"Warrior Races"

[Black Jack]

I have been reading through James Dunnigan's book "The Little Secrets of the Vietnam War" and I came across a small passage that got my brain jucies moving on a subject that has crossed my mind once or twice.

Here is the passage (in reference to the Montagnard tribesmen/jungle fighters who were American allies in the Vietnam war.)

"The relationship was similar to what the British established with the Gurkha and other troops from what they called "warrior races". By providing these troops with modern equipment, weapons and training and the services of first-rate officers, combat units of exceptional quality cout be turned out."

This made me me think about what people have termed warrior races or those I think of warrior races, hardened people like the Gurkha, the Montagnard, the Shan, the Filipino Moros and of course the fierce Kachin tribesmen who fought by the Allies to stalk and kill their hated enemy the Japenese in WWII.

Why do you think some of these cultures/races showcase such a natural warrior spirit??

Why do other cultures seem to lack this in a "mass generalized outward apperance" and need a cause to bring this spirit forward when others just seem to live it.

I mean the big difference between a whole warrior culture and a person who would be deemed a warrior individual.

Maybe I am making no sense but I thought the topic might be of interest.

Here are some pictures for those who are interested in this sort of thing and to make my conceptual and vague post a little bit more colorfull.


Here is a pic of a Kachin guerrilla fighter with a OSS officer, check out the dha on his hip.

http://www.army.mil/cmh-pg/books/wwii/70-42/curl.JPG

Here is a pic of a group of organized Kachin Rangers

http://www.army.mil/cmh-pg/books/wwii/70-42/Kachra.JPG

Here is a pic of the 6th Ranger Battalion at Dingat Island

http://www.army.mil/cmh-pg/books/wwii/70-42/6thran.JPG

Here is a British Commando instructing the 29th Ranger Battlion

http://www.army.mil/cmh-pg/books/wwii/70-42/britcom.JPG

The last two were just added for your viewing pleasure.

[reemul]

I would however like to point out that Races don't exist on this planet.

Now that the human genome has been maped it has concluded that the differrence between a 300 pound black man and a 115 pound white woman is less than a fraction of a percent.

but anyway interresting post non the less.

[Stacey]

There is no warrior race anymore than there is a basket weaving race. As cultures develop they specialize. Many cultures such as the English required civilians to practice martial arts (yeomen) to improve the army and decrease
The vietnamese are no tougher than the Irish or Polish people. Poor oppressed people with no options fight better. Sun Tzu said so.

Hunting/gathering groups will have more one on one fighitng ability, but farmers have the organization, number and technology to wipe them out. For reference see Genesis and the myth of Can and Abel or the american pioneers and the Indians.Then there are exceptions, such as the Shuar. The only indigenous tribe to fend off colonialization. They were head hunters and their carrying capacity was dependent on this. As a result, they had more of an advantage.

Then there are the French, who countless times have been more organized, with more numbers and better technology and still got wiped out by the English. This is because the English were more fond of group sports that required communication and working together, the French were more fond of Tennis and fencing and other individual sports. IN addition fighting amoung youth is seen as normal and part of a pecking order to the English, while the French look to verbal dexterity to establish a pecking order.

Poor people are better fighters, but it has nothing to do with race. You have been reading too much Lord of the Rings.

[Black Jack]

(Edited out the vulgar statement)

Christ, I can not stand ignorant people.

Wait a minute!!!!!!!!

I just remebered the anti-troll ignore button.

The dumb twat is for the unedited verison of her stupid reply.

[Stacey]

Ok fine, your right I will rank the warrior races.

1. Vietnamese
2. Blacks
3. Eskimos
4. White Catholics
5. White Prodestants
6. Mexicans.

Is this the kind of ignorant ****e you would rather read? can I go with you to your next kkk meeting?

[Black Jack]

You are so freakin dense.

Did you even comprehend what I had written, what the context was, what the whole thing was in reference to?

You are making up your own contexts to what was written and they are way, way off base.

[reemul]

Hey Black Jack, to answer your question I think tradition has a lot to do with warrior "cultures"

A lot of your hard core traditional tribal cultures resist technological advancement, which we can all testify to as making our lives considerably easier.

[Stacey]

Why do you think some of these cultures/races showcase such a natural warrior spirit?

I think I answered the question pretty well. They are poor and have no way out, they play sport or are active in martial arts that are not antiquated, or they are on their home turf and know the land better.


WHy do certain cultures excell at pottery?

[Black Jack]

Thank you Reemul.

I am not meaning the literal description of who is "tougher" on a one on one fight but who seems to live in a warrior culture and showcases its spirit on a general scale.

I have no doubt that the benefits can easily manifest themselves in a physical sense, hardened people, make tough *******s.

Even if I did not know a little about their martial beliefs I would not want to **** with the Kachin fighter in the first picture.

[Black Jack]

Ok, I'll bite

Stacy, what is with the change in attitude.

First of all, I still don't think you understand what I mean by the post, or at least you did not when you started it out by calling me stupid or dumb or whatever it was before you edited it.

Martial arts that are not antiquated, know the lay of the land, what are you talking about?

I am talking about spirit not tactical applications.

[Daniel Madar]

I'm afraid I'm going to have to side with Stacey on this one.

The concept of one "race" being more warlike ranks right up there with physiognomy in my book.

[LEGEND]

stacey...thanks...i'm viet!

LOL...I don't believe in the warrior class thang...the reason why viets in the war fought was based on desperation! So they ended up fighting more fiercely...even now...viets are small...we can kickbox or grapple but against a middle weight or heavy weight guy...we're toast! That's why viet attack in PACKs or carry GUNs...cause we're smaller...SUCKs...

[diego]

thats talking about the potential of human biengs,but we do have a pointa-z history,and thier were tougher gangs,so thru all the wars and triumpths in history,wich civilizations would you say kicked the most ass.

[Stacey]

Blackjack, the change in attitude was that I was responding to the post and then I saw that you started it, so I took away the insult.

I knew you were talking about spirit and so was I. Think Appocalypse now, that crazy general (or was he) or Vlad the Impaler, or the Huns. They didn't have anything to block "the horror" and were more successfull as a result.

Same thing with the ninja and their release from Bushido.

Hope this adds something to the conversation.

[Black Jack]

Look, I apologize for coming back so strong but I was like WTF is with the insults on a post that was clearly marked conceptual in nature.

I have edited out any unthinking and harsh remarks I made to you in my own haste. You should think though before you insult people no matter who is the writer, as the "dumb" point you assume they are making is not what they might of intended in the first place, and it is only your first impression of the content.

Sometimes a post can come across different than what the poster was in reference to. To you, this seems to very well be the case at hand, my goal is not who is tougher, but the difference in warrior spirit, something which you have addressed in your latest posts.

This "warrior" spirit though, call it instinct, different morals on aggression in combat, or whatever, but I believe it can lead to a much hardened psychological outlook which can effect a persons fighting ability.

The Kachin people for example are a hardened Burmese jungle people, they were one of the last tribes to stop head hunting in the mid 20th century, they eat the raw hearts of their enemies to gain their strength, they view death and hardship in a much different light than a yuppie accountant from Topeka Kasansas who plays golf on the weekends.

Just my thoughts on the original topic I had in mind.

[Daniel Madar]

So what you are talking about is the social acceptability of killing in a society?

Like the way that Bushi had the right to kill commoners at will in old Japan? Etc?

In that case I'd agree with you. Studies have shown that even with cats, natural predators, only 35% have the natural instinct to kill their prey rather than just chase it. The rest have to be taught by their elder cats.

If you look then at the percentage of people who pass sniper training, or the stats of people who actually aimed their weapon in combat in Vietnam, you will see there is a relatively low percentage of people who will just step up and kill. Naturally in societies where killing is socially acceptable the people will be better at it.

I'm not a big fan of the whole "warrior" mystique thing myself though. A killer is a killer. What you're asking is, are these people better killers? The answer is then yes. But it's societal and not genetic, as you point out.

[yenhoi]

when you say "warrior" spirit, are you attaching some ethical concepts or morals or whatever to that, or just people that make war and kill other people?

who do you consider to be the top, say, 5 peoples, or cultures, or whatever - to have the best "warrior" spirit?

obviously your not saying that those indigenous "warriors" could defeat american "warriors" or british "warriors" at war?

was your question also political? it seemed to be at first.

[JasBourne]

The only true "warrior race" is the Klingons.

Seriously though, I think someone already touched on the fact that what makes a fierce culture is initially a high degree of desperation and hatred. A people that has nothing to lose will fight much harder than a people that fears to lose what they have (territory, structure, economy, whatever). Desperate people will attack in packs, martyr themselves, fight like maniacs against overwhelming odds, simply because they figure they're already dead, so why not take a bucketload of hated enemy down with them.

I think you will find, if you look at history, that once a people has vanquished the stronger foe and managed to enjoy an extended peace over a number of generations, that the 'fierceness' of that culture remains mostly in its reputation rather than in its members.

[reemul]

Look I made my comment about the genome mapping because I saw a special on it and thought it made an interresting discovery of the human race, but I still understood the context of What Black Jack is saying. I would have elaborated on my earlier response but I had to go, just like now.

forget all about the race thing, apply it to cultures, and answer the fu<king questions.

I'll try and answer later when I got time.

[DelicateSound]

Man -I'm almost scared to post!!! :D :rolleyes:

IMHO people develop superior fighting skills thru necessity. Learn to fight or get killed. Simple as that:

*Japanese Samurai - needed to fight, Japan was in turmoil

*VietCong - REALLY needed to fight. [notice how effective the VC were against a far superior Army, they were fighting for their homeland, a passionate cause]

*British and US forces in Burma - they were fighting against a race of people that would fight to the death - no surrender. They learned to be ruthless.

*US Marines in the Pacific - They didn't take prisoners, they just shot them. The Japanese were well known for hiding grenades on their person to kill and maim US forces after they'd been captured.

*On the other hand, German forces in Normandy during WW2 were so "soft" from lack of combat that they were a walkover. The only resistance on the beaches was from crack Panzer troops and the SS (see: Omaha beach)

Just my two pence.