and have exams to revise for!!! :D

If you want TS, i can find some good articles/sites that know more about this than I, and can post you the addresses of them for you.

[Tigerstyle]

DS,
Thanks for the response! I would like it very much if you could post some links to articles or websites on the subject.

You can take your time, no hurry. I can wait 'til after your exams (and some sleep) :)

[Merryprankster]

Tiger;

Good is Good
Bad is Bad
Leverage is Leverage
There is nothing new under the sun, ESPECIALLY when it comes to grappling :)

As far as Judo vs. BJJ being a thing of the "maximum efficiency with minimum effort," I can only offer this: What DelicateSound said is his opinion. He will be unable to demonstrate a valid set of specific incidences that show that the M.E. principle is NOT followed in BJJ, any more than I can demonstrate that it is. All I can tell you is that I've been grappling for several years. ALL grapplers seek the path of least resistance by maximizing the use of large muscles on little ones and through leverage, be they Judoka, wrestlers, BJJ'ers, etc. The game changes as the goal changes and that dictates the difference in strategies and techniques. In short... you become good and efficient at what you practice. Judoka have great throws, and good pins, BJJer's great submissions and ground positioning, wrestlers a phenomenal base, leg attacks and pins. In all instances, one is neither less nor more efficient than the other; it's simply that the game is different.

[DelicateSound]

Originally posted by Merryprankster
What DelicateSound said is his opinion. He will be unable to demonstrate a valid set of specific incidences that show that the M.E. principle is NOT followed in BJJ, any more than I can demonstrate that it is.

MPS - It is JUST my opinion, and as you are obv. a BJJ guy - I mean no offense. :)

As for being unable to prove etc. it's a long time since I've done Judo, but I truly believed it was the best when I studied it, and I'm pretty sure of it now. I'll try and prove you wrong :D

Tigerstyle: I might have a bit of free time to search (I hope). But I can't promise. After all, proving MPS that I am right, won't convince the Board of Examiners for my French A-level that I'm an A-grade student!!! :)

I'll post it on the main board if (when:)) I find it.

[Merryprankster]

No offense taken delicate,

It just smacks of the "style vs. style," debates. Every legitimate art has something to offer if you chase it down. I like Judo myself and wish I knew more of it... but you know what? It feels like wrestling... almost exactly like it, from a principle perspective, hence my assertion of no "best," just "something different."

[DelicateSound]

I wasn't going down the Style V Style route. I hate that.

I agree all MA's have something to offer. BJJ has a lot to offer, it is a very comprehensive art in that it comprises a lot of Judo, Jujitsu and thanks to Royce, some KickBoxing strikes. For me though - it's too muddled!! :)

Judo is a little too much like wrestling and way too sport based. That's why I dropped it, to take up [when I find a good school!!] Tai Chi. I need some internal aspect to my style! :D

I think Judo revolves around "Maximum Efficiency" in a way that most other grappling arts do not. It's not just about muscles and positioning, but about centre of balance, weight shifting, pivoting, angle of force and of resistance. You learn a lot about how too maximise the efficiency of your weight and force against your opponant. It's as much of a science as an art, and has taught me a lot.

As for "best". It was the best for me at the time, and I still think its principles are the best of all the grappling arts. That's cause I like principles. :) If you like swords you take up fencing etc. Just IMHO!

[Merryprankster]

It's not just about muscles and positioning, but about centre of balance, weight shifting, pivoting, angle of force and of resistance. You learn a lot about how too maximise the efficiency of your weight and force against your opponant. It's as much of a science as an art, and has taught me a lot.

Sounds like wrestling, BJJ, etc.

My only point here is that you are going to learn the same sorts of things, with perhaps modifications or adjustments in the other arena-- those judo footsweeps are hard to pull off without the gi! To say nothing of Makikomi type throws, uchimata (must have wizzer grip without gi) and forget the one armed seio-nage...O-soto-gari is next to impossible without clothing as well :)

Please realize I am talking about pulling these throws off against a reasonably skilled opponent. I'm sure that I could do a "no-gi" version of O-soto on a novice.

[DelicateSound]

Originally posted by Merryprankster


Sounds like wrestling, BJJ, etc.

Umm. Maybe. But wrestling etc still concentrates too much on force Vs force IMHO. Using the opponants force against them is a great skill to master.

My only point here is that you are going to learn the same sorts of things, with perhaps modifications or adjustments in the other arena-- those judo footsweeps are hard to pull off without the gi! To say nothing of Makikomi type throws, uchimata (must have wizzer grip without gi) and forget the one armed seio-nage...O-soto-gari is next to impossible without clothing as well :)

Now you're getting technical on me :D From my experience of Judo in Streetfights (shirts as gi's), I've used only a few techniques:

*O-soto-gari: I COMPLETELY disagree with you :). Step thru him with all your weight, pull hard on his right arm to force him onto his right side and instead of a taking a lapel grip, put your arm around his neck. [I smack the guy hard in the carotid at the same time]. Make sure you sweep at the back of the knee and dip your head to add your full weight to the move. He'll hit the dirt and won't get up. IMHO swing a jab first to make him lean backwards before you move in. This'll put his COG somewhere behind him slightly.

*O-goshi: If he's coming for you, its all too easy. Just grip, bend and roll him over into a nice broken pelvis :D

*Tai-Otoshi. A grip is needed, but not a really firm one. Grip his shirt above the elbow joint and roll the wrist and you'll be OK.

*Ko-Uchi-Gare/O-uchi gare: Combine 'em with a knee to the balls first.

*Yoko-Gake: Simple weight shifting. He'll go down like a playground game of "haystacks".

*Soto-Make-Komi: You do have to go to the ground with him, but your weight'll bust a rib, and you are in a good position to get up and run if you like.

*ALSO: Waza-Gatami - straight joint lock. One of my Favourite moves. Has saved my ass a couple of times (once when I was in school in a playground brawl!!!)

BTW: Nice to be able to argue nicely with someone!!:)

[Merryprankster]

Right--shirts as gis!

Nothing wrong with Judo. Love what I've done.

And agin: as long as two factors are involved:

1. Your opponent has next to no prior grappling experience, as I outlined above.
2. Your opponent has an article of clothing that doesn't tear away or stretch a ton or is sheer. IE, a jean jacket is LOVELY, but a surfer's rash guard is NOT so cool.

I would argue that you've never seen high-level wrestling if you think it has more "force on force." Common argument about wrestling and just not true on SO many levels.

All the major and minor hip throws work. No problem. They work no-gi just as well, so O-goshi--no argument.

Ko-Uchi and O-Uchi--hard to do on a good grappler without a good grip because breaking the balance that way is NOT easy without it.... that nice strong push/pull arrangement just isn't there..

Soto Maki-komi is almost impossible without a "gi" on a decent grappler-- you can't bring them round the "heavy" leg without a strong sleeve grip without getting tani-otoshi'd or ura-nage'd.

Tai-Otoshi--murderously difficult on a decent grappler with no gi--the strong sleeve pull is vital for off-balancing to the forward corner so they come over your leg. Without that strong of a grip it is simply not doable to throw somebody with that much distance between you and their body.

Yoko-Gake--same problem--with that much distance between you and the other guy, a strong grip is necessary and hard to get without a "gi" to hold onto.

Please, remember, I'm talking about somebody who's got some stand-up grappling in their background! :) You can make ALL of these work on somebody without that!

[truewrestler]

omg MP, has Rhadi been teaching you all that Japnese??? =)

. The new stuff that was added by the Gracies was not held up to the M.E. theory like the stuff Kano had created. There are MANY other principles that have been b*stardised, or even lost in the transition to BJJ. Kano's principles are upheld by the Kodokan, and by the many masters of Judo that survive. As a modern style it hasn't been re-evaluated by centuries of masters.

I have a headache and MP has some gooood restraint. Don't worry DS; I won't try to cross your bridge

actually i don't think you are a troll, just ignorant

sorry MP for killing any good karma on this thread.

[jon]

Thanks a lot to everyone for telling me more about your art. It really does sound very interesting and if im ever given a chance to get a grounding in it ill jump at the chance. There is not much of it over here in Aus to my knowledge.
On the whole Judo vs BJJ thing. I have great respect for both skills but in all honesty i have a hard time classifying Judo as a martial art so much as a sport. BJJ dispite certainly having a sporting element also contains pure fighting in the true sence of the word. That is no knock on Judo just i dont think comparing them is a worthwhile debate as they have different final results.

[DelicateSound]

Originally posted by Merryprankster
Please, remember, I'm talking about somebody who's got some stand-up grappling in their background! :) You can make ALL of these work on somebody without that!

I suppose. All the times I've fought grapplrs had been with gi's, and all of the above works fine for me.

Any time I've had to use it in the street the opponant [probably] had little or no experience. So I do see your point. However in my experience, a decent rolled grip on a shirt can work OK. Unless it's silk it'll usually hold for long enough to take him off balance. And yes a jean jacket is lovely! :)

*Tai-otoshi: I once used the variation where the arm circles the neck [can't remember the term - sorry]

*Soto-maki-komi: You're right on this. The amount of times I've been countered.... :) Ura-nage is a b!tch.

Like I say I don't have the worlds greatest experience, and this is all IMHO. It's worked for me, I'm sharing my info. That's all. And all the wrestling I've seen has been in MMA tourneys. I wasn't too impressed IMHO :)

Instead of what I've said, what would you do against a grappler on the street? You've got me interested now :D

Truewrestler: Eat sh!t somewhere else OK. I've already stated about 20 times that this is In My Humble Opinion. I understand you have a differing view, and am willing to accept what other people say. Just cause I don't always back down doesn't make me ignorant. I'm entitled to my views as much as you are to your
[very single minded] ones.

You're calling me a troll. A Kung-Fu guy who is having a discussion about Judo [an art he I don't study anymore]. It WAS a nice pleasant discussion. If I wanted to troll I'd say:

"Kodokan Judo is superior. End of story"

I'm not. I'm entering into reasonable discussion. At least I was until you stuck your sh!tty oar in. Unless you want to contribute properly, keep the f*ck away from me and my bridge! :)

[truewrestler]

lol @ Unless you want to contribute properly, keep the f*ck away from me and my bridge!

you just said that bjj sucks...i took offense and apologize for my reaction. Please keep on with the discussion.

[Yung Apprentice]

Didn't Judo spring off of JJJ ? I was told( and probably wrong ) that Judo is like the sport aspect of JJJ.

If ( hypothetically ) a BJJer can't take someone to the
ground, are there any standing techs? "Most fight take to the ground" Although I disagree with this statement, what would one do if fighting multiple enemies? I know the chances of wining are slim with any art, but isn't it kinda pointless to try to takedown one person, if there were more than one attacking? If there are multiple attackers one cannot take to the ground, and fight for position. I'm definately NOT knocking BJJ, I think it's very effective, I'm just curious as to see if there are any standing techs.

[DelicateSound]

Sorry I snapped. Ignorance is just something I hate, thats all. Sorry :) But I never said BJJ sucked. Its good, I just prefer Judo. Although Ralek has made me hate Royce Gracie ETERNALLY :D

YA: Jigoro Kano was a Jujitsu student who created Judo.

Jujitsu - The art of Gentleness.

Judo - The Way of Gentleness.

He added a lot of science and philosophy to JJ in creating Judo and at some point in the 1800's Kodokan Judo defeated JJ in a tournament in Tokyo to decide which art the police would use.

BJJ is pretty different though - and takes a lot from Judo, JJ and even Kickboxing.

All 3 are good styles. I prefer Judo.

[Merryprankster]

DelicateSound;

Judo WILL work on the street--NO PROBLEM! :) But some of the things are just SO hard without the gi, that's all I was pointing out.

Let me put it this way: All other things being equal, if you put a wrestler against a judoka without the gi the judoka will lose, and vice versa when the gi is on. Totally hypothetical, as there is no such thing as "all other things being equal," but you catch my point.

I personally consider the uchi-mata a "wrestler killer," when the gi is being worn, because the wrestlers stance is more crouched over, and that's PERFECT to get loaded and dumped.

Without the gi, judoka tend to be HIGHLY susceptable to leg attacks because they don't see them often and because you can't use that nice grip to stiff arm the opponent.

As far as "what would I do against a grappler?"

I'd poke him in the eyes, knee him in the head on the way in, execute a limb destruction or elbow the base of the neck or spine as I sidestep out of the way... and I would do all of this without attending to my own balance first :)

Ok, SERIOUSLY--Judo and wrestling are kissing cousins and some minor adaptations need to be made to no-gi. Here's the thing: You don't KNOW if the guy that decided to fight you has experience grappling or not... so, your makikomi MIGHT work... your Tani-Otoshi MIGHT work, etc, but there are more adaptable throws that are just as good--IF I were a judoka trying to execute on an opponent w/no good handholds, I would go with the hip throws and their variations, and some of the backwards trips where you are in tight.

This is what the gi allows you to do in judo-- from a DISTANCE, you can control your opponents balance. Without a gi-like article of clothing, you have to shut the space down in order to do the same thing, relying on underhooks and overhooks, etc, and that makes things like O-soto-gari a little harder because at that distance, it's practically a half-hip throw anyway. Or take tai-otoshi--without the balance broken hard to the forward corner getting them to "throw themselves" over your planted leg is really hard... and if you can't do it from a distance, then you'll be in tight, and you won't have the space to break their balance properly... and the backstep you do to execute it will turn it into a hip throw from that range. The bottom line is that wrist control and arm control just aren't good enough to break balance unless you have an unearthly strong grip. Think about trying to do hiza garuma or hirai tsuri komi ashi or de ashi barai (or is it harai)without a good pull from a distance on the sleeves and I think you'll understand.


This means that hip throws, ura-nage, fireman's carry (kata guruma), etc, and a few of the back trips are your best bets--all of them can be executed in the "underhook/overhook," range of grappling. I'd avoid the sacrifice throws, just for the record. Why go down if you don't have to?

And remember Professor Ed Malley's Mantra-- "If at first, you don't succeed...punch him in the face and throw him again."

[DelicateSound]

I totally agree about the advantage of a gi for dist. balance control etc. There is no way anyone could pull of something like de ashi barai without a gi, unless they were Kyozo Mifune!

IMHO, I would use hip throws etc. but I'm best at them anyway. I think if I was fighting a wrestler, I'd just use my Kung Fu. A nice series of hooks and jabs to weaken him, before the kill.......
Sumi-Otoshi might be OK without a gi, as might be Uki-Otoshi. I never really used them much so I can't give evidence. If you're brave, Kani-Basami could work! :D

As for sacrifice throws, I love Tomoe-Nage! And used to be able to pull it off OK. But that was in the Dojo, not on the street.

Yes, judoka do have a hard time against leg attacks and tackles. BTW: You can pull off Kata Guruma?!

If I were to use my Judo now, I'd combine it fully with strikes. A strike on the way in, and one after completion. The first'd disorientate him a little, the latter to make sure he's down!!

[Tigerstyle]

I just wanted to say that I really dig this thread, and the knowledge of Judo that you both seem to have really surprised me :) .

Merryprankster,
I'm gonna have to give the argument to DS, only because his original statement has recently indirectly been proven by Ryu (or Ryu-lek, from the sound of those posts ;) ) on another thread. :)

Actually, I was interested in your post about the different strengths of wrestling, BJJ and Judo in relation to each other. Is it common for people to cross-train in different grappling styles? I hear it sometimes, and the people that I know that do it seem to blend it together nicely. Do you (or anyone here) feel that there are any advantages/disadvantages to that approach? (I know that might just start a big cross-training argument, but this thread has been good so far. I have faith :) )

[Merryprankster]

Tiger,

Judo and BJJ is a very common crosstraining combination, for obvious reasons, but there is a diminishing return. You are better off to spend most of your time throwing if you are interested in Judo comps, and better off to spend your time on the ground if you are interested in BJJ comps. BJJers training wrestling takedowns is also very common. Wrestlers training Judo or BJJ.... not so much, if you are serious about WRESTLING. Catch my meaning? No need to study submissions if your goal in life is to pin somebody. Also, why learn clothing specific throws? You already have a repetoire of no gi throws and attacks that transfer over to gi (underhooks and overhooks always work, clothing or no) If you are interested in competing in MMA type events, then training in submissions is vital to your success if for no other reason than you need to know what they are and where they are coming from (See Royce Gracie vs. Dan Severn).

As far as Ryu, I'm sure he's got some interesting combinations and things to say, but then again, he's better at Judo than I am and has been working for a long time at figuring out how to make judo work from a combatives perspective. And to be honest, I'm not sure there is an argument here (not that you are really implying that there is one). I think there are just some very real differences between gi and no gi grappling and once those are addressed, grappling principles are grappling principles and they work pretty much the same way. A Judoka on an untrained individual on the street is just as dangerous as any wrestler. Probably even more so, because Judoka are at least familiar with submission, and also train to remain standing on most of their throws. If I had to pick one of the styles for self-defense, ie, if I had to choose, I'd pick Judo. It's got enough of everything to be dangerous at any grappling range.

The truth is that I don't know much about the names of these Judo moves. I've been pulling them off a website. I can't even execute most of them! However, I CAN see, because of my grappling experience, what, fundamentally speaking, is required in order to do them... I know where you have to pull, where the weight has to go, etc

Delicate: Yup, I can pull off Kata Guruma. I've used both the knee down variation and the "standard" way. I already knew the knee down, so I gave the standard way a go a few months back. The trick is to get them to commit their weight to the leg you want to attack and pull HARD out, up and away, then DOWN with the sleeve. This pulls them off balance forward very neatly and puts their center of gravity clean over your shoulders.... light as a feather, then dump them whenever you choose :)


Also, you know, I HAVE seen footsweeps work no gi... in fact, it was without upper body contact at all! Rhadi Ferguson vs. Jeff Monson.

Please understand that Rhadi is the current National Judo Champion, so the rest of us might not have that as an option :)

[Tigerstyle]

Merryprankster,
Thanks for the response. It was very educational.

The reason I posted about Ryu was because of a couple of posts he did on the "JF Springer backed out!!!!!" thread where he says Sakuraba is a Judo man that destroyed BJJ (He even used sentence structure and grammar similar to Ralek, lol :) ). I had just read that before responding on this thread and thought it would be a funny coincidence. :)

Couple more questions:

- If you don't mind my asking, what is your training background? (I apologize if you've already posted about it.)

- (I'm assuming you have wrestling and BJJ experience. If not please disregard this one if you like): What do you think about people that get into BJJ and have a prior wrestling background? Are there any signifigant techniques/philosophies/habits that help or hurt them? I have a couple of friends that have done that, and they tell me that they were able to progress faster in the beginning, but they have habits from wrestling that usually cause them to make mistakes against higher ranks.

Some of the specific things they have noted are a tendency to give up their back rather than putting their back on the mat, a reluctance to adopt/improve their guard position (usually due to the first statement, and the shorter time limits in wrestling matches), and that some of their wrestling moves were easier to stop when wearing a gi.

As far as strengths, they said that they were able to takedown people with little difficulty during the sparring/free rolling, and the conditioning from wrestling practices have helped them out in their BJJ classes.

I was curious if this was common for BJJ students with a wrestling background.


Thanks again!


(Just to keep this kung fu related): I like Shuai Chiao. I wish there was some of it here in Vegas.

[Merryprankster]

Tiger,

I have around 5 years of wrestling experience and 2 years of BJJ.

The common wrestling advantages

1. Your base. Sweeping a guy who used to wrestle is hard work. You know how to be an immovable rock and how to catch yourself on the brink of tipping over and you know WHEN to do both. There is one sweep that works more consistantly against wrestlers however---the helicopter sweep. Wrestlers are trained to constantly apply forward pressure....drive drive drive. Well, the helicopter sweep is tailor made for that. Don't ask me to describe it... I'd have to write a page and a half. Horribly easy to execute on somebody with lots of forward pressure though.

2. Your sensitivity. You already know how to move on the ground. Your comprehension and retension is better than most because you aren't mucking about, trying to figure out how to get your arms to do THIS, but your hips and legs to do THAT at the same time.

3. Takedowns. Obviously :)

4. Hard work mindset. Even the laziest wrestler worked harder than most amateur athletes... and I'll take that one to the bank! :) Even if your conditioning is bad, you aren't scared to work hard... you know the conditioning will improve... push push push.


Common disadvantages

1. **** this @#$@$#!#% gi!!! It's like wearing a straightjacket till you get used to it. It doesn't take long :)

2. Guillotine, armbar, triangle. Wrestlers tend to leave their necks sticking out on the shot (guillotine), extend their arms when applying pressure (armbar), and think that one arm in, one arm out in somebody's guard will help them pass (triangle). Quickly remedied when you stick with the game.

3. Giving the back-- I think this is more mindset than "wrestling." I was always a counter wrestler and still am to a great extent... for me the guard was a beautiful, shiny, new toy to play with and I loved it. No problems there. However, if you REALLY like to be super aggressive and bang bang bang forward, the guard doesn't feel like the best place in the world.

That about sums it up, I think. Really though, if you stick with it, all the disadvantages disappear, unless you are REALLY thick headed or just not interested in learning.

[Tigerstyle]

Thanks, Merryprankster, and DelicateSound!

[Brad Souders]

With what i can tell Merryprankster must train with Lloyd because of True's Rhadi comment. So there for their comments on BJJ should be highly considered. BJJ is what you make of it. If you want it to just be straight gi ground work then that is what it will be. you can also transform that BJJ into something more. IMO only really in Brasil is straight BJJ practiced. In the US you have the mixed form of BJJ which throws in all from striking to takedowns to great ground positioning to leglocks. So instead of saying all well all BJJ is is this try mixing it up to your own version of BJJ. Don't jam yourself with names, release yourself technique.

[DelicateSound]

Originally posted by Tigerstyle
Merryprankster,
I'm gonna have to give the argument to DS,

One-nil - I rule :D

Seriously though - its great to be able to discuss something on the forum [esp. grapple-related] without it being trolled. Nice posts everyone! :)