S.Teebas latest thought!

[S.Teebas]

If wing Chun is based on natural movement. Does that mean we already know it...just don’t yet recognise it?

Should we spend all our time practicing what we know, or instead be searching for what it really is.

I mean, what our perception of wing chun is today...will probably be 180 degrees of how we see it in 10 years (provided we advance).

What do you think?

[whippinghand]

Originally posted by S.Teebas
If wing Chun is based on natural movement. Does that mean we already know it...just don’t yet recognise it? It means that we had it when we were born, but was undone starting from that point on.

[Jeff Liboiron]

yeah, we may have been born with it, but i didn't know how to move my body naturally until i started learning wing chun.

[Martial Joe]

I think it means it is natural to the human body structure...

[old jong]

We know that newborn baby can naturaly swim if putted in water but I don't think that they can fight!
I think like Joe that wing chun motions are natural in the sense that you don't need to develop a great deal of physical flexibility to be good at it. I think mental flexibility is more usefull.
We could say "we don't kick the head or punch the toes!";)

[straight blast]

One of my instructors yesterday explained the natural shape of WC really well. I was standing with my hands clasped behind my back. He pointed out that my arms were bent at precisely the angle that they are used at when guarding or forming the triangle structure. He then pointed to one of the Japanese girls there. Her right hand was hanging low, but her left was resting on her hip, and once again her arm was at the correct angle.

He was able to point it out in about six of us just by the way we were standing comfortably. The Wing Chun arm postion/angle is about as natural as it gets.

As for the stance though...:D

[Nichiren]

The human being have two natural respones; flee or fight. Take your pick... I choose fight!

[whippinghand]

I believe the issue is natural movement, not fighting. Movement is movement. How you apply the movement determines whether it is for fighting, dancing, or swimming.

[anerlich]

I don't think WC is based on "natural movement" as much as movements with maximum biomechanical efficiency which exploit to the full the physiology's structure and functions for which it is designed.

I'm not even sure that walking erect is strictly a "natural" movement; all babies go through a learning process to learn to stand and walk.

whippinghand is correct in that healthy children are born with abilities to move through a wide range of motion with suppleness and flexibility and move and contort their bodies without strain; as we get older we tend to lose at least some of that freedom of movement due to injury, inactivity, unhealthy movement patterns and activities, etc. Kung Fu and Yoga are arguably designed to return that freedom and ease of movement we enjoyed as children.

You can do movements which look like WC without biomechanical efficiency. It'll be crap, even pathological, but you can do it. The forms and movements of WC are not "natural", but hopefullly they make efficent use of the body. Hopefully the practice will lead you towards greater freedom and ease of movement in general activities as well as combat.

[S.Teebas]

The forms and movements of WC are not "natural"

But they are!

[Frank Exchange]

Some things like bong are easy, it is a natural position, for the arm to hang like that (with due consideration given to the fact that your lineage may do it differently etc ;) ), but how is placing your elbow in the centre for fuk or tan sao natural?

Most people cant do it at first, and have to train for months before they can do it with no effort.

[mun hung]

What is the purpose or advantage for placing your elbow in center for fook sao and tan sao. I don't practice it this way, that's why I'm asking. How many other people on the board do it this way? Not trying to criticize, just curious.

[Sihing73]

Hi Mun Hung,

One argument for the placement of the elbow in would be that it represents the ideal position. If you are used to placing the elbow in center and are attacked then even if you don't get it all the way in you will be much closer due to always stressing that position. In other words we train for perfection so that if we are less than perfect in application it will still work.

The elbow in for Fook Sau provides an obstacle for someone striking along that line. During Chi Sau if your opponent tries to strike and your Fook is in center it will naturally form an obstacle for him to get past. This enables you to defend yourself much more efficiently. In this way even if your reaction is not as quick the structure of the Fook will aid in defending along that line.
If you train with the elbow out then you require either more movement to stop an attack or a different angle. You may find you need to shift in order to effectivley stop an attack. The elbow in is usually a bit stronger as well. However, some would argue that the elbow being more out is more flexible. Both ways are valid as long as you understand the possibilities.

The idea behind Taun is much the same. The angle when the elbow is in closer to center provides a stronger position stucturaly. If you shift and deal with an attack then the elbow being in center provides a stronger position. Again, some people will perform with the elbow not on center. Some are unable to get the elbow in. These methods can work but may require more movement. In other words the postion with the elbow in can provide an obstacle all on its own. The elbow out may require something to be added whether it be a step or turn or some type of movement of the arm.

Try this; perform a fook on the dummy with the elbow in center and then again with the dummy further out. Which one feels stronger? Now do the same with the taun sau. Of course with taun you may need to step or shift. But try both ways and see which one feels stronger. The strength is not from muscles but comes from the bones and the shape.

Just some quick thoughts. Each way can work and is valid. I think :confused:

Peace,

Dave

[kj]

Mun Hung,

You asked
What is the purpose or advantage for placing your elbow in center for fook sao and tan sao. I don't practice it this way, that's why I'm asking. How many other people on the board do it this way? Not trying to criticize, just curious.

In an ideal Wing Chun world, we would be flexible enough to comfortably place the elbow smack-dab in the center. Then, forward motions and strikes could be placed perfectly in the center of the target, driven perfectly forward with the elbow, and without errors or deviations in position or direction of force.

Having said that, people and circumstance are neither perfect nor ideal. I disagree with "forcing" the elbow to the center. I do, however, agree with slow maturation for increased flexibility and positioning range. Some people are built such that they will never get their elbows to the precise center. Trying too hard can be far more deleterious than accepting a moderated inward elbow position. I have even seen some poor souls contort their bodies trying to get and keep an elbow on exact physical center. Contorted and tense bodies cannot lead to superior Wing Chun, IMHO. To us, it is more important to have a good, functional, and relaxed position, than a perfectly centered position with a lot of tension and improper forces.

More important (to us) than perfect center positioning, is the ability to keep the elbow down (mai jahng) and not flaring out (fai jahng), the shoulders down and relaxed, and the "intent" true. Allowing the fook sau or tan sau to be comfortably parallel to the center line and mildly in is sufficient. I do not want my tan sau and fook sau to be one-position-only relative to the centerline, but to operate well within a range.

So, IMHO, no, it is not essential to put the elbow directly on that centerline, though it doesn't hurt to have that ability.

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

[anerlich]

The forms and movements of WC are not "natural"


But they are!

One line sound bites do not an argument make.

I don't suppose you'd care to elaborate on what you mean by "natural"?

The definition of "natural" I am working with is something that a human does without requiring training or tuition. When did you last see a baby stand in a pigeon toe stance with his guard out? Did you need someone to show you SLT or bil jee, or were you already doing them in the crib? If so, then I agree WC may be "natural" to you (though not to me or just about everyone else)?

I see WC as "biomechanically efficient in accordance with movements the body was designed to make".

I am happy to be proved wrong by reasoned argument. "yes it does" and "no it doesn't" and their ilk don't cut it. I know you got better than this, let's see it!

[whippinghand]

Originally posted by anerlich
healthy children are born with abilities to move through a wide range of motion with suppleness and flexibility and move and contort their bodies without strain; as we get older we tend to lose at least some of that freedom of movement due to injury, inactivity, unhealthy movement patterns and activities, etc. Kung Fu and Yoga are arguably designed to return that freedom and ease of movement we enjoyed as children.


I very much agree with the above up until a point. I wouldn't say that the practises suggested have the potential to fully return the freedom that a child experiences, nor would we want that. But we do want it to the point that facilitates us being as powerful as possible, for our body type. (You may have touched upon that already)

[mun hung]

Kathy Jo - you've read my mind.

Dave, I don't recall seeing your elbow in center. I know that you're just trying to offer your input on the subject so I appreciate it nonetheless.

Does the elbow in center really represent the ideal position? I don't feel that it does. IMHO, I feel that with the elbow in center, the fook or tan would be structurally weak having no support from the shoulder and leaving an opening for a strike from the outside. I feel that this would only work with someone who is doing the same as you are and attacking along the center with their elbows in also. I feel that as soon as you break the line from shoulder to elbow to wrist - you're losing out structurally and relying on just the power from elbow to wrist. Try delivering a punch from this position. Does it have any power?

Since we are discussing natural movement, I don't feel that the elbow in center is very natural at all, nor does it feel natural. What I feel would be natural would be having the elbow just slightly in front of the body without any sort of tension while maintaining structure from the shoulder to the elbow to the wrist. Don't mean to ramble on about this, it's just that I've seen some pretty extreme exaggerations of this elbow in the center stuff.

Alrighty then...

[Frank Exchange]

>> What is the purpose or advantage for placing your elbow in center for fook sao and tan sao. I don't practice it this way, that's why I'm asking. How many other people on the board do it this way? Not trying to criticize, just curious. <<

Because sometimes it is necessary to have it there. This by no means implies that it is there all the time.

An example, when hitting with fook sao, your opponents arm is on the inside of your fook, and may be able to get off a counter strike. If you bring the fook to the centre as you hit, the opponents arm is deflected off your centre, ensuring your hit is clean.

Another example, the pak-sao followed by palm strike in the second part of SLT. In the WSL lineage, the concept is again that your centre may be threatened as you are hitting, so the elbow comes to the centre as the palm continues to the target, the elbow again diverting any opponents counter.

Or jum sao. How would you do single chi sao without bringing the elbow to the center when the opponent palm strikes and you are in tan sao? The concept here is all about covering the centre also. The advantage of centering the elbow in this situation, rather than forcing the opponents arm down, is that you divert the strike, but also end up with your arm aiming at the target, rather than away from it.

Again, it is not there all the time, but it is useful in some situations. :)

[S.Teebas]

anerlich.....

Perhaps you could say what you think of the forms is un-natural? Are you saying that getting power from the forms movements are unnatural..or the movement? Is that what the forms are about anyway...movement in a natural way?
Isn't that what you aim for anyway.... to move in WC naturally? thats how people who are good at things do things, they make it seem easy, natural! so why not move naturally?....so why not find a way to make it natural... compare the movements in your forms to every day movements...bong sau, look at your watch. Tan sau, get your change.
You move naturally all day every day till you should.

[mun hung]

I just don't see the reasoning of why the wrist "and" the elbow have to dominate the center. With the right energy, is'nt the wrist enough?

[black and blue]

Excellent posts regarding elbow positioning. Almost wish this part of the thread was a thread in itself in order to attract more posts.

This question has plagued my training over the past few months. While always maintaining mai jahng for tan sau and fook sau, elbow on centre line (all the time) seems problematic.

During SNT (the tan/fook section), I've found that keeping the elbow pulled in on the centre line creates tension in the shoulder. This can't be right, can it?

It's my understanding that the shoulders must be down AND relaxed. I haven't yet begun Chi Sau training, but during this exercise (when directly facing an opponent), surely elbows in covers the centre line but exposes the shoulders?

But maybe this is the point. Would be better to take a hit around the shoulders than through the middle.

My instructor has told me I start Dan Chi Sau in two weeks time. I spent the rest of the lesson smiling like a school boy :D

[Frank Exchange]

>> I just don't see the reasoning of why the wrist "and" the elbow have to dominate the center. With the right energy, is'nt the wrist enough? <<

The emphasis in our way is on the elbow controlling the opponent, rather than the wrist. The reasoning behind it is that the elbow is closer to the body, only one joint away, rather than the wrist, which is two joints away. If you like, the elbow is more "connected" to the body.

By concentrating on the elbow rather than the wrist or forearm, the hands are free to relax, which tends to increase sensitivity and speed, and helps freedom of movement and flow once you are in close.

The hands are largely irrelevant until you actually hit. One of WSL instructors, Philip Bayer, had his wrist amputated by a military rocket fin (complicated story!), and has not found this a great disadvantage.

But, your question was actually to do with the elbow dominating the centre, rather than the wrist. Apart from the reasons above about preferring elbow control and feeling, simply put, if the elbow is not pointing towards the target, the hit doesnt have the
same forwardness as when it is pointing there, and also may leave a gap for the opponents counter.

Again, I must stress this is only in specific situations, when your opponents arm is inside yours, and you are controlling it. If his arm is way off over his own centre, then just hit him from wherever your arm is. And, of course, if his arm is outside yours, to cover the centre as you hit would be downright foolish.

As you get more advanced, you can be a lot more relaxed about these things, and rely on experience more, I guess I agree with the "right energy" comment.

But for beginners, it is a useful skill to have, which is why we teach it, which is why it takes time to learn as the shoulder and back muscles stretch, which is why it is an initially unnatural movement for many. :)

[whippinghand]

To have elbow in centre, you need extra "torque", right? Hmmmm...... comes in handy sometimes.

[old jong]

Elbow this...Wrist that!...What is the best way to use a technique?...Just have someone who is a good puncher try it for real on you and you will see if your elbow or wrist is well placed!
Don't forget to do this test when moving around because you will not fight in YGKYM.
You need also to be able to use your techniques against usual punches. Not perfect center punches you will never see in the street anyway.
This way ,you will make a balance between theory and reality. A good thing to do!;)

[mun hung]

Bravo!

[sanchezero]

Another reason for working the elbows to the center is literally structural -

If your elbow and wrist occupy centerline then your entire forearm is aimed at your partner (talking chi sao here) in a straight line. This structure is much more 'deflective' than that with the elbow out. The elbow out puts the forearm at an angle and leverage can be applied efficiently to the wrist using forward energy.

If the elbow AND wrist occupy center then forward energy is met by the whole body and horse, making it difficult to move the arm without resorting to a 'lateral' energy. And you know what happens then :D

Of course, as others have stated, there are times when the elbow must leave center even in chi sao, but by not training your elbow to center you miss out on certain structural elements fundamental to ving tsun. Its not always easy to place your elbow in the center without sacrificing the rest of your body position or stiffening up. Thats why it must be trained with good SLT and attention to arm position in chi sao.

Yadda yadda yadda :)

[old jong]

I don't know how to say but: everytimes and I mean everytimes I chi sau with someone who keeps his elbows centered,I punch him all the times because he can't protect his lines that way.It is very easy to punch over a centered tan sau with the fook hand and it is the same with using pak sau on the fook hand (again centered) from the same fook hand and punching from the tan sau hand.:rolleyes: (is that clear?);) I think a triangular structure with the wrist in the center (elbows not out but in a more natural placement)allows for a more efficient coverage! (Mun Hung will be so happy! ;))
It is just my humble opinion but it is based on some experience. ;)
We could say: It is not needed to be more catholic than the pope! ;)

[anerlich]

Perhaps you could say what you think of the forms is un-natural?

Perhaps I could. Perhaps, however, you could also give the definition of "natural" you are working with, as I asked in my last post, so that we could at least work from common definitions. I've given mine in my earlier posts.

You've moved from the throwaway one liners to answering a question with a question. You seem to think I'm wrong, but don't give me any handles to find out why.


thats how people who are good at things do things, they make it seem easy, natural!

"Seem" being the operative word. I watched Ken Bradshaw tow surfing at Jaws on TV again the other day. He made it look easy and "natural". But tow surfing is not a "natural" activity, it has to be learned and years of practice is required. Same as with WC. Keeping your elbow in is not "natural", but it is biomechanically efficient. The human body was not "designed" to be towed into monster waves behind a jet ski, nor was it designed for WC. But training/learning can teach you to perform such things with maximum biomechanical efficiency and effectiveness.

The forms and their combat applications in any style should eventually be done so as they appear effortless, beautiful. I've seen many people with natural talent for KF come through, but none of them got to the stage of moving that way without years of committed training.

[anerlich]

Old Jong is correct. Pull the elbow in too far you reduce rather than increase your ablilty to respond.

You have to have your elbow in far enough in dan chi sao so that, say, in the fok sao your elbow blocks the opp's clear shot to the body, so he has to move youer arm out of the way so you can feel the movement and respond, but you can take "bring your elbow in to the centre" too far. "toWARD the centre" is better advice IMHO.

And I contend that this is not something that comes "naturally" to the untrained.

[whippinghand]

Understanding the purpose of elbow in centre is necessary for understanding the higher level techniques. Otherwise one's Wing Chun will remain just a brawling art.

[S.Teebas]

Hmm.. thought i did already. But here it is again:


so why not move naturally?....so why not find a way to make it natural... compare the movements in your forms to every day movements...bong sau, look at your watch. Tan sau, get your change.
You move naturally all day every day...


-----------------------------------------------------------------


The human body was not "designed" to be towed into monster waves behind a jet ski, nor was it designed for WC

Ok i see your analogy of the jet ski, but i think you misunderstand what i say. You say the human body was not designed for WC. But do you think WC was designed on the basis of natural movement that naturally occurs in most humans? (in every day life)

[mun hung]

"It is not needed to be more catholic than the pope!" :D

I agree with you 100 percent!

ESPECIALLY with the two key words you used -

triangular (excellent example for structure)

coverage (very good example of coverage, O.J.)

The way that I see it is that when people play the same game as you, everything will work. (both parties punch, tan, fook from the center)

What happens when I don't play your game, will it still work then?

Frank Exchange -

quote:

"The reasoning behind it is that the elbow is closer to the body, only one joint away, rather than the wrist, which is two joints away".

This is where your structure really counts. Especially from two joints away. (think triangles)

"if the elbow is not pointing towards the target, the hit does'nt have the same forwardness as when it is pointing there, and also may leave a gap for the opponents counter."

The elbow can still point at the target and have forwardness even if it is off to the side a little bit. And again, I must use the example of triangles.

Try using a handsaw to cut a piece of wood with your elbow and wrist in center, and then try it with your elbow in line with your wrist and shoulder. I think you'll find that you'll still be able to cut the piece of wood on the same spot from both angles, but the latter one would have been much easier, more efficient, more powerful, and more "natural".

[Frank Exchange]

>> The elbow can still point at the target and have forwardness even if it is off to the side a little bit. And again, I must use the example of triangles. <<

I absolutely agree. But there is a gap available for a good opponent to make use of. If the person is less advanced, you dont have to worry about this so much. But, in a fight, it is hard to know who is good and who is not, so I prefer to be safe. I appreciate and agree with your example of the saw. In our thinking getting a hit whilst ensuring you are protected from a counter is more important than just getting the hit.

As I said before, when you are more advanced, it is much easier to be relaxed about these sort of things, and you can indeed punch from wherever you find yourself.

And I must agree with Old Jong, if people constistently chi sao with their elbows in the centre, they will get whacked.

So, to reiterate, there are SOME situations, not all, in which having the elbow in the centre is useful, which is why we are trained to do it.

Regards
Frank

[old jong]

Other arts like BJJ are focussing on what is effective and realist instead of being mysterious and for the "good students" only! Notice the succes they had in the last years!...
Wing Chun has all it needs as a system to be effective in real combat unless it's practitioners lose themselves in never ending discussions about cutting hairs in halves and the "only way" to do something. When you have to fight to defend yourself,it does not matter where is your elbow or whatever. you will use the results of your years of practice and do your best.
Remember ,you will use what you will have ingrained. Are you going to face an opponent in YGKYM with a hand chasing attitude?...:rolleyes:
I see no problems in considering Wing Chun a "high brawling art"

[dzu]

I train to keep my elbow along the mid-clavicular line (midway between the center/sternum and the shoulder line). From a structural standpoint, the shoulder stays relaxed and force is efficiently passed on. Try having a partner apply pressure to your tan sau in the center, mid clavicle, and shoulder lines. Too close to the center or too close to the shoulder will cause your elbow and shoulder not to align properly.

If too close to the center, the shoulder is the weak point and you'll feel some strain there. If too close to the shoulder, the elbow becomes the weak point, and the bridge can be easily separated from the body.

The other reason why I use the mid clavicle line is that it puts my elbow in the center so that I can go to both extremes quickly if needed. If I start at the center, I need to go twice as far to reach the shoulder line and vice versa.

Too far in and your outside lines are exposed, too far out and your inside lines are exposed.

Dzu

[anerlich]

S. Teebas

When I look at my watch, I lift my forearm to horizontal, pronate my wrist, and look down. I don't do a bon sao.

Money and watches are artificial, not natural.

I'm done on this topic. I'm stating my opinion, not looking for agreement.

[fmann]

I don't consider Wing Chun to occur "naturally" to most people. The motions may seem natural to a practioner, but ask any beginner and they will tell you that they don't feel comfortable in YJKYM. Rather, the YJKYM trains an important aspect -- it's discomfort makes you want to spring forward and get out of that d a mned stance as soon as possible.

Chinese MA and ancient culture in general is towards "cultivation" of a higher understanding. There is no Chinese MA that professes to train the innate self-defensive skills in all people. Rather, Chinese MA teach you to fight utilizing a developed, empirical system, aka one based on observations of effectiveness. Why fight like a tiger, snake, dragon, etc.? Where is that "Human" style, where one fights like the highest developed human?

If anyone has seen or cross-trained in systema, that system stresses more "natural" movements and utlizing your natural reactions. For example, when someone makes an aggressive motion, systema stresses going with your natural flinch and instinct to cover up, but using these motions to off-balance and then power forward.

It's hard to put in to words, but these are my ramblings.

[whippinghand]

Originally posted by old jong
I see no problems in considering Wing Chun a "high brawling art" I figured you wouldn't....

Perhaps, you're satisfied with that... that's great... for you.... not great for me. I have higher standards for myself.

[Miles Teg]

Mun Hung & Old Jong
I agree with you 100%. I used to train in a style that has elbows right in the middle, and I know first had that it doesnt work unless you are training with someone from your own style.

It is easy for other people to get around you and also control you because you have no power.
I have heard all the reasons why it should be this way from my old school.
And it made sense when explained but not in practice. When we did punching drills the oponent always attacked straight down the center, also with their elbows in so it was an unrealistic situation.
To the person who said it is trained this way so in a real conflict situation your elbows will still be in, even if it is not as much (or words to that effect), does that mean that all through out your class you have to be in that tense, uncomfortable position just for that? You are missing out on so much if you are not able relax the arms properly.

[Sihing73]

Hi Miles,

Not sure if you are referring to what I posted or not but here is a reply ;) .

Training with the elbows in represents the optimum for training. If one can keep elbows in center then if they drift during a conflict the extra flexibility and development of issuing power from the elbow will cary over. I kind of like Dzus illustration of elbow being in mid line or the half way point. Seems to make sense. However, if one trains an extreme then reverting to a less extreme position can be much easier. A good example is the stance and footwork. Many styles train low stances, some very low. Yet when they fight they may adopt more of a mid level stance. The extra strength developed by the low stances and leg development carry over when in a slightly higher stance. However, very few can fight from a very low stance, though some can. My point is that one is for training while the other is for fighting. When performing the first part of the SNT many will do it very slowly, yet in application it is done more quickly. I hope you can see what I am getting at.

Peace,

Dave

[old jong]

Hey Whippinghand! At last you are expressing something! You are actually telling the forum about a thought of your's! This shows that you have actually can share some opinion with others and not always post mysterious one liners about knowledge you are the only one to possess!....You are on the good path. Keep on.
Oh BTW...My low standards don't include loosing.You see, I prefer to win with a slightly off center elbow! It's a shame but what the heck,that's me!;)

[Miles Teg]

I think most of the people who practice with their elbows that far in are Ling Ting stylists if I am not wrong.
I used to practice that style and I know that the elbows are not always in. When you turn and execute tan da the elbow of the tan moves out from the center to your side.
Is that right?

But still, practicing SNT in this way (with the elbow in) for me did didnt give me that gliding feeling that you get from doing the form, when your arms feel like the are acting of their own free will. I have found you have to be completely relaxed to get this feeling. If your elbows are in the center then the shoulder and the bicep are tense. Apparently in Tai Chi theory your limbs resemble a hose that when folded or bent restricts the flow of energy. Thats why when I now practice the form I am told to focus on being as relaxed as poosible while concentrating my intention in the right way. Actual positioning and technique are not as important as getting this right, then when you have the right flow you can gradually start to think about positioning a little.

I realise that if you have trained with the elbows in for a long time you may well be able to relax, but then you wont be able to grasp the internal aspect of it as quickly.

Just what I have found

[whippinghand]

Originally posted by old jong
My low standards don't include loosing.You see, I prefer to win with a slightly off center elbow! It's a shame but what the heck,that's me!;)

It is a shame. I prefer to "win" as well, whatever that means to you. I use the elbow at the shoulder line, as well as half-way between the centre and the shoulder line, as well as the centre itself. Whatever is needed to accomplish the desired outcome, based on the situation at hand. I'd prefer not to limit my options.

But heck that's just me.

[old jong]

It's very good not to limit anything! With the exception of arrogance maybe?...But this is another story.
;)

[whippinghand]

You would know...

[old jong]

Do you know?...
Anyway,is a fool who knows he's a fool less a fool than a fool who does'nt know he's a fool?;)

[Juan Alvarez]

Les couteaux volent bas!!!

[whippinghand]

A fool who knows he's a fool, is a very wise man.

[Sihing73]

Hi Guys,

Just when it looked like it was safe to post on the forum it starts to degenerate again :( . Can't we all just please get along :D

WH you have shown an ability to contribute without being condenscending so why revert to old ways? You and Old Jong can dissagree but do it as adults. I am amazed at how people would rather trade blows then information to build up the art.

I am not singling anyone out, though I am sure WH feels this is directed mostly at him. I am simply asking that everyone keep the slights to a minimum and the discussion of Wing Chun to the maximum. Please.......Pretty Please.........Pretty Pretty Please........Pretty Pretty Please with a Cherry on Top :D

Peace,

Dave

[old jong]

I will be nice with my little friend Whippinghand!...Can I go now?;)

[old jong]

:p :p :p :p :p :p :D

[whippinghand]

Originally posted by Sihing73
I am amazed at how people would rather trade blows then information to build up the art.
I am building the art up. I'm helping Old Jong sharpen his skills.

[old jong]

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: Remember I mentionned the word... arrogance?

[Sihing73]

Hello,

I am truly curious as to how these posts and their like help you in any way. It is all well and good to have some fun from time to time but is it really fair to subject everyone on the forum to such things? You have other options, you can e-mail each other, private message etc. Why subject everyone else to what in all honesty might be better discussed privately?

Do either of you honestly believe that you are helping anyone develope their Wing Chun by the most recent posts and if so in what manner? No snide one liners please try to give an honest answer. Unfortunately, while some may be able see through the apparent tone of your posts others may actually be put off by them.

If you truly enjoy the art of Wing Chun it would seem you would want to make things better rather than having them degenerate or remain the same. So my question remains, how do the most recent posts help anyone or the art? Wing Chun is about efficiency, among other things, so consider the manner of posting, is it truly efficient and does it accomplish anything?

Truly curious :confused:

Peace,

Dave

[whippinghand]

You're right, Dave. Point taken. It was getting out of hand. Old Jong should know better.

[old jong]

:rolleyes: