Neijia for real self-defense part II

[Chris McKinley]

Since the other thread seemed to have meandered away from the topic a bit, I'll ask a related question.

Who's practice includes training against common attacks such as the haymaker/suckerpunch, the jab/cross/hook, the clinch, the tackle, various grabs, weapon attacks, etc.?

For those who claim to train for real self-defense but whose training does not include ANY of these types of attacks, I'd like to hear your argument as to how you justify not including them. I'll readily admit that I am biased in favor of their inclusion, but I'm not trying to trap anyone; I would seriously like to hear a well-defended rationale.

[miscjinx]

"Who's practice includes training against common attacks such as the haymaker/suckerpunch, the jab/cross/hook, the clinch, the tackle, various grabs, weapon attacks, etc.?"

That about sums up my old tai chi class. I forget though, what is the clinch again? I forgot the term.

Before the class dissolved because the teacher moved to another state and I moved elsewhere in the state, we would also sometimes get together and train scenarios...waiting at a bus stop and mugging attempt, sitting at a bar and someone is trying to start a fight, etc, etc, etc.

[taooftaichi]

In my own past training, and in the classes I teach, the examples you mentioned were included as valuable practice of self defense.

I also include drills that are designed to use Tai Chi "principles" rather than only specific form techniques. My feeling is that although it is extremely helpful to practice defenses against what may be considered to be "common" self defense examples, one must still be able to respond spontaneously to unexpected or unusual attacks. (It is probably impossable or impractical to try and think of and practice every possible self defense situation and arrive at a reasonable training regimen.)

I think that those teachers who only focus on Tai Chi principles may also develop good self defense skills, but it would seem it's likely to take an exceptionaly long, and perhaps unnecessary-in relation to self defense-time.

Having found need to use Tai Chi in self defense several times (thankfully, sucessfully), I try to include "realistic" self defense training in my teaching, for those students who desire it.

[bamboo_ leaf]

I got a bad feeling about this. :(
It’s a trap, I know it is. Feel the force Luke!!!


In my own training and teachings, I don’t teach these things directly.

I feel it is more important to help the person acquire the skill of the art. To talk of fighting and self defense in the beginning for me tends to put the focus on something that is far off and is acquired as a part of the whole training process not the sole aim of the training process.

As some one said in another thread there are many other easier ways of leaning fighting or self-defense then IMA arts.

So I start people with ideas and training’s that will later allow them to understand the usage at a later date.

I think for most the preparation takes about a yr. or so.
i don't teach comercaly now / have in the past.

[EARTH DRAGON]

My sincere apologizes for ruining your other thread. I did not meant to intnetionally misguide the thread from my comments... again I am sorry............

[boy_analog]

One of the better students at our school (better than me) was jumped by 5 guys a few months ago. They were a little younger than him (roughly high-school age, apparently), but a couple were also bigger than him.

He sent them packing, and only copped a couple of bruises. It all happened at a train station and was caught by a security camera. I'm told that some of the guys have been picked up by the police since.

At our school we don't train by simulating muggings. Instead, we just train power, sensitivity and technique. It seems to work. :)

[Chris McKinley]

boy analog,

I'm of course glad that your friend is OK and that he is one of the very few statistically to survive a real assault by multiple attackers with anything less than serious injury. You said that your school doesn't train by simulating muggings. Does it train against any of the other common attacks I mentioned? Also, you said you just train power, sensitivity and technique...all of which are of course essential. In this statement, are you saying that your training of technique is not done against an opponent, or that it is not done against an opponent trying to execute any of the common attacks I described? If so, then what type of attacks are you training against?

[bamboo_ leaf]

Just out of curiosity.

Dose it really matter what shape the force comes in. As long as you can really hear it, and really neutralize it, keeping your mind and body relaxed so that they may respond.


This not asked as in a right or wrong just wondering. :)

[Chris McKinley]

Ultimately, no...of course not. However, the level of sensitivity that requires takes years to develop fully. In the intervening years until you get there, the physiological concept of specificity holds strong sway. In other words, for someone at the advanced end of the spectrum, reading and responding to the other person's center may be the only thing necessary. For someone at the beginner's end of things, WHAT you train against can be just as important as HOW you train against it. I would suggest the answer to your question all depends on from where along that spectrum you're answering it.

[boy_analog]

Chris:

We don't really practice any specific scenarios. That said, when you're learning a defensive technique, it's natural for you to want your partner to try to attack you in a variety of ways, so there's likely to be some crossover.

Our teacher is quite adamant that technique is less important than power and sensitivity. He's far and away the best martial artist I've ever seen, but he can be a little hard to understand at times. I think that this is a small price to pay. :)

The guy who was attacked (his name is Patrick) has a pretty solid background in Wing Chun. I too used to train in Wing Chun, though I didn't advance as far as Patrick.

In fact, most of the people here seem to have done something else before coming to our school. This is probably a mixed blessing. On the positive side of the ledger, having a background in a more "obvious" style will attune you to exploring the martial applications of our training, as well as having a broader appreciation of the kinds of techniques that one might have to face. On the negative side, it can sometimes block your understanding if you try to comprehend an internal style within the framework of an external style.