Did you know theres a style made for Witches ???

[Leonidas]

It kinda freaked me out at first but i read some more about it . Its called Wiccai and no it's not some super ancient style created thousands of years ago by witches. Listen just read the article. It'll explain everything

Heres the link: http://www.dragonslist.com/articles/styles/index.php?id=61

[LEGEND]

too bad didn't help those witches in salem!

[Sharky]

i originally replied saying " that's interesting " but well, it isn't.

[Leonidas]

Never said it wasn't stupid. Its not like i wanna go learn it. Think about it, why practice MA when you have magic :D

[Sharky]

good point :D

[jon]

I sometimes talk to that guy on Dragonslist. He has some good things to say and is an interesting guy.
His style is basicaly Hung Ga but takes the animals to a bit of another level. Looks interesting from what he has told me though im not sure i would be so interested in it as err im not a pagan...

[kungfu cowboy]

It was founded by Phoenix Pangaryk in the 1990\'s to meet the needs of this rapidly expanding demographic.


Well, I think that's wonderful. And as the imaginary captain of the "Breakdancing William Shatner's Toupee" Shakespearean Bowling Team, I wholeheartedly agree.

[Stacey]

wow painted hung gar!, who give a f&ck?

They have no real root, they aren't ancient, they are a bunch of hippies iwth origins in something they thought up in the 20's.

They should let it go already. I wicca was so good, why did all of Europe convert so readilly (with the exception of the Scandinavian and slavic nations.)

The remnants of those cultures are nearly identical to the Siberian shamanic cultures. All this flower power rule of 3 is crap. Let it die. Its just bad Taoism painted European. Who cares, why not just do the Taoist arts? Better than getting it as a bad painted rumor renditioned by an unqualified teacher who renames it because he/she can't stand with the others.

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

that's all we need is a bunch of goth kids learning how to fight.

i say we kill them all right now while they are still a bunch of pussies.

[Sharky]

"I wicca was so good" - are you trying to beatbox? *heEHeEeHeEHE*

sorry :(

[Sharky]

GDA, you're right about that cum dumpster thing... regardless i better goto bed, it's 5am, i've been up since 8am. it's friday night and i went to the library at 8 and stayed there till 2am.

Go me.

'Nite

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

i still laugh every time i read it.

[GLW]

"They should let it go already. I wicca was so good, why did all of Europe convert so readilly (with the exception of the Scandinavian and slavic nations.)
"

Actually, around the 13th or 14th century CE, the Christian church started a major campaign of terror against Wiccans and pagan beliefs. This was when the ideas about Satanism sprang up.

It was also when the ideas about using natural means such as herbs and things for medicine moved out of the mainstream. At this time, the healing arts in Europe moved from female and male to mostly male dominated and the quick way to get rid of someone was to accuse them of bieng a witch.

Prior to this time, the official position of the Church was that there was NO such thing as a witch or witchraft or magic. After this time, they reversed their edicts and used it to do witch hunts against Wiccans and essentially anyone who spoke out against church doctrine...like Galleleio and others. This change then gave rise to the with hunts that went on for around 300 years, the inquisitions...and a lot of bad things.

So, you ceased being a Wiccan so you didn't have to cease being alive.

I am NOT a Wiccan...just that there was aninteresting piece on PBS radio a couple of days ago on this very topic.

As for the martial art....what a total load of BS...right up there with the guy who claims to teach authentic Aztecan martial arts and those who are now claiming that the new rebuilt Southern Shaolin is and will be the real thing...

Barnum was right.

[Sharky]

i think the avatar is strangely complemetary of it

[DelicateSound]

It was founded by Phoenix Pangaryk in the 1990\'s to meet the needs of this rapidly expanding demographic

Rapidly expanding demographic? You mean the manky, greasy haired kids who wear Slipknot hoodies and trousers with crotches to their ankles thinking they are SO cool because they smell like rat sh!te?

Also - isn't Rapidly Expanding Demographic a term a bit TOO technical for people who failed to evolve out of the 11th century.

How many of these people are there in the world? Of course not counting the people who think they are Wiccan because they have the whole 2nd series of Buffy on DVD.

[Pawa-eri-to]

Delicate sound: Why are you so afraid of Wiccans? The majority of them are just normal people who practice a faith. As to how many people practice Wicca, millions. Of chorse thats not including the religions that are similar. Shinto has quite a few practices involved in it that are similar to Pegan/Wiccan practices. Then there are the native religions of the American indians which focus on nature and natural power/shamanism. I think that your obvious prejuduce comes from being misinformed. I personally am not a Pegan or Neo-Pegan but I do pride myself on my knowlege of religions and try to have an open mind about everything. Even though I dont know what religion you practice I can tell you that it most likely does not advocate hate. All I can say is that you are putting an awfully large amount of your energy into a prejuduce which would indicate that you have an insecurity in your own belief system.

[David Jamieson]

Wicca has been around for ages.
In it's current form, it does have a lot of practitioners who are "unclear" of it's intent of manifestation.

At it's root is healing and herbology. It was at one time considered "withcraft and pagan" but now is representitive of a religious choice for those who do not feel they are mainstream enought to conform to the practices of your typical run of the mill churches.

There is a lot of good information in wicca, especially in the area of herbs and medicines derived from sources around you.
How to concoct, de-concoct , make draughts and remedies much along the same lines as is found in TCM.

On the other side of the coin, there are as many who don't know what it's about claiming to practice it as their neo-pagan religion as there are people who do know.

Kinda like trying to find a good kung fu teacher :D

anyway, there is value in it, there are no martial arts associated with it and there never has been. I haven't read the article yet, but if that statement is made then it is wholly untrue.

wicca is a path of understanding and peace and there is no room in it's tenets for martiality.
If someone isattempting to integrate martial practice with wicca, they will face certain contradiction very soon.

peace

[DelicateSound]

Originally posted by Pawa-eri-to
Why are you so afraid of Wiccans? I personally am not a Pegan or Neo-Pegan but I do pride myself on my knowlege of religions and try to have an open mind about everything. Even though I dont know what religion you practice I can tell you that it most likely does not advocate hate. All I can say is that you are putting an awfully large amount of your energy into a prejuduce which would indicate that you have an insecurity in your own belief system.

Woah! Calm down a little :D

I wasn't knocking Wiccans, I was just making some jokey comments, nothing personally.

FYI, I don't practise any religion at the moment. I used to be a stout Roman Catholic, but I've become a bit disorientated by it, if you know what I mean. I have no problem with other religions, I've dated girls who've been Buddhist, Athiest, C of E etc. Doesn't bother me. I am totally open minded.

I don't know much about it though. Enlighten me if you wish.

[David Jamieson]

Ok, I just read that little snippet.

This is a made up style that someone has decided to create from their mish mash of experience.

i'm certain they would be very hard pressed to present concurrent evidence of it's existance beyond themself.

Hung Gar is not medieval english paganism any more than wu shu is a canadian creation from the deep prairies of southern manitoba.

In other words, someone is pulling someones leg, hahahahahaha :D

peace

[DelicateSound]

Originally posted by Kung Lek
but now is representitive of a religious choice for those who do not feel they are mainstream enought to conform to the practices of your typical run of the mill churches.


Brilliant. Kung Lek - Master of sectarian sarcasm :D

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

"i think the avatar is strangely complemetary of it"

you know, i really don't think that i can describe it better than that, but you are definately right.

[Pawa-eri-to]

Delicate Sound: Well in that case, sorry.

[Leonidas]

You have to admit, witches are coming into the mainstream. Charmed, LOTR, Harry Potter. They even did a docum. about witches on PBS.............

[wushu chik]

Obviously none of you know what wicca is all about. To answer a few questions~ It's in the bible. It's been around since before the bible. It's still around. THERE ARE TONS OF PEOPLE THAT BELIEVE IN THE RELIGION!!! I have NEVER heard of their own MA system, but you learn something every day!!!

"but now is representitive of a religious choice for those who do not feel they are mainstream enought to conform to the practices of your typical run of the mill churches. " Kung Lek...that's a pretty BOLD statemen for somebody that OBVIOUSLY knows nothing about what they are referring to!!

Anyone has any more questions...e-mail me. I will be MORE THAN HAPPY to hash this one out!

~Wen~

[Leonidas]

So are you a witch wushu chik?

[David Jamieson]

What I know or don't know doesn't matter.
I was pointing out the incongruity of having martial arts associated with wicca, which is not true.

If I offend anyone with my view that religion is a "choice" made by an "individual" to live life on a "prescribed" path. I apologize.

peace

[Kune]

Ok, I got one thing to say about this wiccan kungfu thing...

*cough* ****! *cough* *cough*

**** new age teenboppers.. have no clue what their doin.. crappin kungfu.. what the shiez man

[Kune]

It filtered out my comment! It waans that bad ;) Well anyways.. if I studied hung gar.. I would be FREAKIN ****ED!

[Stacey]

Lets not forget that witches used babies in there spells for their own personal power. There is a BIG difference between attuning to nature and trying to control it and other people.

They burned witches for a reason.

[Chang Style Novice]

Can't resist the cheap joke.

Nothin' says lovin' like somethin' from the coven!:D :rolleyes: :p

[Satanachia]

It does become apparent very few people know anything about wicca. Unfortunately this often applies to people who claim they're wiccan as well. Now i'm aware religion can be a touchy topic for many, so i'll try and be gentle...

Wicca IS NOT an ancient religion.
Wicca is generally credited as being created around the
1930's-40's by Gerald Gardner.

The myth of course is that it is an ancient religion. And of course, who knows, maybe some of it is. Gardener claimed that it was ancient, but the fact is, even if it was, most of it would of been, or rather has been, lost and forgotten.
Rather, even if some did remain, the rest he fleshed it out with borrowed beliefs from many other religious, spiritual and magickal sources.

Others (many) of course believe wicca has no ancient structure what so ever, and was created simply by taking a few little known celtic beliefs, a deity structure, and a mix from modern ceremonial magick orders.

But don't let this make you think its any less viable. Many wicca and new age practices are very similar or in fact identical to many other ones, such as energy manipulation and such(chi), meditation and other things which seem derived from "eastern" religions, such as buddhism and raja yoga.

The real problem i find with wicca is with some of the practicioners, although this problem is hardly limited to wicca, just as there are many who claim to be christian, but have never even read parts of the bible or have any knowlege of their own religion.

Similarly, wicca suffers because of its image and some of its practicioners. Specifically, the "teenage witch" phenomenon.
The sometimes "gothic" rebellious teen, who believes that if they watch a few episodes of "charmed", dress in black, wear pentagrams and walk around saying "Blessed be", or speaking in "Ye Olde Englishe", they're full ball wiccans.

Of course there are some practicioners out their who are serious about what they do, and in my opinion, could even rival chinese traditional medicine "masters" with their practice and techniques (of course, alot if not all of those techniques are exactly the same :) )

But this wicca kung fu seems to be a case of the "teenage witch" phenomenon, if its legit. Lets keep everything exactly the same, change the names, and its now wiccan.

Oh well, i guess this is my version of "Wicca 101".:cool:

[jon]

I cant help noticing everyone doing our usual effort of trying to call the nearest thing a fake.
I as i pointed out sometimes I speak to Phoenix Pangaryk and ive had the chance to read some of his thoughts on why he does what he does and why he has picked Hung to go with his religion.
He believes in shape shifting and sharmanism hence the animal and elemental aspects of southern shaolin particualy five animal go very well with his belief system. He doesnt try and push his art and doesnt use it to make profit. He just does it for his own enjoyment and to give his fellow pagans something to train in. There are much better things for us all to be wasting our time on than how one guy has addapted his art to his religion.
I will say openly its obvious from his writings he understands his art and he can be very interesting to talk to. Just comes from a very different walk to many of us.
I will also say he has never tried to start some new fangled new age martial art. He has only adapted what he does to fit his religion and is willing to teach it if people so wish.

[wushu chik]

"Lets not forget that witches used babies in there spells for their own personal power. There is a BIG difference between attuning to nature and trying to control it and other people.

They burned witches for a reason."

Stacey, you get more unintelligent by the day. You really bore me with your moronic remarks.

Another thing....I am not saying that it IS a martial art, or it IS legit, or whatever...but I really think EVERYONE on this forum needs to get a grip and and open mind of stuff. Everyone here (I am including myself in this one) is to quick to judge and jump at a person when they don't "think" the same way as we do. It's time for a change peeps. Because, quite frankly, this is getting a little stupid.

~Wen~

[Sam Wiley]

I'm not a fan of Wicca, and usually I take every opportunity that comes my way to bash it relentlessly...but it sounds ot me like this guy has found something interesting that he can actually apply to his martial art. Personally, I find Anton LaVey's writings on werewolves and lycanthropic metamorphosis to be very similar to what I have learned about the Reptile Brain, and I relate that to the martial arts.

All I'm saying is give this guy a chance to at least explore how a more shamanistic approach might improve martial arts, whether you believe in his religion or not. He may be onto something.

[Leonidas]

So are some people here comparing Qiqong and TCM to Withcraft. If it is then wouldn't it be "Bad" to practice it. I never did feel comfortable practicing qigong since no one really explained anything about it except it helps build chi. But then no one knows what chi is. Dont get me wrong, I have an open mind but thats just my gut feeling

[Daniel Madar]

1. Satanachia, thank you for sparring me that identical post.

2. As a goth, or goth turned yuppie as it were, there may be a higher proportion of Wiccans in the "Goth Scene", but there's also a higher proportion of die hard caucasian Roman Catholics in the "Scene".

3. I personally have always hated Wicca. I view it as Satanism Light. I know many wiccan's from my Goth Daze and they are just as annoying as the "Zen Martial Artists". That is to say, they tend to know F- All about their supposed religion, and make no real effort to follow it, beyond quoting The Craft. ((Which was a good teen angst movie, sad to say.))

4. The hardcore Wiccan's I know are honest about the recent creation of Wicca, but still try to co-opt all pagan activities into their own wonderful new witchy ways. The always seem to ignore those pagan activities that tend to involve bloodshed.


My view on the whole thing is, let people do what they want. Since Wicca is far from organized, I can't really see this catching on anyways.

[David Jamieson]

Wicca has been practiced a whole lot longer than the 30's or 40's.

Check out summerisle in the UK, not to mention the Germanic and other euro versions of same.

These practices date back even before the Romans made it to the Islands.

The blue men, the britons, the picts, the gaels and the celts all had a form of it.

Wicca is very old, probably as old as the cult of mithros or older.

peace

[Daniel Madar]

Wiccans lay claim to the celtic druidic tradition, but there is no historical connection between the two. If you can't accept that basic truth, then, well, there ain't much to talk about now is there? Simply by saying "We do things the way dead people did" does not lend legitimacy to the claim of a historical link.

Heck, I can claim that I'm taoist because I do a taoist martial art, but it doesn't make it true. ((And the historical linkages between daoism and taiji are every bit as tenuous as those between Wicca and early celtic practices.))

Oh, and by the way early Britons, Picts, Gaels and Celts all fall within the same general linguistic-cultural family. A family, I might add which extended far beyond the British Isles, and did not originate there. Technically speaking the practices date back far before the Celts reached the Isles as well. One of the more traditional Celtic groups can be found in spain, for those people who can't seem to disassociate the idea of Celtic from Irish stereotypes.

Funny how Wiccans never seem to work in the Spanish connection. Can it be because they are caught up in an overly romantic view of wandering around talking about fairies, and saying "Blessed Be"? Wouldn't is suck to be Wiccan and say "Que Pasa?" I mean, if they want to talk like that, they'd be doing Santaria...

[Satanachia]

Wicca is only old in the same way that perhaps Islam, Mormons, and co. are "old".
Islam and mormons however have the things that they were derived from still around today.

Wicca is young, in that all its supposed particular ceremonies and beliefs and things were lost. That's if they were ever practiced at all. Unfortunately, its doubtfull we'll ever know for sure.
Just as mormons believe in jesus, the bible and such, doesn't mean that mormonism is thousands of years old.
Similarly, christianity is not as old as judaism.

Wicca may still have "similar" structure as a nature based religion that was practiced many years ago by the celts, but it is not the same, just as Christianity is different from Judaism, and islam different from both of the afformentioned religions.

Of course, it appears Wicca takes many of the same things from ancient nature based religions,such as deities, some cermony, and such, or so it claims. But the creators of wicca, the practioners today, and just people interested in such things, don't really have any reason to believe that to be true. It isn't a case of this religion carring through thousands of years till today. Its more a case of, ancient religion wiped out and largely forgotten, new guy comes along in the 20th century and does his best to start a similar one.

As for the thelma thing, the things i'm aware of are Crowley made an "Abbey of Thelma" or something, a law of thelma, and "Do what thou whilst shall be the whole of the law". I'm pretty grey on it though, and i could be totally off. My memory isn't that good.

But boy oh boy is this moving further and further away from kung fu.

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

"Lets not forget that witches used babies in there spells for their own personal power. There is a BIG difference between attuning to nature and trying to control it and other people.

They burned witches for a reason."

haha

"I find Anton LaVey's writings on werewolves and lycanthropic metamorphosis . .. "

i was a hardcore satanist in highschool, but i thought each of his books made his idea less and less of a religion and more of a prank. i still like the satanic bible and devil's notebook, but i wasnt able to take him completely seriously after satan speaks ... the one published a little while after he died.

i also started to think that maybe having no religion at all is the only true form of satanism as he described.

[anton]

Originally posted by Leonidas
So are some people here comparing Qiqong and TCM to Withcraft. If it is then wouldn't it be "Bad" to practice it. I never did feel comfortable practicing qigong since no one really explained anything about it except it helps build chi. But then no one knows what chi is. Dont get me wrong, I have an open mind but thats just my gut feeling

There is nothing wrong or bad with either witchcraft or qigong. Unfortuneately the former is (IMHO) nothing more than an exercise in modern ritualistic masturbation (and as such can arguably be harmful to particularly influencable individuals), while the latter is an ancient art designed to promote health. There is nothing bad about practicing qigong unless you have a bad teacher or are trying to learn the advanced stuff from a book - in which case it might not be doing you any good.

[DelicateSound]

Originally posted by Kung Lek
Check out summerisle in the UK, not to mention the Germanic and other euro versions of same.

Kung Lek. Do you mean the festival of the Summer Solstice. That is a druid/pagan religious festival.

Wushu Chik. I am completely open-minded and know very little about Wicca. I'm interested though - feel free to educate me :)

GDA a hardcore satanist. Why doesn't that surprise me......

[Daniel Madar]

I used to be a practicing Satanist too, but I grew up in New England, where it's a bit more traditional than popping off to Borders to buy the Satanic Bible and the "Necronomicon".

To traditionalists, Anton Lavey's form of Satanism is not Satanism at all. Even his own daughter broke with him as he got older, to form the Temple of Set. Anton Lavey used satan as an excuse for iconoclastic behavior, not as the core of his belief system. Satanism was not a religion to him, but a rebellion against religions, and had nothing to do with the concept of an Enemy of God, etc.

One of my friends is the son of an SF cop, who said that Lavey used to get busted all the time for having wild party's. So one day he is clearing out a party, and saw all the weird pseudo satanic trappings and says "Hey, if you want to have crazy parties like this, you should register it as a religion, then we won't be able to bust you"

And the rest is history.

[Budokan]

"Lets not forget that witches used babies in there spells for their own personal power. There is a BIG difference between attuning to nature and trying to control it and other people. ."--Stacey

Once again you don't know what you're talking about, fool. Satanachia is another genius who has his facts wrong about Wicca. It's only an ancient pagan religion (much like Christianity--which has numerous pagan elements, believe it or not) dedicated to nature and man's place in it. Wicca is not about using babies, blood sacrifices or Anton LeVay--that's Satanism (And even mainstream Satanism doesn't believe in those practices or engage in them). Get your belief systems straight. Better yet, do a little research first before you start your hate-mongering, narrow-minded religiously intolerant spew.

Oh, here's late breaking news for you. Even Christianity has cannibalistic practices within its so-called civilized tenets: "Here is my body, eat, here is my blood, drink." Sadly, too many so-called fundamentalist Baptist Christians down here in the Deep South don't believe in the old saw: "Love thy fellow man." They actively hate and despise Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, Agnostics, Athiests, Humanists, Catholics, ****sexuals, Feminists (women in general, actually), Liberals, Democrats, and, well, each other. Need I go on...?

Check the glass walls of your own prison (a well-lit prison of one single-minded idea, as Chesterson said) before you start casting crucifixes at other people.

[DelicateSound]

Face it Stacey, all he's got to do is throw in some ladyboy/cyber-transvestite cum dumpster joke, and you're out for the count.

Wow Budokan - you can invent "Dangle the Wonder Mule" and quote Chesterton all in one week. :D

I like this:

Cogito cogito ergo cogito sum (I think that I think, therefore I think that I am.)
Ambrose Bierce, The Devil's Dictionary

[Sam Wiley]

Cogito ergo estis...
(I think, therefore all of you are...);)

-Sam Wiley


I know what you mean about LaVey's later writings. But after all, he WAS a carnival guy. The worst thing you could do would be to actually take Satanism seriously. Think about it, a religion started by a trickster, dedicated to a trickster...who in their right mind would take it seriously? Who in their right mind would NOT? The Church of Satan was started as a business, though, and will always be a business. Religious registration aside, the Church pays taxes, unlike all the other churches in the world, that all whine about how they have mortgages to pay and charity work to do and whatever.

And yes, Satanism is anti-religion period, not a devil-worshiping orgy. In the truest sense of the title, the Satanist is anti-religious, even against atheism, which is believe it or not a religious category as well.

As far as traditionalists go, if you mean "traditional Satanists," then there are none. Traditional Satanists were all either dead or confined to underground societies when the Church came along. Satanism was never a widely organized thing until the Church. All thos people saying they are part of some cult that's hundreds of years old are either on drugs or should be on drugs. And that's the truth.

I wonder what people mean by they were hardcore Satanists "back then," or used to be "practicing" Satanists. You're either a Satanist or you're not. And if you are a Satanist you were born that way. If you're not now, you never were.

Anyway, I'm familiar with Crowley's Book of the Law and the concept of Thelema, as well. "Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law...Love is the Law, Love under Will..." It's actually one of my favorite books.

[Leonidas]

Please, lets not turn this into a Christians are evil, cannabilistic, hateful, single-minded war-mongering confused b*st*rds and witches and satanist are just misunderstood innocents. Didn't know there were so many former satanist :confused:. Anyway please dont turn this into a religious argument. Just agree to disagree. Maybe if people took the time to find out things for themselves and not listen to other misinformed parties talking out of there a$$es every thread wouldn't turn into a p*ssing battle

[wushu chik]

Originally posted by DelicateSound
Wushu Chik. I am completely open-minded and know very little about Wicca. I'm interested though - feel free to educate me :)

DelicateSound....e-mail me and we will chat.

[DelicateSound]

Originally posted by Leonidas
Maybe if people took the time to find out things for themselves and not listen to other misinformed parties talking out of there a$$es every thread wouldn't turn into a p*ssing battle

Where's the fun in that. Let's reinact the crusades!!!

:rolleyes:

I'm with you Leo. So many knobs on this board. I just want to learn about Wicca, is that so bad?

D!ckwads

[wushu chik]

Everybody has their own ideas and personal opinions...just some don't know what they are really fighting for! Most people do not have ANY idea what they are talking about when it comes to different religions, different MA styles whatever, and it all comes down to the fact that not very many people have an open mind to learn about the other things before they start spouting off! It's just my opinion~again!

~Wen~

[DelicateSound]

Wushu Chik: So true, and so sad. Too many single minded people in the world.

[Leonidas]

Exactly what is the aim of being a Wicca. Every religion has an aim. Are they trying to be one with the Great Universal Consciousness or just trying to turn people into toads

[wushu chik]

Leo~
They just want to see how many people in one day can **** them off, so when night falls, they jump on their brooms with all their weird concocted potions, and their little spell book.

Then they go on their hunt...they hunt for the people that ****ed them off, and steal into their rooms, and destroy their lives by turning them into babbling fools (most of which inevitably come to this forum~RALEK) or maybe worse. Maybe they will make them impotent and sterile so that they can not EVER have the misfortune of making another copy of themselves!

~Wen~

[Braden]

Leonidas - Regarding the 'aim of wicca', all of the people I know who call themselves wiccans seem to be rebelling against mainstream religion while maintaining a strong desire to connect with a cultural heritage of spiritualism and ritual. I suppose fulfilling this desire would be the 'aim' of wicca. However, it's rather difficult to categorize or describe wicca as, at least in my experience, it is a haphazard collection of beliefs and practices which can vary dramatically between individuals, and whose only uniting principle is that each was deemed 'wicca-like' by the person doing the collecting. Not that any of this is the rebuke that it may sound like. Also I believe there are some better organized traditions which have had some preserved transmission across generations that usually get lumped into 'wicca' (even by their practitioners), such as Strega. But you'd have to look into each case individually.

[wushu chik]

Wow...Braden..you are so right. Rebels is all they are. Totally against organized religion. 100% truth there.

Uh, try knowing what you are talking about before flapping your jaws. Maybe that's some "wiccans" you know, but thats NOT anything like all the witches I know! You should try talking to people that know what they are talking about, not someone that is just trying to **** off their parents by not going to church.

Wiccans (Witches, Warlocks, ect.) believe that their is a "counterpart" to God...a Goddess. That's what they believe in. Their "aim" is to reach enlightenment on a different level than most Christians (and other religions). They use what they were given (mind, body and soul). Most other religions write off stuff that Witches do, because it's evil or unholy. Well, witches write off what Christians say because it's biased and wrong.

We could really do this for the rest of our lives, and it will make NO difference on the way anyone thinks....I have to do it all the time when I get into the Religious argument with Christians or people from other religions, and they walk away thinking the same thing as they came in with, and the same with me. It's a debate that will never get won...like Politics, ect. It's not anything that's going to change, and everyone has to face it. Not everyone thinks alike, and not everyones going to agree. So, until people actually face this reality and start understanding it, NOTHING will ever change, on ANY level or in ANY conversation.

[Merryprankster]

I just finished reading the fourth book in the Harry Potter series.

Were you trained at Hogwart's by chance?

I'm sorry. I really couldn't help myself :)

But then, I have a hard time taking most things seriously.

Toodles.

PS--Any good at Quidditch?

[Braden]

wushu chik -

I appreciate your comments, but I'm afraid you have completely misread what I posted.

[joedoe]

How does one end up a Satanist? I know that I was brought up as a Catholic and so naturally the basic tenets of Catholicism/Christianity are what I base my world view on i.e. my judgement on right and wrong.

So does anyone just decide to become a Satanist? If so, what drives them to it?

Don't get me wrong - I am not judging those that do. I am simply curious. From where I stand, it doesn't make sense to follow a religion that supports the enemy of God, but that is simply because that is the way I was brought up. I am just trying to get an understanding of people who have a reason for following Satan.

P.S This question is directed mainly at Daniel Madar and/or GDA, but anyone else who understands it, feel free to answer :)

[prana]

Joedoe

On that note, what is the equivalent of the guardian of the wheel of life to Christians and Catholics ? Buddhist have the wrathful Yamantaka. He has the face of a bull.

Curiosity :D


Wheel of Life link = http://www.frij.com.au/dharma/wheel.htm

[joedoe]

Not sure - given that Catholicism doesn't really subscribe to the concept of reincarnation (officially) then I guess there is no Wheel of Life in the Catholic theology. There may be some equivalent concept but I probably am not really qualified to comment.

Does St Peter count (He is supposed to guard the gates of Heaven)? :) Otherwise there are the Arcangels who are the fighting angels. They could be viewed as guardians of a sort.

Anyone else have anything to add to my limited understanding? :)

[Stacey]

well in the US, we have santa clause, the easter bunny and other pagan hollidays. The world tree that we put our presents under etc.

I would really like to see one of those mid summer night orgies come into play. Just imagine....getting together with a group of people your same age and having at all the hotties. Thats something that needs to come back.

[prana]

hmm what about hell ?

Yeah I think I have heard of St. Peter by many other Christians. I wonder who the fighting angels are and what their "roles" are too. Anyone care to comment ?

[joedoe]

Catholicism has/had the concept of Hell (I think the Pope sort of admitted that it wasn't really a place a few years ago) but the way Heaven and Hell works in Christianity is that on the Day of Judgement you are either sent to Heaven or Hell for all eternity. There is no second chance. If you have been a bad person, you go to Hell and you stay there forever.

[Daniel Madar]

Form your own opinion! (http://www.religioustolerance.org/witchcra.htm)

This site is pretty honest. Check it out. And if you are a wiccan and you have a site you prefer, feel free to post it.

The only thing I'll say is, if you want to read it, do take the time to read it all rather than finding something you dislike and flying off the handle.

I've already stated my distate for Wicca, but it's for personal reasons not really based on logic, more environmental pressures. Go make up your own mind!

[Sam Wiley]

One does not just "end up" or "decide to become" a Satanist. You are either born a Satanist or you are not. Not everyone who is a Satanist, calls themself a Satanist. Taking the name is simply a recognition of certain beliefs and personal philosophies that one has always had. The definition of what makes a person a Satanist, or rather the views and some of the practices that are shared by Satanists, are pretty much all defined in The Satanic Bible. If you have always felt that way, you are a Satanist. Not all Satanists believe in God or Satan, unless you take Satan to mean the forces of nature, which is how the Church of Satan means it.


The Church of Satan worships Satan, most clearly symbolized in the Roman God Lucifer, the bearer of light, the spirit of the air, and the personification of enlightenment. Satan is not visualized as an anthropomorphic being, rather he represents the forces of nature. To the Satanist, the self is the highest embodiment of human life and is sacred. The Church of Satan is essentially a human potential movement and members are encouraged to develop whatever capabilities they can by which they might excel. They are, however, cautioned to recognize their limitations -an important factor in this philosophy of rational self-interest. Satanists practice magick, the art of changing situations or events in accordance with one's will, which would, using normally accepted methods, be impossible.

-from the April 1978 US Army Chaplains Handbook, reprinted on the Church of Satan's official website

So we have a group of individuals who worship the forces of nature and are dedicated to the realization of their full potential, and who often employ methods beyond the norm to accomplish their goals.

But just because I'm a card-carrying Citizen of the Infernal Empire, don't take my word for it...

Ave Satanas! (http://www.churchofsatan.com)

[joedoe]

So to Satanists, is Satan considered the Lord of Evil, or is there a distinction between the Lord of Darkness and the Lord of Evil? When you talk about dark forces, are those forces considered to be evil, or just natural?

I am not trying to be offensive, I am just trying to educate myself.

[prana]

dang good questions :cool: I am curious too

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

"I wonder what people mean by they were hardcore Satanists "back then," or used to be "practicing" Satanists. You're either a Satanist or you're not. And if you are a Satanist you were born that way. If you're not now, you never were. "



i definatley hear where you are coming from when you say you are born a satanist or not.

im still a satanist at heart, but i choose not to call myself a satanist for the very reasons you mentioned. the church was actually started for potential profit and convenience (as well as to get the word out i'm sure) and the fact that it is hard to take such a prankster as lavey seriously. half the time it seemed like he formed the cos more for the kick he got out of really pi$$ing off the very people he wanted to get a rise out of. not saying i wouldn't have enjoyed it just as much, but it just seemed like the humor in what he did often overshadowed the core prinicples of the idea.

i haven't lost any respect for the man, or the organization, i just decided over time it wasn't an organization i wanted to be part of. (not that i have every been a card carrying member.) i guess i just think it would be a contridiction to call myself a "satanist" when i know that i'll never attach my name to the church. at this point in my life i like taking what's usefull from many religions and attaching myself to none of them. i guess that would make me a mixed martial artist of religion.

on the other hand i sometimes think if the shoe fits . ...

[Sam Wiley]

It's not necessary to join the Church in order to call yourself a Satanist. Like the Church says, you are or you aren't, and it doesn't matter if you openly call yourself that or not. I rarely even talk about the subject these days, and I rarely practice rituals, but I am what I am. Anyway, there are a lot of people out there who simply pick up The Satanic Bible and discover a name for what they are, and yet they never even contact the Church or think of becoming members. As much as the Church is an organization for non-joiners, there are still some who will never sign up, and that's cool. There are also a lot of people who are Satanists who don't even know that they are. We call them de facto Satanists. If the shoe fits, by all means wear it...but is it a style you like? Will it go with the rest of your attire? A label isn't necessary. The funny thing is that, in this case, a label just labels you as something that can't quite be categorized. There are as many types of Satanists as their are people. Some are very religious in their dedication, believing in an actual spirit called Satan (though this a fairly recent occurance), and there are some who don't necessarily believe in anything. And each Satanist has a different approach to the thing. For instance, as far as ritual structure and magic go, some stick to strict Christian rites and the Christian pantheon, while others focus more on Norse, Hindu, Buddhist, etc. Most simply use whatever is most conducive to the magical working they are striving for. And each Satanist has a set of skills or abilities they wish to develop to their fullest. Personally, I intend to develop my dim-mak skills to their fullest, and also strive to write and play the kind of music that I enjoy the most.

Personally, I do not believe in the distinction between good and evil. I don't think most Satanists believe in it. Everything is an interplay between positive and negative energies, both are necessary, and neither one is more seductive or more powerful than the other. And if both are necessary, then how can one be better than the other? We tend to not classify anything, including Satan, as evil. Of course, if, as the saying goes, "good is what you like; evil is what you don't like," then you might classify Satan as evil if you don't like him or what he stands for, or rather what the concept represents. But under that definition, no Satanist would say Satan was evil.

As for the "forces of darkness concept..." yes, Satan and everyone else in Hell might be considered "dark" insofar as they are not normally discussed in the open, their influence is not normally seen, and those who employ such forces tend to never discuss it when they do. On a more mundane level, most Satanists view the forces of darkness as the hidden forces of nature. So yes, they are considered to be natural.

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

"There are also a lot of people who are Satanists who don't even know that they are. "

man i used to preach the sh!t out of satanism when i first read the satanic bible and devils notebook. i was young and i guess i was trying to solidify my own beliefs by arguing them with others. later on, like yourself, i saw little point in doing so unless the subject presented itself.

the funny thing was how many christians i debated with who were infact satanists. man ... that really pi$$ed them off ... that was some funny sh!t.

[Sam Wiley]

Yeah, arguing with them never accomplishes anything. I have a friend, though, who was (still is, actually) a devout Christian, and he and I used to sit and debate for hours. He never once tried to convert me or change my mind like all the others. He was one of the few people I have ever met who had genuine compassion for all people. Everyone else would just bug me and bug me and neither of us would accomplish a thing in the process of arguing. But I feel my conversations with this guy were productive and enriching. The funny thing is that, he is the only person I have ever met who I feel embodied the message of love and compassion Christ preached. How's that for irony?

But yeah, it did tick people off when I'd say, "Man, that's almost a direct quote fromThe Satanic Bible !" Hell, sometimes I said it just to get a reaction, even if it wasn't true!:p

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

haha.

check out the avatar. i can send you the preshrunk image if you want.

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

i'm messing around with others already, but it was a baphomet.

[Kuen]

The britons, the picts, the gaels = all celts just different tribes. Others are the Hellvetti, Galatians, Scotti.

The blue peole were the Picts=Not celts but earlier inhabitants of what is now Scottland.

Wiccans claim to have celt connections but they don't. Any claims as such or that the celts practiced Wicca are misinformation.

For more info see: When is a Celt Not a Celt? (http://www.cyberwitch.com/wychwood/Library/whenIsACeltNotACelt.htm)

[joedoe]

So what is the Satanist's definition of Hell? Is it the same as the conventional definition i.e. a place of pain and suffering?

BTW thanks for your answers so far.

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

check out the link sam posted. lots of info there that will answer any questions you have. basically the only existing hell is the one you create for yourself in the here and now.

also here are the most consise and pertinent works the church of satan has produced imo.

9 satanic statements:

1. Satan represents indulgence instead of abstinence!

2. Satan represents vital existence instead of spiritual pipe dreams!

3. Satan represents undefiled wisdom instead of hypocritical self-deceit!

4. Satan represents kindness to those who deserve it instead of love wasted on ingrates!

5. Satan represents vengeance instead of turning the other cheek!

6. Satan represents responsibility to the responsible instead of concern for psychic vampires!

7. Satan represents man as just another animal, sometimes better, more often worse than those that walk on all-fours, who, because of his “divine spiritual and intellectual development,” has become the most vicious animal of all!

8. Satan represents all of the so-called sins, as they all lead to physical, mental, or emotional gratification!

9. Satan has been the best friend the Church has ever had, as He has kept it in business all these years!

11 rules of the earth:

1. Do not give opinions or advice unless you are asked.

2. Do not tell your troubles to others unless you are sure they want to hear them.

3. When in another’s lair, show him respect or else do not go there.

4. If a guest in your lair annoys you, treat him cruelly and without mercy.

5. Do not make sexual advances unless you are given the mating signal.

6. Do not take that which does not belong to you unless it is a burden to the other person and he cries out to be relieved.

7. Acknowledge the power of magic if you have employed it successfully to obtain your desires. If you deny the power of magic after having called upon it with success, you will lose all you have obtained.

8. Do not complain about anything to which you need not subject yourself.

9. Do not harm little children.

10. Do not kill non-human animals unless you are attacked or for your food.

11. When walking in open territory, bother no one. If someone bothers you, ask him to stop. If he does not stop, destroy him.

9 satanic sins:

1. Stupidity—The top of the list for Satanic Sins. The Cardinal Sin of Satanism. It’s too bad that stupidity isn’t painful. Ignorance is one thing, but our society thrives increasingly on stupidity. It depends on people going along with whatever they are told. The media promotes a cultivated stupidity as a posture that is not only acceptable but laudable. Satanists must learn to see through the tricks and cannot afford to be stupid.

2. Pretentiousness—Empty posturing can be most irritating and isn’t applying the cardinal rules of Lesser Magic. On equal footing with stupidity for what keeps the money in circulation these days. Everyone’s made to feel like a big shot, whether they can come up with the goods or not.

3. Solipsism—Can be very dangerous for Satanists. Projecting your reactions, responses and sensibilities onto someone who is probably far less attuned than you are. It is the mistake of expecting people to give you the same consideration, courtesy and respect that you naturally give them. They won’t. Instead, Satanists must strive to apply the dictum of “Do unto others as they do unto you.” It’s work for most of us and requires constant vigilance lest you slip into a comfortable illusion of everyone being like you. As has been said, certain utopias would be ideal in a nation of philosophers, but unfortunately (or perhaps fortunately, from a Machiavellian standpoint) we are far from that point.

4. Self-deceit—It’s in the “Nine Satanic Statements” but deserves to be repeated here. Another cardinal sin. We must not pay homage to any of the sacred cows presented to us, including the roles we are expected to play ourselves. The only time self-deceit should be entered into is when it’s fun, and with awareness. But then, it’s not self-deceit!

5. Herd Conformity—That’s obvious from a Satanic stance. It’s all right to conform to a person’s wishes, if it ultimately benefits you. But only fools follow along with the herd, letting an impersonal entity dictate to you. The key is to choose a master wisely instead of being enslaved by the whims of the many.

6. Lack of Perspective—Again, this one can lead to a lot of pain for a Satanist. You must never lose sight of who and what you are, and what a threat you can be, by your very existence. We are making history right now, every day. Always keep the wider historical and social picture in mind. That is an important key to both Lesser and Greater Magic. See the patterns and fit things together as you want the pieces to fall into place. Do not be swayed by herd constraints—know that you are working on another level entirely from the rest of the world.

7. Forgetfulness of Past Orthodoxies—Be aware that this is one of the keys to brainwashing people into accepting something new and different, when in reality it’s something that was once widely accepted but is now presented in a new package. We are expected to rave about the genius of the creator and forget the original. This makes for a disposable society.

8. Counterproductive Pride—That first word is important. Pride is great up to the point you begin to throw out the baby with the bathwater. The rule of Satanism is: if it works for you, great. When it stops working for you, when you’ve painted yourself into a corner and the only way out is to say, I’m sorry, I made a mistake, I wish we could compromise somehow, then do it.

9. Lack of Aesthetics—This is the physical application of the Balance Factor. Aesthetics is important in Lesser Magic and should be cultivated. It is obvious that no one can collect any money off classical standards of beauty and form most of the time so they are discouraged in a consumer society, but an eye for beauty, for balance, is an essential Satanic tool and must be applied for greatest magical effectiveness. It’s not what’s supposed to be pleasing—it’s what is. Aesthetics is a personal thing, reflective of one’s own nature, but there are universally pleasing and harmonious configurations that should not be denied.

pentagonal revisionism: a 5 point program:

In recent years, we’ve wasted far too much time explaining that Satanism has nothing to do with kidnapping, drug abuse, child molestation, animal or child sacrifice, or any number of other acts that idiots, hysterics or opportunists would like to credit us with. Satanism is a life-loving, rational philosophy that millions of people adhere to. Now we’re ready for something that goes quite a few steps beyond just explaining our principles. Every revisionist movement needs a set of goals/guidelines that are clear, concrete, and that will effect significant changes.

The following Five-Point Program reflects attitudes which allow others to decide whether they wish to align themselves with Satanism or not. Each is necessary for Satanic change to take place. When asked what we’re “doing,” here’s the answer:

1. Stratification—The point on which all the others ultimately rest. There can be no more myth of “equality” for all—it only translates to “mediocrity” and supports the weak at the expense of the strong. Water must be allowed to seek its own level without interference from apologists for incompetence. No one should be protected from the effects of his own stupidity.

2. Strict taxation of all churches—If churches were taxed for all their income and property, they’d crumble overnight of their own obsolescence, and the National Debt would be wiped out as quickly. The productive, the creative, the resourceful should be subsidized. So long as the useless and incompetent are getting paid, they should be heavily taxed.

3. No tolerance for religious beliefs secularized and incorporated into law and order issues—to re-establish “Lex Talionis” would require a complete overturning of the present in-justice system based on Judeo-Christian ideals, where the victim/defender has been made the criminal. Amnesty should be considered for anyone in prison because of his alleged “influence” upon the actual perpetrator of the crime. Everyone is influenced in what he or she does. Scapegoating has become a way of life, a means of survival for the unfit. As an extension of the Judeo-Christian cop-out of blaming the Devil for everything, criminals can gain leniency, even praise, by placing the blame on a convenient villain. Following the Satanic creed of “Responsibility to the responsible,” in a Satanic society, everyone must experience the consequences of his own actions—for good or ill.

4. Development and production of artificial human companions—The forbidden industry. An economic “godsend” which will allow everyone “power” over someone else. Polite, sophisticated, technologically feasible slavery. And the most profitable industry since T.V. and the computer.

5. The opportunity for anyone to live within a total environment of his or her choice, with mandatory adherence to the aesthetic and behavioral standards of same—Privately owned, operated and controlled environments as an alternative to ****genized and polyglot ones. The freedom to insularize oneself within a social milieu of personal well-being. An opportunity to feel, see, and hear that which is most aesthetically pleasing, without interference from those who would pollute or detract from that option.

This is the encapsulated version of the current thrust of Satanic advocacy. So when someone asks you, “Well, what do Satanists do?”, you will be qualified to tell him.


oddly enough all these can be found on the link sam posted under theory/practice and under basics.

[joedoe]

Thanks for your replies guys.

So to Satanists, Hell is still a place of suffering and pain, only that it is a place of your own creation and you do not have to die to reach it? So Satanists do not strive to go to Hell the same way Christians strive to go to Heaven?

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

i don't think you are seeing the forest for the trees. but such is to expected with the name.

satanists do not actually believe in satan as the opposite of god or as any personified being. satan was a symbol chosen by a man with a good sense of humor who really wanted to get his point accross and p!ss some people off.

satanists do not worship any god save themselves. the highest holliday of the satanist is their own birthday . .. the day their own god came into the world.

most satanists are atheists, some are agnostics. heven and hell are viewed as bullsh!t propaganda spewed forth by fear mongers for the sake of manipulating the masses more easily. symbolically heaven and hell can be viewed as the life you create for yourself through your own will and sense of responsibility. on the same note anything can be symbolic of something, so i wouldnt get too hung up on the heven/hell thing. in fact, if i remember right, they are rarely mentioned except when bashing christianity.

satanism is more of a philosophy that was already yours or never will be than a religion, and has little to do with "satan" save it's symbolic intent.

i believe there is also something in the faq about why he chose the name satanism if they did not worship the devil. i can't remember the exact name of the article but its a chapter out of the satanic bible.

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

as a side note the art of war and the book of 5 rings made the reccommended reading lists on the legion of loki grotto website.


i thought that was kinda neat.

[prana]

I get the impression that Satan, in this sense is a powerful being that although punishes souls in hell, is only manifestation of the rules of the earth, that is, if one needs to be punished, Satan appears as an source of pain and punishment. Otherwise, Satan is rather, a law of nature, a ruler of the other world and does not represent the 'evil-one' as seen by some other religions. In fact, he is like the upkeeper of the laws of nature, like "god"...


Hmmmm is this right ?

[wushu chik]

So, just out of curiosity, because this is on a Witches thread....are you calling Witches (Wiccans and such) satanists??

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

better not be.

sam will get mad.

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

prana ... not really . .. it's much simpler than that.

read the site or wait on sam as he can probably explain it better.

[Sam Wiley]

GDA,
WOW! Did you type ALL OF THAT?! Man, your hands must be sore!

Joedoe,
According to most truly Satanic literature, there is no such thing as Heaven or Hell. Books such as Might Is Right , which is liberally quoted in the first book of The Satanic Bible , declare in no uncertain terms that, "there is no Heaven of glory bright...no Hell where sinners roast." Other Satanic works go into detail as to why this is so. Basically, they state that the world is what you make of it, and can either be Heaven or Hell, depending on your point of view.

Technically, Hell is not a place name. The name is taken from a Norse goddess, Hel, who ruled over a sort of underworld, called Helheim, or Hel's Home. That's the definition that comes to my mind when I think of Hell.

So technically, to a Satanist, Hell would not generally be a place of pain or suffering. Heaven and Hell are states of mind, in my opinion. In Paradise Lost , Satan declares after being cast out, that Hell ain't so bad after all, builds a palace there, and decides to make it his base of operations, from which to launch his next campaign. His speech, in fact is one of the most stirring pieces of literature I have ever read, fueling the fires of rebellion in me every time I glace over it.


Is this the region, this the soil, the clime," said then the lost Archangel, "this the seat that we must change for Heaven? -this mournful gloom for that celestial light? Be it so, since He who now is sovereign can dispose and bid what shall be right: ****hest from Him is best whom reason hath equalled, force hath made supreme above his equals. Farewell, happy fields, where joy for ever dwells! Hail, horrors! hail infernal world! and thou, profoundest Hell, receive thy new possessor -one who brings a mind not to be changed by place or time. The mind is its own place, and in itself can make a Heaven of Hell, a Hell of Heaven. What matter where if I be still the same, and what I should be, all but less than He whom thunder hath made greater? Here at least we shall be free; th' Almighty hath not built here for His envy, will not drive us hence: here we may reign secure; and in my choice to reign is worth ambition, though in Hell. Better to reign in Hell than serve in Heaven! "

In other words, and to put it perfectly Satanically, "when life hands you lemons, make lemonade." The most Satanic figures in literature, and in history, too, had to struggle against great adversity to make themselves and their kind equal with those in power. Ghandi, Martin Luther King, Jr., Milton's Satan, etc, are all examples of this. Men among men, and to be admired. When they were handed lemons, they said, "thank you. May I have some more, please?" and kept trudging through the mire toward their goal. Both Denzel Washington's and Matthew Broderick's characters in the movie Glory were this kind of character, "head bloody, but unbowed," to quote a famous poem, in Washington's case.

[joedoe]

Thanks GDA & Sam. I know it must be frustrating for you trying to explain this to me, and I do understand what you are saying. I guess I am just trying to understand a few details so I can get it straight in my mind.

I guess the term Satanist really is a little misleading in this case because the general connotation is that Satan represents evil. In reality, the Church of Satan seems to represent, as you said, athiests and agnostics (and maybe a few pagans thrown in for good measure :) ).

Anyway, I will stop badgering you guys for information now. Again, thanks for bearing with me.

[Sam Wiley]

Okay, this filter is going a little too far. The word far thest is not profanity, and worse yet, the filter is picking what it perceives to be a profane word out the the middle of a word. Can someone fix that?

Thanx.

[joedoe]

Hahahaha. The filter blocks f@rt. Does it block poo as well? :D

No it doesn't! :D :D :D

[David Jamieson]

mmmmmmm...Milton.

Thanks Sam, I'm reading that again.

peace

[wushu chik]

Nevermind!

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

man, if wushuchick is with a guy im sure he's hearing all about it now.

[Serpent]

I have a question!

If Satanism is as you've described it here, then what is that with the mind control f uckwits that orgy and child molest and kill and all that under the guise of Satanic ritual. What would you guys call that?

[Sam Wiley]

Psychotic.

[Serpent]

OK, I'll give you that.

But seriously, don't those guys refer to themselves as Satanic? Doesn't that compromise any claims Church of Satan might have to being legit in any way?

[Leonidas]

I guess you would call them True-Satanist. Since he came to be known from Christianity, he really is whatever Christians say he is. He's the embodiment of evil, and evil includes orgies, child molesting and killing so thats what they seek to do. They also worship him as the enemy of God and not a force of nature or something created in the mind. They dont do things to **** people off but to hurt them in every way, body and soul. I guess you wouldn't include GDA and whoever else he was talking about but thats what REAL Satanist are, the total opposites of Christians trying to do everything possible to break every law in the Bible that they can. You can't include Satan without including religion, thats where the whole idea came from. You can't take the Yang of something and dismiss the Yin so to speak. Satan is a part of the whole point of the Christian religion. (Not the most important part but still there) The Satanist GDA is talking about is basically some guy who took Satan as a symbol to **** Christians off and trashed the rest and then said where all -really- Atheist. Anyway thats what i know as Satanism. Charles Manson and all his Serial Killer buddies are real Satanist, not some High School pranksters trying to **** off their parents. Not many people are that crazy or willing to take it that far. Besides that can we really get any further off topic from MARTIAL ARTS than Satanism. Couldn't be more off topic if we tried. Surprised it wasn't shut down with all the kiddies surfin'.............Freedom of Religion Right???

[Sam Wiley]

No, considering that not only do they have severe mental illnesses, but they are not affiliated with the Church of Satan in any way.

Does it compromise the legitimacy of the Catholic church when a priest is caught molesting a little boy? No. But consider this: when a priest is caught molesting a little boy, he is a reporesentative of the institution.

Personally, I have met more Christians who have been brainwashed than any other group. I have NEVER met a Satanist who has been brainwashed. I have known Christians who committed crimes that make me shiver when I think about them. But every Satanist I have ever known has a strict code they follow, and I have never known a Satanist ho was a criminal.

What do investigators do when they find a Holy Bible among the possessions of a murderer, knowing that the God portrayed in the Old Testament, one of the foundational texts of Christianity (whether anyone wants to admit it or not) since Christianity is founded solidly on Judaism, favored genocide, mass murder, and other grisly crimes? They do nothing, overlooking the fact that there in the culprit's book collection is a veritable cornucopia of ideas for heinous crimes, from driving stakes through people's heads to burning entire cities to the ground, even to feeding little children to bears.

What do investigators do when they find a copy of The Satanic Bible in among the belongings of the culprit? They panic, and all sorts of lies and dark fantasies, right out of their own subconcious, begin to emerge. Does it matter that at the top of page 89 of The Satanic Bible , their is a strict dictum stating that under no circumstances would a Satanist ever sacrifice any animal or child, since children and animals are considered sacred to the Satanist? Apparently not. Times are changing, though, and there are now people who realize that just because someone claims it's true doesn't always make it true, and they know that real Satanists would never do the things of which they have been accused.

The stories you refer to were created as black propaganda against the Satanic movement by Christians. The people who began to commit these twisted crimes were directly influenced by Christians. If you want an answer as to why anyone would even think of doing these things, you need to ask the people who thought them up in the first place...Christians.

[Braden]

To be fair, some Christian movements have been very anti-Old Testament. Of course, they've all been soundly quashed. *quash*

http://www.kheper.auz.com/topics/Gnosticism/Gnosticism_as_anti-religion.htm

[Sam Wiley]

The highly informative links I included in previous posts can be followed to find answers to many of the questions asked here, and debunk many of the lies told against Satanists, such as the ones about how Satanists are just trying to reverse Christian religion, etc, etc, ad nauseum. Apparently, there are some here who have not read the information contained therein, nor have they read the sources I have quoted from or mentioned, and yet they insist on perpetuating these lies.

The distinction between "true" Satanists, "traditional" Satanists, etc, is a fallacy also perpetrated by those who spread lies about what real Satanism is. They spread this lie when they are caught in a lie, to try and save their rear from potential lawsuits and other ways they can lose face. People, you can't straddle the fence forever. If you try to, you're going to rack yourself pretty hard. Either make up your mind and take a definitive stance, or get off the fence. Hell, the KKK uses the excuse that there are a few "good ones" so they can have some sort of normal relations with the rest of the world, but we all know they would just as soon hang the "good ones" as the "bad ones." The same attitude is present in those who declare, when caught in a lie about what Satanists are and do, that they are talking about the "other" kind.

Would you ask Hitler about Passover? Would you ask the Grand Wizard of the KKK about Kwanzaa (sp?)? Of course not. So why would you ask a Christian about Satanism? Logic is an important tool, and it's perfectly okay (and perfectly Satanic) to use it.

Braden,
I respect your input very much, and you always contribute something of value, as you have here. I just do not believe in being fair.:D

[Leonidas]

So why bother calling yourselves Satanist when you obviously have nothing to do when him. No matter how much you try to convince people the name alone is going to make you look "evil". What i was trying to get at was that Satan is a part of religion like it or not. So people are not going to even give Satanist the time of day when someone mentions it . Christians are not brainwashed, It's just people who are flying the Church banner and are not really Christians who commit crimes and give others a bad image, just like the name Satanist give those who choose that religion a bad rep. Most of the people who call themselves Christians are not. Its just a ritual to them. I'm sorry i stereotyped you since i dont like it when people do that to me. It's sorta like when the Extremist bombed NY and everyone went on a crusade to kill all Muslims. Innocent people get misunderstood.

[rubthebuddha]

i'd chalk it up to concept of who or what satan is. typical christian belief is that satan is the antithesis of all they are told is right and holy in this world. another problem with this is that most argue that satan is a product of god, since god created everything. satan was banished for being a not-so-swell fellow by that same god. this precludes the existence of god if you believe in the existence of satan.

however, if your concept of who or what satan is is defined different from the judeo-christian standard, then this whole argument falls apart.

in addition, it's not uncommon for christians (two words: southern baptist) to say that anything not corresponding with their church beliefs is satanic. i've been called a satanist for doing kung fu. conveniently, i work hard making the lives of college students better, teach kung fu to wonderful students, work in the community, support girl scouts (cookies, baybee!), never smoked, rarely drink and i love my mom lotsa, but i get called a evil by some wife-beating, five-martini-lunch-drinking pig****er who gets caught with a ***** straddling his jimmy in a motel 6 with a few lines of cocaine up his nose. tell me how that works.

ok, that's way OT, but too bad. i needed to get that out.

[Leonidas]

Greeaat, I started a thread about Satan, ugh. Can't we just say were both misinformed, count our losses and move on. No sense in trying to explain the finer points of our uh.........faiths when no one is going to change their minds. I guess i should say thank you? for explaining Satanism to everyone, it was interesting to say the least.

[Sam Wiley]

Leonidas,
I understand where you're coming from, then. To briefly answer your questions, we recognize that man needs certain facets of religion. To give Satanism a simple philosophical name, would not be true to the thing. I'm afraid that to go into detail as to the reason would take more time and space than I have here. You can find the answers to your questions specifically in The Satanic Bible , and some of them can be answered by reading information on the sites to whom I placed links previously. Somewhere on the internet, there is supposed to be a copy of TSB done on Windows Notepad. So you may not even have to buy a copy to read it.

On the subject of the Muslims and the events of September 11th...I'm sorry, I feel vastly different than many. If I were president, Afghanistan would have been engulfed in nuclear Hellfire (no pun intended, I assure you) the moment they refused to give bin Laden to us. I would't have bothered giving them more and more time to try and screw us out of VENGEFUL JUSTICE. And I know this is not the most popular opinion, but if anyone, Muslims included, had stood up and said one word against this most PROPER and RIGHT action, I would have had them tried, convicted, and possibly executed as traitors in a time of war. Citizens in this country every day stand up, salute Old Glory, and recite an oath, "I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the Republic for which it stands, one nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all." People who immigrate here must learn it and recite it to become citizens, swearing an oath to the USA. Even Muslims. And it states that there is to be liberty andjustice for all! If they take that oath and then betray it, they are guilty of treason, especially in a time of war. My heart goes out, most sincerely, to those who lost loved ones, and I cried for blood with them when they raised their voices for it.

"Hate for hate and ruth for ruth,
Eye for eye and tooth for tooth,
Scorn for scorn and smile for smile,
Love for love and guile for guile,
War for war and woe for woe,
Blood for blood and blow for blow!"
- from Might Is Right, by Ragnar Redbeard

For an act so heinous and heart-shatteringly cold, I feel that severe and immediate retribution was needed. Hopefully, the swift sword of Justice will cleave his head from his body and the families of the victims will be priviliged to play soccer/football with it. I'd love to get in one kick myself.

[Leonidas]

Uh ok. I don't exactly feel the same, but i was told that when you kill someone with mailce you are supposed to take your own life which is not going to happen so some people have to be coached....... It really all depends on if you believe in the death penalty. Still doesn't justify killing thousands of Afghani's. Whats if their death tole surpasses 4,000. Don't they have the right to kill some Americans?

[Leonidas]

Oh yea, i'll pass on reading the Satanic Bible. It wouldn't accomplish much save for making feel weird. I'd still have the same views. I have most of the bible figured out. No sense in confusing myself more :D

[Sam Wiley]

The Afghanis partied in the streets when the World Trade Center was destroyed, celebrating the act of mass murder. And when called upon to give up the mastermind behind the plot, they hid him and kept him safe. Does that sound like something "innocent" people would do? I really don't give a rat's a$$ if they have the right to kill Americans once there country was nuked, because there wouldn't be enough of them left to try it if I were president. What bin Laden and his minions did and what the Afghani people did to help him, perfectly justifies killing every single one of them.

But of course, I'm not in charge.

And what religion would that be in, that says if you kill someone out of malice you must commit suicide? That's certainly NOT a Christian belief, since suicide for any reason would condemn you to Hell.

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

"Since he came to be known from Christianity, he really is whatever Christians say he is."

that's not entirely true. the christian satan was based on many other "devlis" of religions before. the only one i can think of off the top of my head would be the most obvious - pan. if i remember right pan was a fun loving god of fertility. he'd play his flute and try to be a player, but the nyphms never gave his ugly a$$ the time of day.

i would say that there is an anti-christian element to the name, but it does dig it's roots a little deeper than its antagonism. like pan the satanist is here to have a good time and do what he likes.

[Braden]

Although, to play 'devil's advocate', the Satan which is the namesake for LeVey's Satanism is quite clearly and explicitly the Christian Satan, rather than any other incarnation - and from his writings I think you can infer without being too presumptuous that it IS intended to mock Christians (in many senses of the word 'mock').

Although, to play devil's advocate again, it's certainly a legitimate approach by anyone's standard to take a figure such as Satan and use him as philosophical icon. Doing that kind of thing is a mainstay of the way we communicate, we just don't tend to notice it when the symbolism in question is such mundane things as bulls, fiddles, and whistles. So to criticism LeVey's usage would be unfounded.

[Crimson Phoenix]

Could it be....SSSSAAAAAATTTTAAANNNNN???
Hit it Charlie!!

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

quote from a member. ..

"Inherently, the Satanic archetype is far more diverse than the limited Christian interpretation. Satanism, to one degree or another, embraces numerous cultural and religious versions such as those of ancient Rome and ancient Greece, Egyptian, Zoroasterism, Asatru, Aztec, Hindu and a multitude of others. We also find the Satanic persona emanating from some or all of the literary works of Milton, Nietzsche, Mencken, Maugham, Twain, Rand, Jung, and many more. To say that Satanism is inverse Christianity is both ignorant and shortsighted."

not that i completely disagree with you braden.

[Braden]

That was part of my point though.

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

mine too.

[joedoe]

I may be wrong, but I think the name Satan was actually derived from the Zoarastrian icon of evil Shaitan. Whether they borrowed the concept from elsewhere, I don't know.

[Serpent]

But you Satanist dudes are still flogging the sh!t out a dead horse by calling yourself Church of Satan. The total perception of the general public these days is Satanism = Evil, killing, peadophilia, etc. So why insist on calling yourselves that?

And to suggest that the public perception is one of only black propoganda, think again. I'm not going into details, but Satanism in the commonly held public perception of the term does exist. Brainwashing, killings, rape, torture, human sacrifice - all these things go on within f ucked up, twisted groups hiding in the shadows of society, and many of those groups will call themselves Satanic, whether you Church of Satan guys like it or not.

For example, imagine if I started a Mission for the charity towards victims of war and I set up a mandate to descibe how to help victims of terrorism. Then I decided to call that Mission the Osama Bin Laden Mission For Victims of Terrorism. No matter how much I tried to convince people that I had an uncle called Osama Bin Laden that was a really benevolent dude, the general perception would be one of horror, based in quite reasonable fact.

So why insist on being The Church Of Satan?

Or is it all part of your plan to sow the seeds of chaos and have a laugh? If so, stop defending it so vehemently and start laughing! ;)

[Sam Wiley]

My own perception of Christians nowadays is that they are selfish, callous, unthinking, blind, psychotic child molestors...but I don't see any Christians racing to find a new name for themselves so I don't think of them like that.

Why should Satanists, who were not originally viewed like that race to find a new name? Did the Jews race to find a new name for themselves when Julius Streicher began his campaign of black propaganda against them? Did the Knights Templar race to find a new name when the King of France betrayed them and the Pope began his campaign of black propaganda against them?

I think you have missed the point. The groups who commit acts such as those you mention were directly influenced by the black propaganda I'm talking about, which was invented by Christians. That they believe what they are doing is "satanic" is due to the direct influence of lies invented by Christians. The fact is that I don't like them doing those things, nor do I like them using the name. But the only way they are going to stop is if people realize that these sick fantasies were not the invention of Satanic minds, are not indicative of Satanic practices, and are not carried out by Satanists. Thus, this info here.

Your example is irrelevant and ill-chosen, and does not address the issue. The name Satanism, and the title of the Church of Satan, were chosen long before the public mind was filled with such rubbish. In your example, the name is chosen after the public mind has decided bin Laden is evil. In the example you mention, the choice of name is not indicative of the focus or philosophical bent of the group; it is simply ill-chosen. Better to start a charity called the International Fund for All Victims of Terrorism, or something like that. Better yet, produce something of quality and value that kind-hearted people might purchase with the assurance that all the proceeds go to the victims of the tragedy, so that they have something to show for being kind-hearted and giving, the victims of the tragedy benefit, and you have given of yourself personally.

[Leonidas]

The whole, your going to hell if you kill yourself is really a Catholic view and under normal circumstances i guess it could be true, but murdering someone is not normal circumstances. I suppose thats why Catholics and Christians are separated. They are considered pagans to some, but i wont speculate on that.

You just stereotyped practically my whole family and your getting p*ssed cuz i stated what most people think of Satanist. There have been many cases of people calling themsleves Satanist who killed, raped and looted. Just like there are many "Christians" who did the same thing. You can't copyright a name or religion. It's gonna be used by anyone who chooses to. So you can't judge everyone because of "bad apples". Like i said before. everyone is not who they claim to be, and you never know, maybe those Satanist who committed those crimes were here, before you decided to use the name.

[Sam Wiley]

First of all, murder is strictly prohibited, (Exodus 20:13, "Thou shalt not murder"). Suicide is the murder of the self. The Sixth Commandment does not specify that only murder of others is forbidden, and therefore includes the murder of the self. Second, according to the Bible, the death penalty was created by God (Genesis 9:6, "...and any man who murders shall be killed; for to kill a man is to kill one made like God"). While it may be possible to be forgiven for that crime in an afterlife (since you obviously can't ask for forgiveness in this life since you're not alive any more), it is still prohibited in no uncertain terms in the Bible.

If you pay close attention to what GDA posted, you will find that the 9th Satanic Rule is, "Do not harm little children." The 10th Satanic Rule is, "Do not kill non-human animals unless you are attacked or for your food." Therefore, both child and animal sacrifices are prohibited, and the practice of such things is most definitely NOT Satanic. The 5th Satanic Rule is, "Do not make sexual advances unless you are given the mating signal." Rape is, therefore, prohibited, and the commision of rape is most definitely NOT Satanic. The 6th Satanic Rule is, "Do not take that which does not belong to you unless it is a burden to the other person and he cries out to be relieved." Theft of all kinds is therefore prohibited, and the commision of theft is therefore most definitely NOT Satanic.

The fact is that those writings have been available since the beginning to anyone who wanted to read them. Some did, and know the truth. Many did not, and still believe a lie. Now, who is truly brainwashed: the people who take it upon themselves to discover the truth, or those who blindly accept what they are told?

The Holy Bible says the same things, in different words, at least about rape, child sacrifice and theft. And people everywhere recognize that when one of God's laws are broken, the act is not Christian and is not indicative of the proclivities of the rest of the Christians worldwide. So why is it that when one of these Satanic Rules are broken people think that the crime is, indeed, indicative of the proclivities of Satanists worldwide, especially when the criminals are not associated or affiliated with any known Satanic organization? The reason is because of the lies spread by Christians as to what a Satanist is and does.

Lying...bearing false witness.... Let's see what the Bible says about that. Exodus 20:16, in it's many possible translations, quite clearly delivers the word of God when it comes to lying. "Thou shalt not bear false witness." Thou shalt not lie." "Thou shalt not give false testimony." Proverbs 12:13 states that, "The wicked is snared by the transgression of his lips: but the just shall come out of trouble." In other words, lying get you into trouble, and the truth needs no defense. Proverbs 12:19 states, "The lip of truth shall be established forever: but a lying tongue is but for a moment." In other words, the truth is forever, and a lie is soon found out. Proverbs...Oh Hell, read that whole chapter of Proverbs, it's full of a bunch of old sayings about how lying is wrong and only leads to trouble, and how telling the truth is righteous. It also states that the righteous man hates a lie. The point is that lying is supposed to be un-Christian, and a sin. And yet when asked what a Satanist is and does, Christians lie their pointy little heads off. It doesn't matter that they don't know the truth. The point is that telling someone one thing when the opposite is the truth, is a lie. If they don't know, they should say they don't know.

People who committed those crimes before the Satanic movement got underway were known for what they really were: criminally insane. They did not try to justify what they were doing with the "devil worship" excuse. That only came along after the Church of Satan. People were so put off by its presence, rumors spread, and soon the lies started. Pretty soon we saw people on talkshows claiming to have been abused by organized satanic cults as children when the truth is that there were none during the period they described. But nobody thought to confront them on that because the subject was good ratings.

[Sam Wiley]

Oh, and for the record, I'm not ticked. I just get bored sometimes.

Now, would anyone care to know why I mentioned LaVey's writings on Lycanthropy?:D

[brucelee2]

I'd be interested to hear about the lycanthropy, Sam.

[joedoe]

Yes, me! Me!

I love learning about different belief systems. Keep it coming :)

[Leonidas]

Yea, i'm tired of debating this too.

[Serpent]

I like your point of view, Sam. Good point, well made!

You must be p!ssed at the public perception of Satanism though, huh! ;-)

Did you know that lycanthropy was originally referring solely to witches turning themselves into wolves? Go on, Sam - take it from there!

[joedoe]

It is funny - when I first read stuff on the COS website and heard what you guys had to say, part of me recoiled from it. Put that down to my Catholic upbringing.

After thinking about it, what you have to say makes sense. Not that I am about to declare myself a Satanist, but I can see where you are coming from and that the general perception of what a Satanist is is not what you guys stand for.

So I guess I have learned something more about myself through this - that I was not quite as objective about the beliefs of others as I thought. My inner reaction was still based on the conditioning of my upbringing. Thanks for pointing that out to me.

[Serpent]

Wow! Written proof that KFO raised someone's spiritual awareness! I might have to leave here now - I can't start to take this place seriously, for god's sake! :)
:D

[rubthebuddha]

not sure that forum-posted prose from an anonymous poster constitutes proof but i guess i'll take it. consider my knowledge of satanism rerouted and a bit less subjective. thanks, sam!

now david has a question: every belief system in human history has one fault -- they're human beliefs, so individual concepts and rules are never interpreted the same, even by the most devout within a faith. some people believe ALL killing is wrong, some believe killing to save unborn fetuses is okay but all other killing is wrong, some believe(d) that killing in order to claim regarded holy land is okay but all other killing is wrong, some believe that most killing is bad but if someone ever breaks into my house or ever harmed my daughter ... (hypothetical -- i'm 24 with NO kids) -- you get the idea.

now how does this human habit apply to satanism? is there a reasonable number of branches or offshoots (heck, even orthodox (catholic and otherwise) mainland europe considered protestant britain a heathen offshoot for a while. are there conflicts within the church, same as dopey christians?

not trying to dig for anything in particular other than what my curiosity has piqued right now.

also, thanks for sharing your insight. i doubt i'm the only person who thinks a bit differently on the subject.

[PhoenixPangaryk]

Someone decided to start a thread about martial arts for witches. I made a few comments some of may want to read in another thread I started.

Phoenix Pangaryk

PS. LT, thanks for the kind words - few of them found on this thread.