Hockey Dad Trial and Martial Artists

[nightwing_38116]

I've been following this on Court TV and am wondering how this effects your mindset as a martial artist. We train for many reasons. If we train and gain any proficiency in our chosen art we can be a threat to the average Joe. If forced to defend ourselves, do you feel that we could be scrutinized more harshly? I am anxiously awaiting the verdict and look forward to discussing the ramifications with my instructor as well. I also feel that many are using the defendant's size as justification of his guilt. I've seen fights where smaller guys have initiated fights with a larger opponent. Please feel free to share your thoughts.

[DelicateSound]

Over in the UK, you have to verbally state to your opponant that you are trained in Martial Arts. IMHO, this is stupid, you are giving away your advantage, looking like an arrogant git, and where's the proof?

Stupid laws. Self-defence is a god-given right.

I agree with what you've said Nightwing.

[mantis108]

It has nothing to do with martial arts but the fallacy of a so-call national sport of Canada. One word to sum it up BullSh*t!

Mantis108

[JWTAYLOR]

I've paid atttention to this one too. One of the defendands justifications for self defense is that, and I quote, "I didn't know, maybe this guy was a black belt. I just didn't know."

There seemed to be allot of confusion about the fight all the way around, and I would have liked a grappler in the court as an expert whitness to show how some of the positions that the prosecutor described were not nearly as helpless as they had suggested.

But, as my deciding factor on what I heard, it seemed like everyone agreed that the dead guy either threw the first punch or came at the big guy in a way that suggested he was winding up for a punch. I think that we, or at least those of us who are now adults, need to understand that normal people stop thinking rationally when they get into a fight, and that a simple push when you aren't thinking strait can end up with someone killing you. People aren't used to such confrontation, and they get into a real "survival" mode sometimes when confronted.

Long story short: if you are an adult and you throw a punch in anger, I think you should EXPECT that the other guy is going to try to kill you.

JWT

[Silumkid]

Not sure how much this will help, but I'll relate an experience I had with this type of thing.

When I worked retail security several years ago, I made an apprehension on a guy who had stolen several items of clothing. Long story short, he came at me with a knife and I reacted with a punch. It knocked him out, but he recovered before he hit the ground (WEIRD!) and continued slashing at me with the blade. A co-worker had called police who arrived quickly and helped to restrain the man. I later had to report to court procedings in order to possibly be charged with "excessive use of force". The defense had information that I have no idea how they got...my martial arts training, certain parts of my military experience. I believe the only thing that saved me was witness accounts and the fact that the police report stated that they found drugs in his system and a gram of coke in his pocket.

So yeah, I think we do get scrutinized a little more than the "average Joe".

[LEGEND]

Well the situation also says the big man after knocking the smaller man to the ground finish him with more punches( 10 or more )...

[Ryu]

You know what, LEGEND, and others on the board?

This is probably the one thing that I am afraid of. I try to avoid fighting a lot because of the legality of it all. I don't want to be put in jail, have a record, or worse...accidently hurt someone more than I mean to.

And LEGEND, you got me thinking.... a good portion of my training is ground and pound. I do it because (as you can see) it is what happens in a lot of real fights. And it's effective.
I'm not that big. I'm about 5'8, 175-180 now, and if I do get into a fight that I'm not sure I can win, I will probably try to slam the guy down, get knee on stomach and just go off on punches, elbows, headbutts, etc. My rational is I don't want this guy to fall, and then get back up again (even angrier than before) So I want to ground him and knock him out if I can....
But that, in the eyes of the law, is never "self-defense" but I feel it is truly effective to protect yourself.
I sometimes think that "self-defense" the way the law sees it is unrealistic.

But I do know one thing. A lot of the fights I had I could just restrain the person with judo holds, etc....but if it's serious... and I take someone down and pound them.....
I'm going to jail....whether it's self-defense or not, aren't I? :(

Ryu

[LEGEND]

RYU...**** dood...u're bigger than my scrawny asian ass...i'm only 5ft 7 and 140lbs...lol...but dood...the only way to answer your question is to BALL OUT!!! After u kick ass. Every fight I got into with the exception of the HS scraps I balled out after fighting.

I mean to be honest the big guy out weigh the small guy by 100lbs... and it was one on one...he obviously struck with the intent to hurt the guy...don't blame him since he was struck by a blow...but the law doesn't look at it that way! He was basically killing the guy with a ground and pound! If u're big and the size of a line backer...think about the consequence...u could easily kill US little guys! I mean he was 270lbs??? Probable experience in FOOTBALL. It's like the movie mice and men...it's quite easy for a bigger guy to kill a smaller guy...like an adult killing a child! A couple of punches to the head...and my head slams to the ground over and over...DEATH! That's why as a little guy I have to learn the guard...the guard...the guard...and my standup fighting...and my GLOCK FU.

[Mutant]

this just in on boston.com:

{BREAKING NEWS: Thomas Junta has been found guilty of involuntary manslaughter by a jury in Cambridge. Sentencing is scheduled for Jan. 25. This verdict carries a sentence that can range from probation to 20 years in prison.}

this is a big deal around here cause it was local families involved. the whole thing is very sad and tragic.

i personally am very scared of hurting someone in a fight. years ago i was afraid that i wouldnt be able to hurt someone enough; now its the other way around and i worry about hurting somebody too much and that can hinder your performance when it counts, holding back and worrying about legal problems and what is really right and wrong. in that short time of confusion over the justification, you could be killed though and not have a second chance.

i've thought about this issue a lot and have also been following this case and thinking about how it relates to martial arts, both legally and tactically. i'm not resolved on it yet.

but the old saying 'its better to be judged by twelve than carried by six' has a lot of validity to it. if someone really threatened me or someone else with deadly violence, i'd have to respond with enough violence to protect, possibly lethal violence.

i hope i never have to experience what that man is going through. 20 years in prison is a long time, for loosing your **** in a fight.

[Jeff Liboiron]

was the hockey dad a martial artist?

[Oso]

The most recent issue of JAMA has an article on the law and self defense.

I'm not familiar with the incident that everyone is talking about but it seems that the relavent issue is that most state and federal laws demand that you retreat if at all possible and to cease 'your' assault when there is no longer a threat.

I'm not quoting here, just my recollection of the article.

...but, yeah, it sucks that in an incident we will be scrutinized more so than your average person. That's why I work on grappling and chin na...less blood. 'course, as stated, even well trained martial artists will not be thinking 100% straight in a fight. I guess for me part of the goal is to back up the physical discipline with the mental discipline to stay calmer and not do too much damage. I'm rather proud to say that in 7 years as a bouncer I only hit people twice, but that was when I didn't pull off the chin na and was looking at getting hit myself.

Does everyone use some sort of heirarchy in their teaching to pass on a sense of appropriate responses? I think that in today's society it is just as important as passing on the physical skills, especially when you, as an instructor, could be held accountable for your students actions.


I think I'll go live with the bears. They're easier to understand.

Matt

[shinwa]

Just screw the ground and pound philosophy. I mean that should be a last resort IMO. It's a pretty dangerous tactic both offensively and defensively. It's great for tourneys because the gloves protect one from inflicting TOO much dmage, but otherwise...

Grappling is such an awesome art and there are SO many other options available to you, so much joint manipulation. You don't have to rely on slamming your opponent to the ground and punching him in the head with all of your might until he stops moving. No. IMO Martial arts are about control. Different techniques for different situations and all. You'd be much afe breaking his wrist or some crp and then splitting. But the ground and pound philosophy opens up sooooooo many oppurtunities for a manslaughter rap. Slam the guy on concrete he could bust his head, hit him in the face down there hard enough his head is gonna be banging against the cement over and over. I mean ground and pound triuly is effective, but it's something you can see kids doing in the school yard. meaning that since the ground and pounmethod can be so effdective, it should be used sparsely. Like finger jabes, throat strikes, or any other such easy to apply heavy damage crud. Sometimes simplicity works against us. There's a point where it becomes overkill. As martial artists we train our bodies to be weapons, therefore in a conflict we have to be REALLY careful what techniques we use in a fight. They're gonna do alot more damage to your average joe than it would to your brothers in training.

Oh dude, dont think I'm bashing you. Nothing but respect for you bro.:)

[jun_erh]

The people I've seen interviewed on TV all seem to think the charge involuntary manslaughter, was just. I don't think he was an innocent guy acting in self defense. Everyone knows how parents have been acting at sporting events. I think he was angry because his son was losing on the ice. No one said the hockey coach was a saint, but that doesn't mean he deserved to be pummeled to death. Junta also lied about the number of punches and had his son lie too. The woman who witnessed the event was screaming at him to stop. I think they went easy on him personally. My sympathies go out to both families.

[thekuntawman]

the problem with this guy junta is he was guilty of showing off and to much pride. when he clearly won the fight, after taking down the small guy and hitting him, he did not stop, he kept pounding on him until unconsciousness. i believe he kill him by accident, but it was that he did not think about consequence, and he was just acting out a fantasy he may had before about kicking some ass like a day drem why this guy costin died.

people have to much pride today, they cannot accept an ass whipping, and they have the need to say "i beat his ass" i bet you junta and his boys celebrated in the car. why he couldnt let him up after dominating him, is pride. and dont give me this self defense garbage, there was no real threat like a mugging or whatever, just two guys who are showing who got the biggest balls, and one guy went to far.

[Budokan]

From all accounts the coach threw the first punch and the hockey dad beat the living sh*t out of him. (Okay, if you want to get technical, beat him to death. Nitpickers.)

Got late-breaking news for you. If somebody throws a punch at me after I've told them they were too rough with my kids during practice, do you think I'd just stand there and let the b*stard hit me without retaliating? This simply looks like another example of someone not willing to take responsibility for his actions: the hockey coach, and it backfired on him.

Too g*dd*mn bad.

Still, having said that, as a good martial artist I would hope I have the wisdom to know when to stop and not keep hitting the guy after he's unconscious... In another words, I would have to take responsibility for my actions as well. It works both ways.

But that little hockey coach punk should never had thrown that first punch. That kind of stupid thinking can get you killed...and it did him.

[Ford Prefect]

Obviously I believe in self-defense, but a jury of his peers as well as many outside the courtroom believe Junta took it way too far. Who cares if the small guy struck first? Junta pinned the 100 lbs lighter Costin on the ground and beat him to death. All witnesses including Junta's own son say they were screaming for him to stop in fear that he was killing Costin.

The law states we are obligated to repel an attack with only enough force necessary. Junta took is far beyond that line and deserves any jail time he gets. He widowed a woman and left children to grow up fatherless because he didn't have control over his emotions. He's getting off easy.

I'm from the Boston area, and my coworkers who have children involved in youth hockey tell me that this (a fight at the rink) isn't out of the ordinary. Parents have to learn how to control themselves. Be role models for your kids for God's sake.

[jun_erh]

You silly Cheap Trick fanatic. "Too God**** bad" Yeah, too god**** bad for him!! He's going to jail!!! Not only that, he killed a guy in his hometown and in front of his own kid. There lives will go right back to normal I'm sure. It's reality, not just philisophical principles here, yunno? Obviously, you can't always be the good guy when someone is being a ***** (which from most accounts, the hockey coach WAS) but it's not you and him on a desert island either. oh forget it:(

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

Budokan is correct.

[Ryu]

I think all humanity should die.


...........UH.....ahem I mean uh..
Hmm :( The "Evil Ryu" stuff is coming again...
I think I'm tired from a busy week... :D

Ryu

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

i'm with ryu.

[scotty1]

I hadn't heard about this. It's really sad, for both families.
The guys involved both sound like *******s. I dunno, maybe they weren't, and they let their emotions get the better of them.

[Budokan]

Calm down, Jun_erh. It was a good life lesson for the kid: "Don't take any bull$hit off of anybody for any reason."

That's one kid who will refuse to let anyone punk him in later life. Frankly, we need more people like that other than the run-of-the-mill garden variety sheeple we get now. (Although, speaking as a heavily hung Alpha Male, it's somewhat nice living in a world of panty-waisted sheeple. I get to do what I want and watch the cowering mice scurry to do my bidding.)

Anyway, it's obvious the jury agreed, otherwise they wouldn't have only found him guilty of 'involuntary manslaughter' which is nothing more than Murder Lite. This guy won't serve more than a couple of years (being a first timer) and maybe not even that.

Loud mouthed ratheads who don't know whereof they speak need to keep their f*cking yaps shut. Sometimes it backfires on them. 'Nuff said.

[Ford Prefect]

Budokan,

So if some skinny punk talks smack to me and tries to punch me, then I have a right to kill him? I just don't see the reasoning. I'm definately not one of the run-of-the-mill, cry-baby, new generation liberals seeing everything through an idealistic cloud. Maybe it's just because I live so close to where this happenned and know people involved in that league, but Junta was way over the line. He deserves jail time even if it is just 3 years. (minimum sentence I believe) I just see people making too many excuses for their actions.

[scotty1]

Normally you make sense, but:

"That's one kid who will refuse to let anyone punk him in later life."
No, that's one kid who just saw his dad kill someone with his bare hands while he screamed at him to stop. For the next two years he won't have a dad. I hope his mum has a good job. Kid'll probably never do anything physical again his whole ****ing life.

"Frankly, we need more people like that other than the run-of-the-mill garden variety sheeple"

I agree that the world needs more decisive, assertive people.
I do not agree that the world needs more people who don't have enough self control to stop when they are killing someone over a game. Do you really think Junta was justified?

Re-read your last post Budokan. Do you really agree with yourself?

[Frank Exchange]

Actually, in response to an earlier poster, here in the UK you do not have to state that you are a martial artist before entering into a fight.

It is a myth from the 1970s, along with the myths that a karateka had to register their hands as lethal weapons with the police, and warn a person 3 times (!) that they did karate before striking a blow, and carry an id card stating that they were a martial artist.

I dont quite know how the myths got started, possibly an over enthusiastic police officer "recommended" the ideas, and they got ingrained into the MA conciousness, maybe because they sounded kind of cool, although completely impractical. I remember repeating the myths as a kid, particular when I had just started judo!

Anyway, as the current UK law stands, if you are attacked, you are allowed to use reasonable force to defend yourself. The level of force must be proportional to the threat. Interestingly, the law allows pre-emptive strikes if you are in fear of your life or serious bodily harm. However, you must be able to justify the level of force to the police, and a court and jury if necessary.

The magistrates and police can be intelligent and use common sense, and do realise that claiming a martial arts skill is likely in some cases to inflame the situation rather than defuse it.

[Budokan]

No, Junta should never have killed the guy. Even I agree he went too far in that. He also made the mistake of going back to hit the guy some more after he had already knocked him out. That's what really got him into trouble and I'm not trying to condone that second action in any way.

Like I said in a post up towards the top, Junta has to take responsibility for his actions, just like everybody else. Nobody should be held immune from that. And, yes, that 100-pound coach should have thought twice before he took a swing at a 350-pound hulking bruiser.

[Ford Prefect]

OK. I agree with that.

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

also, as a little guy myself, i can say that if i come at you, and you don't stop me by doing whatever you need to do, i am very capable of hurting you to the extent that my rage demands. not all of us hobbit folk are push overs.

maybe the bigger guy had a run in with a small fighter in the past and treated this guy as the same threat or perhaps he saw it that way to begin with. i know that much is speculation, but i don't see size as any type of issue in this matter other than the fact that any little dude should accecpt that he might get really hurt if he goes around attacking big dudes. i aint no b!tch, but i aint no moron either ... thus i accept this possibility.

[PaleDragon]

i think that if a person is attacked...they automatically gain the right to use as much force as they feel needed to save themselves...we are not the police...human beings have the right(at least where i live) to live their life w/o being attacked...im sick of hearing about the rights of criminals...if you decide to attack someone, you are violating their rights...it should be expected to try nothing short of killing you to get home to their family.
I'm a peaceful person, but it's not my place to make assumptions about what other people's goals are when they swing at me first. I'd over-estimate

[jun_erh]

how's he going to protect his family while he's in jail? Obviosly he DOESN'T are about his family at all.

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

if he intended to kill the guy i might agree with you.

[Black Jack]

I agree with Budokans first post.

This "little" guy was no innocent victim to parental sports violence or a person unused to violent behavior.

Criminal records have shown that Michael Costin was arrested and brought into court 36 times between 1979 and 1995 on charges which incleded assault and battery on a police officer, illegal gun possession and violations of restraining orders.

Michael Costin has been to prison "7" times with sentences of up to a year and a half.

The guy just bit off more than his attitude could chew.

Junta won't get more than a few months when the dust settles, watch it happen.

[David Jamieson]

Here's an old chestnut "To err is human, to forgive, divine".

The accused is responsible for his actions regardless of the story that is formed in the media and given to us to perceive very generally as we are wont to do.

I think it is yet another display of rips in the fabric of society.

Would this have happened 30 years ago?
Why yes, it certainly would have.

Are there cases "like" this where violence became a factor in little league sports? Parents getting vocal and even physical with one another over game calls? This is a real problem in the north american social construct.
This is an instance where a fellow human lost their life in a setting that is conducive to aggressive behaviour.

How much aggression and violence, inside of -our- society, are we willing to accept as "justifiable"?

To me, that is the bigger question than the folly of the accused.

peace