Samuel Kwok out?

[Colin]

Hi,
Please forgive me if I speak out of line.
But I just read that Sifu Samuel Kwok has been dis-associated from Master Ip Chun.
The article stated that Sifu Kwok no longer had any association with master Ip Chun & and that he was no longer permitted to use the name Ip Chun in any way relating to his teaching.

I'm not so much trying to find out what happened, but am more shocked that such a high ranking student of Grand Master Ip Chun could offend him to such an extent that he was thrown out of his association.

I feel that it is very sad that splits such as this occur.

regards
Colin................

[Sihing73]

Hello,

I do not want to get into the specifics of what did or did not happen. The situation is a sad one but such things happen. Unless it directly affects someone it is best to leave it alone and let those involved sort it out. Both Yip Chun and Sam Kwok are knowledgable exponents of the system and both deserve respect. I met both several years ago when Yip Chun did a seminar in NYC and Samual Kwok was with him assisiting him. If they are no longer affialiated then I am sure they both had reasons and again, unless it directly affects someone it is best to leave speculating about it alone.

Just an opinion.

Peace,

Dave

[Ish]

Does anyone know for sure if that is true and/or what happened

[sanjia]

Colin, I assume that the statement you read was from Michael Tse's Qi Magazine?
Thats where I read it. So one can only assume that it is true.

Mark S

[hunt1]

Yes it is true.Yip Chun was upet because Sam brought some students to hong kong as he does every year and trained with Yip Ching.Sam has been training with Yip Ching for several years in addition to Yip Chun.Sam,his students and Yip Ching took a trip without Yip Chun.This was seen as a slap in the face by Yip Chun hence Yip Chun stripped Sam of all knowledge previously bestowed.

[reneritchie]

This raises and interesting point to me: when do you use your own name? Though I've never seen Kwok sifu, sounds like he's been doing WCK for a good while, has his own students, and is well established.

Humans are human, and relationships wax and wane over time, in family, in friendship, and in martial arts. We each walk our own roads, sometimes together for a long time, sometimes for short, yet it remains our own road.

Why are we so worried who is or isn't associated with someone? If their WCK is good, does the association matter?

Rgds,

RR

[old jong]

If you have learned from somebody,you have learned from him and it cannot be erased. He can't stop you from saying that you learned from him. You may be not associated with him business wise but that's it.
Some masters seems to enjoy controling others more than teaching them!
A real Sifu will understand and accept the fact that students "grow up" sometimes and can have their own ideas and ways.It is natural and everybody who is sincere will acknowledge that fact.
The Sifu/student relationship can becomes a warm father/adult son kind and be a lot more valuable for both parties than the usual master/eyes down disciple some old masters seems to favor so much.

[azwingchun]

I completely agree with you on this point. I personally as well as a few of my kung fu brothers have gone through something similar, though it happened for different reasons. I found it kinda humorous when we were told that we basically had lost our ranking. Where? In thier system? I really don't care since I am no longer in that Association. But as was mentioned no one can take away your knowledge. So, did I truely lose my so-called rank? I don't think it matters really, I still have the knowledge that was given to me as well as earned through very hard work and dedication.

I don't know if this is truely a traditional mind set some organizations have (at least this is how it was explained to me), or if it is ego or what. Though to stay away from being critical of certains teachers,Masters and associations, I have to admit this is thier choice to run the schools as they choose. But sometimes I find this a little childish. I once had a teacher who said that a student was like a son, they eventually grow-up and move away. Now speaking as an instructor myself and studying Wing Chun now for over 12 years, I always hope that a student will stay with me for throughout thier martial arts training, but I also know the chance of this is happening is possibly 1 out of 10 students (roughly). This is just my honest opinion. And if a student(s) feel that thay are not getting from me what they feel they are looking for, I encourage them to look somewhere else. Let's face facts, how many of the Masters or teachers in general alive today have left one teacher and trained with another, for whatever reason. Does this make them a bad person or just someone trying to better themselves. As we constanstly discuss various training principles and applications within Wing Chun alone, we can see why someone would maybe want to switch camps to learn other ideas and aspects of thier style. And if a person leaves a teacher or other reasons such as politics, wanting to grow on thier own, etc, then so be it. Again, some of you may disagree but this in my honest opinion.;)

[Chum Kil]

Depending on the reason for leaving is very important. Did he leave on his own or was he let go, because he owed/stole money that is something I would like to know if I'm going to be a student. Another question comes to mind how did he become a Master or Sifu? Some leave one organization a student and form their own organization and make themselves Master's. Some Master's like to hide everything about their training. There are alot of moral issues to look at when chosing an instructor. This has happened to me here in Utah, lucky I found out in time. I agree 100% with moving on with your training if you do not feel what you are doing at the present moment and know what is expected in the future. You will always have what you have learnt.

[reneritchie]

Since "sifu" is not a rank, you can't become a "sifu". Anyone who takes a student, regardless of time spent or skill attained, is a "sifu". (It's also used as an honorific for taxi drivers, cooks, etc.). Master is also not a rank. If you've mastered something, you're a master at it.

Sometimes teachers disappoint students, sometimes students teachers. Again, humans are humans. Knowing the background can be useful, both of the association and the former member, since your own personal opinion may lean one way or the other.

Rgds,

RR

[azwingchun]

I agree.;)

[old jong]

I agree totally with you on the real meaning of the word Sifu.
It is not a rank. Still it is often sold for thousands of dollars as one!

[DelicateSound]

All this infighting :rolleyes:

I'm having second thoughts about taking up WC, I'll tell you.

[Gluteus Maximus]

Originally posted by DelicateSound
All this infighting :rolleyes:

I'm having second thoughts about taking up WC, I'll tell you.


Don't let the smoke blind you.

[Chum Kil]

In today's world Sifu or Master does mean something at least in the American way of Martial Arts. It should show how much that person knows of the system and how much time he/she has spent. I know that Sifu means teacher or ****her/uncle type figure. I myself am teaching someone WC, but I would in no way consider myself a Sifu. In your definition I would be. I can see where you guy's are coming from, but again in today's world I disagree.

[reneritchie]

Hi Chum Kiu,

I see your point. Yes, today, all sorts of things are done. Some use sifu as a title, put it on their business cards or make it parts of their email addresses. I've even seen some use Sihing for a junior sifu, Sigung for a senior. People can and do all sorts of things, sometimes for the better, sometimes not. The danger in thinking Sifu is a rank or title is that sometimes it could afford someone the presumption of skill they might not have.

As background, who they learned from and for how long (not just years but days in the months of those years) is probably more telling. In decision making, what they can do (is there something of value they can teach you, are they willing to teach it to you) is probably better. And some like to factor in whether the person is actually a decent human being or not as well 8)

Rgds,

RR

[Chum Kil]

Good thought on the subject.


"As background, who they learned from and for how long (not just years but days in the months of those years) is probably more telling."

This I agree with you 100%. Some instructors spend most of the time doing seminars around the world than teaching their students. I would rather have an instructor that's around everyday and learn from him than learning from seniors 90% of the time (I not saying I could not learn from them, but it's not the same). This is more important to me than to be associated with some big name in WC.

[Colin]

I feel it is correct in many ways to look at the relationship of teacher to student, as father to son.
I know within the western world we pay our money and take our training, but the study of kung fu is so much more than just attending a college course.

If it were nothing more than this, then "lineage" that is so important to many of us would become irrelevent.

How many of us tell prospective employers the names of our college lecturers? very few if any!

It is not deemed important who taught us. ( Unless you study at Oxford/Cambridge or the US eqivilent ). Yet within martial arts the name of who taught you is in many ways as important as what you learn.

To have been a student of a great Master, is in many ways like having a reference from a previous employer.

The years spent training can say that the student was a person of good character, with high moral value. Else the Master would not teach them.
( We hope).

Therefore to have an affilation to, hence having the blessing of the Master adds more than just validation to a teachers art. It also adds respectibility and hopefully an insight to the good character of the Sifu.

This all being said you cannot take the knowledge away from the student, but instead it is the respectibility and good name of the expelled sifu that is raised as an issue.

In many ways this is a far greater punishment than it initially seems. For to be dis-associated by your master is like being dis-owned by your father and written out of his legacy.

This is where my sadness lies!

It must be just as painful for the father as for the son to have their relationship torn apart.

To be hurt so bad that you would cast out your own son, must be the most painful and regrettable act a father can do.

I wish only good things to all those involved in the incident, and hope that in time a reconcilliation might be possible, as regret of what might have been is a hard thing to live with in years to come.


regards
Colin........

[reneritchie]

Very interesting Colin! It is like father and son (even the martial/religious version of Sifu means Father/Teacher). But the flip side is that every son has to grow up to stand on their own two feet eventually. In the old days, things were different. Teachers often died (it could be very rare for one to know one's Sigung, for example, or for them to still be around), moved, or students moved or went to study with others, and communication was nowhere near as easy as it is now. As a result, when students came into their own, they often did not have their own Sifu around anymore. There was not the baggage of dividing up rice-bowls, of association fees, of so much politics (though there was, of course, some).

Since there are more generations around at the same time now, and communicating is easier, and financial and egotistical pressures still exist for some, it can lead to problems. Sometimes the student causes them, sometimes the teacher, sometimes meddlesome third parties. If all involved are secure and self-realized, it would probably be minimal, but that's not always human nature.

So, just as the bird dropping from the nest may be forced to fly, the student may be forced to stand on their own. Some have not the background (or there may be other factors) and will crash. Others will soar.

BTW- Also like a family, disfunctionality can appear hereditary in that many students turn out like their teachers, for good or ill, and sometimes like things do not attract.

[Colin]

reneritchie you also speak wisely.
All children fly the nest at some time, and many find that their relationship with their parents improves grealy once they have left. As there is no longer as much confilct between them.

Colin.....

[burnsypoo]

I think that some people like to talk about the unfortunates of another lineage, simply because it is not about them. In the immortal words of a Homer J. Simpson, "It's funny, cause it's not me."

Some people see it, and feel better about their own lineage. They bring it up on message boards and talk about it in their own clubs/families... creating a sense of superiority or something maybe...?