BJJ Is Ineffective in the Real World

[Mutant]

The Gracie boys are a bunch of pansies. They are an incestuous family with silly names, who think that laying on their backs and spreading wide, and then dry-humping their opponents leg for a half hour or so is fighting.

Sakuraba even killed them at their own game, showing that their BJJ isn't even the best jujitsu. When Royce tried to fight like a real MMA fighter and throw some kicks and punches when his 'assuming the position' was getting him nowhere against Sak, he looked like a weak TKD yellow belt and Sakuraba just toyed with him, truly pathetic. :rolleyes:

BJJ had its day when it caught fighters with their pants down, isolated in a cage and unaware of their dry-humping tactics, but martial artists have now learned how to integrate it or deal with it. Their fighting only works in a very controlled and limited environment that has very little to do with the real world. They state that they would just run away in street encounters with multiple assailants, so they'd be better off training as joggers, and saving their BJJ for the bedroom. They would be destroyed on the battlefield, rolling around on the ground like maggots, easily gunned down as they lay there and wiggled. Only clueless, sweaty teenage puffs still worship the Gracies.

So what do you all think of that? Opinions? :D

[Water Dragon]

In the interest of not conversing with trolls or idiots, I shall be the first to add MutantWarrior to my ignore list.

[jon]

"So what do you all think of that? Opinions?"

For many people the art of BJJ seems to be very effective i havent personaly studied it but many seem to have good success.
You want to know what i think of your post and opinions?
Your post
I think your biased...
My opinion
I would not recomend learning BJJ to you personaly, learning something you dont like is often pointless.
Well that was easy can i have a biscuit now?

[count]

Your the second WaterDragon:D

[MightyB]

I almost fell out of my chair laughing. Great post. It's not that I have anything against BJJ, but enough posturing already.

We've seen BJJ and it isn't new anymore. We know how to deal with your game. I do have to thank the BJJ people for pointing out a hole in our defensive systems so that we were able to correct it. It's been fixed.

[Chang Style Novice]

My opinion is:

Brazilian Jujutsu is a refinement of groundfighting strategies for a specific situation - ring fighting in an environment where hard takedowns have been made martially ineffective by a soft surface or ruled out of existence, and attacking a grounded fighter from standing isn't an option. Practitioners of BJJ have successfully demonstrated their ability to win with the style in this context.

Remove it from that same context, and I don't think anyone reasonable claims that BJJ is a complete fighting strategy.

[Mutant]

yep, very predictable; count and waterdragon toadying up to the the bjj troll boys :)

maybe i'm having some fun with it, i really have nothing against bjj, it just amazes me to see so many kung fu guys roll over as soon as bjj guys start trash talking. no wonder they think we're not fighters. many are still scared of them ever since their UFC escapades.

so you'll let bjj guys of questionable authenticity and talent badmouth you all day on the kfo forum and take it, but a disenting kung fu opinion with valid points is shunned and ostesized? thats totally lame, you've become to accustomed to taking ****e. :D

[Cipher]

MutantWarrior,

While a little harsh I do agree with much of your post. We should thank the Gracies they have helpped a lot of martial artists realizes theimportance of defending against and learning ground fighting. The problem is they come in and fight people who have never trained against a ground fighter, now we have been able to see and see how to defend and fight against different styles.

Has anyone noticed ralek has not posted on this thread or any of the other recently that I have noticed. Do you think he got banned?:D

[Tigerstyle]

Nobody here is shunning a kung fu opinion with valid points.

[Steven T. Richards]

Mutant W,

You make a good psychological point. Mirroring troll-style attacks can bring out the weaknesses in argument against said trolls and their embedded suggestions that TCMA are sh*t

If what you posted was an intelligently framed prompt for people to 'think' more clearly both about what has been happening thru trolls who pose behind a BJJ facde, and, to force people to be more procative about their own art instead as you put it 'rolling over' then great, I for one am with you all the way.

You could only be legitimately labelled as a 'troll' if over time you did nothing other than be inflamatory, contrary and destructive.

Your explanation seems to suggest otherwise.

[MightyB]

You bring up a good point. So far all that I've seen of these so called "anti-trolls" isn't all that good. They're too eager to discount and label anybody who doesn't agree with their views as trolls. It reminds me of a modern day Salem witch hunt. The ol' "I don't like what this guy says because it threatens my preconceived beliefs so I'll call him a troll and get him blacklisted". I don't like it. A forum is supposed to be about debate. I agree that name calling and ungrounded statements have no place on a forum, but you should be open to other's thoughts and viewpoints. I've changed my mind on a couple of things because people that I may not like have posted some good arguments. If a person only reads people's comments who they deem are just like them, then they'll learn nothing and that's what most people are now doing.

Guys and girls, don't let the real trolls ruin a good forum by closing your mind to all people who don't think like you.

[Steven T. Richards]

Well said Mighty B.

[LEGEND]

GOOD POST...there are guys here like KNIFEFIGHTER and MERRY PRANKSTER that have tried to guide CMA fighters on how to defend the ground game! To us CMA fighters are exceptional standup fighters! But the answers when asked if tackled or takendown on what to do seemed unrealistic! The truth is BJJ works...but like any other martial art system...it works cause the element of surprise...when I first sparred my wing chun sifu...I had not idea how to defend against trapping...I was SKOOLED! Same with boxing...I was SKOOLED! Grappling...SKOOLED! That's why we study martial arts...with the hope that our OPPONENTs will not be sooooooooo SKOOLED. Cause if he is...then we're gonna have a tough time! But BJJ can help u be a complete fighter...it emphasis is the GROUND. And u never know...u may fight a real tough guy and your not knocking him out and he football tackles you...BJJ can help u get off the ground...can help u break arms and legs...it may not or ever be a system u like...but it will help!

[Mutant]

Steven R.,

Yes I see your point and agree with your suggestions. I guess i was feeling a bit goofy and restless on a friday at work and felt like dishing some absurdity back to the bjj circle for once.

If you can see and appreciate the parody of the post, coming from a cma perspective, then one might examine the rash of troll posts coming in from the other direction in a different light.

While I know much of it is ridiculous, i think there are some valid points imbedded within. and why should we only have to take their ****, its not only a one-way street...

they exposed flaws in our ring fighting and we are better off for it, they helped cma as well as the entire martial arts community evolve in mma and we can all thank them for it, i do appreciate that.

but we can also return the favor, and expose some fundamental flaws in their art, no? or at least examine and depate this? or is this this to scary or against the grain for some people, incurring the wrath of the bjj guys? last i checked ralek was logged on but had not responded...now he can't claim that responding to a 'troll' post is beneath him. besides, meaningless drivel seems to get the most responses lately....trying to ignore them sure hasnt seemed to work, theyre proliferating and people keep feeding them...does this mean that forum members prefer this style of posting? does that mean that trolls can't funtion well and have fun unless they're in the driver's seat, the head troll? hmmm...

[red5angel]

I have a question to put out there....

Could it be that possible, due to the popularity of bjj in so-called extreme or reality fighting, that bjj attracts a certain type of person, in general of course, who trains harder and is more competitive? Could this be the reason why bjj seems to win these type of tourneys more?

[Water Dragon]

IMO, you hit the nail on the head.

[guohuen]

Great fishing technique! One of the Chinese Masters did this to us at USAWKF with an obcene, racist post. I resisted the urge to respond until one off his students came to his defense. I responded that he was delusional. Later I appoligized because I realized that he was defending his Master and that was an honorable thing to do. As for the Master, I am quite sure he was trolling to see how stable we were here in the States. I know he caught me. I had to reexamine all my skills and my whole belief system. Imagine the caring and selflessness it must have took for this man to appear as an ignorant racist to imbetter American Gong Fu. I don't think I have that kind of stuff.

[Water Dragon]

To totally dismiss an art as effective because your style does not share it's strategy, is just as big of a mistake as assuming all arts are ineffective if they fight based on a different set of principles.

IMO,The truth of BJJ lies somewhere in the middle. A solid, well developed martial art that can stand with the best. Nothing more, nothing less. You don't have to train in it to respect it.

[Brad Souders]

You placing BJJ and the Gracies together proves to me that you are uneducated in this matter. Yes the Gracies introduced grappling from there family, but now a days it stops there. Do you consider some of the top BJJ guys Gracies. Mario Sperry, Fabio Gurgel, Saulo Roberio. Do you see Gracie behind those names. No i think not. Its like me making my karate/kung fu opinion on Fred Ettishes master in the UFC. But who am i to complain against you the World Full Contact Kata Champion of the World

[guohuen]

Agreed!
About assuming.

[Archangel]

Who is this really adressed to, who is this BJJ "cirlce" you are talking about. To my knowledge there are no pure BJJ guys on this forum, alot of us use BJJ as a tool for groundfighting. We see it's value as well as having a good standup game and good wrestling game. Please don't lump us all with Ralek.

[LEGEND]

Could it be that possible, due to the popularity of bjj in so-called extreme or reality fighting, that bjj attracts a certain type of person, in general of course, who trains harder and is more competitive? Could this be the reason why bjj seems to win these type of tourneys more?


"RED...to answer your question...MMA competitions attract the harden warrior...guys that are willing to test themselves...like football or basketball! But it's not BJJ...u have guys in JUDO do the same...in CMA it's in the SAN SHOU...Muy thai guys and boxers and wrestlers are extremely competitive! But the fact is these guys are driven to be the BEST. I think it's a mistake to let guys like RALEK say that CMA is not respected...we do respect CMA...guys like CUNG LE is CMA...the GRACIEs are the first to say they to study boxing or muy thai etc...they're not stupid...but MARKETING ditates a different path!!! That's why u see advertisment that BJJ is the BEST!!! It's all marketing!!!"

[SanHeChuan]

What I don’t like about BJJ is the insistence that we need them, as well as the arrogance that many straight BJJ players have to think that they and their style is just so much better than everyone else’s. Kung fu guys and karate guys can come together and say yeah that's good, mine is better, but what ever you want.

BJJ is like some kinda fanatical cult, I swear I tried a BJJ class about a year ago and everyone expected me to just up and join right there because it obviously so much better than any other style.

Ground fighting, you don’t need ground fighting, you need two skills, avoiding the take down, and getting back on your feet. BJJ teaches neither of these things directly, because they want to be on the ground. Although you can use their skills to get back up they do not teach these skills. I don’t think that BJJ is a bad style, but I don’t think its be all and end all or styles. It seems to me like Aikido, effective in certain situations, but a limited style. BJJ came along and gave us a solution to a problem that just did not exist. No one needed the level of ground skills that BJJ produced and many could do and can still do without these skills. The “ground fighting” skill level of your average attacker isn’t that high, and people in non-wrestling styles could still (if they were good) deal with someone who had them on the ground. And we all know how ex state wrestling champions often start using their skills to mug people in the park. There wasn’t some rash of martial artist getting their asses pounded by tackling street thugs before BJJ came along or now.

And believe it or not I’m actually in a BJJ class this semester, for what I call martial literacy. The instructor said that the course would not focus on fighting other BJJ players, but on self-defense street skills. I hope that he will teach us two things, avoiding the take down, and getting back on your feet, although I doubt he will.

[Mutant]

Actually guys, I agree with many of your comments.
The truth is probably somewhere in the middle.

Although the content of my post was about bjj in a different and funny light, the message and theme was about bjj often showing little or no respect for kung fu while we (well maybe not me in this post..), generally respect other arts. Too often it seems, we listen to criticism of CMA and its effectiveness without examining other arts, BJJ in this case, in the same harsh light.

And i acknowlege that the truth of traditional kung fu's effectiveness in MMA tournaments and in the real world in some cases may be lacking as well and also falls somewhere in the middle.

Which i think validates the point that well rounded training and understanding and respecting different arts is critical in order to compete at the highest levels in modern day fighting.
I have in the past responded to articles that were harshly criticizing kung fu with open-minded and honest answers, later to realize that i had just been drawn in by a troll who really didnt give a **** what i had to say for kung fu, as they were actually prejudiced and just here to 'dis us and waste our time as we try to defend our styles.

So whats wrong with feeding some back to them? Why always be backing up on the defensive on your own forum? They have some good points; we have some good points, too! What's interesting is that the usually blatant trolls seem to have scattered and won't (so far) touch this thread. ralek took his ball and went home to cry. i guess its no fun for them unless theyre controlling the thread up on their platform and pushing everyones buttons.

And to waterdragon and count; i meant no disrespect to you, ignore me if you'd like i could care less, but i don;t think i'm a typical troll, i'm just trying to stir things up and prove a point. you should not be so quick to dismiss ideas, even if they sound crazy at first. i'm trying to get people to think about how theyve been getting smacked around by the trolls and accepted that role. i for one often find the trolls amusing, but don't accept that its a one-way street where they can walk all over experienced and respectable martial artists and styles without at least getting equal smack talk back in return. bring it on. :cool:

[DelicateSound]

I'm summing up here. Some of these points have been made before [CSN, Red5 etc], but IMHO this is a pretty definitive list of WHY BJJ had been such a recent success:

*It is engineered SPECIFICALLY for UFC/MMA tournaments. In these events throws are ineffective [soft surface], strikes are less effective [gloved hands, rules etc.], and striking to a fallen opponant is prohibited. BJJ had capitalised this by pioneering the tactic of tackling a guy, and then making him submit. It's emphasis on groundfighting reinforces this.

[Remember that when Judo first faught JJ, the JJ people simply went to the ground and won - as at this time Judo had no groundfighting tactics. This is the reason Kano added them]

*The "hype" scenario Ever since Martial Arts reached the mainstream West in the late 1960's, the punters have been after the "next big thing". After the Judo and Karate of the 60's, the KungFu golden age of the 70's , to the Mhuy Thai of the 90's, and the "NavySeal Hardcore Combat" of the late 90's. Now its BJJ. Everyone regards it as the New Ultimate Combat Style (tm), and most people are dumb enough to buy this crap. Combined with...

*Publicity. The Gracies aren't stupid. They run this thing like a business. TV spots, paper ads, primary space in Mags etc. They wanted the cash and they got it pouring in.

******** people like Josh. Plain and simple. Some of which train pretty hard.


BJJ is not the "best style". Maybe the best in an MMA tournament, but my pavements aren't so soft.

Now shut up about BJJ and talk about KungFu!!! :D

[Mutant]

Also, i didnt mean to lump everyone involved in or cross-training in BJJ together with some of the notorius trolls, no disrespect intended. But I do get sick of BJJ claiming to be the ultimate unbeatable art, even if it mostly is marketing. I think it is limited in the real world in its effectiveness, but is probably great to incorporate and understand. And personally I don't know what the Gracies are training in or up to these days, I really don;t follow them. Although based on what I have seen for the past few years, I hope for them that they are humbled a bit and learning muay tai.

[Ra|ek]

After my most recent fight (See profile) I have realized just how effective Kungfu really is. I have been training for only 8 days and I know it is a powerful way. BJJ has no grip on me anymore, I have been freed from the darkside, lost my arogance in this so called art of BJJ.

[nightwing_38116]

I am a Kung Fu guy (green belt in Nan Shaolin Ngor Chor) and am that first to say that I respect the Gracies for what they've done for martial arts as a whole. They have created a good business model for other schools to follow and have forced many to add the groundfighting dimension to their game and making them better fighters all the way around. In a real self defense situation am I going to roll around in a parking lot with a guy for a barlock, no, not if I can avoid it. The thought of rolling over gravel, glass, and possibly syringes doesn't do much for me. If BJJ and the Gracies are not your cup of tea, fine. That doesn't mean that you can't take something from it and improve your own techniques and skills.

[DelicateSound]

Someone mention cups of tea?

[Merryprankster]

Delicate:

I won't argue with you about the rules of MMA tournaments. I personally believe that they are reasonably well rounded, offering neither an advantage nor a disadvantage to striker or grappler. We could have that discussion some other time, but I've thought a great deal about it, leading me to that conclusion. I think the use of gloves has actually changed things more than anything else. I won't even get into why the softer surface of the ring protects strikers, and not the grapplers..some other time. Perhaps we could e-mail some time to discuss this. I have tried to have this discussion before and it got so emotionally charged that I gave up in disgust.

To the person who said that nobody in their right minds would argue that BJJ is a complete fighting system: You're absolutely right. Those that believe it is are living in an utter delusion. However, those of us who study BJJ typically cross train in other places to shore up the weaknesses. We do this because we believe there is NO such thing as a complete, integrated, fighting system; that there are holes in everything. That too is an argument for another time and place, and certainly not one I want to have here.

Just some thoughts from a guy who thinks BJJ ain't the end-all, be-all... just **** good at what it does.

And, as a parting thought, BJJ is no longer successful on its own in the ring. All good fighters crosstrain because one 'style,' isn't good enough any more.

[LEGEND]

Ground fighting, you don’t need ground fighting, you need two skills, avoiding the take down, and getting back on your feet. BJJ teaches neither of these things directly, because they want to be on the ground. Although you can use their skills to get back up they do not teach these skills.

"DOOD u need to talk to whomever is teaching you...maybe it's cause u started a week ago...but your instructor should have taught u the BASE OUT ESCAPE!!! If not...go to another SKOOL ASAP!"

I don’t think that BJJ is a bad style, but I don’t think its be all and end all or styles. It seems to me like Aikido, effective in certain situations, but a limited style. BJJ came along and gave us a solution to a problem that just did not exist. No one needed the level of ground skills that BJJ produced and many could do and can still do without these skills. The “ground fighting” skill level of your average attacker isn’t that high, and people in non-wrestling styles could still (if they were good) deal with someone who had them on the ground.

"really??? I guess the HOCKEY DAD who got taken down and beat to death by a fairly large man may disagree with you! He was beaten to death by multiple blows to the head on the ground! I'm sure he thought the way you did too!"

And we all know how ex state wrestling champions often start using their skills to mug people in the park. There wasn’t some rash of martial artist getting their asses pounded by tackling street thugs before BJJ came along or now.

"www.streetbrawl.com...tell me if u see grappling???"

[count]

ooops, I peaked, but as a result I have taken you off my ignore list MutantWarrior. But I will say this, While you did make some points that are not untrue, I would not be so quick to judge a style based on a few idiots posting on the internet. A style can not speak for itself but some who care to look will see it for what is worth. Good new techniques and good new training methods can be valuable to even the most seasoned traditionalists. And a troll post is just that no matter what side of the coin you call. A waste of forum space and time which is why I, and many others seldom post on this particular board any more. So as I said I have taken you off my ignore list, but that Ra|ek, (with a pipe) oh brother, he's got a long way to go before he can prove himself. What a lame attempt at trolling.

[DelicateSound]

Sure. I understand that loads of people here'd get up on their high horses about the MMA rules. No problem. We always seem to have good conversations [I seem to learn something every time!], so feel free to e-mail me.

It's:

thegrandolddukeofstone
@
hotmail.
com

[written like that to prevent pagescanners, excuse the address!]

Knock yourself out! [not literally, It's harder to type] :D

[Ryu]

LEGEND,
thanks for the link, man!

Ryu

[Ryu]

awwww I already saw this site :mad:

I withdraw my thanks!
( :D )

Gotta wade through the pornography crap to actually see anything worth studying...

There's gotta be better pages than this. The warriorcentral one was okay.

Ryu

[Archangel]

SanHeChuan

If defending the takedown and getting back up again is all you want to learn, Joining a wrestling club would definately help.

However "Getting back up" as you say, is not nearly as easy as you may think and wrestling may not give you all of the answers. Escaping a mount, defending against punches on the ground, defending against a choke are all essential skills you need in order for you to get to your feet. Some BJJ wouldn't be a bad idea.

[Archangel]

SanHeChuan

If defending the takedown and getting back up again is all you want to learn, Joining a wrestling club would definately help.

However "Getting back up" as you say, is not nearly as easy as you may think and wrestling may not give you all of the answers. Escaping a mount, defending against punches on the ground, defending against a choke are all essential skills you need in order for you to get to your feet. Some BJJ wouldn't be a bad idea.

[SanHeChuan]

"DOOD u need to talk to whomever is teaching you...maybe it's cause u started a week ago...but your instructor should have taught u the BASE OUT ESCAPE!!! If not...go to another SKOOL ASAP!"

I don’t kwon what he will teach as my first class isn't till next Wednesday. I'm glad they teach this, but tell me if I’m wrong but they do not emphasize/practice allot of escapes that get you off the ground. Although they probably do teach you to gain position that would allow you to escape, the primary reasons for gaining these positions is not escape. Right?

"really??? I guess the HOCKEY DAD who got taken down and beat to death by a fairly large man may disagree with you! He was beaten to death by multiple blows to the head on the ground! I'm sure he thought the way you did too!"

Well maybe you should fill me in but I doubt he had any martial arts training what so ever, am I wrong. This then is not an effective argument against my statement as I said that martial artist would likely be able to handle a ground and pound situation. Had he taken martial arts he might have had sense enough not to talk **** to a large fanatical hockey fan at a little league game. How the hell did that happen, did he die before anyone could come to his aid, or did no one help? That’s a sad, horrible thing to happen.

I had a friend who took BJJ and often muscled is way out of locks and stuff that had not yet been fully applied by the teacher. Does it not then stand to reason that this "large man" would be able to do similar feats and still whoop ass on the HOCKEY DAD. And why do you say HOCKEY DAD in capital letters, does that some how mean that he has some fighting skills or something.

"www.streetbrawl.com...tell me if u see grappling???"

Well actually no I don’t, not any done with any skill, which was my point exactly. I did not see one person on those clips that I would be afraid of.


However "Getting back up" as you say, is not nearly as easy as you may think and wrestling may not give you all of the answers. Escaping a mount, defending against punches on the ground, defending against a choke are all essential skills you need in order for you to get to your feet.

I agree with you on this but I believe that you can find skills enough with in most systems to deal with punch, or chokes, on the ground. Escaping the mount would be a little trickier but a solution could be found. But why make up **** when you can just take other proven martial arts, right. I agree but then we would have far fewer styles, would we not. I do not see any thing wrong with taking other systems to gain proficiency in other areas, what I do take offence to is the “hype” that surrounds BJJ that has every one running around going OMG you have to learn ground fighting or you’ll get beat down. This may be true in SOME sport competitions but I do not believe it to be so in real life.

Hmm…I hope I said all I wanted to in a clear understandable manner.

[anerlich]

Kung fu guys and karate guys can come together and say yeah that's good, mine is better, but what ever you want.

Actually, there's more than a bit of historical evidence to argue against this assertion. Wing Chun (just one example) was, and still is, full of trash talkers who put down other styles and other WC branches. Remember William Cheung and Emin Boztepe, with repeat performances from their students or si dais a bit later on?

I remember Mas Oyama calling one of the other karate organisations' world championships "The World Dancing Championships." Not a compliment, BTW.

There is plenty of internecine rivalry and trash talking within TCMA and karate without having to go further afield.

What the Gracies, UFC etc. have done is provide a forum where arts can be tested out against each other - albeit not perfectly. One positive about this is that people will find it more difficult to insult other styles or promote their own alleged invincibility without getting called on it.

While Sakuraba is a good argument against alleged claims of invincibility for the Gracies, as is Wallid Ismail (more hilariously), he says nothing for the effectiveness of TCMA in the argument. He's highly talented in grappling and MMA.


Ground fighting, you don’t need ground fighting, you need two skills, avoiding the take down, and getting back on your feet.

Yes you need those. I've seen both covered extensively in BJJ seminars and we train them regularly. But you also need to have a knowledge of how to escape from inferior positions and how to ground-n-pound so the other guy doesn't follow you up. Everyone knows "it's stupid to go to the ground in a streetfight", but the people you're fighting may be stupid and make that decision for you.

The black belt head of the Machado BJJ org here, of which my kwoon is an associate member, has his fulltime BJJ students working kickboxing and street defense regularly. He told us he his two most recent confrontations on the street, road rage incidents, were ended by him with front kicks to the midsection. He also once choked out a criminal who had mugged a female security guard and taken off with some cash. This guy treats my Sifu with the greatest respect, and vice versa.

We have even had Luke Beston visit our school to help run a seminar. He was polite and helpful, and posted very favourable comments on MMA.com about us on a couple of occasions afterwards. Readers of MMA.com will know that praise for anyone outside BJJ from Luke is not easily won.

There are trashtalking morons in BJJ. There are trashtalking morons in kung fu. "Morons" is the operative word. Most people in both styles with any sense do not waste time with such unproductive rubbish.

In the immortal words of Rodney King, "can't we all just get along?"

[SanHeChuan]

Well I was talking more from my personal experience, than the martial arts communities at large. I've been to many of the martial arts school in this city and the Karate and Kung fu guy are for the most part respectful. The BJJ instructor and his students are nice, cool people, but the instructor mostly does not have a certain level of respect for other styles that I see in the other schools. He does claim to be practically undefeated. Like he said that he just got back from a tour in Europe where he was coaching and he must have fought some 200 guys form other styles and they all tapped. He’s a cool guy but comes off to me as arrogant.

Yes you need those. I've seen both covered extensively in BJJ seminars and we train them regularly.

Great! we? who is we?

But you also need to have a knowledge of how to escape from inferior positions and how to ground-n-pound so the other guy doesn't follow you up.

Escaping from an inferior position would be part of the getting back up phase. And I still think that a competent martial artist of most any style would be able to handle a ground situation with an untrained assailant.

Everyone knows "it's stupid to go to the ground in a streetfight", but the people you're fighting may be stupid and make that decision for you.

Good point I like that, but...see above statement.


Ok, anything else? Look ma a coversation about BJJ and Kung fu with out name calling. :p

oh yeah i forgot, when ever the subject of BJJ get brought up to non BJJ instrutors around here, there are like yeah good style, but the "hype" man THE "HYPE". and that's pretty much what i'm saying, is it not?

[Ryu]

:)
Well I'll say this. A guy trained in martial arts could stand a chance of getting out of a ground and pound situation granted he had good skills. But I doubt he could pull that off with someone with a grappling background who knows how to keep you down. For that you've got to know how to grapple to escape him.

At least I'm hoping! :eek:

Ryu

[SanHeChuan]

Well Ryu for the most part I agree with you.

But I don’t think there are allot of martial artist going around attacking people, so if you also avoid sport competitions that feature ground fighting then you don't NEED to know it, to fight and win.

I'll also say that I have a friend who's pretty Thug-ish, he also has a background in JJ and BJJ. Now he'll kick your as$ but he's not gonna take you down to do it. Too fond of the steel toe's maybe. :D

[anerlich]

Great! we? who is we?

www.combatcentres.com

Note the page is pretty new and there is not a huge amount of info yet.

I would hope that a person trained in a martial arts could deal with an untrained person on the ground, but these days a lot of guys have done something. Sandford Strong ("Strong on Defense") relates how criminals practice their attacks in jail. If its a citizen with 5 years of MA up against a guy just off a three year sentence on the prison farm with a string of aggravated assault raps, my money's on the last guy.

Even the KFO home page talks about one of the Sep 11 terrorists having trained in MA.

I'd rather aim my training at worst case scenarios (a skilled, ruthless attacker) and then thank my lucky stars if a fight is anything easier. If you don't consider you're going to be fighting a skilled opp, you're arguably making the same mistakes the sport MA types are.

Karate's been hyped. Kung fu's been hyped, often to ridiculuous levels. At least BJJ people don't rave on about delayed death touch, killing from a distance, levitation and other such rubbish. Remember when ninjitsu was getting saturation coverage in the MA rags? Now it's BJJ and MMA's turn. Hype will always be here.
All these arts have something to offer, the rest is just advertising, not all of it totally truthful.

Please go to your BJJ class with an open mind, try to ignore any trashtalking and accept what's presented for whatever value it might have to you. If you go there having already decided it's a waste of time (and you've only done a week), it almost certainly will be, and not just for you.

[SanHeChuan]

Cool, what do you think of the knife techniques pulled from the wing Chun butterfly knives. I’ve been interested in knife fighting ever since DUNE.


Sandford Strong ("Strong on Defense") relates how criminals practice their attacks in jail. If its a citizen with 5 years of MA up against a guy just off a three year sentence on the prison farm with a string of aggravated assault raps, my money's on the last guy.

Well I can't argue against that. Do you have a link to any statistics or would I just have to buy the book? Does he say what skills they are practicing per-say?

Jail fu, the next big thing in MA's.

I'd rather aim my training at worst case scenarios (a skilled, ruthless attacker) and then thank my lucky stars if a fight is anything easier.

True that.

If you don't consider you're going to be fighting a skilled opp, you're arguably making the same mistakes the sport MA types are.

:confused: in what way exactly? Not that I necessarily disagree.

Please go to your BJJ class with an open mind, try to ignore any trashtalking and accept what's presented for whatever value it might have to you. If you go there having already decided it's a waste of time (and you've only done a week), it almost certainly will be, and not just for you.

I wouldn’t be going if I didn’t think there was something of value to be had there. Ok, maybe I would because a lot of hot college chicks take that class too. MMMMM…rolling around with hot chick in gi’s….aaaaallllgggg.


All right you make some very good arguments, but it needn’t be BJJ, you could learn JJ, or judo, or probably even shuai shou. And I don’t need people trying to force BJJ on me all the time.

We also agree that BJJ is not tacitly sound in many if not most, real world situations, yes. That was after all the topic of this thread.

[anerlich]

While butterfly swords are good practice for any short weapon, the knife and baton system we practise is based on Hock Hockheim's stuff:

www.hockscqc.com

which my sifu is licensed to instruct.

Sanford Strong is a San Diego cop with much real world experience - he lectures other cops on dealing with violent crime. IMHO his book is the best ever written on handling real world violence, bar none. The only book I feel I could give to my mother, wife, sister etc. which I feel would give them a significant increase to their chances of surviving a violent attack. Read it, you won't be sorry.

Not a lot of detail on what they practise, but I'd imagine pincer movements, bag snatches, etc. My point is that an habitual violent criminal is going to be a lot more ruthless and is more likely to be conditioned to anything you can throw back at him.

You were saying (I exaggerate) that you don't expect to run into a trained grappler on the street. My point is that a pure sport BJJer (or anyone else) will not do well on the street if he doesn't expect to be kicked at with steelcaps, sucker punched, have to deal with multiple attackers or with weapons.

You're right, it don't have to be BJJ. Shootwrestling, submission wrestling, Judo and sambo are all worthy arts as are the others you mention. I took up BJJ because it was offered to me on a plate through a series of fortuitous events. Too good an opportunity to pass up.

I agree that grappling is generally to be avoided when confronted with violent crime. Run-fu is best by far. But it's a combat layer that might save my a$$ if my other options fail. Sometimes all your options suck, the criminal will have done his best to engineer that.

It is nice rolling around with good looking women, but get too carried away you'll get choked out or armlocked. After a few sessions those "hot chicks" are just another human in a gi who's out to submit you.

Enjoy yourself there. It can be a lot of fun. Ain't nothing wrong with that, is there?

[DelicateSound]

Wo - a BJJ conversation without flaming!!! And its actually GOOD [shock and amazement] :D

I think a problem that a lot of grapplers have is that they mistake the ring for the street. Soon after I started my Judo, I was doing OK in the dojo, and I thought I was invincible. I got into a fight, and although I did manage to stick the guy on the ground with a nicely timed throw [Harai-Ogoshi I recall] I got pretty beaten up at first. My striking skills were pretty lame, and the reality of it all sh!t me up.

Any "sport" style ultimately must have rules. And there are no rules on the street. I was too stupid to have used Run-fu when I had the chance. Awareness is an important skill.

[DelicateSound]

Anerlich - nice site BTW.

[Merryprankster]

I offer this:

There is a great deal of talk about "dealing with the untrained person."

This is a fallacy, that we, as martial artists should go to GREAT lengths to break. How many times have you seen the "defense to the roundhouse punch," taught in MA, but NOT the defense to a sharp tight hook? Never mind that if you know how to defend the HOOK you can defend that big ol redneck swipe with relative ease.

My point is this: Train what works on trained opponents. Don't practice for the untrained. If somebody tries the football, head down, big-guy tackle all the grappling I've done will let me get out of that with ease. If I've trained to defend against that tackle and the guy turns out to be an angry ex wrestler who shoots a nice solid double, well then, I'm screwed.

Bottom line: Assume your opponents are trained. Practice good principles hard against other trained opponents. The practice you have will then enable you to deal with the "untrained," version of that attack.

[DelicateSound]

On the whole I agree, but there are some MA's who could train so much to fight against their own style, that the rough brawling of the street may confuse them.

I think Geoff Thompsons classes are the best, his realistic training with untrained punches, swearing, spitting etc. Its what you will USUALLY encounter [not always!] so you should be aware of it. There is no etiquette on the street.

[Merryprankster]

When I said trained, I didn't just mean your own style. Go out and find other people who different things, and do so regularly.

Otherwise, you get really good at fighting YOUR style, and not much else

[DelicateSound]

All arts are complete to some extent. None are TRULY complete.

That's why I reckon cross-trainng will be the "Next Big Thing"

[Merryprankster]

I think so too.

I predict that many MMAists will use some San Shou as their standup and some sort of Groundgrappling.

[DelicateSound]

I find that people are changing styles a lot more. This has to be a good thing also, there are too many McDojo's in the world.

I myself have experienced Jujitsu, BJJ, Shotokan Karate, Judo, Aikido, TaiChi and LauGar.

I can't say I know the styles, but I've been along to the classes and given each style a chance to impress me. Most didn't. I still haven't found the style that's right for me. I'm off to a Wing Chun class next week :D

[Water Dragon]

I think we're at a point where traditional Gong Fu can now compete in the NHB world. Personally, I'd like to see JF Springer get some of his guys in the mix. SPM looks like it would fill a nice void in the MMA world, and the gloves used allow for the use of the Phoenix Eyes.

Our group is also looking at competing using Shuai Chiao as a base. Solid Hsing Yi as well as Taiji are also well developed for the game. I'd love to see the short hand systems and clinch fighters in the Octagon.

[Merryprankster]

Waterdragon:

We shall see. I'm not against it by any means, nor do I think it's impossible, and I hope that there is some success. It will expand the list of "useful," things to train in for MMA, yeah?

[Archangel]

Is there really going to be anything new found? As long as we have 2 arms and 2 legs humans will fight a certain way. Look at the fighters in MMA now, they all fight basically the same way; It was evolution and just natural for this to develop. Boxing took the same path, in the early days of John L. Sullivan the fighters just threw wild punches. As it developed through the years certain techniques, certain stances, certain strategies became dominant; and boxing as you see it today is the most effective form of punching.

I've watched some San Shou fights and it honestly does look like kick boxing with wrestling added. Every take down attempted, I could remember doing in wrestling tournies. The double, single, hip toss, lateral drop; they were all there. Did the Chinese steal from wrestling and call it their own? certainly not, well at least not intentionally. These techniques are the most effecient way of taking down an opponent using what we have.

[Merryprankster]

Arch--not "new," no. And nobody stole anything from anybody... but San Shou fighters have worked a great deal on integrating throwing and striking, and the more they do it, the better they get at it, so it would make sense to practice the San Shou format as a stand-up base. Think of it more as a way of approach to training than anything else. Good MMA gyms do this already!

As far as the wild punches bit, perhaps. And boxing is the most efficient punching art if you have gloves on. Ever notice the old stance of the Sullivan era boxers? It's not because they didn't know how to stand. It's because they didn't use gloves. That high guard developed because with gloves I now have:

1. The ability to land full power shots to head without breaking my hands.

2. Two large pillows protecting my face, from an incoming large pillow. (although, having been hit by people, I can safely say it doesn't ever FEEL like a pillow fight :)

This changed the WHOLE game. Wearing down the opponent round after round after round to the body became less important because a good solid shot to the head ends the fight. Protecting your head becomes of utmost importance, so you bring your lead hand back to your face rather than out in front, and with those pillows it's a great defense! Stances became lower to facilitate power in the shots because I don't have to worry about hurting myself anymore. Lower stances reduce foot mobility so slipping, and the bob and weave become the predominant evasive techniques. I imagine the list goes on. And all because of gloves

Now, I'm not knocking boxing at all! I think its hands down the best punching art available, if for NO other reason than the way we train to box (and I think there are more reasons than that, but that's a biggie) but it's evolution has a great deal to do with the gloves.

[Syre]

actually, this fight from http://www.streetbrawl.com/ does go to the ground:

http://www.realfight.com/videos/fight3.ram

[shinwa]

I don't think boxing is the best style of punching. That's a really weird thing to say considering theres an equal of any boxing punch in traditional arts(jab/backfist hook/same thing, uppercut/same thing), and boxing doesn't teach you to defend your lower body at all. No elbows, no joint work, etc etc etc. Wing Chun has that all in spades. I don't thing WC is superior either. Depends on the fighter.

[Yung Apprentice]

Has anyone trained in both JJJ and BJJ? If so what are there likes and differences? Has anyone outside of CMAs ever grappled against a mantis practioner who is proficient in low mantis?

[shaolinsheep]

My opinion:

BJJ is very effective in a controlled enviroment ( like UFC >> cages ) but in the streetfight it is not so effective like other styles.

[Merryprankster]

shaolinsheep:

My Opinion:

Wun Hop Kuen Do Kung Fu is effective in the kwoon, but in the streetfight, it is not so effective like other styles.


See how easy that was?

A style is nothing more than a set of tools, accompanied by a training and fighting philosophy. It is up to the person to choose the right tool in their grab bag for the task at hand.

shinwa: The best punching art is not the same thing as self defense or anything else. Now, if you had said that boxing is not the best self defense art, I would have to agree with you 100%. There is too much left uncovered by boxing for it to be "self-defense," in that sense of the word. But as far as strictly punching goes, they are awfully good at it. How good is left up for grabs I suppose, but on the basis of strictly punching, I hand it to boxers... most of the folks on here wouldn't stand and try to outpunch a boxer...they'd use other tools in their arsenals. Catch my drift?

[jon]

"A style is nothing more than a set of tools, accompanied by a training and fighting philosophy. It is up to the person to choose the right tool in their grab bag for the task at hand."

- Very nicely said, i couldnt agree more.

[shinwa]

I don't see why not. All boxers aren't sugar Ray leonard, Mike tyson, or Ali ya know. IMO the best punching art would be the one that is ready to handle more than just punching, yet relies on punching as it's primary method of attack/defense. Would boxing help ya on the ground? Not much. You'd have a better chance down there with Wing Chun due to sensitivity trainiung and some people realize that the and can be used for much much more than making a fist. Mok Gar? has every single punch that boxing has and then some.

I don't think either is the best. Especially not because most people HERE wouldn't get in a punching match with a boxer. That's their limitation, not my own (figuratively speaking). Depends on the fighter. All depends on the fighter. I've beaten boxers using only fist, bean beat once by a boxer using only fists.

[Merryprankster]

Hmmmm..

I had this big long thing written out, but the bottom line is that we're approaching this from two different definitions.

You would term a hand oriented striking art as a "Punching art," even if it includes other things.

I was limiting it strictly to punching.

My argument is that specialization in punching has given rise to particularly effective punching methods and strategies in boxing.

Yours is that to be the best "punching art," you need more than just hands.

Let me rephrase: I believe that Boxing offers the best hands on instruction in mechanically sound punching available, based on my reasons above. I don't, by your definition, consider it the best "punching art." How's that?

BTW, my only point in saying the bit about not boxing the boxer is just to point out that instead of meeting the person's strength, attack their weakness. If discern a guy is a boxer when you FIGHT with him, why try to out punch him? Do something else. That's really what the folks on here are getting at. Now if you are sparring for improvement, that's totally different, of course.

[shinwa]

What i'm saying is that there are strategies just as good in other methods of punching. Basically i'm saying, The handwork in boxing , is NOT superior to all other handwork. It depends on what you know. You seem to be primarily a grappler but i guess you've done some boxing. But you may not have experienced the punching strategies/mechanics in Wing Chun, Hung gar, Mok Gar, Choy lay fut, etc etc etc. How much do you really know of them to deem them inferior? If you're limiting handwork to jabs, uppercuts,crosses and hooks targeted only at the upper level than there is really no reason to make such a statement anyway.

You're basing what you see as boxings superior punching methods on only the punching it uses. When in reality there are many many different methods of handwork. No way it should be limited to attacks using the knuckles. If it is, thereis NO reason to say boxing is the best method of punching around because you're not comparing the arts fairly.

but anyhoo I dont want you to think i'm attacking yo or anything so i'll back off.

[Merryprankster]

Hey, I don't think you're attacking me, we're just disagreeing, and that's cool.

There is more under the sun, other than boxing, and I do think that the gloves change the game somewhat.

Whoa Boy! I certainly don't deem the arts themselves inferior, I just think that all the focus on punching in boxing yields a pretty good product. I personally believe the training methods are pretty spiffy, but I'm a trial by fire kind of person. Now, you take a Wing Chun guy and eliminate all other techniques but punching, evasion and counterpunching, and I think you'll rapidly wind up with something that looks like suspiciously like boxing.

This is my only point: When it comes to a strictly punching game, boxing is tops, but that's because it's their specialization. I wouldn't dream of putting a team of WC, Hung Gar, Choy Lay Fut etc, guy in a ring with team of boxers give them boxing rules, and if they lost, go "well, gee.... That style doesn't seem to be as effective as boxing." It's not fair to the KF guy!

And vice versa!

It's all about the rules of the game.

The only real way to explore this would be to institute a bare knuckles tournament strictly about punching :)

I'm sorry. I didn't mean to come across as huffy. I'm just trying to be as clear as possible. I really think we're kind of talking past each other, and not on purpose, because we're working from different base definitions.

[shinwa]

yeah maybe we are haha.

Good talking with ya.:cool:

[Merryprankster]

Thanks! You too.

Hopefully nobody else will pick this up. My striking background sucks, and I can't really speak to the specifics, just the generalities.

You know what I'd REALLY like to do? I'd really like to spar somebody that is considered good at Wing Chun. I don't know why, I've just wanted to for awhile.

[Archangel]

Very Good point Prankster, I really wonder what boxing would have evolved into if gloves wern't introduced. I still believe though, that there would be a few basic techniques that everyone would adapt (like it has now) and everyone would look very similar.

As far as training goes for a MMA fighter, the events he enters are either extremely specific (wrestling, boxing ,BJJ) or they encompass everything - MMA. San Shou has alot of potential, it's somewhere in the middle. It would benifit all MMA fighters to enter some of these tournaments. I do widh though that they would switch to a 10 point must system. With the current system they have it has the potential to turn into a point "tag" tournament.

[Merryprankster]

hmmm...

I thought the UFC was a ten point must, although I don't think Pride is.

Boxing would look a lot more like it did in ages past--higher stances, that lead hand sticking out there and more body work until the knockout blow could be cleanly landed without injuring your hand, I think.

I really think more attention needs to be paid to format before people go on about "style vs. style." Once you understand the environment in which something developed, you begin to understand a lot more about the "why."

A danger with any style--they tend to evolve to defeat their own students. Fortunately, that trend seems to be evaporating. EVEN if you don't think MMA crosstraining and ringfighting is the end all be all, they brought an awareness of:

1. The need to do SOMETHING about grappling.
2. The need to make sure you train with people of other styles on a consistent, regular basis.

[anton]

Just a small point: I believe spinning punches like the clf been chui aren't allowed in boxing. I also wonder why you rarely see punches like gwa/sow chuis in other styles.