Wah Lum, 7*OR EIGHT STEP

[fiercest tiger]

Guys and gals im not trying to start anything, but what is better out of these 3 mantis styles?

i watched a wah lum demo video and it looked like wushu, i fell asleep! Is that style an original mantis system?:( :rolleyes:

why all the splits and jump kicks in wah lum? is it because of the spring leg or tan tui?:confused:

[MightyB]

Everybody here really likes what they do, so it's really up to you to decide which style of PM suits you best.

I can't speak for the other systems, but I can tell you a little about 7*.

7* is quick and tight with a lot of hand techniques. It seems to be the most rigid or external of the PM systems. It is designed for close quarters in-your-face fighting with an emphasis on a quick and decisive kill. There isn't a lot of kicking. Most kicks are low, mainly shin, groin, and gut kicks. The techniques are progressive in nature meaning they build upon one another (if the guy does this, then you do that, if he blocks, you do this, if he blocks again, you do this, etc.). It also is a very active defense system, as opposed to a reactive defense. Active defense is if the guy attacks, your defensive counter attack is immediate and simultaneously executed with their attack. A reactive defense would be if the guy attacks, you receive the attack and then counter attack (karate does this).

I hope this helps,

The B

[jon]

Dude thats like asking whats better out of Bak Mei, Southern Mantis and YKM.
You wouldnt be turning green and thinking of moving to under a bridge would you:p
hehe just j\k F.T


lol i just realised the irony of my own post:rolleyes:
Of course you will simply say YKM:p

[woliveri]

What's YKM?

[EARTH DRAGON]

I would have to say 8 step, simply becuse it is all the effectiveness of all the other praying mantis systems with superior footwork, but then agin I am partial to 8 step becuse thats my system.. however you have to judge for yourself, but just remember the style is only as good as the teacher and even though you did'nt like Walum master chan pui is a awsome teacher and a great martial artist. and could make you like walum.

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

fiercest tiger
Wah Lum is not an 'original' mantis system. It is a mixture of Tam Tui and Jut Sow. What you see in our demos are standard forms modified for show. Wah Lum is heavy on the leg work because of the Tam Tui roots. Generally a show form will have a lot of flashy moves taken from all the forms and put into one form. Standard curriculum forms either have no flash or 1 or 2 flashy moves. When I put together a show form I take a form I like and take out some of the boring (but effective) moves and add some of the slick looking moves from other forms. After all it is a show. If you want to see standard Wah Lum forms go to the nearest school and watch a class.

Also, I'm not a fan of Wu Shu but don't equate flash with not being effective. I've seen some applications for Wu Shu moves. I think a better word to describe some of these moves would be 'exotic'.

[NorthernMantis]

Like my si hing Hua Lin said we don't do our true forms in public.It's usually modified.The flashy moves are just for show.However since you're a martial artist you caught on to that quick.I'm pretty sure you can see a difference when you see them as they truly are done.

[MightyB]

Don't disregard Wah Lum,

I've seen demos of Chan Pui doing "flashy" forms. I have no idea how old he is, but I wish I had 1/4 of his flexibility. In the demo that I watched, he dropped into the splits at least 5 times in a row while holding on to a spear with one hand. After he did the splits, he squatted on one leg with the other forward like a kick and then raised up to a standing position and did a back kick. That's impressive.

My Sifu has also told me some stories about Master Chan when Master Chan was younger, and, according to the stories, he wasn't somebody that you would've wanted to mess with.

[fiercest tiger]

jon,

you following me mate?

you can say like this whats better hung gar, jow gar, choy lee fut?:) i bet you say hung gar!

thanks guys for the info, i was wondering where wah lum fits into mantis. it didnt look like a mantis system!!

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

MightyB
That sounds like you might have been watching the Houston Tournement. I don't remember what year that was but it was awhile ago. The fact is Master Chan still does all that today. He's still not someone you want to mess with!

[cloudhands]

hi
i practice wah lum and i would like to make one thing very, very clear. what you see of wah lum at tournaments is for the most part seriously modified from the original forms,for example, there are very few forms in wah lum that have butterfy kicks , the tam tui kick where you hold your leg out and lower yourself to the ground, and as far as i know there are no traditional wah lum forms that have splits in them.


the fact that somoene would compare wah lum to wushu is the very reason i disagree with modifying forms in this way. wah lum is a very serious, very traditional form of martial arts. it has been proven many times to be just that , from villages in china to the streets of hong kong where there was no such thing as "points' and "light contact".

you can just as easily modify a form by changing the order of certain techniques or the direction they are preformed in.

[fiercest tiger]

Thanks for the info, but why modify the forms when they should be practising the original forms.

what are the original forms look like? what are there names and are they mantis forms?:D

why *******ize your system with wushu moves?:)

[NorthernMantis]

there have been some people who stole the modified ones.Think of what it would be like if the real ones were performfed.Some karate guy came into our class one day and did a heavily modified wah lum 1st form.MiamiMantis saw the whole thing and he can tell you a couple of stories of how guys have tried to steal our forms.

[fiercest tiger]

so what is taught at wah lum?

modified forms or real forms?:) are the real forms mantis or tan tui mixed?

thanks

[SaMantis]

FT,

I can say that in class, we learn the complete form (traditional). When we decide to do a tournament the sifu (Sifu Tu in my case) asks what form(s) we want to do and then helps us work in modifications.

Most of the forms us beginners do are pretty well known or in a book, for example I did 1st form last year in tournament with no changes. The modifications made at my level are to make the forms a little flashier, IMO. (Right-Hand stick just ain't that exciting).

Also, we don't do a form in tournament unless we've learned the complete (original) form beforehand.

Hua Lin Laoshi knows more about the history of the forms (praying mantis/tam tui & where they mix in); I'm still learning.


Sam

[Rolling_Hand]

Wah Lam's PM forms are Chan Po's own stuffs... they have nothing to do with the 7*.

[jon]

"you following me mate?"
lol following you? i think not...
Still if i see a post from you i do read it, sue me for reading a fellow Aussies views;)

"you can say like this whats better hung gar, jow gar, choy lee fut? i bet you say hung gar!"
Just to be annoying...
There all good if your that way inclined:p Similar seeds just a different strain:D

Correct me if im wrong Wah Lum guys...
If im not mistaken the orginal Tam Tui [seeking leg] is pretty demanding stuff and included quite a few acrobatics and flashy kicks, but mainly just for strength and flexablity training. Jumping kicks, low level sweeps and high spinning kicks where always part of the system. As to whether there used for combat or just training as im not dead sure. When it was added to the mantis system it kept on to a few of the Tam Tui aspects like favoring legs over hands and having jumping kicks and high kicks. Plus im sure it kept many of its better kicking skills as well.
It is traditional, just from a northern, heavy on the kicking perspective.
I think the Mantis in Wah Lum is 'wrestling hands' which is another off shoot of the orginaly northern mantis, though it is a close offshoot.
Anyway im not a mantis guy so if im wrong then someone point me out.

[SaMantis]

jon,

looks right to me! :) Yes, wrestling hands (jut sow) is a big part of Wah Lum.

Jump kicks, low sweeps and high spinning kicks do have combat applications, tho a good sense of timing and speed are critical to pulling them off, I think. I heard (didn't see) that at T2000 two guys sparring each other did tornado kicks at the same time and messed each other up. One guy had to be carried off. Ouch.

Sam

[fiercest tiger]

see you in court!:D

lol tornado kicks and carried off, seeking a new leg!!!:rolleyes:

do they condition there shins in wah lum or just do forms?:eek:

[SaMantis]

hoo yeah. we do shin conditioning, arm conditioning, body conditioning ... it's not just forms.

I think one of those guys ended up "seeking a leg," :D the one who was carried off hurt his back. wish i'd been there to see it, or just ask 'em, "so, what were you thinking when you decided to counter a tornado kick with a tornado kick?" :p

[Olethros]

Some have said that they high jumping kicks are useless in combat. I wonder if they would have use in combat, but not fighting hand to hand with another person. I know some broadsword forms have moves that are directed against the rider of a horse.
I wonder if some of these moves have an application against cavalry?

[whitewhirlwhind]

Originally posted by Olethros
Some have said that they high jumping kicks are useless in combat. I wonder if they would have use in combat, but not fighting hand to hand with another person.

I think maybe it is the other way around. Even to land a "simple" jumping kick (gwa may tui) in the throws of a battle of hundreds or thousands would be virtually impossible, it seems to me. And it would take too much energy for a sustained battle. But to end a one-on-one fight, landing such a kick is probable if used as a follow-up move to a dazed apponent or someone who is untrained in MA (I probably would not try it on an undazed untrained apponent!).

I cannot visualize a time when I would kick at someone on a horse while I am on foot standing on the ground. Other weapons, like the long-handled braod sword or just a staff, would be more effective.

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

fiercest tiger
The forms are only modified for public showing. We do not have any Wu Shu in our forms although compared to other styles they are a bit more elaborate. We have a mix of Tam Tui and Mantis in our curriculum.

Rolling_Hand
You are correct, Wah Lum and 7 Star are completely different. Common origin, different paths.

jon
You have a pretty good handle on it. Some of the flash (low stances, sweeps, jumping kicks) comes from Tam Tui. Wah Lum is very leg intensive. Alternating high and low attacks are very effective especially when done to the extreme.

whitewhirlwhind
I can see a battlefield situation in which you would jump kick over a falling companion taking out an attacker about to finish him off. No offense but maybe you need to practice it more. With enough training all these techniques will work, especially when everyone thinks they don't work and won't be expecting them. As for one-on-one if you are or have been in Wah Lum you will notice that gwa may tui usually follows wong chang tui which lowers your opponents guard and focus. See above comment to jon.

[woliveri]

SaMantis wrote: Yes, wrestling hands (jut sow) is a big part of Wah Lum.

Really? Where? Can you tell me where in what form wrestling hands is used. Where are the techniques defined? If it's so big wrestling hand should be all over the place. I don't remember any, none. Please help me.

[Tainan Mantis]

Olethros,
I had a disagreement with a student of mine who once had studied TKD.
He said that those high kicks are for knocking warriors off of horses.

I'll tell you what I think and you can point out where my mistake is, if any.

Since we don't have any people to kick off horses we can use our imagination.

Go to a not too busy street where people drive at about 30 MPH. As a motorcycle comes by do you feel that you could jump out and kick him off his bike without mortally hurting yourself?

-Imagine there are tens or hundreds of them.

-Imagine they have large and heavy halberds and spears, chainwhips and other assorted weapons.

And you said this is when holding a braodsword?

Am I the only one to find this illogical?

As for broadsword sets with jumping kicks:

Every traditional Northern broadsword set is a 2 man form.
When doing the form with a partner the kick is replaced by the same type of jump minus the kicking part.

The exception being the "intro."
This is the part of the form where you hold the sword or swords in your left hand and do some kung fu.
Actually, the swords should be in the scabbard when doing the intro, but that is rarely the case nowadays.
In the past, practicing with a scabbard tied to our waist would be a neccessity.

Unfortunetly the method of using the broadsword(or other weapon) or 2 man set isn't always passed along with the form. For this reason, many forms with weapons that were once logical have turned into something without logic.

This is the result of keeping the techniques a "secret"
Like an animal on the endangered list, they easily become extinct.

[firepalm]

One of the reasons that you see a lot of flashy technique in Wah Lum currently, I had heard was because a few years back GM Chan Pui had a Beijing (Peking) Opera coach come to teach acrobatic skills to his students in Florida. As well I recall seeing one of his seniors George Kee doing the Southern wushu compulsory on a documentary (sorry don't recall the name), further his daughter Mimi has done Contemporary Wushu, saw tape of her doing the Wushu Straight Sword at a demo. Furthermore Wah Lum former seniors Tracey Fleming & Ryan Watson were also more heavily into the acrobatic aspects more then much older seniors. Thus schools taught by older seniors may not contain the newer wushuish / acro elements.

I'm not knocking Wah Lum, it just seems to me that it is, in GM Chan's school anyways, something an expanding cirriculum. Nothing wrong with that really, it just explains why some may be seeing moves that they typically only associate with Contemporary Wushu and not with Tan Tui or Mantis styles. Just thought I'd share a little insight. ;)

[isol8d]

Originally posted by firepalm
I'm not knocking Wah Lum, it just seems to me that it is, in GM Chan's school anyways, something an expanding cirriculum. Nothing wrong with that really, it just explains why some may be seeing moves that they typically only associate with Contemporary Wushu and not with Tan Tui or Mantis styles. Just thought I'd share a little insight. ;)

What moves do people consider Contemporary Wushu? I have seen the documentary (Secrets of the Warriors Power: Kung Fu), and I have not seen Sifu Kee perform those sets since. I'm really not qualified to say if what I am learning is Wushu, as I don't watch Wushu. I've seen it once or twice, but I don't really understand the comparisons.

Can someone enlighten me? Maybe I am learning wushu and don't know it.

[Tainan Mantis]

Wushu is a modern rearrangement of traditional kung fu movements for the purpose of performing forms in competitions.
Almost all the techniques are real but they are done with the main aim of looking good in order to win competitions.
For this reason they appear more flamboyant and exciting to watch.

The traditional forms may also look good, but usually in a more functional sort of way. Those traditional forms were a tool to help people learn how to kill and so looking good didn't figure in as very important.

Wushu forms contain a lot of flashy jump kicks that don't seem to have existed in ancient MA.
Of all the wushu, longfist is the most well known. Of all the old styles related to longfist we find none of the flashy kicks.
-Tan tuei manuals from the beginning of this century have rarely more than 3 kicks.
-Taiji which is from long fist has few kicks
-the longfist as recorded in Chi's Ming dynasty manual has almost no kicks
-preserved forms from the Ming like PM and Baji have no flashy kicks.
-Old Tong Bei almost no kicks

On the other hand, Traditional opera has those flashy kicks that we find in modern wushu

TWO PERSON SETS
After close observation of wushu 2 person empty hand and weapon sets it seems that the application of kung fu as a method for teaching how to fight doesn't exist there either.

Traditional Northern kung fu sets are almost without exception arranged so that they can be done start to finish with a partner or broken up into little parts that are repeated over and over without interruption.(This is one of the definitions of the term Longfist)

This can be verified in numerous old and new MA texts of many different styles.

The wushu 2 man sets are arranged to look exciting and dangerous with little regard for MA theory that have developed over hundreds or thousands of years.

The weapon sets can be considered as an insult to the people who lived and died learning how to fight with these weapons.

In wushu weapons, you rarely, if ever, see 2 weapons that are the same against each other.
Sword vs spear but not sword vs sword or spear vs spear
Never straight sword.
Double braodsword against 2 spears but not against double broadsword.
The wushu stick forms are very fine looking, but when do we see them do all that in a 2 man set?

The traditional Northern weapon forms have the same moves but are arranged so that they can be done as 2 man sets. And practicing those 2 man sets is the first step in learning to fight with those weapons.
Why is this?
Because in order to fight the same weapon you are holding recquires a deep understanding of the techniques of tha weapon. Against dssimilar weapons you don't.

Everyone knows Lan Na Zha as the underlying technique of spear but against sword, stick etc you don't rely on those techniques only zha and swinging the spear around in circles.

The straight sword must intercept sword chop with sword chop. But against spear this problem never arises so this skill, the primary skill of sword, isn't needed.