shameful embarrasment

[punchdrunk]

I have not posted for a long time, but i have kept up with this forum and there are some intelligent people who post here. People who understand that the study of Kungfu (all MA as well)is about self defence, self protection etc.
Then there are those who come on to feel safe and powerful by insulting others over a computer. I have never minded style bashing so much, but the recent rash of "challenge Matches" has me ashamed to be a reader of this forum. What does this have to do with self defense?? You want to test yourselves and others by play fighting?? What is there to gain?? For anyone who has had to defend themselves in a truly violent encounter these challenges are an insult.
If you lose a challenge what happens.. are you raped, crippled, murdered? No just embarassed. I have fought for defense and for style pride, and can honestly say they are worlds apart. The people who cheer on a challenge are just cowards afraid to test themselves. The people in the challenge are just egocentric fools who have played too many games, read too many comic books, and watched too many movies. And the sane people who try to stop it are laughed at or ignored.
Sometimes we forget the systems we practice were invented by victims who needed to protect themsevles. Not world champions or grandmasters. I know there are MA systems invented by champs, but if it was invented for a sport.. it was not invented for selfdefence.

[DelicateSound]

Originally posted by punchdrunk
I
Then there are those who come on to feel safe and powerful by insulting others over a computer. I have never minded style bashing so much, but the recent rash of "challenge Matches" has me ashamed to be a reader of this forum. What does this have to do with self defense?? You want to test yourselves and others by play fighting?? What is there to gain?? For anyone who has had to defend themselves in a truly violent encounter these challenges are an insult.

Another formula kids [twirls moustache]

Absenteism + Bug up ass = Rash and morbid posting

:D

I hate it too. No-one talks about anything KF related anymore. If you post one, you get trolled. You can't win. Just roll with the waves and chuck in some jokes about Rolls' mother. Ever hear the time she was with the one-eyes twelve-c*cked Chinese leper?......

[DelicateSound]

This WILL end soon. We're all part of the Anti-troll movement at the mo!

They are uprising though.

[DelicateSound]

Oh and PD, the Street/Reality Fighting board is always on topic, free from trolls and challenges and usually full of knowledgeable folks. I post there often.

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

maybe some people just like to fight without the risk of being maimed or killed. maybe they think it's fun. that doesn't make them anything but people who like the competition.

on the other hand that's not what's been going on around here. ralek likes to play games and sometimes we are gullible enough to at least have hope that we'll see him get beat down.

if you hate the soap operas that much stick to the other forums. they aren't as trafficed so the trolls generally stay away from them.

[punchdrunk]

trolling i expect, but whats with all the fake challenges? And am I the only one who hasnt laid the pipe into rolls momma or what?
seriously tho, I'll check out the street/reality section but somehow i bet fake matches will rule there too. And i feel guilty about the rolls momma joke already ;(

[DelicateSound]

The SF/R forum is pretty safe. G.Fist used to post there, but he has disappeared. [shame actually-he knew his stuff]

Rolls is a whining piece of sh!t. His mother deserves all the sh!t she gets for giving birth to him :D

Good luck on the sensible conv. Post on the SF/R board and I'll pop over in a couple of hours.

[punchdrunk]

How do u fight without the risk of being maimed or killed?? that is incredibly un realistic... that is called sparring . I told u thats an insult to anyone whos had to defend themselves. Do u consider lazer tag to be a war as well?? Sparring has its purposes but its not fighting.
Im not defending Ralek, but the kid is obviously just joking. I dont know why he isnt just banned. That may actually save his life. I also cant beleive that adults would be sucked into his games. The guy probably can't even buy beer yet. He's probably more worried about when he'll get his first date than any challenge match!
I hope i have not offended anyone with selfdefense as their intent in training, if so i apologise.

[JF Springer]

People who understand that the study of Kungfu (all MA as well)is about self defence, self protection etc.

-I might not have enough time in, or real world encounters, to qualify as what you term knowledgeable people. In spite of this I do disagree with your characterization of TCMA as noted above. They are, and always have been, systems for producing force of sufficient magnitude to destroy the human form. The philosophical or religious elements are in addition to, not the actual physical system.

Then there are those who come on to feel safe and powerful by insulting others over a computer. I have never minded style bashing so much, but the recent rash of "challenge Matches" has me ashamed to be a reader of this forum. What does this have to do with self defense??

-IMO, "self-defense" is a misnomer that should be purged from any MA's vocabulary. A person may choose to employ their method in a situation that could possibly qualify as self-defense. However, the actual intent when training or practicing should always be purely martial in nature.

You want to test yourselves and others by play fighting?? What is there to gain??

-I do not "play" at all.

For anyone who has had to defend themselves in a truly violent encounter these challenges are an insult.

-Perhaps, but the alternative is allow rather snotty nosed punks to run amuck and unchecked. IMO, those of us who are older have some degree of responsibility for policing up the errant youths and pounding them back into conformity with accepted social norms.

If you lose a challenge what happens.. are you raped, crippled, murdered?

-I don't lose as death is the only thing will stop me. As for winding up dead or crippled, those are always possibilities, so it goes.

No just embarassed. I have fought for defense and for style pride, and can honestly say they are worlds apart.

-I take you at your word. IME, having done the real deal in the streets, as well as on roof tops in Chinatown, the two scenarios you note were very much one and the same.

The people who cheer on a challenge are just cowards afraid to test themselves.

-Perhaps, who knows, who cares?

The people in the challenge are just egocentric fools who have played too many games, read too many comic books, and watched too many movies.

-You're pretty much full of $hit on that end. I don't actively seek challenges any longer having done that to my satisfaction years ago. However, I never refuse a challenge as that would be disrespectful of those who have been so kind as to share with me some part of their cultural heritage.

And the sane people who try to stop it are laughed at or ignored.

-Maybe, and then again, perhaps the sane people should get off their collective, whiney a$$es and insist the moderators of this forum abide by their own promulgated guidelines.

Sometimes we forget the systems we practice were invented by victims who needed to protect themsevles.

-No to the victims part of it as an absolute. Some methods were created by those seeking a more efficient and effective way of destroying their enemies. Kwongsai Jook Lum Tong Long comes to mind.

[Merryprankster]

Serious competition has a place. So does testing of skills in a "challenge."

Deal with it.

[punchdrunk]

as far as i know martial means war.. if u arent in it for self defense you are a soldier? of course kungfu can kill... duh. I never said that was wrong. your gonna die in a challenge match??? or kill someone?? your a joke like ralek. ethics arent invented to be "nice" or spiritual. they are to make a safer society. Thats why ethics and selfdefense (chinese or not) go together. I will not challenge anyone here, but i have defended myself on numerous occasions, and i know others who have been unsuccesful. The effects of both last a long time.Violence is truly horrific. All sane people have a natural revulsion to it. Go ahead beat up weaklings and feel tough. I know inside it still hurts. Go ahead insult me, call me weak. I am strong enuf to take it child. Ask yourself what u fight for...

[Fu-Pow]

I've been posting on this forum for the better part of a year now. Ralek has dominated the main kung fu discussion board for as long as I can remember.

Why don't the administrators create a general discussion forum? I know that idea was batted around. Cyberkwoon does it and I think it works pretty good. Then they could just move all of Raleks non-sense to the General Forum.

In fact, I think I'm going to leave here and go over to Cyberkwoon right now.

Peace

[punchdrunk]

there should be a posting contest to see who is the most macho of all!!! I now understand much more of the forum. The trick is not to think, just try to sound like a 70s kungfu movie gangster!! alright here goes...


(silent but menacing)
(my shifty eyes are staring at you)
(wait for it, its gonna be great)

[Merryprankster]

Punchdrunk, you're flat out wrong.

Ethics and being a decent human being go together.

Self-defense is an interesting add-on to life that has next to nothing to do with spiritual development or ethics.

If you want to be martially enlightened, study an MA.
If you want to be spiritually enlightened, seek the appropriate training.

If you are trying to challenge yourself, and grow, either will do. But don't confuse growth as a person by setting goals and sticking to them with spiritual enlightenment.

[rubthebuddha]

a lack of revulsion to violence does not preclude insanity. boxing is a violent sport, and i watch it from time to time. does that make me insane? thai boxing is really violent, and several boxers die every year in the ring, but i like to watch it. does that make me insane? or, better yet, does that make about 90 percent of thai people insane because they love to watch it?

or is it rather appreciation for the art practice and acceptance of that violence? i don't go out and hope that every time alex gong fights someone that he gets a chance to end his opponent's life with an elbow to the back of the head. rather, i'd like to see him fight well against an opponent who fights well, with both fighthers able to still train soon after the fight. by the same token, i don't like a high-scoring baseball game as much as i like a pitchers' duel, because the quality of the event is more appealing than the flash.

so am i insane because i accept certain types of violence when they are acknowledged and accepted by all parties involved? jf springer knows what he's getting himself into in a challenge match -- he's not deluded to its potential consequences. rather, he accepts them and continues. does that make him insane?

nope. i'd say he's a lot more sane than people who abhor violence for the sake of abhorring violence. at least he thinks about what's going on in depth before making a judgment, rather than just denouncing something out of hand. anyone who would just categorize something without giving it thought isn't insane, just dense.

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

why not just call a friendly (or unfriendly) bare kunckle, full contact, sparring match where all most anything goes a fight?

calling this type of contest sparring belittles it in my opinion.

obviously there is a risk of getting maimed, but this should be low if both fighters are of decent skill and understand they are going in there not to blind someone for life. the risk of getting killed should be almost nil.

let's word it your way and see how dumb it sounds.

i had my share of unfriendly, bare kunckle, full contact sparring matches in highschool where almost anything went.

see . .. sounds retarded.

on the flip side these were not "self defence" situations such as you defined.

if two individuals wish to fight eachother to test skill or settle some differences they are fighting but not fighting to kill or maim. i can't understand why this is beyond you.

[JF Springer]

as far as i know martial means war..

-Correct and war is conflict that can be waged on many levels. By way of example, Three Steps Forward is a common prescribed format in Southern systems. Sometimes it's translated as Three Battles. Most people understand this to mean the opponent is engaged in three directions. On a different level the formula is a way of waging war with the self. The three battles that are waged, or the three steps taken forward (denoting progress or improvement), are done in order to unify the self. Mind-Body-Spirit, harmony of thought-word-deed.

if u arent in it for self defense you are a soldier?

-As a matter of fact, a former soldier. ODA 735 & 726 (Hollywood's "A Team"), A Company, 1st Battalion, 7th Special Forces Group (Airborne). Combat veteran, veteran of foreign wars. Thanks for asking.

of course kungfu can kill... duh. I never said that was wrong. your gonna die in a challenge match??? or kill someone??

-So it goes.

your a joke like ralek.

-I beg to differ and if you find me so "funny" then by all means come see me in person and we will determine whether you find me even remotely humorous at arms distance.

ethics arent invented to be "nice" or spiritual. they are to make a safer society. Thats why ethics and selfdefense (chinese or not) go together.

-Whether they "go together" is a matter of personal preference. I do not teach ethics or social etiquette or anything beyond a highly refined system of producing destructive force in the context of violent encounter. Nor do I personally practice or train in a unified or codified system as you understand it.

I will not challenge anyone here, but i have defended myself on numerous occasions, and i know others who have been unsuccesful.

-Irrelevant

The effects of both last a long time.

-Not always, sometimes the outcome is final and quick.

Violence is truly horrific.

-Perhaps, all depends on where you've been and what you've done. A matter of personal standards.

All sane people have a natural revulsion to it.

-Nonsense.

Go ahead beat up weaklings and feel tough.

-Huh?

I know inside it still hurts.

-Rubbish, as a "psychic" you would be well advised to keep your day job.

Go ahead insult me, call me weak. I am strong enuf to take it child.

-Your mouth has over amped your a$$. Keep a civil tongue in your mouth and mind well what your parents taught you.

Ask yourself what u fight for...

-Did that many years ago and I am still satisfied with the answer.

[punchdrunk]

Its funny your a spec ops souldier threatening a child!!! And now threatening someone over the internet?? Why?? I would think you should be very sure of your own ability and not care about a forum filled with amatuers! Heck you could probably get in a NHB contest if you wanted right? Im not being sarcastic here. Not to threaten your ego but why do you want to hurt people? You havent really killed someone in a challenge match haveyou? I mean thats a pretty flippant answer you gave. It just doesnt seem like someone like that would be on a kungfu forum challenging strangers. With the skills you should have this all would be moot anyway. Please if you are so deadly do not kill the kids you meet on the net. I am serious. When i said shameful it originally referred to just the challenge, but murder is worse.

As for the bare nuckle highschool scraps.. ya that is a fight and yes sometimes people die or get permanently injured. Yes and its not sparring.

I realise i have different morals and ethics than both of you and Im not trying to be arrogant but please rather than attack people just continue to insult me. Its safer for everyone.

[yenhoi]

wow!

At first i thought i agreed with punchdrunk - the kfo main forum is very polluted.

I liked the idea about a general discussion board.

I also kinda thought punchdrunk was an okay guy until he started fu(king with JF Springer.

:(

jerk.

[straight blast]

A good natured challenge match is a good thing. If nothing else, it gets you exposure to people/styles that you might never otherwise experience.

A stupid one is a different matter altogether.

It's not that hard to tell the difference. :rolleyes:

I once put up with a lame a$$ friend of a different style putting s**t on my Muay Thai for six months. Finally I challenged him, but he didn't want to fight. So I told him to shut up about Muay Thai or prove his theories. He's left it alone since then.

IMO that is a good challenge match because nobody got hurt. But if the match had gone ahead I'd have taught him a lesson.

Fighting in general isn't a good idea, but sometimes enough is enough. I'm more embarrased that I let it go on for so long than that I was willing to fight.

[Ryu]

:( God this turned out bad didn't it? Funny how a post about how unethical challenges and insults are, becomes just that....
(That's the ego at work...from lots of people)

Straight blast said it best when he said "It's not that hard to tell the difference. :rolleyes: "

Absolutely. As I've always said...motivation and mindset play a HUGE part in why something is right or wrong.
I've had friendly challenge matches before...others that weren't so friendly and indeed were because of ego (mine)
But they taught me about myself. Now I try to get away from the ego driven challenges (which I agree are not in the best interest) and put some reality into "friendlier" ones. But..unfortunately..(for men in general I think LOL) Ego is a very serious thing. :(
I think it plays a subconscious part in a lot we do. But testing skills in challenge matches are not wrong in my opinion, granted the fighters hold themselves professionally.

Ryu

[DelicateSound]

Ryu just said it for me.

PD, unless you've been here to experience the recent Ralek behaviour, you have no idea. No offence :) but you've missed a hell of a lot. JF is in the right.

[jon]

Your coments are off the mark and your point is lacking in merit.
Exactly why are you angry at JF Springer?
Is it becouse he sticks up for his art when challenged publicly or the fact that he has no problem qualifying his view?
You start off by telling us to all grow up and then procede to hurl insults at JF Springer for not seeing things your way.
Have you ever considered the fact that Ralek not only is capable of but actualy now HAS backed out of the challenge?
If he WANTS to fight and someone has taken up the offer then its his own stupid fault.
JF Springer has never forced him or pushed him he has simply answered the challenge. The challenge in the first instance was not only rude but personaly insulting and Ralek has gone on continue his insults and child like games. How can you be angry at a man for sticking up for the art he has been given to treasure and the skills he has worked hard to evolve?

If your going to throw stones at someone then pick the right person! If you did a little more research before posting this 'everyone but me is a moron' post then we wouldnt be here.

[Cipher]

You all know good and well that TCMA people in China in the past have never had challenge matches between master and students to test their skillz. I mean all of the stories of ancient and recent tournaments and challenges between people defending their art never really took place, and all of the rooftop fights are just fairy tales. The students training in the temples of China never really meet after training all day so they can fight more and perfect their art, it all just a lie. (Dripping with sarcasm)

Really though if you train and never do any kind of real time sparing then you will suck at fighting, I have never in my life seen a school or teacher that does not agree to some extent that sparring hard or with light contact is necessary to put what you lean into effect. This does not mean you have to go pick fights to learn how to fight, but meeting a challenge friendly or foe is traditional too if you want to get technical.

[red5angel]

Punch Drunk, I think although your intentions are well meant, they are still naive if applied on a general basis. For you, the thoughts you have are ok, but to apply them to others is ridiculous. I just had a discussion going a day or two ago on violent behaviour and what is right and wrong. I would like to say that first, dont ever tell a soldier that violence is right or wrong, we know, we accepted as part of our life for however long we served, and for some of us, it taught us a greater respect fo rit. This happens sometimes when you are willing to lay your life down for others.
We are all MA here, atleast most of us anyway, which means we have accepted some level of violent behaviour, whether considered honorable or not, we are willing to use it in a violent act some for defense, some for sport, and some for what you might term evil. For those of us who do it responsibly, we can have respect for each other, and the other people we cross paths with in our daily lives, most of the people I work with or run into infrequently have no ideaI am a martial artist. But when I meet with a martial brother, then we meet on a different level, we understand some of the underlying choices I have outlined above. Challenge matches fall into this in that most of us are curious, about other MAs', about our skill level, and the skill level of each other. to test those in the ring is ok, its ok when two people get together on equal terms, and equal means accepting risk with a challenge, and the idea that although we arent trying to seriously hurt each other, it happens.
A good example would be my old karate class. Two of our blackbelts were sparring when one tried to thro the other and they got tangle, a shoulder sprain happened (we thought at first it may be broken), but the guy who did the damage, picked the other off of the floor, walked him to his car and took him to the hospital, they both came back laughing later on. My instructor landed a good one to my ribs that made me hurt for a week, he knocked me down, knocked the breath out of me, but he stuck out his hand when I was ready and picked me off, made sure I was ok.
If you dont agree with it, thats ok, there are many others who hold similar beliefs, just dont try to make others feel like thier choices are wrong, THATS not right.