8-step mantis yesterday and today

[Syre]

On this very interesting page: http://www.fortunecity.com/olympia/moses/1049/id34.htm there are pictures of Grand Master Wie Hsiao Tang doing the 8 stances of 8-step praying mantis.

These are somewhat different from the stances I was taught.

For example:

- in horse stance, the hand position is similar to that used today for bow stance. Also, the feet are not parallel, but turn out slightly. I have always thought that they should probably turn out slightly, and this seems to confirm that idea.

- sitting tiger stance, as shown, is a name that makes sense. For some reason I was taught this as "tiger head" (see below).

- Mantis stance is similar to the one I was taught, but the closer hand (in this case the right) is held away from the body near the shoulder instead of more or less under the chin as I was taught.

- the stance called Tiger's Head in the pictures is what I was taught as "50/50 Stance".

- the low stance in the pictures is similar to what I was taught as "falling stance", however the hand positions are completely different. These positions seem to make more sense.

- and again in the winter rooster stance, which I was taught as "single leg stance" the hand positions are completely different, being more similar to what's shown as Tigers Head in the pictures.

QUESTIONS:

- what does it mean that these look so different from what is taught today and what's shown on Master Shyun's page: http://www.8step.com/mantis/stances.html ?

- are there more pictures of earlier or other masters available in this style? How about video? I heard that some video transfers of films made of Grand Master Wie Hsiao Tang or other old masters existed. If so, does anyone know where to get it?

- Any other comments?

Thanks!

[EARTH DRAGON]

Allow me to clear up the confusion, the first group of pictures was taken from george listjaks website who is not even in the 8 step system, so they are not good reference at all, notice he doesnt advertise 8 step but yet has pictues of my teachers teacher on his site. The reson for this is he has taken the pictures and scanned them out of a book that he borrowed from the library. As you know, no master gives the general public the real deal in a book for all to see so master wei posed for those pictures in a non- shalant way just to give the book some flavor. But that is not how he taught or even wrote down the real names of the 8 stances. This is also true of the 8 fists in the book he describes them totally different then the way they are taught, mainly becuse you didnt have to be a student to read the book and 8 step motto is secrets and techniques and I can assure you that we dont volunteer information out to the general public even in the basiscs of proper stance and names for certain applications. the second group of pictures is taken from master shyuns webiste and is more accurate to the way the stances are actually taught however, I have personal pictures that show a much yonuger master shyun in extremly lower stances but again he also is extrmely camera shy, and even shyer when it comes to video, old fashion chinese mentallity..... give them nothing that they dont deserve or have not worked hard enough for...

[Syre]

Actually, that site does say it's 8 Step.

See: http://www.fortunecity.com/olympia/moses/1049/index.htm

"Welcome to the 8 STEP PRAYING MANTIS KUNG FU web site."

[EARTH DRAGON]

Yes I know but legally he is not allowed to advertise that he teaches 8 step becuse he was kicked out of the system and taken to court for breeach of contract and some other things so he even changed the name of his school and what he teaches, he even goes as far as sayhing that he teaches plum blossom and six harmonies both of which he has only went to semiars and learned a couple techniques.....

[MonkSanTe]

You know what, instead of posting about how "bad" our school is, or putting down Sifu Lisjak on the internet, why don't you come down and talk to him. Then you can tell him about all the things you say face to face. Every single time something comes up about our school, you go to town bashing it. Apparently that is what this board is for. You act like the know it all, and tell everyone how things are about everything. I love your posts about not trying to argue with people or put people down. Hmm, that's not what I got out of this thread. Another thing that I find funny is how you post things on here like they are facts. The reality of the situation is that you are lying. The pictures of Grandmaster Wei are from the library? Wow, where do you come up with this stuff. Those are some pretty serious accusations you make on here, accusations I don't believe are yours to make. Man, you seriously have some jealousy (or mental) issues to take care of.


PS-I apologize to everyone that uses this board for useful information, but I cannot just let things like this go.

[EARTH DRAGON]

Come On monksante, george showed me the book that has master posing the stances so please dont speak of things that you dont know, rember george and I were freinds before he betrayed everyone and started spreading rumors about everyone in the federation. So as far a s the legal thing why dont you look on the 8 step webiste and see that george's name is not even listed as a sifu in 8 step nor is he leagally allowed to advertise 8 step, he lost that battle in court and that is public information. not a rumor, so please speak the other side of the story when you attempt to stick up for him born again christian he claims? but he is the devil himself......

[MonkSanTe]

The devil himself? Oh man, that's great! Seriously, where do you come up with this stuff? I don't think you realize how much I do know on the situation. Which book did he show you, the eight step manuscript he picked up at the library? Yeah, I've heard that's available everywhere. You're a fraud and so is your teacher. I'll leave it at that, I think you do a good enough job at making yourself look ridiculous.

[Syre]

The reason I posted this was to try to get some information about changes in styles or variations of styles.

Somehow this always degenerates into name-calling and politics, none of which has anything to do with what I was asking.

BTW, Earthdragon, you're not listed on the 8step.com site either. What does that mean about you, if that's your measure of authenticity?

And what is this about Master Shyun being a fraud? In what sense is he a fraud?

I would really rather talk about the forms and how they have or have not changed, but if you bring these other questions up, at least address them fully.

[Stacey]

Yeah, Peace in the middle east.

Those who don't cooperate can lick some yeast. ....ewww.

Anyhoo, how bout them forms? How bout comparing form applications from different lineages, boy that out to make things interesting. Might even understand out respective systems a little bit better.

[EARTH DRAGON]

I always try to answer questions with integrity and honesty however their are a few bad apples in the mix that always disract from the question at hand anytime you speak about 8 step and only from one certain group george listjak's cult, I have been told many times by many people just to ignore them but if you knew what they did you would have a hard time turning the other cheek but anyways there are no real changes in the applications just the showing of the 8's again the public book of master wei did not show the real deal for obvious reasons so the more correct postures can be found by master shyun, and in the more advanced levels they are trained much lower.
Do you practice 8 step?

PS As for my name being on the site it is and states that I am a certified rank of sifu, georges name is not even that however at the present time I am in the inactive section due to relocation of my school.

[MonkSanTe]

Please, come join us. We are a kung fu cult that worships the devil. I mean, Sifu Lisjak is the devil himself, right? You know what, I'm sick of your charade and your crape. Sifu Lisjak has been nothing but great to me and my family members. I have gone through some fairly hard times over the last three years, and he has always supported me. Yeah, I'm bad apple, right? Honesty and integrity???? I don't believe that you know the meaning of those words.

PS-You have terrible sentence structure and all around bad grammar skills. Just thought I'd let you know.

[Kiasyd]

*sigh*

Here we go again... round 953 of 8 step people bashing each other... :)

--Kiasyd

[EARTH DRAGON]

Seeing as how I am not 12 years old I will not give monkesant the satisfaction of including myself in a ridiculous never ending argument....for they know what thier problem is , thats why they are soooo bitter....

[MonkSanTe]

Whatever. I was thinking younger than twelve, based on your writing. Oh well, I no longer feel the need to argue with you, until the next time you post something completely ridiculous.

[EARTH DRAGON]

like what that you know kung fu?????? bahaahha ha

[MonkSanTe]

More like you saying that you're a teacher of kung fu, or that you know the eight step system, or that you tell the truth about anything. You know, something like that.

[The Power]

I cant beleave what im hearing on this.... ED I know for a fact Sifu Lisjak was given photos and a video of Master Wei By Grandmaster Lin Chun Fu. So, Please think and get your facts stright before you post them. I was in you area this past weekend and found your school but it looked closed. I wanted to stop by and introduce myself. Maybe next time. Please Mike stop the Bashing. The fact is James Shyun cant prove who he is or what he is any more than I can. He has no photos or any written information from Master Wei stateing he is who he claims he is. I asked him! He said it burnt up in a fire? So I dont know. I do know what Grandmaster Lin has showed me. So lets all stop the fighting and say everybody is good in there own style!

[The Power]

Also ED If Sifu George is such a bad guy then why is his PIC up at http://www.8step.com/news/news28.html ? It says he is the NY rep and EDU. Director. But I dont see your pic. So lets all stop the bashing now shall we?

[Stacey]

3 words for y'all.....get.....a.....life.

[EARTH DRAGON]

Come on guys you know as well as everyone else that it is your "group" or should I say school that everyone not even including myself has a problem with. I have heard almost 40 people in the federation complain about you guys , even when I used to be freinds with george listjak, but when he started spreading rumors and saying derogatory things about peoples wives (mine included) and families thats when he went to far! I started to think that maybe they were'nt making it up.
I started to believe all the things that were said about him even though I first I thought it wasnt true. George claims to be a born again christian but our conversation on the phone proved that HE IS NOT. So if a person is going to lie about their religion what else whould they lie about? again I used to be freinds with george but after some oif things he has said about me my wife and my students I have absolutly no respect for him whatsoever. So please before you speak only of which you know half of get the whole story and lets not use photos from an amusment park to back up your thoughts.

I realize that he is your teacher and you have to stick up for him , but ask him how he also screwed his top student and head instructor mike......... thats a story in itself, and it is not just me but many many people in 8 step that feel this way.. which was 1 of the reasons he was kicked out , so agin it is not only me who thinks so little of his actions but everybody in the fed.

PS monk sante wow thats a pretty low blow attempt to speak of someones grammer, I found that funny, whats the matter I make you so mad that 's all you can muste up to rebut with? I would match wits with you but obviously you are unarmed......

[MonkSanTe]

This will be my last comment on the subject. My point, more or less, is that everytime my school or my sifu is brought up on here, you feel the need to say something derogatory about it. I really don't care about your delusions of who is against our school, or whatever. Come down to the school and tell Sifu Lisjak what you have to say or don't say it.


PS-I'll admit, insulting your grammatical skills was done in poor taste. That is why this will be my last comment on this thread, we both sound like a couple of kids out on a playground, only less mature!

[EARTH DRAGON]

Agreed,
As far as george goes, the last time I called him at his office and yelled at him to stop spreading rumors about me and my wife we argued for a half an hour and then he told me to go to hell that when I told him I was on my way to his office and we can handle this face to face he warned my not to come and threatened to call the police. I know he has a patient that is a hamburg cop so I really dont want to get arrested over this, but that is his way of dealing with me for he can dish it out but he cant take it. Deep down inside I am a fighter and have been in many fights street and otherwise and although george is bigger he is not a fighter and he and I both know that. so calling the police was his way out......
Again, you guys go your way and eveyone else will go the other and alll will be happy......

[EARTH DRAGON]

I just got off the phone with sifu dean, georges only real prayingmantis teacher by the way and he told me to look at georges website and was laughing at georges claims
Now correct me if I am wrong but george kicked and screamed about master shyun embelishing his dicipleship but yet george has stated on his site that he is the diciple of 4 or 5 different prayingmantis teachers some of who dont even know him or have only taught him within the past year or so , so correct me if I am wrong but talk about hippocritical MY GOD what will he calim next that he studied with master wei?
I know that it takes a very long time to become a diciple and then if and when you are you can only be that to one teacher, but I guess in georges case its anyone who will give him the time of day. so while you guys are thinking up your next lie please explian this to me and everyone else on the board................ I gotta hear this excuse

[Stacey]

Sifu Haley....What do you do when someone pushes against your right shoulder? Do you push back for all your worth or let it slide by you like water off a duck's back. When two forces collide, the one that knows the feminine will be superior. He attacks your ego, you attack his. Neither your ego, nor his are real, your wasting energy shooting at apparitions and kicking furiosly trying to harm the wind.

For God's sake, stop trying to "win". Winning and losing are the two great lies of the universe. When you meditate and all else slips away, even yourself, that is reality, try incorporationg that into daily life. Watch "Office Space":)

Shouting over the phone? Why? For your wife? Is she yours really? Can you love without owning. She wasn't in danger, and either are you. Count your blessings.

[The Power]

To all who listen to this guy, Here is a E-mail that was forwarded to me by a concerned potential student.

Dear Tom,

Thank you for your interest in Eight Step Preying Mantis and Shyun Tai
Chi. Mr. Haley is not presently affiliated with the American - Chinese
Martial Arts Federation and is therefor, under US Trademark laws, not
authorized to use the Eight Step Preying Mantis or Shyun Tai Chi names.
As for Mr. Haleys credentials, he was granted a provisional status of
sifu under the ACMAF approximately six years ago. He has had no contact
with the grandmaster in several years. His provisional status is
presently under review by the federation for failure to complete the
federation's authorized sifu training program.

All of the individual sifus listed on the ACMAF's official website have
obtained a level of expertise, recognized by the federation, allowing
them to train students to the level of sifu. Mr. Haley does not possess
the full scope of information necessary to instruct students to the
point where they might themselves qualify for national testing and
subsequent recognition by the federation as a sifu in Eight Step Preying
Mantis and Shyun Tai Chi Chuan.

Any claims by Mr. Haley that he is in possession of information
undisclosed to other ranking sifus of the federation should be taken
with the greatest speculation. Regarding the notion that he is the most
knowledgable individual to study under the grandmaster; I submit to you,
with sincerest humility, that presently I am the highest ranking student
under Grandmaster James Sun. My kung fu brothers listed on 8step.com,
each and everyone, possess skill and understanding far in excess of Mr.
Haley's, with respect to Eight Step Preying Mantis Kung Fu and Shyun
Style Tai Chi.

Understand that I am not in the habit of undermining the credentials of
others, in particular those of my kung fu brothers. I therefor gravely
regret the necessity of this particular contact. Yet, this is not the
first instance of false claims made by Mr. Haley and, hence, the
precipitant for this response.

In closing, I recommend that you contact Sifu Michael Cimino, there in
Buffalo, New York. He will be able to instruct you. He is fully
qualified under federation guidelines and personally authorized by
Grandmaster James Sun.

Sincerely,
Master Kevin Loftus, US Representative ACMAF

[EARTH DRAGON]

I just want to thank you for your kind and very wise words. In this situation I find myself acting totally out of character as I am sure you know by now, however you have to realize that while geogre listjak used to be in our federation and my kung fu brother he has discraced us and our teacher. If it were someone of whom I did not know I wouldnt even get a tad bit excited over however, this has gone way beyond the internet and effects me in a personal way. He even went as far as to call my wife names and speak vulgar about her to a third party who doesnt even do kung fu actually someone she works with. Thats when I lost it and threatened to handle it the old school way but he tried to call the police on me! cant you see who fustrating this is? While I have turned the other cheek so many times on this matter someone or something always gets under my skin. It is almost impossible to let it go and forget about it. It go tto the point where he was kicked out of the federation and sued in court lost and still asks for trouble.
Not many things get me mad in life but a coward, cheater, lier and hipocrite cannot go unscathed. I do appreciate your compassion and thank you for your advice and if it comes down to itr I want you in my cornner fo rthe big fight LOL but havent you ever met someone you just simply cannot stand.....

[The Power]

It go tto the point where he was kicked out of the federation and sued in court lost and still asks for trouble.
Not many things get me mad in life but a coward, cheater, lier and hipocrite cannot go unscathed. You are a coward, cheater,lier and hipocrite. For your and everyone elses information the Prayingmantiskungfu site is down and has been down for awhile. So you and dean where just on it??? The e-mail above proves to everyone who and what you are... A FAKE!!!! There was never a court case over the copyright so get your information right LIER!!!

[Syre]

MOVING RIGHT ALONG...

The reason I started this thread was to attempt to have some discussion about whether:

- 8-step forms have changed in the last 60 years or so, and if so, how and what comments people have about them.

- whether 8-step is taught in different variations by different masters. I understand there are some other masters besides Master Shyun who were fully qualified as Sifus before Master Shyun (since he was the final student, apparently, of the previous inheritor of the lineage), so I have wondered if they teach, and if so whether what they teach varies from the Shyun-style 8-step, as taught today.

Is there ANY CHANCE of bringing this discussion back to those original points?

[EARTH DRAGON]

You leave me no choice. give me a break, how long did it take you to think up that one? I called kevin and he had absolutly no idea what I was talking about when I read him what you wrote. I thgink its a pretty low blow to make up false accusations and pin someone elses name on it. I think you have reached a new level of desperation. If you are defending george please by all means ask him why he was forced to change the name of his school , website and advertisement of the style in which he teaches. coincidence perhaps? I really dont think you guys can up with anymore ridiculous lame excuses to justify your own self pitty but then again your group never ceases to amaze me? let me guess george trained with master wei and was a diciple of fung hua yi..........LOL

[Kiasyd]

Syre,

I think that your question was very interesting, but maybe it's better to forget about it... Everytime a question concerning 8 step Mantis is raised here, the discussion always degenerates... :(

-- Kiasyd

[EARTH DRAGON]

Just for the record, werent you the guy who claimed that you talked to master shyun before christmas and he told you that he was mad at me for the things I post on the forum, and that I better watch who my freinds are? you are a lier, it just so happens that master shyun has been in taiwan for the better part of last year so unless you have his parents home phone number in taipei it would bre impossible to talk to him AT ALL! You even lied on your profile about yourself so who in the right mind can believe anything you say......have a nice day

[baldmantiz]

how long has michael cimino been studying for....

[Stacey]

let it go baldy.

[EARTH DRAGON]

Well I do know that when master shyun came to my amherst school in 1997 he was a yellow sash (beginner) this is the level that you learn body coordinations in.

[Stacey]

Desire for knowlege sent Adam and Eve from paradise.

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

Since Wah Lum bickering is exceeded only by 8 Step bickering I would like you all to consider the following.

I propose we all stick to the topic of the thread with at least one comment in each post. New posts should be of a technical or historical nature. Since there is little censorship here it's up to us to voluntarily keep the standard up and ignore useless rantings that don't benefit anyone

IOW, post what you like but within the post make at least one 'on topic' comment.

ON TOPIC COMMENT
Syre
I have no experience in 8 Step so I can't give you an answer but I'm interested as well. For that matter how much have any of them changed over the years? 100+ years ago it was a matter of life or death. Today it's a matter of looking good or not. Is Kung Fu evolving or is 8 Step, 7 Star etc. being practiced as it was hundreds of years ago? I can tell you for Wah Lum it is evolving and coalescing under the direction of Master Chan. What remains of Wah Lum outside of Master Chan seems to be scattered. Tainan Mantis and Pong Lai could tell more about that area than I can.

[EARTH DRAGON]

I think it could be partially due to the changes made (some dramatic some subtle) however they seem to be forced to make more accomadating teaching lessons by western standards. I think that the flashyness as spoke of before would not have to be implamented if people just respected the art for what it is , while it is impossible to cater to all types of people and thier needs it seems as though the art has changed for the people and it should be the other way around.
just as the japanese incoporated colored belts into their styles simply for complimenting the american ego, such old way traditions and methods of teching have also been lost.
A good example is a paying student who paid for a whole month to only learn horse stance. While this may be the traditional way it hardly works in todays world. only those with a true love for thier art or teacher would endure this typeof training while most would demand a refund for not learning anything. So just like anything it is hard to bring old fashion thinking into a modern world and expect it to remain the same.....

PS huan laoshi, I thought only the 8 step people where the ones with internal problems. For it just goes to show that their is a$$holes in every system and we cant gewt rid of them, but I do commend your post and the idea to speak up and beyond the bad apples that plague these boards........... While It is true I have (against my better judgement) involved myself once again in the shannaigans from the same **** people I am only involved to defend those who are not here to defend themselves which incliude my teacher, my freinds and my students........

[The Power]

I talked to Kevin tonight and he said he had not talked to you in a long time.... But i forgot you are a know it all!!

[Syre]

Thanks for getting back on the topic.

I wonder about the "looks good" issue too. I've had my teacher say a number of times something like:

"oh, in fighting we wouldn't do it this way, but when you do the form do it this way because it looks better."

I think... "looks better to whom?" I don't plan on performing the forms on a stage for anyone, so why do I care how it looks? What I want is for it to work well and be effective.

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

That's where Wah Lum comes under fire because we do perform on-stage and elsewhere. We have Demo Teams, we've performed at Disney and numerous Chinese cultural events around Florida. The general public wants to see flash and elaborate moves and we modify forms to fit that need. That's why everyone goes to sleep during the Tai Chi at the Master demo at tournaments. Serious people see the control, flow and qi movement. Everyone else sees some old guy in pajamas that can't move very fast. Hey, Wing Chun works but it's certainly not entertaining.

I say if you don't perform then stick with doing the moves in the way they work. If you do perform then keep a clear distinction between curriculum forms and show forms. Don't mix the two otherwise you may end up watering down your style over the long run.

Oh, and in case anyone feels our shows are deceptive keep in mind that if someone likes what they see and joins they can follow a "show" path focusing on performances and joining the Demo Team. They will learn standard forms and applications as well but they can focus on whatever aspect of Wah Lum they choose.

[EARTH DRAGON]

Syre, another reason for the flash and the fighting versions were to conceal the actual fighting movements within the forms. So secretive are the chinese they would not want onlookers knowing their fighting techniques or stratagies simply by watching one practice. So therefore alot of the applications were hidden so you could perform the sets in public without giving away to much information. We also have the showing versions and the fighting versions but as you could imagine the fighting applications seem simple and plainso some where changed to give the form a better look and more spice.

POWER, give it up dude, you say you talk to everone in the federation but yet no body knows how you are and no body cares for that matter. you are a lier! you claimed you talked to master shyun when he was in taiwan LIE, you said you talk to kevin last night LIE, you say you trained in mantis for 20 years LIE you say you live in boston LIE? I reall dont think you know what is the truth so do your self a favor and give it up and leave these nice people alone !!!!! and for god sake follow the rules laid down by Hua Lin Laoshi and if you post make it about the thread not about your personal issues that people could give
2 f-u-c-k-s about.. thank you

[The Power]

ED,
Im am so sorry.....You really do know everything about everything. BUt.. I do live in Boston, I have been doing Martial arts for 29 years and I did talk to Kevin. By the way Sifu Newberry said you dont know anything about Iron Palm so stop say you do!

[EARTH DRAGON]

Get a life, go train, and for god sake stick to the topic of the thread , and if you dont have anything positive to add to it please dont bother saying anything at all, I am sure people are really get sick of you myself included. Dont you have something constructive to do instead of trolling. And if you have ben doing martial arts for 29 years you certainly dont act like it. Tell me is it make you happy to try to put other pepole down? is your life that empty that you insist on insulting people on the internet that you dont even know? thats pretty pathetic, is that what you come to learn in 29 years? Please do us a favor and get a hobby and if you are gonna post something please include the topic in your bleek rantings for nobody really cares what you think. have a good day our freind ED