Sparring

[baguatc]

A great thread on the place of sparring in martial arts practice can be found on the xingyi page of Tim Cartmell's Shen Wu discussion board (www.shenwu.com/discus). I've copied part of Mr. Cartmell's response below:

"This is a very interesting topic, the sparring vs. too deadly to spar dichotomy. My students also get into this discussion with practitioners of other arts that believe they are too lethal to spar. I suppose their is no 'answer' short of no holds barred death matches, but it is important to look at the evidence we do have so that students can make an informed decision, especially students that want to prepare themselves for a real and violent confrontation.

I'll preface my comments by saying I have trained all different ways. I've studied traditional styles of martial arts in which all techniques were supposed to be potentially lethal, and which forbade sparring, as well as traditional arts which allowed contact sparring. I've also practiced several combat 'sports.'

One of the most, if not the most important aspect of success in a fight is mindset, next is experience, then physicality, finally specific technique. Without the will to fight, the greatest fighter in the world will lose to the most mediocre fighter. This is a common sense observation. It is extremely difficult (although probably not impossible) to develop a fighting mindset without some experience approximating a real fight. Like the boxers say, everyone has a plan until they get hit. If you have never been hit hard, crushed under someone's weight or been on the receiving end of a painful and unrelenting attack, how do you know how you will react? You may imagine you will respond appropriately and fight back, but you will never know for sure. Sparring will never be as intense as a real fight, but it is the closest approximation you will find within the bounds of relative safety (although you will be injured on occasion, it's an inevitability of learning to fight).

Getting hit, strangled and thrown hard by a determined and resisting opponent will condition your mind and body for the realities of a fight. Taking out your opponent with the initial attack is obviously the ultimate goal of a fight (and learning how to sucker punch is something I believe should be practiced often), but the reality is one punch knockouts almost never occur. When they do, the fighter doing the knocking out is usually always much bigger and stronger than his opponent. Despite the popular 'deadly martial arts' idea that a fight will be over in seconds with the opponent lying unconscious and broken on the floor, fights often go on for minutes, with both fighters injured as third parties pull the fighters apart.

Contact sparring and grappling are also a 'laboratory' for you to experiment with which techniques YOU can actually apply against a resisting opponent. Just because your teacher or classmates can smash bones with a blow doesn't mean you necessarily can. You will never know what you can really do unless you have really done it. You must also practice sparring in all ranges and situations (striking and wrestling both standing and on the ground).

It is not that the techniques in most martial arts won't work, all legitimate styles have potentially useful techniques. The problem is the method of training. Anyone can make a technique work against a non-resisting partner, and, of course, that is how techniques are learned. The actual execution of a technique is the easy part. The hard part is the set up and entry. The method of learning how to successfully set up and enter a technique for real cannot be learned without a non-cooperative, fully resisting partner. Because that is the situation you will be in in a real fight. In a real fight, your opponent will be doing everything he can to stop you from applying your techniques. If your method doesn't take this into account, it is not realistic. The best fighters in the world use relatively simple techniques, most often the same techniques they learned during their first few months of training. The reason they can actually apply these techniques is that they have learned to set them up against trained, resisting opponents. They have confidence because they have been successful for real.

Physicality is also extremely important in a fight. Size and strength do matter, and, especially if you are smaller than your opponent, superior endurance could save your life. Besides regular conditioning exercises for power and endurance, sparring practice will teach you how to conserve your energy and expend it when it will have the greatest effect. When the adrenaline is pumping, it is very important not to use up all your energy to no effect. Anyone who has ever been in a combat sporting event can tell you that whoever gasses first loses, no matter his or her level of skill.

Another place to look for answers is with men who have a great amount of experience in real fights (street fights). If you read the literature, men like Peyton Quinn and Geoff Thompson (who worked as bouncers in rough places, and who had the 'benefit' of hundreds of real fights) assert that contact sparring and grappling are absolutely essential to preparing martial artists for real fights. Geoff Thompson is especially interesting in that he has liscences to teach over a dozen Asian martial arts. But what he advocates practicing for real fighting ability is Western boxing (combat sport), wrestling (combat sport) and Judo (combat sport). The main focus of training in all three is non-cooperative free sparring.

In my own experience, I feel I developed more practical fighting ability from a year of Xing Yi Quan training in Taiwan (we sparred full contact on a regular basis) than years of training in other styles without non-cooperative sparring. Do I believe Xing Yi Quan is technically so superior to the other styles I studied? No, what made the difference was the method (we sparred).

Finally. I'll leave you with a real world example. Meynard is passionate about this subject because of his background in the martial arts. He spent years studying a 'traditional' martial art (with an excellent teacher) that did not allow sparring practice because of the 'deadly' nature of their techniques. When he first came to study with me we could basically strike, throw and submit him at will (sorry Meynard, the truth hurts sometimes). He has practiced very hard the last few years, and is now one of the best fighters in my school. He's done well in combat sporting events (Brazilian Jiu Jitsu and submissions grappling) as well as a street fight he got into with a gang member a few months ago (two leg kicks and a Pi Quan knocked the guy down. He had had enough and Meynard let him get up and limp away. Like Water Dragon said above, this is how most real fights end up, no reason to kill anybody).

I want to make it clear to my friends that posted above that I respect different methods of training. There is something to be learned from all drills, ancient and modern. What's important is to be honest about why you practice martial arts in the first place (for example, people who practice for health or recreationally don't need to spar) stay open minded and look at all different methods of training to see what works for you."

[Sum Guye]

I can't wait to see how all the Chi-Huggers respond to that brilliant post.

[Water Dragon]

Like Water Dragon said above, this is how most real fights end up, no reason to kill anybody

I got acknowledged by Tim Cartmell!!!!!!!!
I got acknowledged by Tim Cartmell!!!!!!!!
I got acknowledged by Tim Cartmell!!!!!!!!
I got acknowledged by Tim Cartmell!!!!!!!!
I got acknowledged by Tim Cartmell!!!!!!!!

Now I feel all warm and fuzzy inside. Must be my Qi!!!

[bamboo_ leaf]

chii-Huggers” damm a chi hugger sounds like fighting words. :)

I think if you view fighting in the context of h2h and many of the sport arenas of today. Then many of the things he says makes sense.

If you view fighting in the context of some one attacking you with a gun, knife, gang, what ever, then I think there may be a false confidence built up though this type of thinking.

The type of confidence that I’m talking about is the type where one has had “who worked as bouncers in rough places, and who had the 'benefit' of hundreds of real fights”

Real fights, against who? people who where drunk. Lower skill then they. Dose this count? They where ready, it’s their job so in a way they have already thrown the fist blow.

i think this is very differnt from being attacked.

The opposite might be the person who never fights or even fought, and escapes an encounter by throwing some dog **** at the attackers face after being knocked down, would you do it, would you even think about it.

Probably not, why? Because you know how to fight, your mind and body have been conditioned to view and react to things in a certain way.

I don’t know about training to fight, I do know about training to acquire skills reflected in my art.

is this differnt from training to fight?

I think once acquired it’s important to test your understanding and usage against as many different types of people as possible. The question is “real skills”

these are gen comments directed towards the topic and none here. i come from a back ground of one who trained to fight and did with many differnt types of people and arts as a yonger man. luckly the people that i ran into had no real skill in the sense that we talk of here in the neji arts or some teachers that i have met.
:)

[baguatc]

A valid point, David, and one I think Cartmell tries to address in his last paragraph (i.e., be clear on what you're training for: self-defense, fighting, health, whatever).

I'm interested in something else you bring up: that what you train for conditions the response you will have to a real-life violent attack. So if you train in the manner of Cartmell or one of the people he mentions, Geoff Thompson, you will respond in a particular matter that might limit your flexibility of response. That is, you'll meet an all-out violent assault with equal or greater rapid violence. It's the "mindset".

The problem is that without at least a modicum of conditioned reflex you will probably be taken down by the assault.

I like Cartmell's response--that's why I quoted it. I don't know anything about his "real-life" "streetfighting" experience away from the mat though. Maybe if one of his students is on this board they could talk about that.

[bamboo_ leaf]

very clear and to the point. :)

"mindset"

that is a good topic.

[Sum Guye]

when you say "If you view fighting in the context of some one attacking you with a gun, knife, gang, what ever, then I think there may be a false confidence built up though this type of thinking. " do you mean the 'sparring as close as possible to realistic fighting' (as Tim suggests) builds up false confidence?

Or do you mean the martial artist who gets trained in leathal techniques but never is able to spar has false confidence?


(Chi-Hugger is only 'fighting words' if you're a Chi-Hugger...
in which case, you wouldn't fight; you'd just get beat up
while you swirl your chi).

[baguatc]

SG I'm not speaking for BL here, but I think false confidence could be a trap either way . . . somebody with a lot of sparring and sport-fighting experience entering into a conflict situation maybe not as wary or ready for the nasty boy coming from behind to help his buddy out . . . and for the guy training in the Thousand Secret Techniques of the Old Fighting Nuns of Wudangshan.

Of course anybody can be caught by surprise and shat upon. Tim Cartmell's post didn't discount the priority of technique so much as put it in its proper (to him) order of priority relative to "mindset," conditioning, experience and sparring.

What I really liked about his post though is that Cartmell emphasizes the martial arts student being clear (and honest with themselves) about what their goal in training is, then being able to make an "informed choice" about what the teacher offers. This in turn depends on the teacher being straightforward about training practices and their own experience. It sure seems to me like that's the way Cartmell teaches.

I'd be interested in hearing more from teachers or students about WHEN students are introduced to sparring. I think I've read on this board where the Shen Wu school invites newbies to at least roll a little right from the first practice. What about other schools? I guess if I taught (I don't) I'd want to put the new student through a number of practices (maybe the first month or so) to ensure some conditioning, some movement skill, some understanding of what goes on during practice--and allow the teacher to gauge the new student's attitude and ability level during that time to determine when they're ready for sparring. Not wait 10 years, not even a year, but maybe a month or two. I guess I'd be a little concerned about the possibility of some temperamental a$$hole going off half-****ed the first time he sparred.

[bamboo_ leaf]

Damm chi huggers, :)


You talk of sparring and realistic fighting. I would say it depends on your level of involvement and weather this is your job. As in pro boxing, or any type of competition at this level..

all of these realistic events require preparation for the event. I.e. building a skill set that will allow you to survive in a ring with a known opponent using known tech. it then becomes a matter of conditioning and skill for that event.


This training should have you at peak performance just in time for the event. Yes mind set is key. Because you are a fighter, your no longer thinking in terms of self defense or another way of reacting. You fight useing your body and mind.

Lethal techniques, again look at this thinking. A pen at your desk or high heel shoes can be used as a lethal technique. Your still thinking in terms of man to man H2H.

Recently a person was killed H2H with some one else at a hockey game, this is what I’m talking about. The guy that killed him outweighed him by 100lb. He fought this guy they both lost. He died and the other will probably go to jail. Mindset, options, fighting?

In most of these matches or realistic fighting seems to me to build a mindset that may not allow the option of doing or choosing other actions.

Learning to use your style/method/concept against others not from your school is important to your development to a point.

I can see trouble form what I’m about to write. :(

A lot of this depends if your art is concept based or tech. based. Much of what I read with many people in the other forums seems to be tech. based.

dose your art work againts the body or the mind!

If you look at what the arts that are called internal are about, for me they are more of a concept that once developed can be used in many different ways. This is why I feel the IMA arts are very hard to really lean and develop. I am not saying better, but very much different approach.

The trouble that I see is for many really not being able to demonstrate the concepts and thinking that they can.


I don’t know if this answered your question but it how I view things.

;)

[Water Dragon]

Bamboo Leaf,
Full contact, intense sparring is a necesary part of training. No one is saying that is the only, or even most important part. I personally place a higher importance level in freestyle Tui Shou than sparring or specific technique practice.

[Shooter]

>"A lot of this depends if your art is concept based or tech. based"<

Concepts and ideas work for me, and are the focus of how I train others...techniques are those neat little things that just happen when the body's movement is tactically sound.

[crumble]

WD,

On that same thread you mentioned that the 5 elements/punches weren't really/only punches (if I remember correctly). Could you explain, maybe in a new thread?

TIA

-crumble

[Water Dragon]

Sorry Crumble,
I'm not at liberty to say.

Closed-door kung fu training is SUPPOSED to have constant sparring.

My style, Seng Men, has a very structured and rigorous progression of steps toward free sparring. By mastering the ascension, sparring becomes the natural conclusion of the training.

I think that if one's sifu hasn't experienced that upward progression of skill building toward free sparring, there's no way he's going to show it to students unless he takes his lumps fighting all sorts of folks.

Traditional kung fu styles try to AVOID the lumptaking by preparing the student step by step.

[crumble]

We have ways of making you talk, Mwa ha ha!

-c

[Sum Guye]

you said a lot but you never answered my question:

Did you mean the 'sparring as close as possible to realistic fighting' (as Tim suggests) builds up false confidence...

or did you mean the martial artist who gets trained in leathal techniques but never spars has false confidence?

[bamboo_ leaf]

I would say both. :)

One has confidence based on false assumptions, the other has confidence based on false skills.

I think real CMA should teach and build skill sets that allow the mind to know what to do, and a body with the skill to act.

Confidence, mmm what dose this really mean. Either you act or you don’t. it’s not a thinking process…

A small story you probably heard it before:

There was a master of the tea ceremony. Somehow he angered a samurai. The samurai told him that he would kill him the next day. Not knowing what to do he went to his friend.
His friend told him to hold his sword with the same mind that he used pore tea.

They met the next day. They both drew their swords the samurai was unable to kill the tea master.
His mind intent was to strong and he had no fear of death.
The samurai had no opening. ;)

There is more to this story but it kind of speaks to where I’m am at now in my own thinking.

In the TC classics it speaks of training the listening skills, after a while free hand or not free hand it’s the same the skill acquired works either way.

These are my views at this time. every thing that people have written of here I did at one time or another.

Maybe I’m out of step but this is where I’m at now. :)

I don't know if this answard your question.
but i thank you and all the rest even if we don't agree or seem to be againts each other it has really made me think, and rexamine my views. :)

luck in training

[Nexus]

T'ai chi is training you to not need to think in terms of sparring or what if's. It is training your body, not your mind, and the mind is difficult for Americans especially to let go of. Sparring and "what if's" are in many situation mental games more then physical, and although we enact them physically, the intent behind each of our movements is a mental one. He is coming at me with a left jab, I need to do so and so and such and such.

You are working towards your body knowing where it needs to be and how it needs to be as a natural movement. I believe this is what bamboo_leaf is approaching in his comments.

Something to point out is in truth you can achieve a high degree of skill through both means, and often several different approaches can bring you to a similar desired goal.

- Nexus

[les paul]

There are all kinds if throws and chin-na located inside xingyi elements.

for example

Pi quan good sweeps and elbow/shoulder chin-na.
Zuan" good shoulder throws plus arm and shoulder chin-na
Beng not a whole lot of throws and chin-ma inside, but many graet ways to clear and strike.
Pao has some good hip throws and shoulder/arm chin-na/some sweeps too
Heng is loaded with chin-na, some sweeps just about everything hence the name earth.

[les paul]

Also, sparring is everthing.................................


yet, nothing.


spanky

[Ray Pina]

Great post. But I still stand behing my One Shot Kill. It's actually yhe third shot it most cases, but its the one delievered to finish.

Bang, bang, Boooom. One shot kill. I also think fights should be concluded quickly. Actually, as my master always drills, one should not fight, just beat the $hit out of someone. Point, if you are fighting (ie, resistance, clashing) you will have a hell of a time against the bigger man.

Other then that, I agree with that gentleman 100%. Must train as real as possible as often as possible, if combat is a priority.

[Sum Guye]

nope.. that's still a non-answer.

here, try this one:

you HAVE to fight A or B... which would you rather get into
an all out brawl with:

a. a guy who has trained in Bagua and Tai Ji for 3 years
sparring, full contact 3 times a week.

b. a guy who has trained in Bagua and Tai Ji for 3 years
but never sparred because he didn't think he needed
to since he practices the forms twice a day.

would you rather fight A or B?

and why.

[bamboo_ leaf]

The example of IMA training is faulty to begin with, as is your idea of fighting.

It actually might be easier to fight with some one who trains full contact 3 times a week.

you would know what to expect the question then becomes what is your own level of fighting.

Assuming you view fighting which it looks like you do in the context of a ring. I don’t share this view.

Given the example of IMA practicing the forms 2 times a day.

If the practice is correct practice this person might be harder to deal with. You wouldn’t know what to expect they wouldn’t know what to do. Anything could happen.

They might pick up a brick and use brick fu with what they do anything is possible.



This is my answer. :)

[Sum Guye]

what is my view of fighting. (and what ring?)

then tell me your view of fighting.

and when you say "The example of IMA training is faulty... "
what example of training? How is it faulty?

I'm begining to see why you viewed my term Chi-Hugger
as offensive.

[Ray Pina]

If one wants to be a MARTIAL artists, eventually, no matter their inner fears or whatever, they have to put the gear on and go at it, not points, not boxing, full on control the other guy and then put him down.

I've been studying, learning, refining since I was 4, it's always been there, but I couldn't imagine training for 5 years and never testing: Why not? How else do you know if it works, because sifu said so? A good teacher would not want that kind of student, unless they just kept handing over the checks each month of coarse.

One has to question everything, even a technique pulled off well. How could it be better? How can it be refined? That's how the old men beat young men like myself. Experience! Experience and further refinemnt.

There really is no other way. For me, I'd like to fight guy B. I love guys who have been doing forms for 15 years and claim systems. They never seem to want to play, always perform. If he bends down to pick anything up, its the last thing he'll do well that day. A weapon not used properly will be used against its wielder.

[bamboo_ leaf]

"Bamboozle Leaf,"


I think you misspelled it. :)

As for your other questions go to some one who can really do IMA and ask for some training.

EvolutionFist

I started my training before you where born. Saying that you began training at 4. What is this supposed to mean?


Again it’s okay, you too have your views. These are mine.

[blacktaoist]

My opinion is if a internal practitioner just practice froms and two man drills with no feestyle full -contact sparring. Their never established a real practical form of combat.

Any Martial Art practitioner can practice rehash forms and combat drills, but to utilize these skills in sparring will not be easy if a person don't have unrehash freefighting experience.

I have seen many Martial Artist who were good at forms and rehash self defense drills. They had good reaction time and timing when ever they perform their techniques. Why" because it was rehash, any time a person practice a form or technique in a repetittive manner, timing will automatically come. It will happen naturally. nothing big to write home about, because the practitioner knows what technique is coming.


Free style sparring is the best way to develop unrehash reflex and timing, not a thinking one.(Forms and two man combat drills) sparring is the best way, because a person is doing it for real. They have a person striking back at them. So they are under pressure to pay attention and not let their mind wander.

Bottom line is the best rehash Martial Art fighter does not always win, but the best prepared fighter usually does.

Internal practitioners only cheat themself, if they don't practice sparring, freefighting can open up new vistas, allow a martial art practitioner freedom to explore and creative new methods and combine them with already established techniques for a better , more practical form of combat.

Knowledge and experience that a rehash internal practitioner will never attain, because they don't have real experience and didn't undergo Full Contact sparring. Try fighting a boxer that trains in the ring Full contact unrehash everyday in the gym. And All you practice is forms and rehash combat drills. I put my money down the boxer will win. Because the rehash fighter will not have the right mindset or experrience. There is a big world of difference in rehash fighting and unrehash sparring.

Bottom line is people that practice the internal styles need to get real with themself. You never reach high level skills just practicing rehash fighting. sparring is more then just kicking and striking, sparring is a art form and method to help a person to explore himself. Its is not base on practicing rehash techniques to look good for a mass audience, as so many so called internal style practitioners are today.

sparring have no mass audience appeal with the fake internal practitioners, because they mindset is timid and many don't want to work hard for true genuine Kung fu skills." All talk and no real skills to show for.

Most so called internal practitioner today are in very poor physical condition, but they are always talking about Chi and how they can utilize Chi in a fight. What a joke these people are.

My point is, a person can say that they can utilize Chi and look bad physical and most of the time get a way with the bull$hit. Why? Because people like to play dump or fool theyself sometimes. Thats just human nature, people like to have belief in foolish things and even support things that are no true some times.

But in sparring a person have to prove to their opponent they have attain fighting skills. There is no way to fake that , if a person have true shills in the martial arts it will show in sparring. If not then need I say more......................
:(

Peace practice and live long.

[wisdom mind]

no matter what level you are at, make it a point to get mashed out on the regular and it will do wonders for your development

if no then you will remain stagnant

there is no two ways about it

burn dem

[BAI HE]

There is nothing like getting the bag beat out of you. Period.
Any style, all styles under any circumstance. The survival mechanisms built within your organism will dictate to the mind where you should move in order not to get squashed in the same manner as a previous painful encounter. This is basic subconcious bio-feedback.

About five years ago I took a nice roundhouse kick to the "floating ribs" I collapsed in a heap and breathing hurt for about 2 weeks. This guy ( a junior I took for granted) , during a "light" sparring session nearly put my ribs through my spine.

I'll never go "light" on defense ever again and I've sure as hell have never been nailed with that technique since. That's real learning.

I also learned that this guy (ex-boxer) liked to fake a lead left and deliver the short (in TKD a 45 degree kick under my lead elbow) snappy kick to the ribs. I'd spar him there after by watching his hips instead of looking at his shoulders.

[Ray Pina]

Bamboo_leaf, my comments were not directed at you, but the board in general. In fact, I do not know what your point of view is, other then that you have been training longer than myself.

I brought up the age I began, 4, to establish that my training has changed, in regard to style, as well as its focus, from tournament sparring to back street survival.

I am very comfortable with my training and myself -- I do stand by my comments though, one has to fight. One can not become a MARTIAL artists, simply doing form.

I read above that timing will be developed, I disagree, not real timing. You have nothing to time against when doing forms, its all you, there is no exterior force, only what in your head.

Forms are nice, healthy, a good source of material. But reading the bible and living a Christian life are two different things. Doing forms, and fighting, equally different.

[Sum Guye]

when you replied "As for your other questions go to some one who can really do IMA and ask for some training"

I was confused. I re-read the thread and still, to me, it was you who stated my view of fighting is faulty... and it was you who said the training example was incorrect.... that's why I simply
asked YOU to expound on your comments.

I do study with someone who can 'really do IMA' (Tim Cartmell has
been my teacher for the last 3 or 4 years).... but that doesn't help me understand why you think my idea of fighting is flawed
(since you seem to know, I'm very interested in hearing what
my flawed view of fighting is).

[EARTH DRAGON]

OOOHHH OOOHHH can I take this one?

YOUR ATITUDE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Sum Guye]

what does that misspelling have to do with our discussion?

[EARTH DRAGON]

HA HA figured you like that one, do you not see the connection?
think again ATITUDE !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[bamboo_ leaf]

Hi Sum Guy / evolution fist,
This is good we can have a dialog.

Wrote a lot but decided it wasn’t worth it. But then decided to post it anyway.

SG,
Your example of some one training IMA seemed to imply just doing the from was s/he was doing IMA. i thought this was wrong. Meeting the requirements of really doing the from is often very difficult if you can really do it, will impart some skill.


EF,

All reality takes place in the head, real or imagined. To perceive what is happening and act in accordance with it. Not in accordance with a perception built on ideas of what reality is. I used “brick fu” to illustrate the freedom of an idea independent of a preconceived idea. You took it the wrong way.

Sparring mmm, let me give you an example of what I’m talking about.
A young leaf was on a bus, the style that he used to play was white crane. Something happened on the bus between leaf and some one else. He tried to get this person to get off the bus in order to bring the WC long arm into play. The person refused and they ended up trading blows there before the bus driver kicked leaf off the bus.

Now instead of looking at what was there, the leaf was looking at it in the context of sparring match and trying to use his style to it’s best advantage. He could have used a book or many other things but his mind was filled with fighting in the manor of what he did on a regular basis’s in the kf gym.

I pasted this from another tread I think it express some key points.


By boy analog,

“Our teacher is quite adamant that technique is less important than power and sensitivity. He's far and away the best martial artist I've ever seen, but he can be a little hard to understand at times. I think that this is a small price to pay.

The guy who was attacked (his name is Patrick) has a pretty solid background in Wing Chun. I too used to train in Wing Chun, though I didn't advance as far as Patrick.

In fact, most of the people here seem to have done something else before coming to our school. This is probably a mixed blessing. On the positive side of the ledger, having a background in a more "obvious" style will attune you to exploring the martial applications of our training, as well as having a broader appreciation of the kinds of techniques that one might have to face. On the negative side, it can sometimes block your understanding if you try to comprehend an internal style within the framework of an external style.” END/



" can sometimes block your understanding if you try to comprehend an internal style within the framework of an external style"

very nice, very much agree with this statment.

All of the IMA arts that I have read about and those people that I have met had real skills. They can be applied to sparring but where not developed though sparring.

I don’t know if this really explains my views or not. :)

[blacktaoist]

Evolution Fist)I read above that timing will be developed, I disagree, not real timing. You have nothing to time against when doing forms, its all you, there is no exterior force, only what in your head.

BT) Maybe you need to practice your forms to Music during your workout sometimes and you will see what I mean. Practicing your forms to music develop timing and even rhythm. A person have to have they timing down to stay with the beat of the music.

Not only is practicing to music develop some timing but it will also give a practitioner rhythm and beat that they need.


Even if a practitioner just practice their forms with out music they still will develop timing. If you have a friend time you with a watch, and you are trying to finish your form at a certain time, is that not timing.

Here is a example:You are a BaGuaZhang competitor at a internal martial art tournament and you have only one mintue and 1/2 to conclude your form. If you don't have your timing down in their form, there is no way that you finish your form in time, You may even go over time, because your form timing is off. So I stand by my opinion practicing forms can develop timing in my viewpoint.

But when it comes down to freefighting, I stand by my first statement:

Free style sparring is the best way to develop unrehash reflex and timing, not a thinking one.(Forms and two man combat drills) sparring is the best way, because a person is doing it for real. They have a person striking back at them. So they are under pressure to pay attention and not let their mind wander.

Bottom line is people develop timing everyday, because timing is a part of life.

Peace practice and live long.
:)

[shaolinboxer]

"Bottom line is people develop timing everyday, because timing is a part of life."

That is the pearl of wisdom from this thread. Excellent!

[maoshan]

Evolution fist,

[I read above that timing will be developed, I disagree, not real timing. You have nothing to time against when doing forms, its all you, there is no exterior force, only what in your head.]

Your wrong,
1st, Forms are Techniques strung together like pearls on a string.
but that's the point, Techniques. Each tec. is indevidual unto itself.
Some are performed faster some slower. each technique has an attitude and every form has a spirit. but that's part of the problem
with CMA in the west, most do it with no life. Find the life, find the timing.
Also, What's in your head is exactly what it's all about. If I constantly think about fighting as i perform my forms, I'm working on timing with out thinking about it.
Like breathing while eating, you body naturally adjust with out your consious thought.

Peace

Maoshan

[Ray Pina]

Blach Toaist, I love going to raves and "dancing" (training) and flowing with the music, but this is my point, with the rythm, you know what is coming by nature of rythm, yes, every once in a while a break beat will be thrown in, but its still insync, otherwise, it wouldn't be music, just noise.

My point: fighters are unpredictable, have rythms all unto themselves. No one can convince me otherwise that one can become a good fighter without fighting -- it's called impossible. Otherwise, those housewife taiji classes must be secretly training killers. How can one test, refine, without putting the gloves on and going at it. Then, taking them off and going at it.

Are you telling me you train without any actual combat experience, never having someone not cooperating and strying to strike you?

[Ray Pina]

Moashan, I disagree with you as well.

If you are studying forms to memorize techniques, instead of capturing the flavor of their principles, you are waisting your time unless the person coming to take your head off comes in the same coreographed manner.

Am I insane, or am I the only martial artist that thinks it is 100% necessary to train against a full powered, uncooperative opponant. God help the martial arts, its going to hell in a hand basket. Everybody wants to dance and fight 15 guys in their head, but ask them to go three rounds, and "No, taiji is about relax. Relax. Relax."

You'll have plenty of time to relax in the ER when someone comes at you ready to take your head off and your freeze, panic, or get blown back because you're not used to dealing with force, just yourself rocking back and forth.

PLEASE! Try it with some gear and oppant just once. You'll see what needs to be worked on. I can't even believe I'm having this conversation with a martial artists -- that one has to get banged around a bit. It's rediculous, scary, and yet very comforting at the same time.

[blacktaoist]

E-F)My point: fighters are unpredictable, have rythms all unto themselves. No one can convince me otherwise that one can become a good fighter without fighting -- it's called impossible.

B-T) Man what are you talking about? Where in any of my statemenents I'm trying to covince you or anyone for that matter that you don't need to freefight.

this is why I don't post much on Kung Fu on line because most people can't comprehen what they read. This is one of my statements to you:


Free style sparring is the best way to develop unrehash reflex and timing, not a thinking one.(Forms and two man combat drills) sparring is the best way, because a person is doing it for real. They have a person striking back at them. So they are under pressure to pay attention and not let their mind wander.

I think you need to Enhanced your comprehension level more. There not one word in my sentence where I say not to practice freefighting.

E-F) Are you telling me you train without any actual combat experience, never having someone not cooperating and strying to strike you?)

Man I'm not even going to answer that question because my first statement was tells you my viewpoint on fighting.

Peace All, practice and live long.
:D

[Ray Pina]

I apoligize. I read the opening question and responded. I didn't read above that.

All I saw was your response to me: "Maybe you need to practice your forms to Music during your workout sometimes and you will see what I mean. Practicing your forms to music develop timing and even rhythm. A person have to have they timing down to stay with the beat of the music. "

Reading your earlier reply, I agree with you and we share a similiar outlook on training. For my reading comprehension, I am quite comfortable with it. May not be noticable here, because I bang them out quicj because I am at work, but am actually an editor for thw world's largest publishing house -- reading comprehension pays my bills.

Nice meeting you. Also, with whom do you train? You are in NYC, right? I train with Master Bong Chan.

[blacktaoist]

E-F) I train with a lot of Chinese Internal teachers. But my three main teachers are: Chen Xiao Ping(Yin Style BaGua) Li Tai Liang(xing Yi Quan) and Sifu Rudy Curry Jr.(Chen Man Ching Tai Chi and push hands)

peace.:cool:

[maoshan]

Evolution fist,

[If you are studying forms to memorize techniques, instead of capturing the flavor of their principles, you are waisting your time unless the person coming to take your head off comes in the same coreographed manner.]

Who said this? Not I.
What I wrote is a method used in conjunction with real sparring.
How did you come to this conclusion? If you really pay attention to what me and my classmate post, you would see that all we do is fight. All out fighting at that. You can only learn to fight by fighting. What I spoke on is a component in training to fight.
I'm no mythical Chi Fighter, nor do I believe in it.

[PLEASE! Try it with some gear and oppant just once. You'll see what needs to be worked on. I can't even believe I'm having this conversation with a martial artists]

We use no gear in fighting. There will be none in the real thing.
You need to know what can happen if it was real. You leave the class limping and brused but not carried away.
and as far as being a martial artist, make no mistake this is not a game for me, the only thing I know better is breathing.
Your research should includ various methods of training to inhance your progress, if not you'll be just medioca in your level of acheivement. My classmate and I seek the pinicle of the art.
Elementary aspects of the art are not where I dwell in my phase of training so speak from where i'm at and not where you are.

expand your mind. Look for methods to improve your practice.

maoshan

[blacktaoist]

No need to fight over who viewpoint is right. Every one is opinionated in they belief. What matters in life is what every you do in life, it is practical it makes you happy and it gets the job done fast.

peace

[Nexus]

Taiji is training the animal mind and the body which seems to be repressed by most americans 24/7. The pro to doing this is that you will react as necessary when the time comes, without thinking. The con can be viewed in several respects but I can draw an example: Your child jumps out from around the corner to scare you and you kick him, or somebody grabs you from behind to give you a surprise hug and you elbow them in the chest.

Things to think upon, but not while training.

[Internal Boxer]

Bamboo Leaf,

No disrespect mate but with regard to Geoff Thompson working on the doors, and door men in general in the UK they regularly deal with nutters who they throw out, without realising they are hardcore criminals, who come back with their mates brandishing knives and guns.

I suggest you read Geoff Thompsons experiences before you pass comments on this area. If a REAL fighter like Geoff Thompson (GT) advises such training methods ie. boxing and grappling, then considering he has had over 300 fights and dealt with ruthless scum from the underworld then I would suggest that he knows more on this subject of street fights than you or me. Its good to train in the skills of IMA (and at the highest level I am convinced they work) but unless you have proven that these skills work in the street arena. I dont just mean a dozen fights with not well skilled opponents but I mean Hardcore Criminals like G.T. has come up against.

I am not doubting your ability but what I am trying to say is unless you have been through what Mr Thompson has been though day in day out, then you cannot possibly comprehend what bouncers face. Your disrespect to other fighters who are not IMA is a bit worrying, (your last post did not give bouncers any credit in terms of dealing with nasty situations). Try not to see IMA as the supreme ultimate in fighting cause ultimately its down to the indiviual not the style, be more open minded, Don't take this the wrong way mate I am trying to help you understand areas you obviously have concrete convictions on with no understanding, once you read what GT has been through I am sure you will agree.

I must say that the IMA are amazing and the power generated from qi-gong is awesome, and I truly see myslef as dedicated to the internal arts in terms of viewing chi development as the pathway to the internal, but I believe body conditioning and tendon conditioning are the initial phase to get the student to be able to "fight". So I do not want you to think that I dispel the manifestation of internal energy within fighting is unreal. Its just that some players get a real feeling of chi moving in the body and uproot a few people and think they are good fighers. But the sad fact of the matter is this is not self defence, for REAL self defence you have to fight some pretty mean b*stards, and all that other guys are trying to say is that by training full contact hard sparring and grappling it is the first step to this, you cannot run before you can walk. Boxers for example if thats all they have studied will get there ass seriously kicked by a good grappler as they have nothing to deal with this (although again it depends on the individual Mike Tyson for example even though he is classed as a boxer is in fact a good street fighter, take the ear biting: perfect response in a fight. Biting is excellent to rip ears and noses off!! I know guys who have had their nose bitten off in street fights, now that is the REAL fighting what Bouncers have to deal with. You may have done all the hard sparring and grappling in the past, in which case you do not have to go through it again, as you understand what works and what does not, and it is always the simplest techniques. All the best mate.

[EARTH DRAGON]

I would just like to bring up a point. Since I have been involved with the martial arts I have worked as a bouncer, bodyguard and concert security. Although I have been in many scuffles and many fights, it is a little different then an all and all knock down dragout street fight. Why simply becuse when you are working you get certain respect from doing your job as opposed to acting like a bad a$$. When you are hired to protect something the people in which you have the problem with will respect that to a certain degree even a little. So it is not an actual test of true skill to say that a security or door man will face the same situations that non working people face. I am not sayting anything against your freind geoff but in my experience when they find out they are fighting the bouncers they tend to ease up a little more than they would normally.somrtimes just the words I'm security can change their demeanor.

[bamboo_ leaf]

None taken, no disrespecting towards any one intended. ;)

My main points a basically this.

What ever you do, the tendency is to view everything within this context. When people talk of fighting their idea is either the last one that they have been in or going very hard either in training or some type of self-defense course.

All of their thinking and training becomes oriented around this; this is, as many have pointed out the reason of and why of their training.

If you look at many of the IMA arts I think you will find certain skill sets must first be developed (real skill sets) that can be applied to combative situations but are not derived from combative practice.

For me this is much different from most other CMA arts that I have studied where the training and skill where direct reflections of intended use. They seek to over come by using some type of tech, developing some special attribute or power. Like the idea of what is called “long arm, white crane” or the idea that “none can defeat speed, praying mantis ” not saying what is better just that for me at this point these seem to be some very fundamently diffrences approches.

The current dialog over the ring events are a direct reflection of this process.

Now contrast that with what is called IMA. The approach form what I have experienced and come to believe is totally different. I have met people from the other 2 main IMA arts but really can’t say that I have much knowledge of them. I will only talk of TC (these are my views)

You spoke of some people doing some pushing and uprooting and then going out thinking that they could do something and getting slammed. Och! Wake up call. :(

The problem with this is IMHO is that not many really reach the point where they have developed real skills. The main skill is that of listening and what is called understanding force. Not really having these skills and thinking you have will get you slammed.

These skills are not born of fighting against someone; they are developed in a much different way. Once developed the usage is up to you. The key is to really have the skill. Some will read this and think of how would they really know if the skill developed is real.

my answer would be that the process of developing the skill should allow you to determine this. this is why it is important to have a teacher that really has what your looking for.

the other half as many here are doing is to intergrate the skill into your inteneded use what ever that may be.

What I read here sometimes seems to be confusion over usage and skill.

I play TC the skill sets that I seek to develop are those that embody my views and ideas of TC. Having these skills alone dose not make me a good fighter it just allows me to apply the skill developed to what ever I want to do with it. the skill once aquired dose not depend on the intent of the usage. like rideing a bike once learned it's always there.

the level of your skill is dependent on your needs.

The classics speak of once the skill is acquired then fix hand, free hand, san da, its all the same but the point is that you must first have the real skill.

As with any humane endeavor there are many interpretations, this is good. You follow what you believe to be true with the given information around you. i question those in this medium as I question myself, it helps my understanding and hopefully offers a slightly differnt view point that some may find usfule.

Bouncers, self-defense experts, police. They all have developed ways and means that work for them but the main point as I see it is that they are always prepared. This preparedness works for them. much of it IMHO is being able to see what's coming. So in a way they have always thrown the first punch just by the nature of their jobs.


for me the idea of TC is quite simple, How this is put to use and interpreted is not. What I seek and enjoy is reading the different interpretations here and contrasting them with mine at this time. If we where in the same place then we could help each other to develop and test our understandings.

i hope that is what most of us are doing here by shareing our views :)

[Internal Boxer]

Sorry Bud I disagree, I have seen it kick off where 10 lads are battling 3 bouncers. Hardcore nutters and criminals do not respect ANYBODY, they see taking on bouncers as a challenge, and will come back again to hurt or jump the bouncers when they least expect it. Because they want to hurt people pure and simple. Hardcore criminals do not see any honour in such fights they will use whatever means necessary to put you down. Sure normal people will have a "certain respect" for bouncers and those paid to do this type of work but I do not think you understand the mind set of some of the nutters out there, and thats what I am talking about, so like I said read Geoff Thompsons "Watch my back " (UK best seller) it will open your eyes to life and death fights in the underworld. By the way I do not Know Mr Thompson, he is a well known in the martial art community in the UK for his pragmatic approach to fighting. I have only read a lot of his material, and through my own experiences realise the no frills truth he puts forward.

[Internal Boxer]

Bamboo Leaf, my last post was in Reply to Earth Dragon, but in response to your post, I do agree with everything you have stated as internal skills that are found in TC are fundamental building blocks to learn how to fight with TC.

However I have met players who have some level of ability in listening, uprooting, following, sticking, loading etc, and sadly they cannot fight, with simply a headguard and open hand mitts they can battered. So what I am trying to say is that if you focus entirley on these areas it will not help you in a confrontation. So I would suggest that you enter a full contact tournament and test your TC skills to see if they are good enough to deal with an external martial artist. Sadly there are many people who say they are of such good ability but fail to convince anyone, by proving it in the ring situation. While I know ring fighting is not like real like street fighting, it is the only way to convince other styles that TC practioners can exhibit there skill in a safe environement, so please let me know when you have won tournaments using TC skill, and you will get guys banging down your door wanting to learn from you, you will make a fortune, and if you are not money orientated just think of the good charitable work you could do with it helping your fellow man!! deep down you know that is the only way you way be able to safely convince others is by PROVING IT IN A TOURNAMENT. (Wang Shu Jin when in his 80's used to take on all comers of all the toughest fighers in china & Japan) You could be the next Wang shu Jin!!!!!!!!!

[NafAnal]

He could take a punch too...

[bamboo_ leaf]

Far, far from it

Thanks; I have tested my skill, against people in other arts in this manor.

My skill is very small, still much to work on but I feel I have a good grasp of my ability at this point.

If I felt that entering such contest would help me find what I’m looking for I would. At this time it’s not what I’m looking for nor do I feel it will bring me closer to it.

If they still can be battered as you say maybe they don’t really understand or have the skill that you feel they have.

Some of this is addressed in degree and level. The fact that they got battered would indicate to me that there level was not up to addressing their needs. So this too is good it just means that they need to work harder.

useing the fromat you suggested head gear and all, please look at boxers, when they tie each other up very much like what one might expect from a TC player with the exception that what gets tied is only a progression to what follows not an end point.

i see a lot of TC being used in many arts but it's just not called TC.

Don’t care about money, or fame only finding and exploring this art that I have come to know in this life.

thanks for your advice :)

[Internal Boxer]

I understand what you are saying mate, but with regard boxing and getting "tied up" as they so often do this is the point where grappling comes into play, when I spar this is what I do, open handed mitts mean you can stick, and listen to his energy, and in that sense by forgeting yourself and listening to him he tells you how to defeat him. Ideally you should be rooted and grapple standing up (or throw him) but this is not always the case. Although some skills employed in Taiji such as sticking and listening are already employed by grapplers as their standard practice, take Judo guys, they go with the flow so to speak so any reation you have they do not think I will apply this or that technique, they listen and stick to you applying the correct pressure (loading) to make you subconscious react in a manner that will lead to you defeating yourself!! When in practice they primarly focus on the simple aspects such as strangles, neck locks and cranks (although cranks are not allowed in comps, and then their larger repertoire of arm locks etc come into play). See if you can root effectively against them trying to throw you. Thats why on another post I recommend you train with some big powerful Judo guys (Dan gradings at least) it will open your eyes than they already have that skill integrated in their body. Sadly most IMA players think listening and sticking and loading is unique to that art. Wakey Wakey rise and shine.

[Internal Boxer]

Oh by the way the Judo guys do not define sticking, listening and loading, they simply develop this skill naturally by continued practice and if you train with high level guys you will feel it for yourself. Lads below black belt will not necessarily have the skill so just train with the more experienced ones, who train day in day out. The name judo means "gentle way" as translated by Harold sharp in the book 'techniques of Judo'.