Should I sue temple kung fu?

[KungFuGuy!]

They lied to me to get me to join, so should I be able to sue them for false advertising?
I really regret wasting all that money, but I thought I had the opportunity to train under "the only westerner to ever train with the shaolin monks", so they told me. I worked 2 jobs and gave up my whole summer to pay for it, I feel so robbed. I've been given advice from a couple sources that I may have a case in court, one for false advertising (or something like that), or even for "emotional damage" when I found out they were fake and I had wasted all that money.
Anyways, I know we've got a couple lawyers here, could someone give me some advice?

[Slayer]

You got screwed, Find another place that is better and train untill you are good the go back and sparr them, and beat them.

With you suite, you might not even get enought to pay you lawyers.

Rogue Slayer

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

i don't know who these guys are or how gullible you had to be to believe them, but if you really feel like you can get something back for getting fu cked i wish you luck.

[KungFuGuy!]

Yeah I'm mostly mad at myself for being so goddam stupid, and if it weren't for this board I would still be training there ignorantly believing what they tell me.

You're right slayer, that's what I'm doing, but I'm having trouble leaving it in the past. I keep thinking of all that lost money (too embarrasing for me to give the amount) and time, and what I could have done with it instead.

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

". .. I would still be training there ignorantly believing what they tell me. "

how bad was it?

[KungFuGuy!]

Alright, well first of all, there is sparring once a week and you have to be invited into the "sparring club" to do so. This costs $800 (canadian) a year, I never joined this though. It's not even real sparring, it's slow motion "ok you do a move then I do a move" bullsh!t.
Next, they are really big on these punch counters, we did them in every class. They are so needlessly complex and ineffective it's rediculous. I thought they were pretty cool until I sparred with some karate friends of mine and realized they don't work, and resorted back to my tkd training.
Thirdly, not only is their lineage fake, it's fake kung fu altogether. The founder didn't train with the monks, he trained with his uncle in kempo karate. I read a court log where simon (the founder) said he was never in china and trained under his uncle in kempo. To confirm this, I looked at the fine print at the bottom of one of the instructor's black belt certificate, and it was authorized by the international kempo association.
It's so expensive because everyone gets an hour long private lesson every week, and then there's 2 group classes per week. Well that's what they tell you anyways. You actualy get 3 lessons a month, and a lesson usualy starts 5-8 minutes into the hour and ends 10 minutes before, sometimes 15 minutes before if they want to talk to you about buying the new book or clothing or equipment or program. Also, the instructor would disapear several times during the lesson and come back up to 10 minutes later.
More evidence that it's not kung fu: Karate gi's, belts, kias.
They have this crap called kungrobics, it's the biggest load of BS I've ever seen.
When we bow in and out a the beginning and end of classes we have to say "grand master simon, kia!" Even when I was blindly under their influence, I felt very silly, and when I started to learn the truth, I felt very dirty when I did this.
A uniform costs over $100, and there are 3 different uniforms that you eventualy have to buy.
Well I embarrased myself already, so I may aswell tell you how much I spent. I spent 4k canadian on training, and about $300 on uniforms and equipment. If I had stayed longer, I could have spent another 1000 on sparring club and equipment. Note; this was something I wanted to do for the rest of my life so felt that money wasn't an issue. Also, I had very little knowledge of martial arts outside taekwondo, and I thought very highly of a karate friend of mine's opinion (who is the one who suggested I join), but I now know that his knowledge on the subject is very limited.
Something good has come out of this, I am much smarter and less naive now. I'm also a lot more bitter and mean :D

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

dude!!!!!!!!!!!!

*trys not to laugh*

that fu cking sucks man. i just meant how bad was the training . .. the monitary loss was way more than i expected.

dude!!!

man if you really think you can get something back i say you do it. im not sure that you got a shot in hell though.

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

if it's in the states i'll help you vandalize the place.

i like breaking sh!t.

[scotty1]

Speak to lawyers (which is what you're trying to do now)
Sounds like you've got a case to me

I'm not going to say anything about your decision to do it because I don't want to make you feel worse than you must do already.

Dude that's painful.:(

[Yung Apprentice]

Sounds kinda like that Shaolin-Do BS. Man that sucks! :mad:

[Nichiren]

Anyone else feel like joining up with KungFuGuy and go to this fake doublecrossing a-hole "Kung Fu" club? Thrash the place and go medieval on them!!!! 4k canadian... Dammmmm...

[reemul]

With all the contraversy as to who is lagit and who is not, its all pretty much just specualation. I'm all for sueing, if you have a case, but you don't. Kinda hard to prove if something is shaolin even if it is fake and absolutely bogus. No one has a patent or trademark on the term kungfu or shaolin Kungfu.

[Yung Apprentice]

How much would this be in american dollars? Like 3k or something?

[DelicateSound]

I personally will fly to Canada from the UK to help you torch that place.

$4000! F u c k.

I've had all the sh!tty training ritual crap before, but $4000. Man, I'm really sorry.

[anton]

You probably have the equivalent of what we in Australia call the Small Claims Tribunal (anything under 5000 (i think) is a small claim). You don't really need a lawyer the whole thing is a Judge Judy type proceeding. Get some free advice from legal aid and sue for the money you lost.

Second thing i recommend you do is join a good kungfu school (I recommend Buck Sing Choy Lay Fut :D ), train your ass off, then come back, challenge all of them kick their ass then run around town pouring crap on their school, so they go out of business.
YEAHH!!!! :)

[DelicateSound]

Seriously - firebomb the school. A good getaway and you'll be OK, and you'll save a lot of other students hard cash.

Man, I'm glad I check up on all my schools beforehand. Bet those guys are laughing their arses off.

[buddhapalm]

Hi KungFuGuy,
Sorry to hear about the scam, can you tell me which city in Canada your in, perhaps I can recommend a good Sifu for you. Old-school and traditional.

Cheers

Buddhapalm

[Rolling Elbow]

Coming from a Fellow Canuck...i don't know how you could not see past the $$$ in the first place. Punches are punches, kicks are kicks..essentially they had you paying close to 5 gran for everything after the sparring for ONE year! Forget the courts..they have a rightt s a business to charge what they want. You may get them on false advertising without the credentials but the books and uniforms etc..that is their right to charge what they want.

What you should do is write the kempo association he is affiliated with and publicly make a statement to the local papers on the state of their business and their false advertising..don't go into the cult crap, go into the costs and their failing to deliver what they promised to. This angers the consumers and will likely make a better story than " i was brain washed". Make sure nobody else goes to this school and try to publicly humiliate the name of Temple Kungfu as much as possible. That is all you can really do..

s*&t..4k?! man, i spend 60 a month and i train 6 hours a week...don't be blinded by the name of the art or its "origins"..be convinced by what is taught...the legitimacy of an art and its origins are found in the art's effectiveness, not the instructor's ability to market it.

My peice of advice..stay away from anything labelled "shaolin" lol and do what i did when i first started in the bujinkan, ask to see your instructor's credentials and who he is affiliated with. In my case, the documents all came from Japan and his teacher was who he said he was(having bothe the rank and having spent the time in japan with Hatsumi and the other shihan). You have to go through this as a consumer if you don't want to get ripped off.

[shaolinboxer]

Wow, you got conned. It's okay though. Don't let it stop you from training.

You may even be conned again in different ways...it's something we all have to face trying to good quality instruction.

You can sue, but what will that do? Is it worth it?

Just move on and don't let it stop you on your quest for truth. Stuff like this happens, It's happening right now to people on this board and they don't even know it.

Just keep looking ahead.

[Budokan]

Caveat Emptor. More than just funny-sounding Latin words.

[KC Elbows]

Don't feel too bad. You got out pretty quick, and that's what counts. I did years of chung moo quan, and though the rates I paid weren't quite as bad as the ones you're quoting, I'm willing to bet the martial arts was every bit as bad, plus no sparring whatsoever, until you got to 2nd/3rd degree black belt.

Good luck on your martial arts, and don't get yourself get too down from being conned.

[JAZA]

GO to a consumer association they will use their lawyers, false advertisement and use of hierarchical systems to make you buy the uniforms.
OR make a HTML page and discreddit this school, go to the radio of the city and tell your experience.
OR go to Bush and tell him that Bin Laden is living there to bomb it.
:mad:

[firepalm]

Hey Kungfuguy,
Sorry to hear your story, believe we had a thread going on these scam artists some time back. Temple Kung Fu & the GM Dalai Simon are Canada's single biggest FU'CKing joke (check his site www.templekungfu.com), btw he also has schools in Washington state so US practitioners beware.

As someone mentioned you can take him to small claims court, the court transcript that was posted somewhere on this board should be a matter of court record in which you can provide it as evidence (re his false claim of being an actual student of the Shaolin temple). Who knows you may be able to get your money back. You mentioned that you have friends that are lawyers, perhaps just having Simon's people served with papers that you intend to take them to court they may refund you just to keep their name out of court.

You should also look in the phone book for the Better Business bureau and explain your case to them. They may in fact be able to help you in some way.

Look at this way, not only has he taken your money but also your time if you really value the two you should pursue the matter.

Good luck!

[Reappah-X]

As a general Rule...for anyone looking for a school...be very very wary of anyone who claims they were trained in the Shaolin Temple : )

Most of these jokers probably watched the TV Show Kungfu in the 70s with David Carradine and made schools to capitolize on public misinformation and lack of knowledge.

Reap

[qeySuS]

what about the other students there? You were there for a year you must have made some friends there, i cant beleave that they cannot be convinced to look at the same evidence you looked at. It's pretty bad that you got into this but to think this is an entire business in multiple locations and countries sounds BAD.

Are you sure you cannot talk to the people at the school yourself and try to settle this without lawyers?

[Johnny Hot Shot]

I tryed to tell you way back in like sept. that you were wasting you r time and Money. But you were all like you don't know what your talking about.... Dude I feel bad for you new revelation but you cannot sue them it will be even more of a waste of your time and money.

[Fu-Pow]

What would Wu De dictate in this case?

[David Jamieson]

Fu Pow, you make the best point of this thread from my view. :D

Wu De would dictate that face shall not be lost by either without crossing hands.

IE: Walk away and say nothing unless you wanna cross hands with an instructor or the owner and upon victory they lose face and you prove your point.
If you fail, you lose face and they do not.

If you leave now, you do not lose face, they do not lose face and the case is closed with everyone maintaining.

KungFu Guy, what it comes down to is this.
Airing your grievances amounts to nothing without action.
I should have...I wanted to, and I tryed to amount to nothing when it comes to the bottom line on reality.

They are words that have nothing propping them up.

If you want back what they took , or what yuou felt they took, then demand it.
No one will do this for you because you complained.

Not trying to be harsh, just pointing out that life is filled with bitter reality.
Better to save face.

Wu De dictates that what you are doing will make all of it look bad, including you.

Better to cross hands, or "taste bitter" and move on.

peace

[Johnny Hot Shot]

Find a good school train hard and go back to kick your lame @ss instructors @ss.:D

F U K the DaliShamScammer....

[Nexus]

Do whatever you feel is the right thing to do. Consider that one day you will be a true master of a martial art, and what advice would you as that master give you as "who are you are now."

[Gargoyle again]

Yeah, my sympathies :(

My girlfriend also got sucked into a Temple Kung Fu school here in Seattle. She was completely sold by the high-pressure marketing into believing that it was the ultimate real thing, fortunately at the time she was a poor starving college student and simply couldn't sacrifice for the outragous fees (belt fees, sparring fees, extra "clubs" and events, etc). Upon leaving and working out at a couple of other schools she saw the light fortunately.

Every week my driving takes me past both a Temple KF and a Chung Moo school, that I see filled with people working out :( :( :( Very sad. I support MA fully, but I can't support innocents being taken for a swindle.

There was also a huge Aikido McDojo here that was running the same fee scams and brainwashing. Happily they've since gone out of business. The beauty of the internet today is that hopefully thru communication, message boards, community, etc crap pyramid-scheme schools like Temple and Chung Moo will go the way of the dinosaur.

[Fu-Pow]

Kung Lek, good response.

I'd say that in my opinion he should either challenge the instructor , proving that there kung fu is worthless. Or just let it go. Chalk it up as a learning experience.

There is old saying :

Overtrustfulness harms the heart.

Perhaps next time he will be more skeptical before committing himself so much financially.

Getting into a protracted legal battle with these shady characters in the end will rob you of more than you gain.

Kicking someone's ass would make you feel a lot better and would prove that their kung fu is a fraud. But first you would have to learn kung fu from a real master and I think by that time you would have no anger left in you.

Just some thoughts.

[yenhoi]

Dont sue them, many have stated that this will be MUCH more trouble then its worth.

Learn real kung fu and go back and beat up everyone you see.

Or form a hardcore kung-fu posse and go burn the place down, im down - this includes beating everyone up that you see.

[reemul]

1. don't look to China, you are more likely to find Shoalin outside of China.

2. don't expect a schools history to be laid at your feet in great detail.

3. they won't try to sell the system to you. (As I have said before Shaolin did not come here to pimp there art).

4. It can be a long frustating search for a beginer who has no concept of Shaolin kungfu.

[firepalm]

Challenges to fight; Challenging them (Temple KF) could open you up to possible charges of assault... in the real world. As well it doesn't necessarily prove their stuff as legit or not, can every old boxing coach go toe to toe with their best fighters. The instructor you challenge might simply be a good fighter (perhaps bigger or stronger then you), and have nothing to do with his martial art. If ability to fight was sole prerequisite then every good street fighter could well open a martial arts school and be able to claim whatever they like...

Court; Temple is the lowest of the McKwoon / McDojo sort & money is what matters most to them. What really hurts them is hitting them in the bank account. As well having their names dragged through court is also a likely undesireable possibility for them. You are not questioning their claim to the Shaolin name, previous posting is correct that it is a hard one to prove. However you signed on as they sold on the 'only westerner to have trained in Shaolin'. As mentioned it is matter of 'court record' that Simon in fact did not train in China or with any monks... therefore you have a valid claim of false advertising/being sold goods under false pretenses. Again call the Better Business bureau. Just my thoughts...

Challenge them to a fight if you wish but be prepared to in the end having to hire lawyers anyways when these guys probably call the police and try to press charges. Simon & his Temple KF don't operate by any true code of 'Wude' they are merely frauds involved in the business of ripping off people...

Just my thoughts.

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

i'm for vandalizing the place.

i'm a poor family man, but if you can buy me a ticket i'm there.

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

of course i'll only actually throw wet toilet paper at the place after you spent all the money on the plane ticket, but you ought to be used to it by now.

:D

i really do wish i could make it up there though. i'm all about some bricks and fire.

[KungFuGuy!]

Tempting offer GDA, unfortunately they are located underground so the only thing we could vandalize would be the harveys above it ^^
Thanks for the advice, it seems like going to court is a bad idea. My best bet is to go to the BBB I guess.

[Reappah-X]

Don't even bother with that scum, just walk away and never look back, but don't forget the lesson you learned...

At least now you know what a bad school is like, maybe it will help you in finding a good school in the future : )

Due to the high volume of BS schools out there its really easy for someone new to get suckered in, but just as in life, you live and learn so just never make the same mistake again.

Reap

[Shaolindynasty]

Hey hold on. A small claims court isn't a bad idea. It usually costs under $100 to file. A sueing in small claims court isn't the big "legal battle" people are making it out to be. Trust me people go to court for far less than $4000, your amount is definatly worth it. This is in USA though and I don't know what you backwards folk do up there. :D


Don't get greedy though, leave the "mental suffering" stuff at the door. Judges usually don't honor that unless it is really serious like injuries etc. He claimed to be "the only shaolin taught westerner right"? I would push the point that he wasn't trained there not that there are other westerners that have trained there. He can claim ignorance to that. What he did was false advertising and he should pay the consequences, someone else said hurt his pocket book. I fully agree with that, if you beat him up or vandalized his school he have you arrested and will be taking you to court.



Somebody above said "avoid schools that say shaolin"
This could be a mistake since you might miss out on somthing good. I'd say be weary of them, it it looks like kempo it probally is. I am more for educating yourself before picking a school. Shaolin is a general word, research some of the better known schools and try to get all the different veiwpoints you can. The more extradordenary the claim the more possibility it's not true. If they use alot of "mystical" words they are probally Kungfu TV series hippies. For instance celestial grand master, I have never heard any real kungfu school use a term like that. Picking a Shaolin school is tricky, the key is to stay open to the variations but still know what "shaolin looks like". Shaolin does not look like kempo.

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

normally i would say that letting it go is the best advice, and it still might be, but we're talkin 4k here.

and that's not even 4k spent over years of getting scammed, but pretty much all at once.

[KungFuGuy!]

Well they are a business, so they are probably prepared for things like this. I wouldn't be surprised if I signed something along the way that said I wouldn't sue. I skimmed over everything they made me sign, so I could have missed it.

As for finding a new school, I've been talking to a jeet kune do instructor who is opening a school in february. He seems legit, and when I made a thread asking for people to give their opinion on him, the people who posted on it gave their thumbs up, so I'm going to check it out. Plus, it's very inexpensive :D I'm interested in traditional kung fu as much as in JKD, but there is no other place in my area.

[Shaolindynasty]

WTF!!!! I just read some moe of that site. No offense but you must have had absoulutly 0% knowledge of any kungfu to be taken in by that! Those guys are definate frauds with a emphasis on the cult part of it. I take some sort of action against them if I was you. Yet you should feel partly responsible for getting ripped off cause I think a single issue of a martial arts magazine would be enough to educate yourself against the kind of crap they push.

[KungFuGuy!]

I didn't post this to be cricitized, I know that I was a fool to believe them, I already said that.

[Shaolindynasty]

I'm not trying to insult you. I was just pointing out how easily someone with no knowledge of kungfu can be taken advantage of. Also how people look back on how little they knew and wonder how they got taken in by people like this. I still think WTF when I see sites like this. I wonder if the inter net helps or hurts people like this. On one hand people have more access to knowledge but on the other hand the "knowlegde" could come from places like this and they can also reach more people than before. I wonder who the internet benifits more the frauds or their potential victums?

[joedoe]

And don't forget, a beginner in the martial arts is not going to know what is or isn't legit.

[KungFuGuy!]

The funny thing is I thought temple kung fu was fake in the first place. I had heard about certain kung fu places not really being kung fu, and kung fu was just a word to describe "skilled" so at that point I thought any place with the name "kung fu" was stupid. I had respect for chinese martial arts though, just not the ones that called themselves kung fu. Then a friend told me how awesome temple kung fu is, and told me all these great things. Turns out he's friends with one of the instructors, which is where he got all the BS from.

[Shaolindynasty]

Yea I guess I could see how you'd end up in this position if you take the advice of a friend. I have had alot of friends in martial arts and they usually try to sell me on somthing else. Usually it's cause they are thinking about going or they want to have someone tell them what it's like first. Everytime somebody I know wants to go check out one of the local schools they come get me and make me go with them.

[Fu-Pow]

Hey hold on. A small claims court isn't a bad idea. It usually costs under $100 to file.

The problem is not him suing them, it's them suing him. If he sues them whats to prevent them from turning around and filing some B.S. lawsuit against him? That would require that he get's a lawyer which costs bank. And in our country you are not required to pay the other sides attorney fees if you lose. I just wouldn't go down that route. Temple kung fu is a business/organization and their pockets and resources are deeper than his. If it is just money let it go. If it were some on going thing where they were harassing him or extorting money from him that would be different. But this guy got suckered pure and simple. As someone said he should just turn around and don't look back. Its an expensive lesson but sometimes the ones we remember the most are that way.

If the same thing happened to me I'd be furious. But its easier to see things clearly when you have no vested interest. I think that's why he came to this message board initially.

[wangsizhong]

i had mentioned another kung fu place between hamilton and stoney creek. can't vouch for the quality so i'm not technically recomending it, but i got some info. today.

its Neworld (sic) Martial Arts Center 1147 main st. east
its owned by a guy who's in the real estate business

they offer: Wing Chun, Tai Chi, Xing-yi, Pakua Chang, Chi Kung
as well as: karate, goju-ryu, kobudo, aero kick box

i used the spelling from the schedule i got. they train wing chung tue., thurs., open class on saturday

no sparring, no san shou, no real contact stuff

they do chi sau, standing qi gong
claims to have (i didn't see past the front room) a bagua room, a bunch of wooden dummies

they allow a free trial day, forgot to ask prices

apparently one of the guys trained the class in kickboxing for a month and a half to get experience fighting different styles

owner said he'd rather have a health club that taught kung fu than a really violent punch in the head kind of place

again, no guarantees but i was surprised they had bagua, xing yi, and wing chun
the owner mentioned some stuff on the west end (a wushu club and a guy who does hung gar)

the owner put over the guy that trains wing chun as the best in the area and the best he'd ever seen. you never know, might be worth checking out

Wang Si Zhong

[KungFuGuy!]

Sounds interesting :)
I definately want to check out the jeet kune do thing first, but thanks for the tip.

[jun_erh]

**** those mother****ers. Still, unless you can get both Gene and kung Lek in on it, there is rather a lot of evidence on this thread that could be used against you, were we to go **** with them, though I admit my mouth is watering at the prospect. You should go on that show "The People's Court" I'm Serious!! You could get The KFO guys to help you out, like get a real Shaolin monk to testify!!! That would be funny:D Sorry to hear about that **** man, again, **** those mother****ers and I wouldn't be surprised if they were mafiosi

[BAI HE]

Not sure how Canada works legally eh?

_ Contact your version of the Attorney General.

- Contact ant department of Consumer affairs?safety

- And any sort of better business bureau.

- Contact any local papers and talk to them about your experience with this dump. Help others by sounding the horn.

[David Jamieson]

not to mention... you signed a waiver and a release when you joined didn't you?

Best to move on, keep learning, train and become that which you want to be.

peace

[firepalm]

Let's say someone went to a car lot... bought a car that was 'advertised' as being a high performance turbo whatever. Now most people don't know their way under the hood of the car... so they bought it in good faith that it was what it was 'advertised'. When they foundout contrary, should they not take action to right the wrong. They would in fact have grounds to do so. So is the case here, he was sold a product under false pretenses.

As to countersuing & deeper pockets. To countersue they have to have grounds to do so, what would their grounds be for countersuing. As to them having deeper pockets all the more reason to sue, KFguy was ripped off of his hard earned money. Personally I think if KFguy went about it in the right way he might get his money back just because the last thing a 'fraud' usually wants is to end up in court.

KFguy, small claims court is not that difficult to do if you value your money & time pursue or just be a 'patsy' and let them get away with ripping you off.

As to the contract you have the right to ask them to give you a copy of it, if you haven't already told them of your dissatisfaction then just tell them you're reconsidering signing back up (took you more time to save money or something like that).

Finally there are lawyers that will work on strictly 'fee' paid (usually in the neighbourhood of ten to twenty five per cent) after court settlement.

Don't be a 'patsy', hurt them where it will bother them most in the pocket book.

[Sam Wiley]

I'd say that you should at least consult an attorney on the matter, and present them with whatever evidence you have of your claims and their fraud, and see what the attorney says. Only someone like an attorney could tell you whether or not you have a case. If you do, sue the Hell out of them.

But I would also recommend that you count on having to simply eat bitter. In that case, I would put together whatever evidence you have against them and spread the word so that people know they are frauds.

[anton]

Yeah I still say a claim Small Claims court, and a complaint to whatever consumer affairs body handles false advertising in your country.

As for gongfu schools that write Shaolin kungfu on their windows. I would say its not a problem as many of the styles can trace their roots back to Shaolin (we had a small sign that said Shaolin temple boxing outside the Buck Sing CLF school I went to). Just as long as they don't claim that they teach original Sholin gongfu or calim to have actually trained there!

[Water Dragon]

The best lesson I ever learned was how to differentiate between solid CMA training and $hit.

Congratulations KungFuGuy, you have just finished paying your dues. Welcome to the club!!!

[anerlich]

I might be worth your while to seek out other unfortunates who have also been burned. You might be able to do more as a group than alone.

Post your experiences on other forums, rec.m-a, etc. Word of mouth is the best advertising (or the reverse) IMHO.

If you can get a like-minded group together, a (lawyer-checked) website detailing your experiences and warning others isn't a bad idea.

[Shaolindynasty]

On counter claims- Here's what my lawyer told me. "Anybody can sue anybody for anything but inorder for them to win they need a case". What grounds would Temple kungfu have to sue you? From what I can see none. Whatever contract you signed would be void if you were duped into signing it. Also I highly doubt there was anything in that contract about not sueing them for making fraudulent claims and if there was I would hope the judge would be reasonable to use that as a mark against temple kungfu in his descion(most are that reasonable). To many people on these boards fear the law but in this case the law is with you not against you. I like the car analogy above, you bought a product that was not what you were told it was and you should get your money back. The gave up the option to "keep it martial" or any other non business approach when they had you sign contracts and took your money. I say get your money back, I would.


p.s. Consult a lawyer for legal advise this is usually inexpensive to. My lawyer only charges $60, compared to what you lost it is definatly wotrth it. The whole thing would probally cost under $200 and you'd probally get your money back. I'd take that chance.

[Fu-Pow]

Yeah, it might be a good idea to consult a lawyer. But I personally don't think you have much of case. How are gonna prove that Simon didn't study with a Shaolin monk at some point? Now, as someone mentioned you might have more of case if it was a class action suit.

All I'm saying is that this is going to take a lot of time, money and sweat on your part. Is is worth 4000 dollars, that's the real question? Consulting an attorney is a first step. Unfortunately, in the U.S., if you want a good attorney, that consultation is gonna cost you. You might be able to find an attorney that will take the case on contingency, but they usually only do this if it is a strong case.

Firepalm-

The car analogy is full of holes. A car is a tangible object and there are a lot of laws written about cars. Martial arts training is an intangible thing and very subjective. If you don't believe me look at the history of MA's. It's a nightmare. No one can even define Shaolin for Christ's sake.


Peace

And I hope whatever you choose it works out for the best.

[firepalm]

Simon has already been to court in Canada once over this. Someone had previously posted the court transcripts on this forum, in which he states that he did not in fact study at the Shaolin temple with any monks and had never been to China. The evidence is a matter of court record.

I fully agree that Shaolin is a hard thing to define but that is not my point. Nor is MA history, it's a simple matter of a product sold under false pretenses, see the following;

Simon, as KFguy said, sold him a very costly membership on the story of Simon being the only westerner to study in Shaolin with the monks. Simon has pushed that propaganda on many unknowing customers. This is where KFguys case lies; Simon sold him a product - lessons from a Master that learned AT Shaolin from monks (high performance turbo whatever), when in fact Simon does not possess those credentials. Again as a matter of court record Simon has never been to the Shaolin temple nor learned from any Shaolin monks.

$4000 vs a nominal consultation fee (if any) is certainly worth it.

[KungFuGuy!]

I just realized something. The propaganda of simon being trained with the monks isn't documented anywhere, it's something the instructors tell you. Considering my case would mostly be based on this, there's no proof of any claims of him training there, it was just word of mouth from instructors. I don't know any student who would testify against their beloved temple kung fu, so getting witnesses to back me up would be hard. I've only told one person what I found out, and he chose not to believe me. There is this code of conduct in the change room that have a couple of rediculous rules. First of all, they don't allow you to cross train anywhere while at temple kung fu. Secondly, and this is the kicker; "Temple Kung Fu has a great reputation in this country, so naturally we will attract the attention of jealous schools, who send students in to sabotage temple kung fu, and say slanderous and untrue things about this school and it's founder. It is your job as a kung fu club member to find these infiltrators and report them to an instructor". Due to that 2nd rule, I thought I'd be kicked out the next day for confiding in that other student :) "Luckily" he didn't report me.
I did sign a waiver, and probably a release, so I'm sure that'll come back to bite me in the @ss.
I don't think I have a case here. JFspringer is a lawyer, maybe he can give me his advice.

[Fu-Pow]

Simon has already been to court in Canada once over this. Someone had previously posted the court transcripts on this forum, in which he states that he did not in fact study at the Shaolin temple with any monks and had never been to China.


That's a good point. He may be able to use that in court. That would definitely make his case stronger. Perhaps consulting a attorney would be a good idea.

[firepalm]

Waiver & releases are usually stating that you understand there is an inheritent risk in the activity and that you will not hold the instructors or company responsible for any injury you might sustain. Not that they can con you. Don't be a 'patsy'.

Cons & frauds like to stay out of court, just letting em know you're pursuing this through legal channels you might have a chance of getting your money back (at least in part).

Listen KFguy while I've got your attention might you be interested in buying a bridge? ;)

Just funning ya!

[firepalm]

If said instructor that told you the line is willing to lie in court you might not have a case, in which case get a buddy to go into Simon's with a hidden recorder acting as a potential sign up. Record the pitch and then you have your evidence.

I just really hate Simon's they are so full of sh*t!;)

[firepalm]

Triads,
Hire some from Toronto to collect on the monies. I was in an office years ago in Hong Kong, the owner of the company had an outstanding debt to another businessman, who hired a Triad collection agency. Nothing more intimidating then being in an office when a dozen very unfriendly nasty looking Asian guys walk in demanding money or they will start taking apart the office.

Second thought just stick to conventional within the law approach. KFguy, given any thought to that bridge? ;)

[KungFuGuy!]

Hey, why don't I just hire the mafia instead. Better get, a biker gang. The hell's angels were in the neighborhood recently, maybe I'll look them up ;)
As for that bridge, there is an overly large puddle in my backyard, but I don't think it's bridge-worthy. I'll have to pass ^^

[grogan]

"His Holiness the Dalai Seng Shih" when someone calls himself this it's time to ask yourself in a years time will I be inside a compound waiting for the ATF to come knocking? While his Holiness is off to Brazil on his 40 ft yacht!

[KungFuGuy!]

Hmm, that's the 2nd person who said I was there for a year. I was only there 6 months, where did you guys get a year from?

[joedoe]

Holy fu(king sh!t - $4K in 6 months? Man, I would be really pi55ed off. Sue their ar5es, destroy their property, whatever. $4K in 6 months is criminal.

[KungFuGuy!]

Well it did cover 3 years but still, I agree that it is an outrageous amount of money to pay up front like that.

[Majic Sam]

I seriously despise Rev. Simon and his faygot cult cronies.They will dupe unsuspecting students in a second.You messed up,you admit it.Still,pursue them to all four corners of the globe until you feel the crush of their skulls beneath your feet,hear the lamentations of their wenches(that is ,if they aren't a "men's club only"),and get back the loot!It's worth a try.

ALL of his cattle are complete Mc Kwoon wankers,and I'm not suprised to hear about the locker romo paranoia.Sound like a bunch of speed freaks.Shut up!Drink the Kool-Aid!Fokin' disgusting,man!

[Serpent]

Get someone unknown to them in there with a hidden camera and mic. Get the whole sell thing for a prospective new student. Then get that student to go along to a few classes, get all the change room stuff and everything you can on tape. Then go public with the whole story and discredit the sh it out of him. You must have those current affairs progrmas over there right? Like The Cook Report in the UK, A Current Affair in Australia, etc. Get as public as you can, bring him into the public eye as a conman, fraudulent baastard.

And, just to be safe, on the last day of infiltration, dump a couple of firebombs on your way out - that's for personal revenge! ;)

[relaxed]

Man, for a MA forum I can't believe the stuff Im reading regarding replies and solutions!

Firebombing? Attacking whoever? Triads(heeeee)?

You guys are a little to short triggered to have been training in most any art for any reasonable amount of time. Kung Fu guy, you payed 4K for three years or so? Thats not that horrible for anyone in a decent school - that is one that isn't a part-time community centre run org.

If you're not happy try the BBB like some of these smarter guys suggest, or even legal aid, but don't take it to the street, thats just B..Sh..!!! The only reason to use your art is in defense. Make sure your problems are with the school and not just some yokel instructor or mis-informed student or friend.

Good Luck.

Peace

[DelicateSound]

Relaxed: It wasn't a good school, we're not all as pacifist as you, and not everyone studies MA's for defense [I do though]

I agree with your principles, but not everyone is the same, esp. not when concerning morals.

Nice if you can think that way though.

[neito]

I had a similar experience with those temple kung-fu *******s, luckily after 45 minutes of them trying to convince me to join they let me go. If you want to hear what happened to me read my post in the "Hall of Shame" thread. My experience was with the
Temple Kung Fu location in Edmonton. Was your Temple kung fu in Edmonton too, If so I would be more than willing to testify if you sue. I feel sorry for you, and dont want that kind of garbage to happen again. Also if you need evidence against their false advertising check in the YELLOW PAGES where they will have probably listed their phone number under several false names to draw more customers (eg. world kung fu federation, National Kempo Association). I also happen to know that O.E. Simon who is their "grandmaster" has been sued on several occasions in the 70's and 80's, unfortunatly i'm not sure if these attempts were successful. They are a member of the "better business bureau" in Edmonton, but I have no Idea what that entails. If I can be of any help to you dont be afraid to ask, and I may be able to give you a hand. - GOOD LUCK- FIGHT THE GOOD FIGHT!-:mad:

[jon]

"Get someone unknown to them in there with a hidden camera and mic."
-Thats actualy a VERY good idea of Serpents and i would be using that as my first step.

I gotta say someone really should just go down there and put them out of buisness. Its not hard you just rock up to a class and start speaking loadly about what crap there teaching, when the instructor kicks up a stink keep informing his students of what a poor instructor he is and how he cant fight his way out of a wet paper bag. If he finaly snaps and hits you, take him appart infront of everyone. If he doesnt budge he just looks like a coward.
Obviously though either you or someone you know needs to understand how to fight well.
The main thing is let his students know its crap, there is no law against telling em ALL!
I would be printing out flyers and standing out the front of class handing them out.
Seriously schools like this didnt used to happen becouse people from other properly respected schools would take it upon themselfs to shut them down! Its not slack or mean its quality control.
People used to just walk into the class with flyers from there own schools, if the instructor felt insulted he had to do something to stop them.
Im not saying you should do this yourself as your obviously a beguiner but thats beyond a joke!
And if all else fails there is nothing like an annonymous call to the police claiming you have been sexualy molestered by them during one of the secret practice sessions:D Ring church services and claim there trying to warp kids minds to satan. You could have a whole host of fun dobbing them in secret for various rediculous crimes they havent even commited. Say you have seen naked pictures of children in there, claim they exchange movements for sexual favors. Come on its so easy to distroy a reputation, by the time they finish explaining it all the damage will already be done.
Just pick a public phone and put on the voice of scarred little boy named 'Timmy' they wont ever know what hit them.

[rubthebuddha]

so much for wu de.

basically, you're saying that we should abandon all the good things about martial arts we feel are threatened by a ****hole bunch of people just so we can rid ourselves of those people?

so why don't we just go back to the old days of "quality control" and have our sifu beat up their sifu? because it's illegal. so instead, we call the cops in on some trumped up charge to get them? sorry to burst your bubble, but that's also just as illegal.

the difference? it's easy to find out who beat the snot out of someone in cases like that. however, it's more difficult for the police to find out who faked a phone call of sexual misconduct. i guess that makes it all better in some people's books.

[jon]

lol dont take me so seriously, i was just venting anger. I realise such things are not viable it was just a bit of fun.
Still ya gotta admit it would be nice to go down and ruin the buggers for good.

[rubthebuddha]

not arguing with you. there's a certain satisfaction to be gained, especialy by KFguy, to be found by putting them on a spit and watching 'em roast.

however, i'll relate something my sisok tells me every time we get caught up in crap like this:

if we have time to worry about it, we're not spending enough time training.

or, another of his faves ...

the best way to distance yourself from the garbage in the martial art world, like in the rest of the world, is to be the best martial artist you can be.

basically, let the pigs thrive in their slop. it serves little purpose trying to convince a pig that the slop and crap they love so much isn't good. so let them have their slop for breakfast. i'll treat you to some good dim sum instead.

anyone wanna bring some oatcakes?

[Mr.Sleazy]

I know this thread is ancient but just wanted to add some additional info re Temple. I started out training there as a beginner at one of the Vancouver studios in early January. Not knowing anything about Martial Arts I went to the school because they were friendly and because there was 1 on 1 instruction included in the lessons. As a total beginner you just don't have any knowledge to understand what is good or bad.

I started out and learned some stuff, some of it was OK some of it I was very skeptical of but overall I didn't know any better so I trained pretty hard. After a month or so they invited me to join the "Kung Fu Club", which was going to cost over $3,000 and last me for 3 years. I said no that I just couldn't afford to do that. When they realized that I would not be their sucker they told me that I would not be allowed to continue training past the orange belt level.

At this point I really started to wonder about their school and did some serious internet research (which I wish I had done before I signed up for the intro stuff), which led me to this forum. Big thanks to KungFuGuy! I have to thank you for putting your own experiences out there because it helped me realize that I was getting the bum rush too, so I broke with the school without joining their stupid club and told the chief instructor that I thought it was a big scam. BTW they never told me old GM Simon had trained at Shaolin I wouldn't have known what the hell they were talking about anyways. Firepalm and neito you also put some very good info on here re Temple so thanks to you all. It is sad that people get away with that stuff, it can give all MA a pretty bad name.

Anyways I am now training at a mixed muay thai / submission wrestling school which I am pretty happy about and am certain I am not getting scammed. In addition I am also considering action against Temple to try to get back the money I already spent there. There are 2 options.

One is the Better Business Bureau. Temple Kung Fu is a member and according to the Vancouver and Edmonton branches has not had a complaint lodged against them. Lodging a complaint with the BBB is easy, there is an online form to fill out. The BBB can only institute non-binding arbitration, but if you do lodge a complait then that is put on the company's permanent record. Go check out their website, though I checked the Hamilton area one it is not working right now.

Small claims court is also a viable option. There is lots of information on the CBC website about small claims court, basically it is for claims of less than $10,000 and complainants mainly represent themselves. The website states that many complainants win their case simply because the defendant does not show up.

Please contact me off-forum if you wish more info. Maybe we can share details. And yes I am serious about it.

[Serpent]

Be careful of Small Claims Court, because you can be sure that Temple will show up with a lawyer.

The BBB sounds like a goer. Why don't you try to gather a group of you guys that have been stung (there's a bunch of you on here it seems) and organise some sort of group class action, starting at the BBB?

The weight of numbers would definitely help.

Just a suggestion.

[Mr.Sleazy]

Hey KungFuGuy! here is some more info for you this link is a guide to small claims court

http://www.cbc.ca/consumers/consumertips/tips_smallclaims.html

Check it out if you wish, and get in touch if you go anywhere with it.

[Sharky]

Fu.ck em up with a baseball bat. Make sure they know it's you, but can't prove it.

[Sharky]

Fu.ckin up the kwoon, that would be a nice touch too.

[dre]

Go learn some wild style (eagle claw, Mantis, Tiger) the go up there and rip everybody to pieces.

[rubthebuddha]

the BBB is the best bet, because after a while, people get wind of things. tkf has a bad rep here on this forum because people have spoken out about them. do it in a more publicly important place like the BBB, and they're sure to eat hot **** because of it.

[vingtsunstudent]

has anyone really read that website, he's a very funny man.
why bother with martial arts when he could be making a killing out of comedy.
one of my favs was the guy who is an apprentice master.
all hail the canadian sienfeld.
vts

[Colin]

It's weird but....I'm totally with Sharky on this one.

Get a couple of lads with you, and go down there.
Bust up their kneecaps, and tell 'em straight what will happen if they say anything.
(Just tell them the story of the pig farm!)

Have you ever seen someone REALLY frightened?

Now I know some of you here will say i'm wrong, but i'm sorry this crap like temple kungfu and similar must be stopped.

If you people in Canada really want to stop temple kung fu, you could easily!

I think alot of people like having sh!t like this group around, it makes you feel better about what you are learning.

C............

[Sharky]

Colin rules.

[dezhen2001]

Lucky Temple Kung Fu isn't in the UK then right? I'm sure a few people would be more than happy to help out... :)

david

[Kristoffer]

do the hidden camera trick and make a documentrary on the crap. air it here online so I can have a good laugh. Then beat Simon to a bloody pulp. And yeah, I like that bat idea too.

[dezhen2001]

simple and direct anyway (a sound martial arts principle) :)

david

[Mr.Sleazy]

Hey KungFuGuy! I resurrected this thread hoping for a response where have you gone?

As to some of the above posts, if you want your money back small claims may very well be a good option but make sure to be well organised. If TKF hires a lawyer then better for you, because legal fees are not recoverable in small claims. That means that even if you lose your case, TKF still has to pay their lawyer out of their own pocket not yours. A bit of sweet financial revenge.

[PHILBERT]

Over at the Bad Budo section on E-budo.com, we are discussing Temple Kung Fu. One of the members, M.C. Busman, asked me a question and I thought I would ask you.


Originally posted by M.C. Busman
Several people on the KFO forum mentioned that Simon had to admit not studying at Shaolin during a court proceeding in Canada.

Does anyone have a transcript, docket number, or approximate date and court? I'd like to have an original source if possible.

Take Care!

M.C. Busman
mc_busman@Bigmailbox.net

Do you by chance know an answer to that?

[KungFuGuy!]

I'm glad my thread helped you in realizing the truth sleazy. I haven't replied to (or even looked at) this thread again because I want to forget about temple mc fu. Whenever I think about it, I just end up thinking of all the money and time I wasted and it just ruins my day. I know some of you may think 4k isn't enough to get THAT worked up over, but when you're 18 and make $6.85 an hour, it really is. I worked 2 jobs day and night last summer to pay it off and I'm still paying off a loan. I just want to forget about it and try to get on with my life.
I talked to a lawyer and even a couple people who have tried to pursue legal action against them, and they all said it's pointless. The lawyer said I had no case, and the former students said they were able to cover for themselves. I guess there really is something about it in one of the many long and fine print filled papers they make us sign.

[Mr.Sleazy]

I understand your attitude at some point I will like to forget too, so I won't bug you anymore with it. As for myself I am still pretty fired up and am serious re legal action. I have kept every bit of paper and made detailed notes re my conversations with those KungFoolies re school contracts etc. A friend of mine mentioned in passing that contracts for sports or memberships that last for over a year are illegal so I am researching that right now. I will post a few updates every now and then for the edification of all.

And seriously KFGuy! or anyone else who has had problems with the Temple KungFoolies and wants to take action pls email me and I will share all the research I have.

As to my new school it kicks ass, I am having to un-learn a few things I was taught at TKF especially the whole "hands at chamber" thing. We do full- and partial- contact sparring at my school and if you do the hands in chambers thing with someone trying to box your head let me tell you they will automatically either nail you in the face or grab you in a nasty Thai clinch!! For me TKF ended up being a month and a half worth of very expensive aerobics class.

[Mr.Sleazy]

OK here I am again talking to myself . KFGuy! here is a quote from British Columbia contract law you may find interesting. Contract law in Ontario may of course be different but you should at least research it because it is pertinent to your position. Don't give up without trying $4k is A LOT of money.

From http://www.qp.gov.bc.ca/statreg/stat/C/96069_01.htm#section10

"Maximum term and payment
20 (1) A contract for future services must not be for an amount in excess of the prescribed amount, exclusive of the cost of borrowing, or be for a term or period of time longer than 2 years after the date the contract was signed by the buyer.

(2) For the purpose of subsection (1), all contracts for future services that are in effect between the same seller and the same buyer at one and the same time, whether or not services are being supplied concurrently under 2 or more of them, are deemed to be one contract.

(3) If a contract does not comply with subsection (1), the buyer may recover all money paid under the contract as a simple contract debt.

Contracts expressed in hours
21 If a contract for future services provides that services are to be supplied by the seller by reference to a number of hours or a number of sessions, the seller must state in the contract the period of time in months over which the buyer can reasonably expect to receive the services." Endquote

Now I am no lawyer but I do understand English and what this means to me is that the Kung Fu Club contract (which they say is to the brown belt level and lasts 3-4 years) is not a legal contract, at least in BC. You say you have consulted a lawyer already but was it a serious consultation? And make sure you have a copy of your KF Club contract. Even if you have not kept a copy, the TempleKungFools are required to provide you with one. I would really love to see you get your money back I have total sympathy for you and no sympathy at all for the TempleFools.

Just saying to you dont give up!

[Roy D. Anthony]

I have a few students who were taken by all the hype as well. Here's a story for you. From its inception, before it became big, Simon was a yellow belt in Karate, who took a lot of Seminars. after all these seminars. he was teaching out in Edmonton or Calgary, not sure exactly where, then Simon returns to his then brown belts and says he's leaving. Brown belts say, you can't. Simon says why not?. Brown belts say cause we don't have our black belts yet. Simon Says, here's your certificates, there now you are Black Belts.
Black Belts go under the guidance of one person and opens a chain of schools in Toronto and surrounding areas. Simon opens in Vancouver, then moves to Toronto.
Stories say, the Karate movements made to look like Kung Fu, thus the Shaolin connection.
Just what I've heard.
Oh Well!!! hope this helps others not to be taken by these clubs.