daily horse

[Wu Wei]

From what I've learned, when building muscles it's better to take sufficient time to rest afterwards so your body has time to rebuild the tissue.

What I was wondering was, 'does this apply to horse stance training as well?'

I assume that the best way to build a strong horse stance is to do it daily, but I thought I should make sure.

And for the sake of people stuff to read, I suggest saying anything else helpful regarding horse stance.

For instance, I find it easier when timing horse stance, to use a clock with hands instead of a digital clock. Strange perhaps.

(beware the pretzel!!!)

[Prairie]

I'm far from being an expert, but here is my current level of understanding of horse stance training.

Horse stance training should be done everyday because it is more of a stretching exercise than a strength building exercise. The muscles will certainly gain endurance but it's the stretch in the hips that is the key. Like any stretching regimen, it should be done everyday.

Horse stance training is also good for making the mind stronger. We all know that holding a proper horse stance hurts like hell. It takes strength of will to overcome the pain.

Curving the lower back slightly such that the tailbone points a bit more forward helps steady you as you're increasingly able to acquire that square looking horse stance while maintaining a vertical, straight back.

Ok.... that's enough of my BS for now.

Oh... I just about forgot. I prefer timing the duration of a horse stance by an analog clock as well. However, my true favorite is to listen to some nasty heavy metal music and try for the duration of a song. Sabbath Bloody Sabbath is the best.

[scotty1]

My understanding of stretching is that you don't have to do it everyday. And I wouldn't say that horse is a stretching rather than a muscle building exercise. Personally I prefer to do it not everyday because of the strain it puts on your knees. But I suppose it depends on how much time you can hold it for, and the way you hold the stance.

Maybe the analogue clock helps psychologically because you are thinking "only another 20 seconds to go" rather than there being no end in sight.

Horse stance? Ouch.

[Kristoffer]

I do it when i brush my teeth in the morning. That is about 3 min.

[dezhen2001]

Horse stance is good training - something i should really get back into...For me, i remember asking my Sifu this same question.

have any of you guys read the post on Southern Kung Fu to do with 'high VS low stances'? There's some pretty imformative posts there.

I think stance training should be done every day, to develop the posture, mind and qi. I have found that it makes me feel very warm once i get past the discomfort stage and relax.

Also i find doing Siu Lum Tao a similar experience, when i do it for a long time.
just my thoughts,

david

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

everyday.

every single day.

every day until you want to quit kung fu alltogeather.

everyday.

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

it gets much easier after a month or two.

one of the breathing exercises i do can be done from pretty much any position, but is best from horse so i use this time as my stance training. the set takes anywhere from 10 to 20 minutes depending on whether i do half the set or the full set. i stand in a meidum stance most of the time and force myself to go lower if i start getting uncomfortable (which is very rare at this point).

immedietly after this i go into another breathing set without coming out of my stance to further work the legs. this set involves allot of going down to thighs parallel, holding, rising back to medium, and then back down again. all of this is done very slowly and the first couple times i did the sets back to back i thought i was going to cry. it took me about a month of this befoe i could stand in a medium horse stance forever. also when i say medium i don't mean knees slightly bent, but with thighs less than 45 degrees to the floor but not quite 180 degrees.

what i have found from this is that it's much easier to maintain your horse stance if you are doing something else allong with it. doing the sets forces me to focus on my center more than i think i'd be able to do otherwise. i think focusing on your center is key to relaxing and setteling into the stance at least for myself. if i start thinking about my legs being tired they want to tense up making it impossible.

my advice would be to do it every day and start giving yourself a regimin of so many punches or blocks to complete rather than watching a clock.

also make sure that you are really rooting with every single technique you dowhen sparring, flowing, practicing individual techniques, etc. no matter how tired your legs are always sink into the ground to give every punch, bock, even kick a stable base to work with.

if you didn't need advice but was just wondering if it could be over trained my answer would obviously be no. i think it can only be undertrained.

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

now i have a question.

does anyone think there is any advantage to doing nothing in the horse stance vs. giving yourself something else to focus on?

i don't really see how there could be, but i am dumb so who knows.

[Braden]

If you're doing a low and/or tense horse stance to build muscle, you should not do it more than every second day. If you're doing stance training to build connectivity and relaxation, I think six days a week is best.

GDA - Even though we're 'just standing there,' in my horse stance training, there is an awful lot going on. It's definitely a whole body and mind exercise. It's alot easier to do if you neglect all that stuff though, but on the other hand, I don't see the point in doing it just for strong legs.

[IronFist]

You know I just had a thought. If t-mag (Biotest) came up with a horse stance supplement, they would say "improves your horse stance time by 294742959832.288392874958%"

Iron

[Black Jack]

Horse stance training seems to be much more based on muscular endurance than physical strength.

Both are very different.

Muscular endurance would be like hindu squats, jumping squats, lunges, horse stance drills,

Physical strength whould be weights, all types of squats, weighted lunges, extensions, hamstring curls, calf raises.

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

"Even though we're 'just standing there,' in my horse stance training, there is an awful lot going on. It's definitely a whole body and mind exercise. It's alot easier to do if you neglect all that stuff though, but on the other hand, I don't see the point in doing it just for strong legs."

i agree. even if i don't understand all of it yet, i didn't mean to imply that there wasn't allot of internal work going on when just doing the stance.

my question still stands though, at least if doing chigung.

do you think that chigung that requires (or can be done in) a horse stance for the entire set is as good as motionless practice? or are they different means to different ends?

[fa_jing]

I've been doing reverse punches from the deep horse stance, thighs parallel to the floor, at least 200 at a time. It helps to time it, loosens the upper body and trains the chi. Also, you can see your progression. But now I'm switching off to more just holding the stance, varying the level, and holding my hands in different chi-gong positions. It allows me to relax more. It's almost like two different exercise that train mostly the same thing, from differnet angles. I think the vibration from the punching makes it slightly more difficult to hold the stance, but the difference is really very little. It's good to vary your training. But, I still want to be able to pop off at least 500 punches. I figure it will take me about 1 year more of horse training to be able to do so.
-FJ

[Braden]

"do you think that chigung that requires (or can be done in) a horse stance for the entire set is as good as motionless practice? or are they different means to different ends?"

I'm not sure what you mean by these two categories.

[fgxpanzerz]

Yor "muscular endurance" lasts as long as u have air in yor lungs. Yor muscles cant work without oxygen. U ever get punched in the solar plexus? Well, when I got hit my whole body collapsed. If "muscular endurance" really existed, my whole body wouldnt have collapsed when the air left my lungs and would've stayed upright by itself. But it didnt.

[Black Jack]

Wrong.

Their are two different types of muscle fibers, slow twitch and fast twitch which showcase the my point. Muscular endurance and muscular strength are very much two different animals when applied in isolated training regiments.

Oxgyen is one thing, your muscles giving out on you is another.

I know guys who can do hindu squats, jumping squats, lunges, aerboics and other non-weighted excersices intell they are blue in the face but these same guys can not lift half as much as the guy in the gym who just lifts weights and the guy who just lifts weights in the gym does not have the muscular endurance to last half as many endurance sets as the non-weight guy does.

You will gain some strength from endurance based workouts but not even close to what you can gain with direct weight training.

You need the best of both worlds to find a perfect fit.

[fgxpanzerz]

for the last time. yor talking about endurance. Meaning, the guys who do all the jumping but cant lift have a bigger oxygen capacity in their lungs. There's no such thing as "muscular endurance" because muscles have no endurance without the lungs!

[Black Jack]

for the last time squared,

Maybe if I called it aerobic endurance you would feel better but what you are stating still indicates a difference in the two types of well-known training regiments.

I am not a physical trainer but I believe knife fighter is and if he comes on here he can best give a educated viewpoint.

Muscular strength refers to power, the ability to produce force at a high intensity for a brief period of time. Muscular endurance refers to the ability to sustain energy over a long period of time or maintain a fixed contraction for longer.

These two terms are used throughout the physical health/weighlifting industry.

Out of these two descriptions, horse stance training is the latter.

Both types of training have been "noted" to produce different muscluar fibers, which for the last time would indicate different reactions to training, which would grant different attributes, endurance based training has shown a higher number of fiber composition and capillary fiberation where weight training/heavy load training has shown larger mean muscle fiber growth.

Of course their will be a interconnection between the two though,

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

braden .. .

catagory 1: you do moving chi gung (upper body only obvioulsy) while holding a horse stance for extended periods of time.

catagory 2: you simply hold the horse stance as chi gung in itself.

is there any benifit to type 2 over type 1?

[Ray Pina]

I have a question; I've done it, but what is it you are trying to gain by holding your horse stance for so long? Please don't tell me internal.

[Crimson Phoenix]

Internal!!
Oooppss...;)
Well, just some thoughts...I guess aside from the muscular benefits, your mind works a lot...first it buids your resistance to pain, it help you set your limits back...your real limits are always further than what you think, and by stance training you learn that your limits are created by you and are not your real ones...when you realize that in life too, it is when gong fu becomes a tool for evolution...another thing: while working stances, the intention work is very important: it's been scientifically proven that conscious thinking and mental imagery can drive neural growth and control, so by imagining a movement precisely, you simultaneously increase the innervations of muscles (therefore increasing strenght without having to increase muscle cells potential), and you improve the neural networks (benefits both for reaction, kinesic aspects etc...) for that movement.
I like that concept, I believe Chinses sensed it when they placed emphasis on intention so much, or on sense of the enemy during forms.
As for small and especially great circulation, hell man, you got to be totaly relaxed and comfortable for that, I would never try it into a horse stance...if you believe in Qi, the concept is easy: by holding the horse, part of the qi goes down, so you cannot circulate it through the upper gates (especially hard for the tricky gate)...on the other hand, if you concentrate more on the circulation, then the intention and qi won't go to the roots much...hence you'll lose time both for the stance training and the circulation training, so better not mix the two...at least that's what I have been taught and read...

[fa_jing]

You can't be talking about me, EvolutionFist, 'cause I can't hold a low horse longer than three minutes. BUT, I would like to be able to hold this stance at least 10 minutes. Why? Here are the reasons, in declining order of importance:

1. Increase functional muscular strength and endurance
2. Increase ligament and connective tissue strength and endurance
3. Improve ability to relax muscle groups, especially the hips
4. Develop Chi - through focus, effort of concentration, and most of all - through exercise!! Doing the horse is very similar to the squats I did in the Gym, back 5 years when I was weightlifting. Exercising your major muscle groups in this fashion increases your sense of vitality. It triggers muscle growth throughout the body--my understanding is that if you do only bicep curls, your bicep strength increase a certain amount, while if you do bicep curls, plus squat heavy, it triggers even more growth in the bicep, your whole body is in "grow" mode, which I am equating to increased chi. It's kinda like the difference between lifting heavy and working on the machines--with the machine, you never have that sense of "I'm going to collapse under this weight." The horse is similar, although you are not risking injury, you will fall if your legs give out. Additionally, I'd say that the horse helps you lead chi to your legs, this is something I feel. I even feel increase chi in the Dan Tien after horse practice, which manifests itself as a light tingling feeling.
5. Improve a functional stance for fighting purposes. Such as certain throws, or a lead body shot with the weight sinking.
6. Test of character, a challenge, if you will.
7. Warms up whole body for rest of training session

Need more reasons? I think you could easily substitute other training such as moving training to produce the same results, but I don't currently train a style that uses low stances, so I haven't focused on this. I know some Chi gong sets that involve low stances, but I guess I want to build up some raw strength first. I really should work more on my bow stance, etc. Doing the square horse is kinda mindless, I guess I'm mentally lazy.

-FJ

[fa_jing]

I thought small circulation was only through the upper body, but Great circle circulation was throught the whole body including the legs. Might be kind of tricky to pull off while in a horse stance, though: the examples I saw were just standing relaxed.

-FJ

[Ray Pina]

Good answers, good answers.

[Prairie]

Originally posted by EvolutionFist
I have a question; I've done it, but what is it you are trying to gain by holding your horse stance for so long? Please don't tell me internal.

I don't know if it helps the "internal" or not. In fact, many days I don't believe in "internal power" but rather body mechanics based jointly on a different set of muscles and a different way of joining all the muscle groups together.

It seems to me that an important part of training the above mentioned "internal" is to get the hips really able to turn. Horse stance training is one way to begin gaining the requisite hip flexibility.

The problem with holding a horse stance for a great period of time in a static manner is that it trains the joints and muscles to remain static. Clearly this is not good. Static horse stance is better for beginners. My teacher seems to prefers us to train "silk reeling" exercise and what we call "circles" Neither of these are static and also require great use of the hips.

I see the main value of horse stance to beginners is flexibility and muscular endurance. The main value to the non-beginner would be the mental aspect. One has to bend their mind around the fact that their legs are on fire and do it anyway. (although as mentioned - the long held static posture may be detrimental to body dynamics)

With that said, I'm a beginner and believe I draw both physical and mental benefit from horse stance training. I can just barely hold the static posture for 2 minutes. I guess it's training my mind too.

Also, I should add the usual disclaimer that errors in my understanding are strictly my own.

[Ray Pina]

I admit my question was king of a troll, I studied Isshin-Ryu karate for 14 or 15 years (horse stance is huge here) as well as Hung Gar.

I like the above answers, concerning more spirit and intention than actual combat. Why? Because I used to have my sensei kick my legs when in horse and they were strong, but to think I can take a Muy Tai kick like that, yes, maybe the foot will not move on the floor, but a bone between the foot and hit will be broken.

I am not sure about the rooting idea. We are not trees, we are not rooted into the ground. When I trained S. Mantis, get this, we were forbidden to step back. If you stepped back against a big guy you were forced to stand against the wall, and then start fighting. Makes ya tough, no dount, but....

Now, I am seeing the important of not fighting, let the other guy get his way, just beat the the $hit out of him as he gets (my master's words, or similiar affect). It's true. I am not the strongest guy in the world, even at 210lbs., there is force from guys 185 who can pack a wallop and I must give (change foot psoition, never collapse hand postion) and read where they are not strong.

I think over training the idea of rooting can lead to keeping your feet planted but then giving under heavy durass at the upper body, leading to leaning back and eventually breaking somehwere, getting bawld over.

BUT! The way the gentlemen above described it, they are just becoming better warriors, become strong mentaly while building strenght. Watch your knees though. I damaged my knees from such things. I used to have hold horse against a wall and then balance a 45lbs plate across my legs. Tough. Looking back, I don't think it really gave me any advantage in combat other than I know the other guy didn't do that ... and that's why I was going to win, because I did, and I knew I could accomplish anything.

Anyway, I trolled, and caught some good answers from good MA. Sorry, and thanks for the fun.

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

does that mean that you are only to remain rooted some of the time in your style?

[Braden]

fgxpanzerz - There is most certainly such a thing as muscular endurance. Consider the availability of various metabolites within a muscle body, and the concentration of cellular structures capable of using them. Consider vascularization of muscle to refresh various supplies. Yes, these things can be upgraded and downgraded based on your lifestyle as well as your genetics, which includes many things which fall under the category of basic western exercises.

BlackJack - I wouldn't equate muscle fiber types directly with muscular endurance, nor would I say there's a single measurable variable called 'muscular power.' Rather, the different fibers specialize in generating different sorts of power, but also have their own metabolic/endurance concerns. I'd agree with the gist of what you said though.

GDA - Aha, I see what you're saying. They are definitely different, and there's definitely alot of benefit to doing the stationary exercise (but it's not, in all regards 'better'). The specifics of the stationary exercise depends a little bit on what posture your arms are in, but generally speaking it is going to superior for learning relaxation and structure (aka internal connectivity, whatever). Energetically speaking, the basic stationary horse stance qigong is a very general qigong, but certainly an excellent and required foundation - in theory it basically gets the kinks out of your energetic system and primes it up so it's running real efficiently. The moving postures are obviously better for playing with the specific movements of your style (or jings if you like to throw around fancy words), as well as having more obvious martial potential. They're all an important step in working upon the foundation created in your stationary training, in that you've got to learn to maintain that relaxation and structure in movement. I wouldn't say they're anywhere as good at building the foundation though - complementary, but the stationary is definitely more important at a basic level. Energetically, the moving qigongs (well, it obviously depends, but if I'm assuming correctly what you're doing...), as well as various arm postures of stationary qigongs will focus more on working specific regions (eg. kidney specific qigongs) as well as specific 'energy gates' (eg. the various points along the spine). Mostly, if they're done from a horse stance and with normal breathing, they're still pretty general in the sense that they're trying to make the system healthy and work properly, as well as introduce your body to the idea of energetics, rather than being very specific, as qigongs can get (eg. specific for martial power, etc).

Anyway... that's what I've been told and how it seems from my practice. Hope that helps.

Evolutionfist - Holding horse - There is a very major requisite of relaxation (more people think they understand what relaxed is, but really don't), as well as some funny things we're doing with our entire bodies. In terms of martial arts, the 'point' is to learn to adopt these peculiar ways of standing for purposes of martial ability, as they allow some interesting and useful skills; as well as to condition the parts of the body required for these things. The breathing is also trained. At least that's an internalists perspective. I haven't the foggiest idea why anyone would do this for strong legs, endurance, martial tactic practice, or for some notion of courage; all of which can be trained in much better ways.

[Braden]

TTT for GDA

[Fu-Pow]

My two cents on stance training.

First, The goal of stance training is not only as a muscle building exercise.

The goal is really to not use muscle to hold yourself up. Or in other words to use the minimal amount of muscle.

This happens when you can relax in your stance. When your breath is relaxed and you take the focus of your mind off your legs.

You shouldn't be fighting against gravity, rather you should be thinking that the energy from the earth is holding you up.

Secondly, having a low stance is good to a point. What I mean is that you should not go below 90 degrees. This is a collapsed structure and you have effectively cut off the Chi to your legs.

Phyically speaking your knee joints become locked.

Thirdly, the hips/thighs should take on a rounded shape. This contains the energy and makes one more stable.


Fourthly, too much static training is not good. I'd say 5 min max for a static posture like horse stance. And maybe 15 min for a stance routine. Static postures will make you more rooted but it is also possible to become too rooted. This limits your mobility which is essential to combat.

Fifthly, do not bounce up and down in your training. If you feel the urge to come up, go down instead. If you are on your butt by the end of the session that is better than standing up and getting no benefit.