Shuai Chiao, judo, and jujitsu

[SanHeChuan]

Shuai Chiao, judo, and jujitsu

How do these styles compare and contrast. Does any one out there know Shuai Chiao and another wrestling type style? If you only take one of these styles talk about that.

[neptunesfall]

the following is taken from an article about Sifu Gene Chicoine, which can be found at: http://w3.blackbeltmag.com/halloffame/html/215.html

"Judo has only a portion of [shuai chiao's throws]," Chicoine says. "Take osoto gari, which is a judo sweep. To Us, that is called diagonal striking. The guy reaches or throws a blow, and we block and come in. If we're just going to throw, we do the same thing [as the judo stylist]. But the way we do it isn't their way. We can block, strike and break the collarbone, bring the knee up into the pelvic area, grab the back of the head and slam him face-down into the floor or the ground. We're not just going to take him back, as in the sport part of it."

Those shuai chiao combinations Chicoine loves to describe in bonebreaking detail can include severely damaging hand and foot strikes, along with powerful joint locks. "The style was never just for throwing," he insists.

Even though the comprehensive system also includes strikes, kicks and blocks, make no mistake about it: The throw is most important. Chicoine ex- plains why: "Until you put a guy down on the ground, you haven't won. A lot of what's done in fighting-especially in this country, where they come up to you and try to tackle, grab or wrestle you-[does not address this issue]. If you can throw, the guy is gone."

[Merryprankster]

To say that Judo only has a portion of shuai chiao's throws srtikes me as kind of silly... as though one were fundamentally more sound. Not superior in this case--different. Now, obviously, shuai chiao's throws are superior to the grappling of TKD, so I'm not against absolute judgments of that kind...

Just for the record, to say the fight doesn't end till it hits the ground strikes me as incorrect--sometimes, the fight has just begun!! However, if you can drop somebody on their head while you remain standing, that is certainly a good thing to learn.

I've wrestled, done a little Judo, and currently do BJJ. I cannot speak to Japanese Jujutsu. Different animal altogether.

Wrestling has a lot of leg attacks as well as the upper-body throws. The emphasis on takedowns and pinning means that you will learn how to execute and defend a variety of takedowns, and excellent positional control on the ground. Since pins are called quickly, you learn basically one escape--the neck bridge. It's hard to do anything else fast enough. Wrestling will teach you how to drop somebody on their head as well as any other stand up grappling style. The lack of clothing means that the control points you learn will work on anybody, regardless of dress. Wrestlers, because they do not wish to go to their backs, develop a great "base." If a wrestler doesn't want to be turned over, you are going to have a hard time doing it.

Judo tends to use a more "natural," stance than wrestling. More upright, as though you were standing comfortably. The reason for this, other than that is the way it is "classically," taught, is because the over the back grip is a rotten thing for you to get caught in, and if you adopt the traditional wrestler's crouch, you'll tend to get thrown with over the back grip throws a lot.

Judo has many throws that are easily adaptable to life without clothing, but many of their techniques are hard to pull off without a good grip on clothing of some sort. The footsweeps come immediately to mind, but there are some others that are difficult without the gi.

Judo recognizes that there is a ground game and you will learn excellent pinning positions as well as some submission skills and chokes. The downshot is that many judoka "turtle," when they hit the mat. Good for a game where they stand you back up if the mat work doesn't progress immediately, not so hot if you are in the street. However, that is EASILY trained out, and the fact that you get both a standing game and a decent ground game is pretty cool.

Word of note--the gripping rules in Judo comps SUCK. Basically, everytime somebody comes up with a new grip, they ban it or restrict the amount of time you have to hold that grip...supposedly this is in the interest of "active judo," but in reality, it started because the Russians and Eastern Europeans began murdering classical Judoka with unorthodox grips :)

Judo will teach you to remain standing during your takedowns, and dumps people on their head with the best of them.

BJJ has a HIGHLY developed ground game. Positioning is excellent. The average BJJer will be better at dominating position on the ground than an average Judoka or wrestler of similar experience level. They will also tend to be better at jointlocks and chokes. The most notable asset of BJJ is its highly developed use of the guard position in order to sweep or submit an opponent. A good guard can quite literally make it feel as though you are riding a wave, constantly off balance, or like a marrionette on strings.

The downshot of BJJ is a lack of standing proficiency. In a game where takedowns are worth 2 points and that is the lowest score for a move available, the emphasis is on the ground. On the upshot, the gripping rules don't suck...grab pretty much anywhere you want as long as four fingers are NOT inside the cuffs of the gi :)

BJJ schools typically include some no gi grappling because you need proficiency in both.

All of the above arts will provide you with the grappler's "mat sense," necessary to successfully execute grappling styles; it's just that their specialties are different.

To sum up, ON AVERAGE:

Wrestlers: Great Takedowns and base.
Judo: Great throws, good pins, ok to poor groundwork.
BJJ: ok to poor takedowns of any sort, Great matwork

[DelicateSound]

How am I suposed to follow up after that post :D

Yes MPS, the grip rules in Judo suck like Raleks mom. That is one thing that REALLY p!ssed me off.

As for Japanese Jujitsu, from what I have done, its pretty close to Judo, but way less sporty, and with a greater level of proficience in locks, chokes etc. Obv. it includes a striking side. It's pretty well-rounded but IMHO it's a little lacking in force and sparring. It's be a great cross-training art though.

[Water Dragon]

To say that Judo has only a portion of Shuai Chiao's throws is correct. To say that Shuai Chiao only has a portion of Judo's throws is correct as well. Both of the arts share the same primary focus, to throw the other guy down. What makes Shuai Chiao unique, IMO, is the difference in regards to secondary range.

Judo and wrestling basically suck in the striking department. The arts just never developed well in that area. They are very good at obtaining the clinch or hold, taking you down, and finishing you from there. In contrast, Shuai Chiao has solid strikes, excellant throws, but no ground game. Just as a wrestler or Judoka needs to find a solid striking art to round him out, the Shuai Chiao man needs to find a solid ground art.

The differences you do find, tend to center on the above commentary, IME. The basic idea of taking someone from a standing position tends to work on a few basic principles found in all arts. Basically, you can remove the base so the other guy has nothing to stand on, you can immobilize the upper body and knock out the root, you can immobilize the lower body and push the upper body past it so it loses its balance.

You see these principles in all 3 arts. How you get there is different, and what you do afterward is different as well. That's the difference in the secondary focus.

Which one should you take if you want good takedowns or throws? Find the best teacher in your area and study what they teach. Over time, you're going to personalize your art anyway. You need to learn the principle behind the throw, the actual way of achieving it is secondary.

[Merryprankster]

What Water Dragon said! :)

Sorry, I should have been more complete in my answer---Wrestling, Judo, and BJJ typically do NOT incorporate strikes in their training.... infrequently, if at all.

[Water Dragon]

And we have no ground game. Which leads me to a question for you. Based on how we talk about Shuai Chiao here, our strengths and weaknesses, what do you feel would be the best ground game for us to explore? I'm partial to BJJ, my teacher is partial to Sambo, and I definately have looked at folk wrestling as well.

Remember the goal for us is to survive the ground, not dominate it. I need good subs from a knee on stomach, good escapes from the guard positions, and a strategy to get me back up.

Caught the UFC for the first time in a while. I was impressed. FYI, it's starting to look like my idea of solid Gong Fu. Better developed clinch work is all thats lacking now IMO.

I also noticed that solid strategies have developed for defeating the groundfighter without being a groundfighter. Pulver's work against Penn was good, but I was really impressed with how Menne dealt with Bustamente; especially considering how good Bustamente is at his game. IMO, Menne epitimises the anti-ground game.

For those who don't follow the UFC, note this: Menne, a stand up fighter, was able to continually get back up from the ground against a BJJ blackbelt. The BJJ'er won the fight... With a knockout punch. Beautiful right, dropped him like a sack of potatos.

[DelicateSound]

Originally posted by Water Dragon
Remember the goal for us is to survive the ground, not dominate it. I need good subs from a knee on stomach, good escapes from the guard positions, and a strategy to get me back up.

I agree. You need good stomach muscles for one, to get up sharpish. You need to be able to strike well whilst in transition, and a good repertoir of escapes.

[Merryprankster]

Waterdragon;

I seem to recall there being a stand-up rule in Sambo for inactivity. I personally do not like these rules, as I believe you sometimes can't see what's going on under somebody's body... they might be trying to secure a certain grip before they move and now we gotta do it all AGAIN!!!

-There is less focus on positional dominance than in BJJ.

-You may not choke the opponent with their own Gi.

-The guard is not a highly developed position--you may not close your legs around your opponent.

-Knee on Belly is not a recognized position.

They have lots of leg locks. The style tends to be highly mobile because of the stand-up rule. The throwing part of the game scores like Judo in that there is an Ippon, and Judoka have done well in Sambo tournaments (and vice versa).

BJJ is a little slower. There is more emphasis on positional dominance. The guard is highly developed. Knee on belly has its own arsenal. You will spend more time on the mat, as BJJ happens mostly there.

Since you already have a stand-up grappling game, BJJ seems the "right" way to go--why go to Sombo and spend at least part of your time "re-learning" something you are already proficient in when you could spend your time on the mat?

[SevenStar]

Great posts here. Another thing I've noticed (and I may be wrong) is that shuai chiao throws are executed a little faster, as they tend not to rely on "hip loading" as much as judo players do.

[Archangel]

You know that Menne was an all american wrestler don't you. Everyone including the announcers were surprised that Murilo took him down. Butamente was a machine that night.

[Merryprankster]

Arch--

Once again showing that the one of the best ways to "anti-grapple" is to grapple!

[Stacey]

excellect point sevenstar, there is less hip loading. There are also forms. I know trad jj has forms, but I don't think they have forms for training a specific throw. I have seen skipping and shuffle drills, but the emphasis is different. I also beleive that judo has less rooted throws because they often like to go to the ground with the opponent.

[Merryprankster]

Stacey--

Nope. Not right. Most of the Judo throws are ideally made with you remaining on your feet.

HOWEVER, because the rules of the game are more about putting your opponent on their back with the throw, you do see some sacrifice throws. In Judo comps, it's about how your opponent ends up, not how YOU end up... provided you don't IPPON yourself :)

[SevenStar]

Yeah, I agree there. They are designed for you to remain standing, but Judo does have sacrifice throws thugh, like o soto gari and tani otoshi. Also, Judo does have pinning forms. I'm not sure about JJ.

[Merryprankster]

Totally agree Seven :)

[Water Dragon]

Originally posted by SevenStar
Great posts here. Another thing I've noticed (and I may be wrong) is that shuai chiao throws are executed a little faster, as they tend not to rely on "hip loading" as much as judo players do.

I feel so as well. I know we tend to place more of an emphasis on walking through the throw. This could have a lot to do with the grip and gi work in Judo though. I guess we have to hope a practitioner with ability in both schools comes along and gives a solid answer.

[Archangel]

"Once again showing that the one of the best ways to "anti-grapple" is to grapple!"

Very very true, Can you believe that lateral drop that Bustamente pulled off!!!!! I was out of my seat for that one.

[Merryprankster]

Nah. Didn't see it. Sorry :)

[EARTH DRAGON]

If I may i would like to show you guys a my favorite shuai chiao throw bung tiao...

[SevenStar]

Mine is a shoulder throw - rhino gazes at the moon

[Nichiren]

I would actually be a little worried if a style comes out saying that they use a lot of techniques, e.g. more than judo. My experience is that it is the "simple"(maybe beginner throws is a more correct term) throws that works the best. I love harai goshi.. :D

[Brad Souders]

Though Busta is probably my favorite fighter you also have to look at the Top Team has be training with Darrel Golihar the last couple months. His striking is waht impressed me. Lloyd Irvin in my opinion also has strong takedowns and world class leglocks for a guy some people would consider a BJJ guy.

[Merryprankster]

Brad,

Lloyd has a Black belt in Sombo, and trains with Rhadi Ferguson in Judo. He is the current masters national Judo Champ in his weight class from my understanding.

Lloyd's a bad-ass.

He's also my instructor :)

[Brad Souders]

Merry maybe we have met somewhere along the way. My instructor who also happens to be my cousin is Eric Grove. He has trained with Lloyd alot and really enjoyed working out with him. Haven't seen Lloyd myself since he cornered Eric's fight against Adrian Serrano a couple years ago. I was glad to hear Lloyd did so well in Judo and i was there when he competed in Sombo nationals in VA. Hopefully somewhere in the future Merry we'll have the chance to meet up and bull****.

[MonkeySlap Too]

Well, I had a shodan in Judo before I started Shuai Chiao so maybe I can offer some thoughts:

Judo does not have the more 'dangerous' throws. Kano Jigaro removed them in order to make the art more acceptable to the school system. Judo is definitly taught largely as a sport - and has developed away from it's martial roots. But that does not mean a judo man is not a tough adversary. Judo has sacrifice throws - which despite the emphasis against them in Shuai Chiao, I know from experience that you can pull them off in the street without harming yourself. Judo also offers mat work.

The fundamental throwing methods in Judo really take advantage of the jacketed style. Shuai Chiao in it's sportive sense also leverages the jacket in throwing - but it's gripping strategies seem to relate better to non-jacketed grappling.

Shuai Chiao in it's modern sense - the Chang Shia arts is certainly a well rounded art - more focused as a martial art. Although the strictly sportive version is still very strong. Depending on whom you learn from, the emphasis can be strictly sport.

Judo is highly codified, whereas there seems to be a wide variance among Chang Tung Sheng's students in terms of how and what they teach - even though it is obviously built on the same material. It seems to me that the more of a 'big wind' you hear, the less ability you see.

Some of the most significant differences lie in the footwork and off balancing strategies. But, that is easier to demonstrate than write about.

In my opinion, Shuai Chiao preps the average student for fighting skilled martial artists better than Judo.

[Merryprankster]

Hmmm....

Eric Grove.

Did he by any chance go to a tournament in VA beach, Summer of 2000, sort of spur of the moment?

Is he also pretty good at leg locks?

[Brad Souders]

I'm pretty sure that was him that went along. It was a month before his Dangerzone fight if i remember correctly.

[Merryprankster]

Yes. I remember him.

Tough cookie. I'd only been doing this for about six months then. He commented that I "felt" like an ex-wrestler :)

Good skills.

[Brad Souders]

If your ever up in PA let me know. my e-mail is striking_grappler@yahoo.com

[Merryprankster]

Where in PA, if you don't mind my asking?

I can be reached at

javalentine11@
hotmail.
com

[Brad Souders]

I live right now in York PA which is right above Baltimore. I also train at another school which is where Eric is. It is 30 minutes north of Hagerstown MD and 30 minutes south of Chambersburg PA.