View Full Version : Pak Mei Pai

10-27-2000, 08:39 AM
Hello all, I am new to this forum so I thought I twould check and see who studies Pak Mei Pai in here. Whether it is Fukien Pak Mei, Futshan Pak Mei Pai, Mo E-Mei Shuan Pak Mei, Guangdong Pak Mei, Cheung Lai Chen Hong Kong Pak Mei, Vietnamese Pak Mei, or any other subsytem of Pak Mei lets discuss all aspects. First off why does everyone believe all other subsystems do not exist, this is the same case as in Bak Fu Pai too. So what do all of you think about the influence that Fung Do Duk and Pak Mei had on each other? /infopop/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

Teet Lohan
10-29-2000, 03:14 AM
Fu Mei,

So is there a specific Pak Mei style from both the Shaolin Temple at Fukien and the Taoist temple at O'Mei? Are there kuens similar with CLC Pak Mei, do they rely on more ging use? Do these arts rely on the eight Taoist directions, do they use the 6 aspects of ging to bring the art closer to the elements. With these new styles of Pak Mei are we dealing with more circular movements, more linear movements, or more triangular movements? I would just like to hear more about the Pak Mei arts that are not from the CLC clan. I am not saying that I think these other styles are not real because they are not from CLC, I would just like to know where they are from!! What is their lineage tree to Fukien?? Does Fukien now have their own Pak Mei that is older than the O'Mei Pak Mei that you are talking about? I would just like to know how all this relates back to Pak Mei at Fukien or O'Mei. I would like to know where all these different styles come from. Also, what do you know of Bak Fu Pai?

Wo Sheung Dit Ga Sah

10-29-2000, 08:00 AM
The lineage of Pak Mei is probably not what you think it is iron lohan. First off it does not stop and start only with clc, instead it thrives in many directions. Pak Mei went to the O'Mei Shuan Jee with Fung Do Duk, so it is probable that both Pak Mei and Fung Do Duk taught there gung fu to the Kwong Wai Monk. It was not until after Fung Do Duk left this temple that he lived with Doo Tin Yin. The monk Kwong Wai passed all of his knowledge to Fah Yuen who was Cheung Lai Chen's sifu. Fah Yuen also taught Ling Sing and this is where the differences occur.
The Kwong Wai monk taught Fah Yuen these "so called" five kuens of Pak Mei? He could have taught him many more. The five kuens that Pak Mei taught the Kwong Wai monk where probably five kuens that he and Fung Do Duk came up with to be the most important combining everything from the 8 powers, to the six gings, to the five elements. clc pak mei does not teach only these five kuens, they have about 24 different kuens, some with weapons. I have seen some chow fook (not the same choy fok as choy lay fut) lineages that trace to Ling Sing that have thirteen kuens. When dealing with pak mei you can not look at it as just linear, circular, or triangular in nature or you are not dealing with the 8 different Taoist powers. Old-School pak mei is something more flowing, it is flowing softly until the time to be hard. It does not have to be flowing in a linear, circular, or triangular fashion. It has to use all three with ging. Guard centerline hard, everything will turn out fine when you decide to use your ging. It is everything that lies in nature that we just do not see. This is the same truth in Bak Fu Pai. Fung Do Duk was Pak Mei's elder and he hightened his art to something more devastating than Pak Mei, nis art flowed even more with the waters and the winds, the nature of this art is on the brink of scary! I have heard that some of Fung Do Duk's teachings of Bak Fu Pai where the same as Pak Mei's five kuens. Not until later though did Fung Do Duk teach diligent students even more advanced material than these five cherished kuens. I have heard that Doo Tin Yin's first son taught the original 5 as a basis for his Bak Fu Pai and this is Fukien Pak Mei which has these 5 pak mei forms with 5 bak fu pai forms. This does not seem like that many kuens but in the old days masters where not worried about how many kuens they had instead they had a dozen great kuens that were practiced because the masters knew they worked. These kuens are what real souther gung fu is about. It is about the basic Mo Sheung Dit Ga Sow ( Daoist Mountain Monk Removing Robe, or Monk Disrobing) Tiat Arhat. HEHEHEHEHEHEHE!!! :coo

10-29-2000, 07:42 PM
Fu Mei I'm wondering where this information is from? By the spellings I'm curious about the source of your terms like Fung Do Duk, Kwong Wai, Doo Tin Yin etc. Where would you get the bit about Doo Tin Yin's son teaching half Bak Mei, half Bak Fu and why doesn't CLC learn from the Kwong Wei monk in your story?

10-29-2000, 11:44 PM
Hello Mo Q:

Forgive me if my spelling is a little weird on some gung fu terms, I try to put it as I heard it while studing. Cheung Lai Chuen learned Pak Mei, Bak Mei, Bai Mei, from the Kwong Wai Jee monk Jok Fah Yuen. Fah Yuen learned from Kwong Wai. It would be impossible for clc to have learned from Kwong Wai because Kwong Wai would have been dead before Cheung Lai Chuen was born. Fah Yuen was the successor at Kwong Wai on Er Mei San, O Mei Shuan, etc. HAHA!! Jok Fah Yuen taught Ling Sang and Cheung Lai Chuen. Ling Sang taught Lee Mon and Lam Shek, and this is where the differences come from. Both Lee Mon and Lam Shek taught many people gung fu because they were some of the main triads the government was after. There would also be differences taught from Ng Nam Kung who was one of the three successors to Cheung Lai Chuens Pak Mei.

So all these differences show differences in style that are striving for a certain purpose, defend until time to attack and possibly kill.

On reply to the many terms related to Bak Fu Pai, Bai Fu Pai, Pak Fu Pai, mainly the story of Doo Tin Yin's son, these are stories that are passed down in the Fukien Bai Fu Pai lineage. I heard this from my father in-law who is from Fukien. He studied Pak Mei and Bai Fu Pai from birth because a great uncle of his was a cousin of the Monk Jok Fah Yuen. This bai fu pai was transmitted to the monk Jok Fah Yuen from the Kwong Wai monk but does not have as many kuens as Master Doo Wai's family inherited Bak Fu Pai. Hopefully, this helps out, later we can discuss a few kuens.

Fu /infopop/emoticons/icon_cool.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

Shaolin Master
10-30-2000, 12:29 AM
Hi everyone...Same Topic I see! Hmmm

Fu Mei ... welcome /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Lets start of Simple,
You Father in Law's name, Township in Fujian that he received tuition, BFP was it really called that ?. Fung Dao De senior of Bai Mei ! are you sure ? So what are the kuens(forms) that you have been exposed to in both of your Bai Mei and BFP ?
Trust me this will all become pretty heated up soon... so get ready /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif.

Thank you for your perspective
Regards to you (& MoQ my friend)

Shi Chan Long

10-30-2000, 01:06 AM
look you guys wanted a different story, SO SHUT UP AND LISTEN. the truth will be out soon. you think you know it all shaolin master(lohan tik ga sar) thats what you should do. your not knowledgable after all.

moq- i wont even start on you. you dont practice kung fu. hehehe

fu mei- i appreciate your story, and knowledge.
are the principles and theories the same as clc pak mei. /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

10-30-2000, 02:41 AM
FuMei- It was the MIXING of the spellings that was throwing me off and the PARTICULAR spellings that seem to be from elsewhere, but I'm really wondering about this 10 form "Fukien Bak Mei" from Doo Tin Yin's nameless son that is half BFP and half Bak Mei...Taught outside the Family???
What do you mean not as many kuens as Doo's BFP? and what does Doo Tin Yin's son have to do with Kwong Wai?

Oh I forgot,
Wou Shun Tit Gar Sar

[This message was edited by MoQ on 10-30-00 at 06:49 PM.]

Shaolin Master
10-30-2000, 02:54 AM

How nice you are now. Remember my post in the BFP practitioners thread...where I mentioned 5 Bai Hu Quan Sets. And Ask Fubokuen about the 5 Bai Mei Sets That I mentioned. You have no Idea that Fu Mei's Teachers may even be people I know. So far there is not all that much enlightening material. You must have short term memory. Anyway doesn't matter lets wait for Fu Mei and compare need not be offensive !!

Shi Chan Long

10-30-2000, 03:47 AM
im only SH!TTING you guys, im more interested then you believe me. shaolin what were the names of those forms again ive lost the post. tell me are you a gwa lo?

moq i dont understand, who is steve? im also interested in the bfp part as well.
im only stirring up the pot... again.



10-30-2000, 03:53 AM
Shaolin Master was right, it is getting pretty heated up in here for some strange reason. I am a little not understanding as to why I should have to tell who my father-in-law is and my total lineage when no one else is. My father-in-law's name is Jok Se Wu. He was born in Xiamen but moved into the capital Fuzhou when he was a young boy. He studied with his great-uncle until he died and then studied more under his father. His great uncle (Jok Lee San) studied the Pak Mei arts with Jok Fah Yuen at O'Mei Shuan, Er'Mei San, etc. Another thing I want to say is that I am really not completely sure that Fung Do Duk, Fung Doe Dak, Feng Tao Tak, Feung Dao Dok, was Pak Mei's elder, that is just the tradition that I heard, I was not in the presence of the two great masters.HEHEHE HAHAHA.

I am not totally sure that Fung Do Duk was Pak Mei's elder that has just been the usual story because Fung Do Duk's White Tiger system has been extremely secretive, even more so than Pak Mei. It was not completely closed off though because masters always exchanged knowledge especially during the ching dynasty. It was not just a father son thing because they had friends who were master too. Mo-Q, Doo Tin Yin, Doo Ten Yen's unnamed son was said to have taught a small group of advanced practitioners in the Zhangzhou area of Fujian, Fukien, etc. He was said to have taught these masters in order to help them survive the harsh times of the Ching govt. Of course this was said just like every other chinese legend. His son was said to have left the Zhangzhou and Fuzhou masters with 5 Pak Mei Pai Kuens and 5 Bak Fu, Pak Fu, Bai Fu Pai Kuens. He only taught these five kuens outside the family but he did not teach the "beyond advanced" kuens that his father received from Fung Do Duk, Feng Tao Tak, etc. To my knowledge, most of the high level Bak Fu Pai has still never been taught to anyone outside of the Doo bloodline, I am not sure though. Of course I have my beliefs on all the mess that Grandmaster Doo has got himself into in America, but hey, that is America! Do you study Bak Fu Pai, Bai Fu Pai, Pak Fu Pai, Mo Q? If so, what kuens are you working on?

Fierce Tiger Are you a CLC Pak Mei practitioner? The different studies that I have been through with Pak Mei lead me to believe that there are quite a few differences and similarities in the Pak Mei that is out there and waiting and the CLC Pak Mei. I am in no way trying to disrespect the CLC clan. Their Pak Mei has as much bound to Pak Mei as any other. To answer you question though fierce tiger, there are many similarities and differences, comparisons and contrasts between CLC Pak Mei and other Pak Mei styles.

Shaolin Master, I wanted to give you a list of a few kuens that I have studied for a while, but never long enough, not even when I am 90.

Pak Mei Pai:

Gic Boe Choy, Chik Bo Chui,--Straight Step Fist
Shek Sze Saap Gee--Crossing Fists Kuen
Gow Bo Tui Kuen, Gau Bo Tui Kuen--9 Step Push Form
Ying Jow Nam Kiu--Eagle Claw linking arms
Samm Mon Ba Gua--Three Gates 8 Diagrams
Say Mon Ba Gua--Four Gates 8 Diagrams
Mount Fu Choy Lum, Chui Lum--Fierce Tiger exiting the forest.
Mm Hong Mo Choy Kuen--Five Elements Striking Fist Form.

Bak Fu Pai:

The five kuens (actually there are seven because the chong bo kuen and the fu bo kuen have two kuens each but are taught in connection with the other. In practicing they connect) that I am reffering to as taught with Fukien Pak Mei are as follows:

1. Shao Lo Chung Bo Kuen--Small Pressing/Thrusting Step Form.
1. Dai Lo Chung Bo Kuen--Large Pressing/Thrusting Step Form.
2. Mo Shan Dit Ga Sow--Daoist Mountain Monk Disrobing.
3. Mount Bak Fu Choy Lum--Fierce White Tiger Exiting the Forest (this kuen is said to have been created as a second kuen to Pak Mei's fierce tiger set).
4. Shao Lo Fu Bo Kuen--Small Tiger Step Form
4. Dai Lo Fu Bo Kuen--Large Tiger Step Form
5. Mo Lung Ying Kuen--Dragon's Devil Form

I also wanted to tell Mo Q that Grandmaster Doo does have more forms than just these 5 because his is family inherited. These five kuens are what the monk Kwong Wai was supposedly taught by Fung Do Duk. When Doo Tin Yin's unnamed son was teaching a select few, this is what he taught them according to tradition. The reason he only taught this is because his dad did not want his son teaching anything that he had inherited from Fung Do Duk. Instead he wanted his son to teach something that was also being taught somewhere else. So where else? The monk Kwong Wai was teaching these five kuens to his successor Jok Fah Yuen.

Tigers Playing, Dragons Transforming

F /infopop/emoticons/icon_cool.gif :co

10-30-2000, 04:10 AM
Well now, what have we here? This is really fascinating, guys. I am abit excited, all I see around here is BFP bashing of sorts and I weary of it frankly.

So this is really interesting FuMei. I have alot of things to say, but maybe not here.
I really appreciate hearing all this from you. I'll call GM Doo's attention to your post and get his reaction to share.

It is very curious to hear of all these things you speak of. I have seen the 10 forms that Fung Do Duk according to legend, developed on O'mei Shan and only the Chung Bo Kuens and of course Fu Bo Kuens are the same. This may be Bak Mei influenced material since it has the Tin Gong and the Dae Saat Kuens.

Sadly, the Tradition is pretty secretive, so I enjoy talking about BFP, but it is also abit uncomfortable.

[This message was edited by Fubokuen on 10-30-00 at 08:30 PM.]

10-30-2000, 04:14 AM
i have all these pak mei forms, but they are also clc pak mei, i have differnt forms there are drunken forms as well.
mung fu, sup batt mor, gou boy tou are all done with yau kung soft skill at fast speed no tension, these are high level as well as ng ying and ng hung mor.

fu mei- can you tell me more about bfp. why not teach fung do duks kung fu. but teach onlykwong wais kung fu.


Black Fist
10-30-2000, 11:23 AM

Drunken Bak Mei ...Hehehehe.

10-30-2000, 05:57 PM
FuMei/fierce tiger

Wow, you must be happy to have learned the whole system. Perhaps you can help us by shedding some light on the differences between the Pak Mei forms. Do they all have a different meaning behind them? Do they have focus on different aspects of the art?

Regards, Lau

10-30-2000, 07:48 PM
FuMei - Earlier in this thread you mentioned that there are similarities/difference and comparisons/contrasts btwn CLC Pak Mei and the other Pak Mei lineages. Can you please elaborate on this matter(ex. what are some of the similarities/differences). Do you find this to be true when you compare the other Pak Mei lineages(other than CLC) to each other or does this only hold true for CLC Pak Mei?

Thanks in advance.


[This message was edited by Buby on 10-31-00 at 11:53 AM.]

[This message was edited by Buby on 10-31-00 at 11:59 AM.]

10-31-2000, 01:05 AM
yes i have all levels but to finish the system and master it will take the rest of my life. those high level set are to be done with a different power (soft) to beginning sets.
also these beginning sets dont even look like or resemble the high level. most of clc sets are very similar in looks and has differentcombos of the same moves. sup jee, zek see kuen for example.

there are more than 18 forms when you put together all bak me from differnt souces. the ging and principles are all the same as clc. clc learnt from the monk chuk fat wan, so the theories and power source is the same.but i think every teacher has his own way of teaching the art of pak mei thats why theres differnet versions of the art.

peace /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

10-31-2000, 04:29 AM
Hello everyone:

Lau I have in no way finished pak mei, I am just a practitioner.

I think that the similarities and differences in clc pak mei and all other pak mei is sifu influenced. I agree with Fierce Tiger on this. The differences come with more advanced kuens, soft kuens, more fay ging is in these kuens, the ging is what is different!

Fu /infopop/emoticons/icon_cool.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

10-31-2000, 02:25 PM
Hi again,

So it all comes down to the Yau Kung aspect. That's difficult still for me. I'm working on sap pat mo right now but I still feel I use some external force. What do you think is the most important when one has to practice the yau kung? Is it relaxation? someone said earlier that it comes down to 'fast speed no tension'. But imho there must be some tension at the last moment. But only at the last moment.

Any thoughts?

Regards, Lau

"Immortal(s) instructs the Dragon, Serpent, and Crane."
"Sifu(s) transmits the Tiger and the leopard (forms)"

11-01-2000, 12:15 AM
hi lau,
relaxation is the key, these high level forms use lots of waist and fay ging in a relaxed manner.

do you have moving meditations, or chi kung in your bak mei. we do called sup batt sau to help develop high level ging. i have found that you cannot go slow on these forms.

good luck with your sup batt mor kuil

peace /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

11-02-2000, 07:13 PM
FT- What do you mean you have found you cannot go slow on these forms?

11-03-2000, 12:19 AM
i know what you are thinking! but, of course you can go slow and meditate with it. what im saying that when the starts it flows so well that it can seem to get faster and faster, like a snow ball builds. all forms like jik bo ,chong bo can be done slow and build ging and postures.

high level are done no tension as such called yau kung, soft power.

are your bak fu forms like this?

always good to here from you!

11-03-2000, 12:53 AM
your flying phoenix meditations sound interesting, how many forms, meditations are there, are there fighting forms as well?


11-03-2000, 02:25 AM
Yes we have soft speed forms, but the tough part is slow and smoothe. Actually soft and fast is pretty tough too!hahaha *sigh* I hope I live long enough.

The Taoist Fei Fung Sunn Gung(Flying Phoenix Heavenly healing meditations) is a really amazing set of chi gung given to monk Fung Do Duk by the Goddess of Heaven no less. The mandate from heaven was to teach to good people to heal the World, so they CAN be acquired separate from BFP training etc. flying phoenix legend (http://www.bakfupai.com/articles/ffsg.htm)

As far as numbers and amounts I don't know. Only 3 levels have manifest. The first 2 had standing, seated, I have only seen moving from lvl 3. Supposedly, you move on to the next higher/stronger lvl and either teach or forget the old material and you do not have to start at the beginning. These meditations are great. They have a wonderful flow and can be felt immediately. With serious practice...who knows? /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

11-03-2000, 02:54 AM
thankz for the info!

would you say flying phoenix would be the core of chi kung to bak fu or do you use other chi kung in bak fu.

peace /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

11-03-2000, 08:02 PM
FT- The Fei Fung Sunn is a standalone set of chigung for general to ultimate health. It is not part of the BFP gung fu curriculum per se, although hopefully everyone practices what they have of this material.

11-04-2000, 07:28 AM
would you say that it's a more powerful chi kung to your other types in bak fu.

peace /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

11-04-2000, 09:40 AM
From what I know of Bak Fu Pai I think the flying phoenix meds focus more on the health aspect of chi gung. However, like all chi gung, a gung fu practitioner can extract the different applications of technique. The fei fung meds are more chin na oriented with techniques. During the meditations, the wrists are constantly changing and this shows a definite chin na focus.

Fierce tiger, do you practice any iron shirt chi gung with the Pak Mei that you study? I would like to talk about Pak Mei with you. E-mail me at FuMei05@excite.com /if you want to talk about Pak Mei.

Fubokuen, you seem to be very knowledgeable about Bak Fu Pai, Pak Fu Pai. Are you an instructor? I was just wondering if you study Bak Fu Pai or Hong Lin Pai. The reason that I ask is because the link that you gave above goes to joel rizzo's gwoon. So do you study Bak Fu Pai or that red lotus. If you do study Bak Fu Pai then do you study with the grandmaster. I am very curious about Bak Fu Pai but all the inner turmoil because of past students seems to be out of hand. Give me an e-mail at FuMei05@excite.com

F /infopop/emoticons/icon_cool.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

11-04-2000, 10:18 AM
So FuMei, what do you know about the Fei Fung Sunn Gung?

Yes I'm under the GM and I teach a little.

People have a tendency to get out of hand before they are X'd and then, of course, there's nowhere to go but into business.

You'll have to ask Rizzo about the Red Lotus stuff, nobody else knows a thing.

11-04-2000, 11:02 AM
fu mei i sent you a email- you can get me on



11-05-2000, 08:46 AM
Normally I pass on the Pak Mei/Lung Ying articles, but w/these topics popping up everywhere on this forum...I decided to skim thru the article. Nothing illuminating, but I thought it was interesting that someone finally put a couple of form listing:

For Dragon Style...
1) Lung Ying Kuen (Chut Dai You Lo)
2) Sup Luk Dong
3) Sam Yong
4) Ying Jow
5) Lung Ying Mo Kiu
6) Um Ma Gwai Chou
7) Jow Um Ying
8) Wong Lung Chun Sam Gwan

For Bak Mei...
1) Bak Mei Kuen (Sup Yi Tou Lo)
2) Sup Gee Kuen
3) Dan Fut
4) Gow Boy Toy
5) Chut Dim Muy Fah
6) Fu Bow
7) Jui Sam Sing
8) Diu Jeung
9) Um Jow Gum Lung
10) Sup Bat Fung Junh
11) Seung Tao Chai Mei Gwan
12) Seung Chut Sao

Interesting for achieve purposes. Are these fairly complete?

Shaolin Master
11-05-2000, 08:54 AM

There are weapons forms in there but not all. There are many Hand Forms (Essential Ones) missing..Eg.Poison snake forms of Lung Ying Missing, Meng Fu forms of Bak Mei Missing and more ...

thats the media /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif


[This message was edited by ShaolinMaster on 11-06-00 at 01:01 AM.]

thunder fist
11-07-2000, 01:34 AM
aer you a bak mei qualified sifu, under hongkong or china. who has given you your tittle, is your sifu a bak mei sifu or did you just learn some forms?

interested!!! /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Shaolin Master
11-07-2000, 02:00 AM
From China lineages Ermei/Fujian
I outlined details previously I think (BM of HK etc ...more repetition and Forms...different but same)

Enjoy life
Shi Chan Long

12-03-2000, 10:44 PM
I currently study Kung Fu in NYC. However, after reading the article in last months Kung Fu/Qi Gong, I became extremely interested in cross-training in Pak Mei. I did find 1 school that teaches this art (on Fulton St., Manhattan). I was just wondering if anyone here could recommend any schools in the lower Manhattan area to me. ? ? ?
I know there has to be more than one school in NYC.
Any info would be appreciated.undefinedundefined

wisdom mind
12-04-2000, 12:09 AM
as far as i know the pak mei is only on fulton in nyc....any others should be questioned thoroughly for authenticity.....

12-04-2000, 05:30 PM
Thanks for the input. I was gonna go check that school out anyway. The info on the website describes it as a pretty solid organization. I just wish class was offered more than 2x's a week.