View Full Version : Subforms of Hung Ga

10-21-2000, 01:23 PM
I've heard of many subforms in Hung Ga (Plum Flower Style, Flower Style, Lau Family, Butterfly Palm, etc.)
It seems however that all Hung Ga lineages have different subforms. Which subforms are practised in which lineage?

Paul Skrypichayko
10-21-2000, 06:04 PM
Plum flower style and flower style are not usually practiced by Hung Gar people, but perhaps you mean plum flower form (mui fa kuen)?

Most of Lam Sai Wing's students will have Mui Fa Kuen, Lau Gar Kuen, Lau Gar Pang (stick), Wu Deep Jeung (butterfly palm), and Sup Ying Kuen (10 forms/5 animals, 5 elements form). Most do not have Ng Ying Kuen (5 forms form).

I don't know about the other non-LSW lineages though.

10-21-2000, 07:51 PM
Paul, thanks

Indeed I meant Mui Fa Kuen.

However I understand that are already differences between the lineages under Lam Sai Wing.
So I really would like to know which froms are trained in Chan Hon Chung and successors, Chiu Kao and successors, Lum Jo and successors, Ho Lap Tin, Frank Yee, etc.
So more a comparison of the current Hungga.

10-22-2000, 10:29 PM
Some people maintain that the minor forms were added to aid teaching to the masses, just as Kushanku was broken down into pinan katas in karate. I use minor forms for this reason as well as to focus on specific excercises, and development of certain attributes, such as footwork, faht geng, etc. The Moi Fa Sup Fu Kuen, for example, focuses on body integration,threading bridge,footwork,long bridges, and winding bridges, and also utilizes the drilling fist, and trapping techniques. These techniques are found within the major forms, but are extracted and focused on in more detail here.

Paul Skrypichayko
10-23-2000, 04:07 AM
Well, speaking from experience, Chan Hon Chung's students train Mui Fa Kuen, Lau Gar Kuen, Wu Deep Jeung, and Sup Ying Kuen, in addition to the 3 core forms.

Has anyone on here ever heard of a form called "Chai Jong"?

Je Lei Sifu
10-24-2000, 03:03 PM
Under Ho Lap Tin Branch, we have two additional sets

Gow Ge Lin Wan Kuen (9 sons coutinuos fist) and

Lao Sing Kuen (Shooting Star Fist/Meteor Fist).


Je Lei Sifu /infopop/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

The Southern Fist Subdues The Fierce Mountain Tiger

10-25-2000, 09:02 PM
In Chiu Kao lineage exactly the same subforms are trained as in Chan Hon CHung's.
Does Lam Jo lineage also has the same forms?
I heard they only did Lau Gar Kuen? Is this correct?

Oh by the way. Check out www.hungga.net (http://www.hungga.net) to compare the Fu Hok of Lam Jo and of Chiu Chi Ling. Chi Chi Ling's movie has just been added.

Paul Skrypichayko
10-25-2000, 11:14 PM
I think you'll find that the only student of Lam Sai Wing's that trains Ng Ying Kuen is Chiu Kao. None of the others, Chan Hon Chung, Wong Lee, Lau Jam, Lam Jo, etc., train it as far as I know

10-27-2000, 09:36 PM
Ng Ying Kuen is indeed often practised in Chiu Kao lineages.
However I believe Tang Fung lineage also has Ng Ying Kuen, but NO Sap Ying Kuen. (At least this is what I read on the website of Yee's Hungga).
Can anyone (Je Lei Sifu?) react on this?

As for the lineages under Lam Sai Wing. Here it seems that only Chiu Kao taught Ng Ying Kuen. However Ng Ying Kuen is NOT a real form. It's just a half Sap Ying Kuen or sometimes three animals of Sap Ying Kuen (Dragon - snake - panter) and then the Fu Hok end (tiger - crane - lohan).
The foreign students of Chiu Kao's sons often were for a short period in Hong Kong. This was not enough to learn the complete Sap Ying. Therefore they learned a part and the end "was just the same as Fu Hok".
I believe some later some other teachers did the same. E.g. Chan Hon Chung learned the Ng Ying Kuen (or better said: the Sap Ying Kuen in parts) to a few foreign students later.

The big difference is that in Chiu Kao lineage Ng Ying Kuen is seen as a main form next to Sap Ying Kuen. Some students now however realise Ng Ying Kuen was only thaught as a bridge, and leave it out of their curriculum. So Ng Ying might dissappear again within a few generations.

10-29-2000, 02:48 PM
Under Yee's Hung Ga, Ng Ying Kuen is a major form. Sup Ying Kuen is a minor (or subform as called here).

Tiet Que

Je Lei Sifu
10-30-2000, 03:16 AM
In Tang Fong branch, Ng Ying is one of the major forms as Tiet_Que has stated. This form was not created by the Chui's. Tang Fong had learned Ng Ying from Wong Fei Hung, and not Sup Ying.

Patrick Chui, you are correct in stating that the ending is the same as Fu Hok, from the Crane section, until the end.


Je Lei Sifu


The Southern Fist Subdues The Fierce Mountain Tiger

11-02-2000, 10:03 PM
Just trying to understand the last two posts.
How is Sup Ying a subform while Ng Ying is not? Are you just saying that Ng Ying is the major form and though Sup Ying extends Ng Ying, it was additions after Wong Fei Hong?

Or is your Sup Ying entirely different/shorter then Ng ying? I don't know that the Chiu's claim to have "invented" Ng Ying but they defeinitely teach both where Sup Ying is an extension of Ng ying.

11-02-2000, 10:56 PM
The Chiu's just shortened Sap Ying to learn it to thier foreign student, so personally I would not call it "invent"or "create". Probably the Chiu family knew Ng Ying KYun was done by Wong Fei Hung and perhaps even had contact with people of Tang Fong's lineage. So hten you could say he kind of "re-included"the form . (However I know many argumetn can be given that this is not the case. It's just a matter of how you see the form -)

I once heard the story Ng Ying Kyun was created by Wong Fei Hung and Sap Ying Kyun was later "created" by Lam Sai Wing. It's said that he added the five elements after the Luk Sin accident.
If this is true I wonder how come Tang Fong linage also practises Sap Ying Kuen? Does it look the same as in Lam Sai Wing lineage?
Secondly I also wonder why it 's just a subform then? Thsi might indicate that Wong Fei Hung indeed did not have this form in his curriculum, and Tang Fong learned it from Lam Sai Wing. (as sometimes is said that Tang Fung later refreshed his contact with LSW and learned some "new forms".

Does anyone know if all this is true or just a legend?

11-03-2000, 05:18 AM
Under Yee's Hung Ga, Ng Ying is a major form from the Tang Fong lineage. Sup Ying Kuen was not from the Tang Fong however added as a minor form under Yee's by a senior student who had studied it prior under the Lam Sai Wing's lineage.

Sorry if this caused any confusion..

Tiet Que

Je Lei Sifu
11-03-2000, 05:54 AM
Once again, I would like to reiterate, that sup ying is not a form within Tang Fong's curriculum. It may have been added into the system by some of Tang Fong's Students, but never taught by Tang Fong. I come from Ho Lap Tin's Branch, and my sigung was with Tang Fong longer than his other students. Ho Lap Tin learned under Tang Fong while in Gwongdong at the Yi Yong Tong. Ho Lap Tin also completed the system before Tang Fong started to teach in Hong Kong. But once in Hong Kong, he assisted Tang Fong with the training his younger classmates. We perform all the sets taught by Tang Fong and sup ying is not one of them.


Je Lei Sifu /infopop/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

The Southern Fist Subdues The Fierce Mountain Tiger

11-03-2000, 06:37 AM
Je Lei Sifu is corrected, sup ying is not a form of the Tang Fong curriculum. At Yee's Hung Ga there are some of us who are familiar with the minor forms of the Lam's lineage, su ying being one of them. This is from one of our old senior Robert Chu who had studied the Lam lineage prior. As we all know Robert is a very well repected WC practioner and very open in exchanging and sharing his knowledges. It is during his time with Yee's Hung Ga that he taught the Lam's minor forms to those who were interested. My Sifu Frank Yee is also a very open minded person , he never discourage any of us from learning.
Today all those minor forms that were taught by Robert are optional forms. They are not part of the Yee's curriculum, They are available for students to learn but not mandatory. As a matter of fact , not all branches of yee's Hung Ga teaches these forms. We have plenty to work on already with the four hand forms that we have.

The four hand forms are gung gee fut fu, fu hok,
ng ying and the iron wire.

The reason for this response is just to be sure from a historic stand point which lineage has which forms. If you look at it, there are really three core forms in Hung Ga, Gung gee fut fu, Fu Hok and the iron wire. The subforms were created by the elders to help students progress. Why are we seperating the Lam and Tang lineage ?
Aren't we all from Wong Fai hung?
I really do not see such a big difference between the two lineages.
A more interesting topic should be , where are the other WFH lineages beside Tang and Lam?
We all know WFH had many disciples during his life time. Did any of them teach ?

I talk enough.



bean curd
11-03-2000, 12:10 PM
df, your are 100% correct in your statement.

we all come from wong fei hung, this is the key to our art, and we should all cherish this , and through this learn and respect each other irrespective of what lineage we come from.

for myself i am from chiu kau lineage and chan hon chung lineage.

the interesting part of my training (started in 1973), is that the four forms i was taught from the chiu kau lineage is gung gee fook fu, fu hok, sup ying and tit sien.

it was not till much later that i was shown ng ying, and have always thought of this as a sub form.

this being the case, and how the players of the tang fung lineage have ng ying as a pillar form, can i ask if the ng ying that tang fung lineage play is different in ways to that of the chiu kau lineage players.

unfortunatly where i live, (down under) we don't have any tang fung players here, so i have not seen ng ying played by this lineage, i would be greatly interested in any tang fung players answers.

thnk in advance

choi gin

11-04-2000, 06:44 AM
Hi bean curd,

I do not really know what the Lam's lineage Ng Ying looks like, so I can not really say what and where the differences are.
I have seen a ng ying kuen in the past that is much shorter than the one we do. I do not know is that a Lam's lineage form or not.
As far as why the ng ying is important, there are many reasons depending on how you want to look at things. The most obvious being the techniques and how each of the animals move. Since we are all different, each student can match his or her own body type , personality etc with the animal that best fit him or her.
Another reason, as the student progress, we can teach how the five elements corresponds to each of the five animals. This is done to further understand the internal, intend , generation of power etc.
I know I only just provide a very general answer to your question, but I think you know what I mean.
Ultimately, we are human and not a tiger or dragon,etc. The five animals ,five elements, twelve bridges theories are just tools for us to teach and help students understand. The theories are there to help us paint a mental picture so we can do the technique with the type of power, intend as it was designed. I think thats why we have so many styles of martial art. Just different ways of expressing body movement in combat. At the end of the day, it is all the same thing.


bean curd
11-05-2000, 12:18 PM

thanks for the reply, know what you are eluding too.

peace also

11-07-2000, 01:46 AM
First let me say that I am a big supporter of the one family concept. The more I see different Hung Gar schools the more I see the similarities. The differences are really more interpretations of the same concept and seeing the differences helps me have a larger understanding of those concepts.

Second, there is at least two branches of WFH that I know of that doesn't go through LSW or TF. They are his last wife and Penang Leng Nann Hung Cheun of Malaysia. The malaysian lineage actually comes from WFH's first set of students.
(before LSW and TF)

Finally, the Ng Ying from the Chiu line is the same as Sup Ying from Lam Jo line (since some of the TF people know that one) except it stops after the crane portion with the ending from Fu Hok. Anyone know both the TF Ng Ying and the Lam Sup Ying that can say if this is true of the TF Ng Ying?

If not, then the Ng Ying is a very different set.
I've never seen TF Ng Ying and that's why I ask. Let's not get into better or worse. If you look at everyone's sets, you can learn something from them.

11-07-2000, 03:22 AM
The Tang Fung Ng Ying is a little different from the Lam's Sup Ying form. The dragon part is very different, the Lam's has more of an iron wire flavor in it. The leapord part is also a little different. The tiger ,snake and crane portion are much more similar. Both are great forms.
The sup ying is by far much longer, boy do you need to be in shape for it, lol.
We are familar with the folks in Malaysia, from what sifu said from his last visit with them, their forms are very similar to ours.
Hope this help


11-08-2000, 02:51 PM
Ng Ying Kuen from a different perspective. First, I have to digress a little.

White Crane, Pak Hoc, is well-known and has been around for quite a while. Wong, Yan-Lum (WYL) was a contempary of Wong, Kay-Ying and Wong, Fei-Hung. The were all acquaitences and members of Kwangtung's Sup Fu (Canton's Ten Tigers). It is even rumored that WYL has some influence on Wong, Fei-Hung's Fu Hok Sheon Ying Form (The upper/downward cuts and "pow" upward swings). Interesting rumor that has been floating around for decades, but just that - a rumor to note. The execution of these hung gar techniques and white crane's "pow (upper cut) and cup (downward cut)" is different in taste and form. But who knows...dang...I am going off on a tangent again. Back to the subject of Ng Ying Kuen!

White Crane kicked a lot (really...a lot) of ass in the old days in Canton. They took a lot of challenges on platforms and to this day, remain elite and difficult to cull any significant amount of information on their style. They have their own organization (social, political, and martial arts wise). They do not care to associate with other system; hence, we do not see a lot of intermediate or advance sets demo'd to outsiders. Snotty behavior, but they possessed a very effective and efficient (no block but strike)system.

As was the tradition, if one came across a superior opponent and lost the fight then you would join that style. White Crane acquired a lot of different martial artists(MA) within their system. For example, Luk, Ah-Choy who is Quentin Fong's sifu was a traditional Choy Lay Fut practitioner and they have some CLF influenced flavor in some of their white crane forms.

Many of these MA still practised and retained some of their old forms. By the time Ng, Siu-Chung (considered the Father of White Crane) standardized Tibetan Lamma into White Crane during the WWII period; Ng Ying Kuen was already in the pak hoc system. A hung kuen practitioner (don't know who he was) had brought in Ng Ying Kuen because that was the set that Hung Kuen practitioners were taught and prevalent at that time and NOT Sup Ying Kuen. This is white crane history.

So if you ever luck out and see a white crane demonstration of Ng Ying Kuen, please note that it IS a Hung Kuen Set. Even the white crane clan say that it was from a former Hung Kuen MA who joined their lama system. The form has some interesting dynamic tension that we associate with hung gar and even has the signature "que sao (one-index finger)" coupled w/sei ping ma AND yee gee kim ma. The crane is done in dynamic tension form also...very, very interesting indeed.

I thought that Paul and DL would find this though provoking...heh, heh.... So there is some oral history from the white crane clan supporting the Ng Ying Kuen stance as a major form at that point in time, back in China... Remember that it is just my two-cents soooo please do not get agitated if you do not agree.

11-08-2000, 03:03 PM
The teacher of Quentin Fong is Luk, Chi-Fu and NOT Luk, Ah-Choy. Sorry for that late night error!

Having talked to my sisuk, it is a mistake to assume that all hung kuen practitioners from the "Kwangtung Sup Ying" period learned everything. Even as late as the early sixties, some hung kuen people never went beyond Fu Hok Sheon Ying Set. He mentioned that the mentality was not to collect and learn all the sets, but to work on what was taught to you and explore and excel in your form, martial arts skills until you were **** good. If you opened up your own studio, and your students wanted to learn more, you would just send them to one of your sihings or sidyes or the form/training. No big deal...

11-09-2000, 04:45 AM
I agree with molum_jr that things were taught differently back then. I remember all we did back then was basic,techniques and foundation trainings, Forms were taught out before we have to do a public demo, and not necessary in any specfific orders. I remember learning the spear as my second form after gung gee, lol. Molum_jr sisook is corrected in basiclly saying it is more important to have quality rather than quantity.

The pak hoc connection is very interesting and worth exploring. I will now go and haunt my pak hoc friends about their ng ying, lol.


Paul Skrypichayko
11-09-2000, 07:42 AM
I don't know too much about bak hok pai or bak hok kuen, but perhaps this mystery figure who brought some hung gar to white crane was Kwan Tak Hing.

A few things might not fit though. Kwan Tak Hing's base style was white crane, and he learned his hung gar later, as a casual student or friend from Chan Hon Chung. Chan Hon Chung however did not teach Ng Ying Kuen, but we also know that Kwan Tak Hing created his own Sup Ying Kuen.

Lovely how confusing things get. =)

Perhaps this mystery figure was from Tang Fung lineage or from Chiu Kao? If it was around WW2, it would be before the period of Bak Hok Sam Fu, and should be easy to figure out, as most of the people from that era are still alive

11-11-2000, 09:39 AM
Talking about white crane and Hung Gar:
Ever seen the Bubishi (Patrick McCarthy's translation/version). It's about Goju Karate and the origin which is Crane Kung Fu (don't think it's Tibetan white crane).
In the section on the origin of the crane styles Fong Weng Chun is mentioned as the founder. Also there are some drawings depicting here with her husband "Official Hung". So while we have the legend of Hung Hsi Kwan and his style being influenced by his wife Fong Weng Chun, in Crane style it is exactly counterwise. Here the legends tell Fong Weng Chun is the "creator" being influenced by Hung Hsi Kwan.
So crane style and hung gar date back a long way.

Secondly I have to agry with Ha Say Fu.
I also have seen several lineages/schools. All have there small differences, but the main line is always the same. It's always Hung Gar and will always be our family. (regardless if we also have some different forms and stories).

11-28-2000, 07:08 AM
Since different teachers are all trying to make a living teaching Kung Fu, the tendency is to see their closest "relatives" as the worst competition
simply because they offer a similar curriculum. (and thus theoretically steal students back and forth)
Of course the Hung Ga lineages are more similar than they are different. I don't see other Hung Ga people as 'bad guys', but I would still be cautious about going into one of their schools, because despite any good intentions I may have, they may see me as a potential troublemaker. I wouldn't want this, so it is best to love one's own lineage, admire what is good in other lineages, and stay out of trouble! The Hung fist will thrive if we all train hard, teach good students, and remember how to behave

11-28-2000, 07:31 AM

you mentioned in your other post that you are a student of sifu Frank Yee. Please contact me as soon as possible.

Dixon Fung

12-02-2000, 10:03 PM
I recently heard that the subforms Moi FA Kuen, Wu Dip Cheung etc. were inlcuded in the Hung GAr style in the 1950's.
Several Hung Gar master came together because htey thought other styles had much more forms and Hung Gar could use some "beginner forms".
So they created/edited some forms together.

Does anybody have any info on this?

Note: please do not come with the story of the Ching Mo. Lam Sai Wing was not a member of this association.

South Paw
12-03-2000, 08:03 PM
Patrick Chiu wrote: "Please do not come with the story of the Ching Mo. Lam Sai Wing was not a member of this association"

He was a member of the Kuo Shu Institute though. This Institute was founded in the early thirties in Guangzhou and was a branch of the Central Kuo Shu Institute in Nanjing. Also in this institute Northern and Southern Styles were mixed and new forms were created.

12-04-2000, 03:51 AM
Chiu Wai says that Moi Fah Kuen was created by a group of Hung Gar instructors that wanted to create a bridge between Gung Gee and Fu Hok. It could be taught as a beginner form since it is so short but like Lau Gar, it emphasizes some very core concepts. I've looked closer at the John Leong book and his version is different then what I learned from Chiu Wai. Similar but shorter.

He also said that Wu Dip Cheung came from Ching Mo. I did not ask if it came from LSW. My guess is that he would say it didn't since my Sifu thought it came from Chiw Wai's mother Siu Ying and Lum Jo's school does not teach either of these sets. They do teach a subform, Chin Cheung, though.

South Paw
12-04-2000, 01:32 PM
Hasayfu wrote: "He also said that Wu Dip Cheung came from Ching Mo. I did not ask if it came from LSW. My guess is that he would say it didn't since my Sifu thought it came from Chiw Wai's mother Siu Ying and Lum Jo's school does not teach either of these sets"

I also heard that Wu Dip Cheung was created by Chiu Wai's mother. Actually she was born in a small village in Guangdong. There she learned her first Kung Fu. I can't remember if this was a Northern Style, because Wu Dip Cheung seems to be a mix.


12-05-2000, 10:32 AM
I remember asking Chiu Wai if his mother created the set and he said no. Not sure where the other story came from but as I said, my Sifu (who studied under Chiu Wai) said it came from his mother too.

02-14-2001, 07:42 AM
I just want to bring this thread back. We had some nice discussion here, maybe we can continue.

Shaolin Master
02-14-2001, 07:47 AM
Who created 'Sam(3) Ying(shapes) kuen'

Thanks in advance

02-14-2001, 08:00 AM
Are you refering to Snake, Cat, Bird three shapes ?

Shaolin Master
02-14-2001, 08:22 AM

02-14-2001, 11:30 AM
I heard the 3 animals set was @ 50yrs old and not a popular set.

A student of BuckSamKong sent me a video tape of himself doing it...Joseph Plante I do believe was his name. I've also heard that it exists in book form. Perhaps he picked it up some place, not sure. Anyone heard of this book?

My personal opinion is that the movements of this set are nothing really new to our arsenal of techniques.

I sure someone must know something more about this particular set. Well, that's all I know.


Paul Skrypichayko
02-14-2001, 12:19 PM
The book for that form is usually advertised on the back of the Lam Sai Wing books, along with about 30 other kung fu books. I too have heard about Bucksam Kong's people performing that form, but haven't heard of any other hung gar people doing it.

02-14-2001, 06:41 PM
There is an old book I saw of this form. I also had a friend that does this form but unfortunately I haven't seem him in years. Fron what i remember, it is an interesting form as Subital said it is nothing new but it does has a different flavor. The movements do appear to be shorter and lighter if you know what i mean.
I try to run to Chinatown this weeken to see do they still have this book in print.



02-15-2001, 01:59 AM
I saw that someone wrote that there were other Hung Gar lineages besides those from Tang Fung and Lam Sai Wing. I was wondering since a lot of people left Mainland China to escape to Hong Kong and Taiwan, did any Hung Gar lineages transfer to Taiwan?

Also, DF, you wrote that in the old days, most of the training was in basics and foundational stuff and the forms were not as emphasized. Could you explain to us whippersnappers what training back then was like? :) I do agree that nowadyas there does appear to be an awful lot of emphasis on forms in many schools.


...don't think you are, know you are...

02-15-2001, 03:50 AM
Let me see how best to answer your question.
We do a lot of drills such as stances training both stationary and mobile, a lot of bridge works, bags works, equipments training etc. A lot of emphasis on san shou ( combination of techniques) with partners,free sparring. You can say we train like a boxer does in a boxing gym but we do kung fu.
Forms serve many purposes for us. One being you do it on your own when there is no partner around. Second it serves as a collection or a text book of techniques and combinations for us to draw informations from. It is like a refrence book.
Going back to the original question, the techniques that we pratice are techniques from the forms , so when we do actually learn the forms ,we are already familiar with the movements thus we can learn it relatively easy and fast.
Kung Fu is a fighting art, techniques come before forms. There are thousand of techniques and almost infinite amount of combinations. It is very difficult to remember all the possible techniques and combinations without some sort of system. Forms serve that purpose, it groups together the techniques and flavor of the style for us to remember and to draw informations from.

I hope i answer your question , if not let me know, I try to be more specific.


02-15-2001, 04:01 AM
Thanks DF, that clarifies a lot - especially like the boxer-gym analogy.

Just a quick questions (not only to DF but to others in the community as well) - when you study/train/work on your techniques, i.e. from the forms, are they taught to you (or do you teach them) as "here is the technique for that section" or as "here is an example of a technique that can be derived from those movements"? Meaning, the first method I guess would be more the sifu teaching/telling the student what the "official" techniques for the forms are whereas the second method the sifu gives the student an idea of what the techniques can be and lets him work our the variations on his own. I've had experience with both methods and find that the first method is good for beginners becasue it gives people stuff to work with fast, but the second method is better for the advasnced student because it makes the student think a little more.

...don't think you are, know you are...

02-15-2001, 05:34 AM
Think you answer your own question. Also it is important to pay attention to the not so obvious interpertation in the forms.

Boy, I talk more than I normally did tonight. Just a little excited with cool Hung Ga discussion for a change ;) :rolleyes: :cool:


02-15-2001, 09:29 AM
DF, keep the discussion coming. It's actually rare when KFO doesn't degenerate into some lame flame war instead of being constructive and educational discourse.

Anyway, while we're on the subject of subforms of Hung Gar, does anyone have any information about village style Hung Gar? It's hard (dang near impossible) to find information about it. Any info would be appreictaed - history, name of forms, important people in the lineages, etc.

...don't think you are, know you are...

Paul Skrypichayko
02-15-2001, 09:48 AM
With past masters, and my present masters, I've learned both ways; being taught the techniques/applications/training first, and learning the forms/routines first.

I think it depends on a lot of factors, like your learning style, your master's teaching style, and what material you're coverring.

02-16-2001, 06:05 AM
I am no expert of the village Hung, but I will share what I know of it.
Village Hung is a fairly new term, it was called Lo Hung or translated as Old Style Hung. Lo Hung is not any specific lineage but refers to any Hung lineages that is not from the Wong Fai Hung lineage. There are many lineages within the Lo Hung. From what was told to me, in the old days, the villages elders would hire sifus into their villages to teach martial arts. It was very common that each of the hired sifu will teach one or two sets and moved on to the next villages. As a result, the students within the village might have had several different sifus during the course of their training. Eventually, some of the more gifted students will become sifus of their own village and took over the teaching responsibility. Thus the official line began.
It is very hard to trace back any of the village Hung styles because by in large, the teaching stayed within the village and hardly spread out until more recent time.
I have witness several village hung masters from China. I found their stances tend to be a little higher and the hand movements a little shorter. Tom Jan in New York is a famous Village Hung sifu from Toisan China.
Hope this help, maybe there are other village Hung members on the forum can contribute.


02-16-2001, 11:58 AM
Although i have only seen two systems of "Village Hung" I would say that DF was fairly accurate from his description. At least from what i've seen thus far.

Supposedly Gee Sim helped to elongate and widen the stances of the Southern rebels. Prior to his imput, many of the systems in the south were said to have more narrow horse stances and closer/tighter hand techniques. Also thier forms could be done in a "4 tile Square".

There are few generations of Hung practioners before the famous Wong Fei Hung "Canton Style". The more you go backwards, who can say for sure with all of individualism and diversity...what Hung Style looked liked?

What strange twists and/or oddities may be out there still undiscovered in a small hometown village branch?


02-16-2001, 07:04 PM
Ha SAy Fu mentioned (a few posts back) the version of Moi Fa Kuen he learned. I learned the same version in Hong Kong in CW's old school.

It seems a part has been added to the beginning and the end if you compare the form with both John Leong's version and Chan Hon Chung's version.

The added part seems to be based on Chin Cheong (war palm set, created by Lam Sai Wing.)

Does anybody know when the wooden dummy was added?
I have only seen Chan Hon Chung and the Chiu family doing it. Do the other lineages have it too?

Paul Skrypichayko
02-17-2001, 02:27 AM
In the HKCMAA (Hong Kong Chinese Martial Arts Association) yearbook in 1976, I found an article by a Cantonese historian. In it, he metioned that at the time of Hung Hei Guen, their horse stance was only 14 inches in width. I assume this is their fighting stance, or yee gee kim yeung ma (sheep catching stance / wing chun stance).

The wooden dummy in Chan Hon Chung's lineage is not really a form or a set group of exercises. Mainly just numerous drills and exercises, similar to using a sophisticated punching bag. I've heard of the wooden dummy being used by Lam Sai Wing, but no details before that time. There are some friends from Lam Jo's lineage that train the wooden dummy as well (comming from Lee Yat Ming and Tang Kwok Wah).

As far as I know, I've only heard of Lam Jo's people ever mentioning Chin Cheong; which leads me to believe that it may be instead created by Lam Jo.

For the Wing Lam students out there. Do you know if your sifu learned his Ji Fei Do (General's knife / western style sabre) from Lam Jo or Chiu Wei? Anybody else have this form

02-17-2001, 09:37 PM
Where in the city does Master Tom Jan teach? Have any contact info for him?
I'm interested in learning more about the Viallage Hung style.

02-17-2001, 10:46 PM
Sifu Tom Jan teaches in NYC. He only offers private lessons and only speaks the local dialect of Tosianist. He is in his late 70's but still stronger than most ppl half his age. :D



02-18-2001, 03:25 AM
Is there anyone that speaks english in NYC and knows the village style?

02-20-2001, 07:04 AM
maybe you should ask TenTiger, I know he studies different branches of the Hung Ga system. Maybe he can helps you in your search.


South Paw
02-28-2001, 01:45 AM
In the early thirties of the last century a Kuoshu Institute was set op in Guangzhou(Canton). Wellknown masters of the southern styles joined this Institute. Lam Sai Wing of Hung Gar Kuen was also involved.

"At this new Kuoshu Institute northern and southern styles were mixed, forming new and effective techniques" (Shaolin Long Fist Kung Fu by Yang Jwing Ming and Jeffery Bolt).
The Institute was closed when the Japanese invaded China in 1937.

What influence did the Kuoshu Institute have on the curriculum of Hung Gar?

South Paw

04-03-2001, 03:05 AM
A while back someone asked about the Three Shapes Form: Snake, cat and crane mixed form.
I was in Chinatown and finally able to purchase this old book. According to the auhtor of the book, it is a recent form created by Leung Wing Hung( sp?). Leung was a disciple of Master Lam Sai Wing. i am still in the process of reading the book, pretty interesting so far. I thought i share this new info with everyone.


Shaolin Master
04-03-2001, 05:15 AM
Thank you

04-05-2001, 07:57 AM
Goksut, did you say you avoid going into another Hung Ga school due to possible friction between styles? I personally have never had a problem with this. Wherever I go, if I run into another "Hung Brother", for the most part, there is an instant bond between us. Certainly, there are a few out there who for reasons of their own, see anyone else out there as competition, but I avoid such people. Who has the time to deal with attitudes? Hey, I have a school to run!;-) David Latin, I learned some village Hung Kuen from Robert Chu, and from Tsang Wai-Ming-they were pretty similar to the LSW and TF, but emphasized a few diferent techniques, and althogh they both had sei-ping mah, they also made much use of yee ji mah. There also used to be an old man who taught in the park in flushing, near 45th named Sifu Ng. He didn't want to open up a school, because he was afraid or the gangs, so he winds thread in a sweatshop-sad. His Hung Kuen looked more upright and akin to wing chun, and he also had a great luk dim bun gwun, and a very fluid tai chi set as well. I'm not sure if he's still there, but we used to "play" the staff together.(****, there's only 24 hrs in a day, and with a school,two little girls, etc it sure is hard)

04-05-2001, 04:18 PM
What Gotsuk is refering to is that there are certain protocal when visiting another kwoon.
I understand these type of tradition is not as important nowaday as it used to but however there are still some schools here and back in the far east that still takes it seriously.


Grays Anatomy
04-05-2001, 07:15 PM
DF - what kind of protocols?

I was always interested in stopping by other schools to say hello but often had concerns over what the "proper" way to introduce myself would be.

"Remember, that amateurs built the ark. Professionals built the Titanic."

04-06-2001, 06:32 AM
If you are visiting another school as a representative of your own school, a phone call should be made ahead of time or in the old days a card stating your lineage and a gift as a friendly gesture. Bottom line when I talk about protocol, the school that you are visiting should know that it is a friendly visit and not an act of challenge (unless that is your intention then it is a different story lol)
Once you are in the school, should pay respect to the school alter. Don't touch any weapon. Don't step onto the training floor without an invitation or start touching any of the school equipments. If there are students training, keep your opinion to yourself etc. Just use common sense.
The most important of all, make sure that the school you are visiting does not have any conflict with your own school in the past. It is always a good idea to check with your own sifu first before visiting someone else school. There might have been history in the past that you are not aware of.


02-06-2009, 11:10 AM
A while back someone asked about the Three Shapes Form: Snake, cat and crane mixed form.
I was in Chinatown and finally able to purchase this old book. According to the auhtor of the book, it is a recent form created by Leung Wing Hung( sp?). Leung was a disciple of Master Lam Sai Wing. i am still in the process of reading the book, pretty interesting so far. I thought i share this new info with everyone.


I know this was posted a long long time ago, but maybe DF is still around or someone else may be of help. I'm a relative of Leung Wing Hung, the creator of the Snake Cat Crane Form, and I am looking for a copy of the original book that was published in the 1950's. I'd really appreciate it if anyone willing to part with their copy would contact me. Thanks! - Eric

02-06-2009, 04:57 PM
I practice this set and it's a great form.
Check with some of the posters at this forum. Here is a thread I started about that set.


02-07-2009, 02:47 PM

Long time no speak! :) PM me, let's catch up.