View Full Version : Is Cholayfut the best style for practical fighting??

josh nyce
10-23-2000, 06:13 AM
Well, it has been my experience that is is. I am an assistant instructor at a Choylayfut kung fu school in ft. Lauderdale, Fl., and out of all my years there, and out of all the countless national and international tournaments I have been to with my school, our style has always dominated. And I'm not necessarily saying just our school, but all Choylayfut schools with reputable teachers. Wing Chung, Wah Lum, and especially Japanese styles have been unsuccesful. I'm not saying anything negative about them, they all have there good points, but when it comes to sparring they can't contend to the fast, powerful long range technique's of this style.

10-23-2000, 06:22 AM
You haven't faced any 8 Step Praying Mantis fighters yet! I know our statements both sound egomaniacal, but you're kinda broad because you assume that no other style will do well. Try and mix things up a little!

10-23-2000, 06:34 AM
Definately no match for evil Tai Chi

Evil TaiChi (http://mindgazer.org/qigong/qijoke.htm)

10-23-2000, 06:35 AM
In a recent tournament my Longfist Praying Mantis school competed in an inter-style tournament. Combatants represented our school, another praying mantis school (not longfist like ours), a few Kenpo groups, a few shotokan groups, and numerous TKD schools. Needless to say, the TKD schools did not fare very well....in fact i dont think a single one placed...especially when it came to sparring. The tournament (which was actually held by a TKD organization) was "dominated" by the kara-te, kenpo and kungfu schools.....and this wasnt even us at our best. This, like so many tournaments, put restrictions on excessive force and "illegal" actions suchas joint locks....of which we all know is a large part of kungfu styles. My biased opinion would be that eventually a kungfu man would win out against others, regardless of the style, given enough training. You may be dominating simply because youre students are better trained and more prepared for the contest than those of other schools....and not necesarily because of overwhelmingly better techniques. The martial art is just a group of movements. It is the artist who brings it to life...and it is they who are responsible for victory or defeat.

Just my two cents,

LongfistMantis /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Shaolin Master
10-23-2000, 06:43 AM
Tournaments ...hahaha

1. There is no best style/system
2. There is no adequate method of determining what is best for such a classification if existent.
3. It depends (in life not tournament) on the individual practitioner not the style.

I could go on but it seems a futile waste of time.


10-23-2000, 07:29 AM
shaolinmaster is correct.
When our late si-gung Leung Cheung was alive, Yau Kung Mun won pretty much all the contact sports they entered. they were ruthless.

when some of the students of LC became sifus and entered their own students they were defeated. there is a sifu under LC whose students did well in the fighting.

it goes to prove that it is the teacher and the individuals that portray the system. whether you win or lose doesn't mean that your system is best. you could have a student learning Tung Chi Kuen (our first form) and he could win a tournament but a higher level student lose.

my sifu calls it mindset, you need to be focused on the fight because even the most basic movement can be used to win a fight. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

10-23-2000, 08:57 AM
I personally believe that all styles are good. I am a big fan of Choy Lay Fut, I have seen some very good players of this style and they really impress me. They have a good reputation and is a style worth learning. But you should not restrict your mind to "this style is the best." Every style has something to offer, and offer insight into what you may be missing in your style. I am not saying that you should learn every style there is known to man, but to look at the strenghth and weakness of other styles to help you strengthen your style. Also to base your decision from tournaments is okay, but remember, there is a big difference between tournaments and actual combat.

There is one master of the Yin style Bagua, He Jian Bao, a very ruthless fighter. He is very well-known in Mainland China and has came to the states on several occasions. Although he has defeated many fighters, he always tells his students that just because he is an expert fighter doesn't necessarily mean that Yin Bagua is the best. It is the amount of time and work he has put into his training is what helps him fight well, not the style. All styles are good, and all styles have something to offer.

You must eat bitter before you can taste sweet.

Rolling Elbow
10-23-2000, 02:28 PM
First of all,

I love choy lay fut, some of the long fist/range principle of striking i really enjoy and try to incorporate in my taijutsu, however, wing chun has the hands and mantis and crane are tremendous too, hell allot of styles are great!

Sparring is great, but come on, the padding protects as much as it hurts..it is not an accurate enough basis from which to make a lcaim as you did..getting tapped in teh head by a glove will not knock you out right? Besides, take on a taijtsu practitioner with no pads on and let him work your nerves and bones with limb destruction when you try the long range techniques..you'll find out why that type of fighting is not always the best strategy..spar a thai fighter with no padding and let him get in the clinch..there are thousands of examples to counter this. CLF is definitely one of the best out there..there is no best though, there cannot be, good movement at all levels is good movement

Michael Panzerotti
Taijutsu Nobody from the Great White North..

Black Jack
10-23-2000, 03:58 PM
Its kinda funny how you say your style is the best for practical fighting and yet you go on about tournament fighting.

Let me just say that practical and tournament do not go hand in hand.

People should not look at what style they think is the best, they should look at the training far above any generic system.


10-23-2000, 05:31 PM
Choy Li Fut is one of the best systems out there. Its not "the" best, but its up there with other complete systems. I once asked Master Sun if there were any complete systems left besides 8 Step. He said with regret, "not many" I asked him if he knew of any. He said there there are a few inside china and that he heard of a Generation Grandmaster of CLF in Australia and if he exists, then CLF is also one of the last complete systems. 8Stepstudent: Their techniques are gonna be the same as ours and the styles won't look that much different until the very advanced levels, only the strategy and methods will differ. Its all angles and circles so there is only one karate.

8Step Sifu

no 1
10-23-2000, 06:16 PM
your talkin about sparring in tournaments and you think your style is best for practical fighting?! gimme a break man.
go mess with a good hsing yi or pa kua practitioner and get your ass handed to you.

Black Jack
10-23-2000, 06:35 PM
8StepSifu there are a number of complete systems inside and outside of China. I dont want to get into the type of disccussion you had to handle on the Northern Mantis post but you should be carefull when you refer your system to others as if you think you have one of the only "real" deals and this should be doubled when you consider all of the questions one can drum up about the 8 Step Praying Mantis organization.


10-23-2000, 06:58 PM
Question all you want. During my training I was always curious as to who else trains the way we do. I had never seen any evidence of people training this way. When I asked Master Sun, he said that Choy Li Fut was one of the last complete systems. A system doesn't have to be complete to be good. Master Sun has kung fu master buddies in San Fran and one of them is a Wing Chun master. He also told me that Dr. Yang Jwang Ming is good and legit. I was answering to Choy Li Fut's quality and stated that based on what I know and have heard, its a great system

8Step Sifu

10-23-2000, 07:13 PM
"He said there there are a few inside china and that he heard of a Generation Grandmaster of CLF in Australia and if he exists, then CLF is also one of the last complete systems."

Yes, Chen Yong Fa exists. I've seen him in person and been taught by him in a seminar and I must say he's not a fraud.


Black Jack
10-23-2000, 07:18 PM
All I am saying is that the buck does not stop with what your teacher states. To compare the 8 Step organization or the present day Cho Lee Fut groups with a "real deal" closed door group such as Grandmaster Gyi's Bando is absurd and it shows that your Grandmaster does not know everything under the sun no matter how much you wish that were true.

Its sometimes sounds like you can not see the forest past the trees.


10-23-2000, 09:13 PM
I have read a few stories where Wing chunguys beat choy Li Fut guys. Bruce Lee used wing chun to beat a Choy Li fut guy. However, I really like both styles. Peace.

10-23-2000, 09:28 PM
I don't think Choy Li Fut is a very good style at all, at least from what I've seen of it.
I visited a Choy Li Fut guy here in Tulsa to do a Wing Chun demonstration at his school, and I was shocked at how ineffective it was in close-range.
The instructor didn't understand the concept of chi sa, he thinks that every attack should have a set defensive move, and he wanted to "prove" to me that the concept of being able to feel what your opponent is doing and thus respond (Wing Chun Chi Sau) wouldn't work.
So he did some attacks on me, and I responded everytime with a simple Wing Chun movement that got inside and hit him in a vital spot.
The sad thing is this guy has been doing Choy Lit Fut for aroun 15 years longer than I have been doing Wing Chun and he is a well respected name in this area. He was also doing really lame crap that would cause him to get his arse handed to him on the street. He would try stuff like dropping low and spinning around to do a strike to the groing. That was my favorite....I simply lifted a knee to block and stepped in to do a chain punch right on his face!

ps: My SiGong ran with the gangs in Hong Kong in the 50's before he migrated to America, and he said that his gang that used Wing Chun always creamed the Choy Li Fut and Hun Gar gangs. When they fought they only used Kung Fu and would sometimes use traditional Kung Fu weapons.
Francis Fong is one of the few people alive who has actually used the Wing Chun Butterfly swords on someone.

10-23-2000, 09:57 PM
If I like a style then that is the style I'm going to learn. And none of your jive talkin is going to change that.

10-23-2000, 10:08 PM

10-23-2000, 10:24 PM
8StepSifu I wasn't trying to knock the credibility of Choy Li Fut, because I know it's another good fighting system too. Like I said before the statment was egomaniacal, but thanks for the extra info though.

Rolling Elbow
10-23-2000, 10:52 PM

My instructor has taken wing chun and had no problrems using his taijutsu to defend and hit high level practitioners in wing chun..he likes cho lay fut and doesn't think much of Hung- ar lol...hey martial arts are full of stories like this. What is important is that your instructors do not just know fancy techniques (like the drop spin story mentioned above), if they can teach you reasonable skills i think a realistic and dedicated student will know whether or not the style is good for him. I applaud all of you for sticking with your style and also those of you who remind some of us not to brag or get set into thinking that our style is the best..remember..your style is best because at this point in your life, it is best fOR YOU /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Michael Panzerotti
Taijutsu Nobody from the Great White North..

10-23-2000, 11:01 PM
Choy Li Fut is extremely easy for the beginner to learn to fight with a reasonable amount of proficiency. The forms teach full arm swinging cup choy,Sow choy,jong choy, and a piercing chop choy that is simple to learn and anyone with enough cajones can flail away with it. They teach to use these strikes in fluid juggernaut patterns across the floor like figure 8s,slamming into your attacker,smashing through their bridges. The wing chun guy who said he fought 15 yr man of clf found a guy who didn't know his clf. Okay, that being said, after the early stages, Choy Li Fut gets extremely redundant. Chan Heung created a handfull of forms and the system grew to over 100 forms, all looking like the next, save for a few variations. My sifu taught Choy Li Fut as well as Hung Kuen (he always maintained that Choy Li Fut WAS a Hung Kuen system) but he like Doc Fai Wong said that to understand CLF all you needed was the 5 core sets, to pass the art on, you should learn the rest. CLF doesn't really get into the higher levels, but that's not what it was intended for, at least not in the beginning. CLF was developed to be spread amongst the people to develop militia groups to overthrow the Ching Dyanasty and restore the Ming to power. Its few sets could be easily absorbed and were developed for multiple opponents.It was also developed for farmers,woodsmen, blacksmiths, and the like, and the weapon sets reflect this. Choy Li Fut is a great foundation system to teach fighting FAST, but if you want to go into the higher levels, Wing Chun, Bak Mei, Hung Kuen,Bot Gwa,Tai Ge Kuen,Ying Yi Kuen,etc,were developed for tht. BTW CLF today includes higher sets, which were added later to the system, such as Joi Bot Sein, Fut Jeong, etc. We use Ng Lun Ma, and Ng Lun Choy,Siu Moi Fa Kuen, Ping Kuen, Sup Ji Kuen, and Sup Ji Kau Da, and many drills, but we don't get carried away with it, after all, we are a Hung Gar Mo Gwoon.

10-24-2000, 12:53 AM
I am a Choy Lee Fut stylist for almost 8 years. I agree it is an awesome system. But previous to that, I had studied N. Praying Mantis, and before that, karate and judo. All systems have their strengths and weaknesses, and there can be no superior systems, only superior individuals within each system. And even then, it depends on any given situation.

For example: Fighter A uses "X" style. Fighter B uses "Y" style. Fighter C uses "Z" style. Fighter A beats Fighter B. Then, Fighter B defeats Fighter C. In fact, beats him twice. But...Fighter C knocks out Fighter A very easily.

It's not only the system, but it's more how an individual uses that system. And certain individuals give certain other individuals a lot of trouble, and some other opponents are easy.

I have seen incredibly good CLF stylists and schools. I have also seen very crappy-level CLF schools, too. They cannot even be compared; therefore, to say either all CLF is the best, or all CLF is crap are both misinformed statements.

10-24-2000, 02:16 AM
I am very aware of your school, and actually it was Wah Lum that brought Lee Kwoon Hung over from Hong Kong. We scouted out many locations (Wah Lum of Miami)and finally settled on the location that you are at now. It was unfortunate that he passed away, I knew him and he was a very good man. Now to my point. Your particular school does well because he dominated in full contact in Hong Kong before he came over, and he stresses fighting very heavily from what I understand. It is not that Wah Lum is not competitve fighting wise it's more that Wah Lum concentrates on other aspects of Kung Fu than full contact. It's more like each to his own. We all know how to fight but some of us concentrate of forms or weapon or some on fighting. You must remember long range is also a trait of Northern systems.... /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Sow Choy
10-24-2000, 02:43 AM
I would like to apologise for my si dy

I am a senior instructor at the Lee Koon Hung Choy Lay Fut Kung Fu Association in Ft Lauderdale. Whoever it is speaking on our behalf who created this post, does not represent our school in any way.

We respect all styles and arts and wish to be friends with everyone in order to promote Martial Arts for everyone. I speak on behalf of Master Li Siu Hung who is Grandmaster Lee Koon Hung's brother.

All styles win and lose it doesn't matter. Never give up. And Master Li believes you shouldn't just talk about Kung u you need to do it.

I am very sorry if anyone was offended. Peace to all our Kung Fu brothers and sisters.

Joe Keit

10-24-2000, 02:43 AM
If you ask Master Sun about other styles and Martial arts "celebrities" he doesn't know them or hang out with them. You will never see him with bill "superfoot" wallace or any of the forms champions. He is one of the last Grandmasters of a complete system and there are very few people on earth at his level. I've asked him if he sought out anyone else like him and he said no. I think all those high level grandmasters just do their own thing. The wannabee Masters are the ones that are always jumping in front of the spotlight.

BTW thanks for the info on the CLF grandmaster. In the United States martial arts are either unknown or misunderstood. The life of a martial artist is hard, time consuming and very rewarding, but unless you live in San Fran, LA, or NY its a very solitary lifestyle. Few people in the U.S. have any respect or understanding for what we do. If were not emediately equated with "three ninjas" or the "Karate Kid" they think were the TKD geek they beat up in High School. Thats why I'm always looking for people that have trained hard are know a high level of material and have skill. They come from every martial arts style, but these people are few and far between

BlackJack....what I'm basically saying is that he knows kung fu and doesn't know anything about martial arts trivia. Either do I for that matter. If I don't know who the hell Jon Funk is, Does that mean I don't hit as hard?

8Step Sif

Black Jack
10-24-2000, 05:09 AM
Thats fine and the basic point I was trying to tell you is that there is a lot of very real stuff out there that your "Grandmaster" can not teach you and that to be honest some of your posts of late seem to be coming from a robot like backdrone..."my grandmaster is the only one"..."my grandmaster is the best"..."no one moves like him"...be carefull as that stinks of the same type of talk that you hear from the Sin The guys.

Sorry I just call them like I see them.

Of course you can still hit as hard but if you act like you know of everything out there and you realy dont know what is out there you should try to keep your personal "opinions" as opinions as that is what they are and not as some sort of stated fact.

I like your posts and I think you have a lot of stuff to add to any martial art post but be carefull when you speak of someone as the "answer" to what is out there when that "answer" has a sifu camp.

Just some helpfull advice


10-24-2000, 09:40 PM
I read your post and couldn't understand what you were talking about.

first of all

"Chan Heung created a handfull of forms and the system grew to over 100 forms, all looking like the next, save for a few variations."

I've studied 6 forms this far and none of them look the same. I understand that if you don't practise CLF yourself, the forms might look the same, but when you learn the form you understand that the principles are all different. you find out that the techniques are all different.

"he always maintained that Choy Li Fut WAS a Hung Kuen system"

I've always thought that CLF is more like Shaolin than hung gar.

"CLF doesn't really get into the higher levels, but that's not what it was intended for, at least not in the beginning."

Doesn't get into the higher levels? why you think there's over 100 different forms? Could the higher level fighting techniques be there? and no style is intended to get into higher levels in the beginning. in every style you have to learn the basic first.

"Choy Li Fut is a great foundation system to teach fighting FAST, but if you want to go into the higher levels, Wing Chun, Bak Mei, Hung Kuen,Bot Gwa,Tai Ge Kuen,Ying Yi Kuen,etc,were developed for tht."

Wing chun? I haven't studied wing chun but I've heard that it has.. 3 forms or something (I could be wrong here). how can this kind of style be considered as more "high level" style than CLF? Wing Chun with less techniques to learn would be, in my oppinion, the style that's fast to learn..

Nowadays Chan family Choy lee fut has more than 190 forms. claiming that style like this would be somehow low level is ridiculous. and I'm not saying that "more forms, better style" is a fact. I happen to know that clf gets incredibly high level when the practisioner has learned the basics.

I don't want to start a fight or anything, but I get the feeling, you're talking about things you don't know enough about..

10-24-2000, 10:02 PM
Why not? I wouldn't say competion is the same as real situations, that padded right punch maybe would have been your down fall on the street.Practical for what ? comps or real? Induvidual fighters teachers make the difference. I've seen clf guys being knocked out all over the place in Sydney comps trying to use Cup Choi or spinning elbows at the wrong time only to be rewarded with smelling salts.If you know how your techniques work and how to set them up right , your apponent may know 50 forms of a higher system but doesn't understand his basics.
Have you ever watched clf and white crane go for
it, they have a tendency to get tangled in each others arms (pretty cute stuff).

10-25-2000, 02:40 AM
Those are my opinions. I haven't seen anyone who moves like master sun. But I'm sure that he has. I haven't gone and sought out every kung fu school and I'm sure that many people here have done a lot of that. I'm curious as to what my master can't teach me? I'm not an expert and I don't claim to be, I know what I know and thats all.

[This message was edited by 8stepsifu on 10-25-00 at 07:53 PM.]

josh nyce
10-25-2000, 04:55 AM
But I can't help it B, hey if being proud is a crime than you should arrest me. I love our school, our style and everyone. I really don't know who I would've affended with this e-mail, I simply asked a quesion without putting any body down. But from everyone's replys, I have learned something. If all kung-fu was the same, this world would be a pretty boring place. Kung-fu is what each individual makes of it for sure.

Thanks for everyone's reply....

10-25-2000, 08:11 AM
are u saying that Wing Chun is better than Hung Gar and CLF??

10-25-2000, 10:53 AM
i think that he may mean just as good, but then again maybe not.
i think it is pretty rude for anyone to assume their style is the best, as we should all know it is quite often more the practitioner not the style that can make an impressive fighter.
i think what will offend most is the statement of it being the most practical style.(isn't this the same reason we get upset with the bjj people who claim to be so superior)