chi=?

[KC Elbows]

The discussion on the horse bench thread got me thinking about this. I'll try to be pretty specific in topic to avoid the type of riot that comes up whenever people start talking about whether there is such a thing as chi or not. Keep in mind that I will have to refer to my experiences, so if yours are different, just point out the differences, don't feel a need to attack.

OK. In chi sau(sticky hands), one develops sensitivity of the forearms and learns what different motions of the partner's body feel like from contact with their forearms. Nothing magical here, just learning to be aware of the feelings in the hands and arms.

Push hands, similar thing, except more whole body.

Chi kung, practice a while, and the feeling throughout your body(depending on the chi kung exercise) becomes focused, so that you become aware of the sensations throughout your body, much the same way that you pay attention to your finger when you get a splinter.

Certain chi kung exercises do this in a way that focuses on developing specific alignments from one part of the body to the next.


All of these things are perfectly in fitting with modern science. The point could even be made that such sensitivities are always there, and you are just paying attention to them at that moment, but that's another discussion.

Anyway, without discussing meridians, or more in depth looks at traditional chinese medicine, is there anything to be viewed as exceptional or mystical about the results of these practices?

I don't think there is. I think part of the difficulty in discussing chi and traditional chinese medicine is that it gets shrouded in less researched details. Sensitivity is not a controversial thing, so that's not the problem many have with chi theories.

Is it possible that the traditional eastern doctor does know that hitting this point/eating this way/living this way will damage you, and that by hitting certain points it can be offset, but he doesn't really know why, and says "Your blood is stagnant" because that is what he was taught?

OK, I failed to be specific or brief, but respond how you like. Just remember, those of you who say chi is bull and attack the traditional guys are being way too yang, and so are the traditional guys who flame back. I'm just warning you. For the sake of your meridians, let's keep this civil.

[Ray Pina]

Great post!

I would suggest that it could be taken one step further than Chi sau (feeling opponant) and Chi gong (feeling oneself) to the universal, feeling oneself in existence.

We are all a part of creation, its still unforling (the big bang). I beliefe, just like people and your body are always there, just that sensations are more apreciated when specifically focused on, looked for, that one can realise their connection to it all -- the benefits are great.

Think of MA before Chi sau, your body before Chi-gong, then life before awakening to the reality that reality is what your mind will believe. I for one think life is ones owm personal movie, you die when its over.

[KC Elbows]

So do you think that traditional chinese medicine is based on a series of well documented phenomenon(points, meridians) whose uses are well understood(chi stagnation, etc), or well documented phenomenon that have been denoted anecdotal explanation? Meaning, does the traditional chinese doctor who knows how to counter abuse to point A by manipulation of points B and C, have any real idea the biological processes he/she is causing/countering?

[KC Elbows]

GDA, all that extra yang energy is just rotting your orbs even faster.

C'mon, man, go with the flow.;)

[EARTH DRAGON]

With a due respect I think you are demining the capabilites of qigong. While it is true the meaning and understanding of qigong depends on the time spent training, you have to realize that many masters have taken qigong to levels that mortal people have a hard time dealing with, my teacher included. the medical branch of qigong is used to heal or rebalance patients qi flow , while obsrtucted by disease or by various blockages you cannot assume that qigong is used only for understanding oneself.

I have a hard time trying to use your anaolgy by comparring a listening excersise as chi sao to qigong can you please explain further

[Ray Pina]

To be honest, I really don't know.

I know this though, my hung gar teacher healed my broken ribs 2 years ago, gave me some poweder form of Dit dat jow, I had to cook it in a pan with some alcohol, apply and rap. It was hot. I think that helped curculation, ect.

My internal teacher now is helping with my bad knee. I told him I wanted to drop weight to help and this is what he said: "You can cut costs, but there is only so much you can cut; better to make more money." He has isolated the muscles I need to build and taught me how.

It's just knowledge of the human body, he's 60, been training since he's 5 -- he's the highest level I have ever personal experienced.

As for chi, I used to think it sounded, well, sound. I'm a big, hippy, Taoist, even if I was born in Newark, NJ. It sounded feasable, a life force, energy. You see it everywhere, what makes waves, wind. What moves the wind? What makes our finger nails grow?

But all my training in other arts -- Isshin-ryu, hun gar, wing chun and S. Mantis -- I never felt it. Never. And I practiced every day.

Coming on 10 months with my master now, I am well aware of my chi, and that around me. It grows more every day, soemtimes its wierd, too much and I feel a bit hyper, almost manic -- it scares my girl sometimes, but I just have to go outside soemtimes and walk, get things flowing, incorporate some chi gong into my walking.

I can understand those that dis it. I consider myself a man of science, an evolutionist, a fan of space and pysics, but the chi to me is as real as the jet stream. You might not be able to see it, but pay attention, its there.

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

"many masters have taken qigong to levels that mortal people have a hard time dealing with"

as opposed to how easily immortal people tend to grasp the concept?

[MightyB]

I agree with you KC and I also think that chi is non-mystical sensitivity. I think that it's a greater awareness of a lot of real and tangible things, those being--- a better sense of balance of both you and your opponent, a great sense of timing, and an advanced appreciation of applying force where an opponent is vulnerable. There is also alot of conditioning so that you are in better shape and you are used to impact.

The "danger" in chi gung and chi gung training is where people see these real attributes and think that they are supernatural in origin and then they tend to make exaggerated claims about what "chi" can do. They do this because fantasy and sci fi are fun. Reality is boring, but, you gotta keep it real for real results.

The B

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

i hope no one saw the post i just erased.

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

nevermind.

it still applys in a differant context. i am a complete and utter moron.

"Sensitivity is not a controversial thing, so that's not the problem many have with chi theories. "

i think most people's problem is still what you are sensitivying. :D

i don't think people can argue that you are listening in these exercises, but they can and will argue about what you hear if they have never heard it themselves.

[KC Elbows]

OK, I guess I didn't make my point very clear. I'll try again.

ED,
I did not mean to demean qigong, I'm a big fan of qigong. However, your teachers are still "us mortals", and what good does it do the study of qigong to never question what is given us? I am not making an assertion one way or the other, so I don't feel that should be demeaning. Also, aren't listening exercises a very simple form of qigong? Perhaps not the best example for me to have used, we can limit this discussion to qigong in its purest sense. My point was that it had quantifiable benefits, but the explanation had not yet been thouroughly studied under the western scientific model, and I think a lot of good could be done if it were, and I think that its possible that the old explanations might not all hold, but that's just a theory.

Evolutionfist,
I have experienced chi. See my answer to ED. I'm saying, yeah, a lot of the stuff works, but does it work because of the explanation put forward in the traditional model, or are the biological processes working differently than at first thought by the chi kung masters?

[KC Elbows]

For the record, I have never sensitivyified.

[Ray Pina]

I just do the exercises my master has shown me, they worked right away. He said the initial feelings I had were simply my veins and channels opening up, flowing better then I was used to. With time, the sensation changed, and now I am learning things almost on my own. Wierd and hard to explain, but I just feel when its flowing well and when its not.

My experience: standing in San Ti definitely works, but is painful as hell.

Repeating the opning of Taiji's form is the one I do the most, the up and down, the wave arms. I find it has a lot of martial apllications, the various shape/form of the waving arms, and it gets things flowing -- easy too, done properly one's heart rate does not even race.

[Repulsive Monkey]

What you initially said was acceptable up to a point. However the classics do say that that there is a level known as I know my partner, but my partner does not know me. Here you stick to your partners intent and know what there are going to do before they do it. This is a level which a few Tai Chi Masters (and other internalists) have reached. Tell me does science explain this too. Does science explain Ling Kong Jin? Or Zhen Dong Jin?

[bamboo_ leaf]

“I have experienced chi. See my answer to ED. I'm saying, yeah, a lot of the stuff works, but does it work because of the explanation put forward in the traditional model, or are the biological processes working differently than at first thought by the chi kung masters”

Could it be a case where we have no models that really show what’s going on?

Even if the biological processes where mapped out would it make it any more understandable to the average person?

It seems like for the people who have never experienced it are looking for an outside conformation of the process regardless of weather they can feel it or not.

For those who know this as an inner reality the current model while not expressed in western terms produces results if followed.

[Shaolindynasty]

I know you wanted TCM out of this thread but......In TCM qi and the physical body aren't seperate, nothing is. This is the hard part to really get in the west it sounds easy to grasp but most don't fully get it. For instance I hear alot of people give "phisiological explenations" of why they sense the things they do. In reality this is part of qi. The body and qi work together and anything that effects one effects the other. Take weight training, a bicep curl we all know pretty much how it affects the muscle but there is another aspect. By bringing blood to the muscle it also brings qi. In TCM there is a saying that where the blood goes the qi follows. So all exercise could be considered qigong in some way cause you can't effect the body without effecting the qi. That's just the way it is


P.S. People have done lots of testing on qi, probally just as much testing as they have done for western methods. Some people just like to try to mystify qi more than is true.

[KC Elbows]

repulsive monkey,
Agreed that there are deeper levels. Admittedly, the examples were just simple examples showing that on the face of it, there does not appear to be mysticism. However, science, in and of itself, is made up of a lot of theories that have held up under quite a bit of scrutiny. Nothing precludes chi kung theory from becoming a part of accepted scientific theory, except the scrutiny under the scientific model. Knowing the phenomenon intimately does not mean that one understands its causes. I'm just of the opinion that chi kung could become much more advanced with the aid of scientific understanding. Not sure if that makes any sense, but I'll go with it.

bamboo leaf,
Who has experienced it and who has not isn't really where I'm coming from. Its causes are what I'm discussing. I did not think traditional chinese medicine had faith as the core principle, but I am not an expert, by any means. What I'm saying is: if we could establish its causes, and there were inaccuracies in the original model, would we not then be improving it? The current model might produce results, but wouldn't understanding/revealing the model in greater detail be preferrable? Perhaps it would only immediately be understandable to the expert practitioner/scientist, but, like most technology, it would trickle down to the rest.

I'm not concerned with proving the process to those who know nothing about it, that's as pointless as giving a detailed explanation of macroeconomics to a layman who's not interested. I think there's some biological details that the eastern doctors noticed that have largely escaped the attention of western scientists, just as the west made some medical advances that the east had not considered. However, I see no reason to think of the two as apples and oranges.

OK, I'm done babbling for the moment.

[KC Elbows]

Shaolin dynasty,
Interesting stuff. Actually, I didn't mean for TCM to be kept out of it, its sort of central to the theme.

Most of the testing I've heard of was not all that extensive, though that was several years back, I'm sure there's been more. Unfortunately, I don't see the motivation to put a lot of money behind it right now. Maybe someday.

However, until the chi is actually found, its still theory, and the trick is finding it. However, if you could come up with a set of effects chi has on a biological structure, then you could map how it moves by observing those effects, THEN you could be waiting for it and possibly observe it in some way. Until that is done, it really isn't fair to expect people to believe in it even though you don't try to look for it actively in a less subjective way.

"I hear alot of people give "phisiological explenations" of why they sense the things they do. In reality this is part of qi."

That's the point. If, in reality it is ki, and ki and the physical are inseparable, then the physiological explanations are possibly fingerprints of ki. As inseparable parts of a whole, looking at ki and discounting the physiological explanations is only a partial view of ki, unless they aren't inseparable all the time.

My brain hurts.

[bamboo_ leaf]

I think it will take time, and there would have to be some way of correlating experiences with measurable results. Some of this work I believe has already been done. A lot of it is on going.

As to the org. model.

from what I have read, they arrived at this though some very different ideas of how the body works then the western ones.

I think the problem or difficulty that enters into these discussions is trying to bring both into sync with a dominant view of how things work. The western module.

I think there is a movement to do this but as I said I feel it will be awhile. and as some one said what would be the point.

the profit motive dosn't quite seem to be there yet!!!

[Nexus]

This thread is counterproductive to your internal training. It should be locked for the safety and security of those who have posted thus far.

[KC Elbows]

Nexus, why? Are you joking, or serious? I am not that familiar with your posts, so I can't tell.

I just don't get the resistance to further scientific knowledge of this. I don't know what specifically happens, nor do I speculate, I merely do my chi kung, and let it happen. I am not talking about the act of doing chi kung, nor am I talking about altering our chi kung training in any way, I am talking about what specifically happens physiologically when it is performed. What's the danger in doing chi kung as we always have, yet allowing an understanding of it to develop into a body of science that improves on both the western and eastern models?

As for the twice asked question:what would be the point?

What percentage of the bad decisions made in human history came from individuals acting from a position of out of control emotion, greed, pride, etc? I would imagine a very high percentage. Refinement of the tools of consciousness/unconsciousness, especially the ones an individual can use to center themselves, seem most important as a counter to such, and tools are not refined by saying "This is how it was taught to me, this is how I will teach it, and no better". Someone, at some time, came up with the chi kung sets we all do now. They didn't do it so that we would never have to contribute, and just rest on their accomplishments.

[Nexus]

What percentage of the bad decisions made in human history came from individuals acting from a position of out of control emotion, greed, pride, etc?

Not as many bad decissions as have been made out of the position of knowledge.

You ask if I am serious and why I posted that?

You are making the simple complicated and the ordinary complex. You seek stillness in your chi kung physically and energetically, would it not be to your advantage to replicating it in your mind and spiritually?

You will gain more by letting go, and setting aside the knowledge. You fill the empty space of your mind with clutter. Imagine your mind as a room with all the fixings lying about, and ask yourself if it is more important to add new things to your room or organize the items that are already there? When your room is completely still and organized, then adding on is appropriate and beneficial. Of course the choice is yours.

[Leonidas]

I found a site that explains how CHI GONG could work. It's only scientific theory, buts it better than speculation. It may be proven wrong but its seems plausible. Its really worth reading. The good stuff is after th Q & A portion.

http://www.tcminter.net/Artikel/closencounters.html

[Brad]

I think if Qi were explained scientificly, a lot of masters might feel threatened. As if what they do is less "special". A lot of martial artists also enjoy the mystisism and mystery of qi. It's like a religion to them.

[Repulsive Monkey]

I remain unconvinced that science can aid Qi Gong onto new heights in fact, and don't take this as an insult but I think the idea is laughable. They remian as two different models of thought, and Qi Gong masters do not see Qi as their religion like someone else stated. If they wnt religion then they acquire religion, if they want to cultivate their Qi they cultivate it. But back to what I was saying about models of thought. This is why TCM and Western Medicine will never become a totally intergrated tool my medicine. Unless one creates a brand new model of thought which magically marries to two's opposing ideas together into a cohesive whole. The signs are quite clear so far that the BMA and the AMA are not so loving in their want to embrace alternative medicines that closely, but at a modicum of a distance, and always as a second best behind western medicine.

[KC Elbows]

Nexus,
Then why don't you suggest the locking of all threads on technique that start as questions? They are also seeking after knowledge.
It is also an assumption that I am making the simple complicated. What if a scientific model turned out to be simpler, then you would be the one guilty of making the simple complicated. That's my point, really. Without that research, it is only assumption that the present model is the simple one.
And how does knowledge cause harm without un unstable mind to direct it?

Repulsive Monkey,
The BMA and AMA are only organizations, they are not the body of science. Also, you make the assumption that the only solution to the problem, and a doubtful one, is a marraige of eastern science and western. It could be neither. There could be other options.
And I'm not offended, but not because you told me not to be. I generally don't pay attention when people try to charge their arguments with such terms as "laughable", and I think you'd be better to just debate the point and not condascend, its a sure sign of a yang imbalance.:p

Brad,
I find myself in the unfortunate position of agreeing with what you have said. Many practitioners do appear to see it as a matter of faith, whereas my understanding is that it is not supposed to be faith based, but taking advantage of well documented, if little understood, phenomenon.


I'd just like to point out that I have tried to put forward my point without demeaning or condascending to any. If I have failed that in some way, please let me know. And, if you're going to try to direct my course of learning, please preface it with what qualifies you to do so.

And, one more time:

I am not suggesting a change in our chi kung practices. Period.

This thread is a "what if..." thread, and the discussion is about chi kung as it might be seen from a scientific view.

A bit of babble, but the other day, Prana told me a code held by some monks. It went something like "Don't teach unless the student wants to learn". I thought it was a nice piece of work, as it also implies that the so-called student might be in search of a more qualified teacher, or unwilling to learn, or not ready at that time. The teacher-student relationship, IMHO, is one that BOTH must agree on. This is actually aimed at Nexus; It is quite possible you have a lot to contribute, but if you are going to direct my studies, you will have to do it with my consent, and you didn't ask for it.

[KC Elbows]

OK, looking at my past thread, I am concerned that perhaps I was a little harsh. I'm sure that the responses I was getting were coming from the best possible intentions, and I hope no one is too offended, as I am not.

I won't delete the last thread, as I feel I had some valid points, especially as regards consent to the student-teacher relationship and the lack of any need for condascension in a debate.

Everyone have a good one, and good luck in your practices.

[Nexus]

KC:

it is obvious your posts are quite ego involved and not as concentrated on the essence of the arts itself. Due to the that fact and as you clearly stated my not being in a role to be your teacher or suggest possible perspectives rather then your own, I am going to withdraw from posting and reading this thread further and allow you to mold it however you see fit. Once again, it is your choice to do so.

- Nexus

[EARTH DRAGON]

While this discussion is great and could go on forever, I would like to add what my teacher said one time about testing qi, qigong and its abilities. doctors and scientists, both believe in germs and bacteria, but before louis pasture they could not really accept that bacteria could ever be used to heal. This was becuse they never tested it in the way that pasture did, so what I am basically saying is just becuse it can not be techniqally tested from a scientific standard you cannot assume that it has no scienitific properties. And although proven many times with results that the western base medicine cannot fully explain they have come to the conclusion that it does have some healing characteristics.
Hell the AMA just recently actually in the past 5 years approved accupuncture a viable from of treament. however china has realized this for the past 4000 years!
chiropractic methods were thought as ridiculous hocus pocus in the 50's, no everyone goes to one.

[KC Elbows]

Nexus,
We don't seem to be communicating here. Perhaps I am trying to mold the thread, as you have stated, but your attempt to stop the thread is the same, if from different intentions. As for the essence of the arts, the essence is a theory. I was curious if another theory might suffice just the same. Was it not ego to assume you knew what was best for everyone reading this thread? Wouldn't it be better for you and I to attempt to start out fresh, instead of abandoning communication because we stepped on each other's toes?
If you're still reading, I'll start. What sort of chi kung do you practice? Are you a chinese medicine practitioner? I practice the chi kung that is part of my martial art, and I try to meditate every day, but I am no expert. Once I am further in my martial training, I will have enough time to learn more chi kung and meditation, but I practice what I have, and it has made me a better person. You undoubtedly have focused more on your meditation than I, judging from past posts.

ED
I agree. The western view has its weakness. I just think some application of the western view could benefit chi kung, that's all.

Leonidas,
I'm still going through that site, but it looks interesting.

[Shaolindynasty]

"Many practitioners do appear to see it as a matter of faith, whereas my understanding is that it is not supposed to be faith based, but taking advantage of well documented, if little understood, phenomenon"


Yes this is VERY true. It is one of the reasons why I say that if you really wanto to learn what qi really is then go to a TCM practitioner cause they can actually explain it as a process. In my TCM class I was explained the process of converting air, food and whatever to qi, I was also told about the different types of qi and the qi "system" called meridians. The way I was explained how qi works and what it is. It sounded no more mysterious than the digestive, curculatory or nervous systems sound. There as a good video my sifu showed me from PBS, combined with the class I took from him, well let's just say I learned more from that than any of the 200 martial arts books I have, even more than the books on the internal arts. To bad I couldn't explain it fully on here I really need a refresher course;)

[KC Elbows]

Shaolin Dynasty,
Very cool. I'd love to see that PBS documentary. I'm beginning to think that I was overzealous in starting this topic without being a chi kung master AND a physiologist, but oh, well. Too late now.


For the sake of fairness, I'll mention something else Prana shared with me as far as vows that apply. It went something like "Never speak in a way that will cause conflict". I commented that, in light of a lot of the conflict going on in the forum at the time, I was going to try to do that myself. I guess I sort of dropped the ball on that one with Nexus and others on this thread.:(

[Ray Pina]

I do not have faith in Chi. I do not need faith in something that is apparant, like gravity. It just takes proper guidence and an open mind to become aquainted with. Its there already.

Just people dismiss and don't look, to find or learn, and so they never become familiar. You can not see the air but it is there as well, and as vital.

[KC Elbows]

One member early on mentioned doing chi kung and his instructor explaining that the feeling he was experiencing was hi veins expanding.

Shaolin Dynasty, you mentioned the conversion of food and air into chi.

I do not disagree with these things. I think that they are the sort of things that could be studied scientifically. If doing a certain chi kung exercise expands the veins, then it is a simple matter of measuring that expansion. Western medicine is good at that stuff, so it could be done. If no such expansion occurs, then the feeling is something else happening, something equally beneficial, but not the same. Then scientists could look further to try to find what does cause the feeling.

The conversion of matter into chi is harder to measure, I would think, but not impossible. If two pounds of food go in the belly, and less comes out, some conversion happened. This is normal. Now say that all the missing matter is accounted for for normal functions, except amount X. Then, finding X could lead to chi, or something else equally interesting.

This is all idle speculation, but its possible, IMHO.

[Shaolindynasty]

Ha! I'll have to give it to you KC you don't aim low do you:D

I think these kind of studies may be going on but it isn't exactly front page news. I would actually love to see the results of those kind of studies myself. I guess the hard part is analyzing eastern science by using western science, both of their areas of specialty are different. I think we are still a long way off from satisfying the western scientific community as far as qi is concerned. But I doubt they rule it out completely. The people who need to research oreintal and western medicine are the people who have nothing to gain from it. You will probally never see a professional advocate somthing that he might consider competition. My sifu has told me lot's of funny stories about local doctors trying to keep natureal healing out of our hospitals cause they aren't trained in it. Yet it goes both ways, you probally won't see a professional in TCM say qi doesn't exsist. To come to either conclusion is gonna take time, sadly we probally won't see it in this life time or at least by the end of ours. It's not exactly a must next to other research going on right now.

[Shaolindynasty]

Ha! I'll have to give it to you KC you don't aim low do you:D

I think these kind of studies may be going on but it isn't exactly front page news. I would actually love to see the results of those kind of studies myself. I guess the hard part is analyzing eastern science by using western science, both of their areas of specialty are different. I think we are still a long way off from satisfying the western scientific community as far as qi is concerned. But I doubt they rule it out completely. The people who need to research oreintal and western medicine are the people who have nothing to gain from it. You will probally never see a professional advocate somthing that he might consider competition. My sifu has told me lot's of funny stories about local doctors trying to keep naturual healing out of our hospitals cause they aren't trained in it. Yet it goes both ways, you probally won't see a professional in TCM say qi doesn't exsist. To come to either conclusion is gonna take time, sadly we probally won't see it in this life time or at least by the end of ours. It's not exactly a must next to other research going on right now.

[KC Elbows]

but I'm just so **** tall.

At least I haven't offended everyone.

Yeah, I'd like to see the research, too, not that I'd understand it, but I'd give it a good try.

What other physiological traits(expanded veins, food conversion, stagnant blood) has everyone heard of in relation to chi kung?

[No_Know]

KC_Elbows, When one finds presents under the tree, Santa Clause seems rational. When questioned, the nature of Magik seems reasonable.

I was limited to the Earth after birth~ years before I was told to my ears about gravity~. Yet I was affected by gravity even while still in the womb.

I turn on the radio and it works. It was told to me the facts behind sound waves. But it hasn't yet fully sunk in about verticle and horizontal stuff that has to do with harmonics or frequency and volume...yet I can hear.

And the concept about the numbers on the radio being frequencies and all of them being in the air at the same time.~...Supposedly it's the case. I can see it to some extent, but I don't think I have a full understanding. I can say the words, but I am not necessarily comfortable thinking that I fully get it.

Let's say that there are people who do qi stuff and people who learn qi stuff. The people who are learning might be those voices interpreting what for the doers is normal, as supernatural, mystical...So all the scoffing trying to be the voice of reason is at least to some extent, unfounded-ish.

Depending on understanding, The such and such inhibits the clock speed and the such and such file got whatevered on reboot...or it's broken? There's the long explaination that boils down to, guess what? It doesn't work--It's broken.

They're both right~. People who try to choke the poetic relaying and force feed the Science-way seem lost that understanding what's there might be more significant than steaking a lynch mob to get people to use their words even though they were already saying the same thing.

[KC Elbows]

To an extent, I see your point, No_Know. I agree on the point of the learners creating the sense of mysticism. Its much like newbies to a MA: they're like "This art can do anything, its amazing, its unstoppable, its the end all be all". Enthusiasm. Most of the chi kung teachers I have known didn't fall into this group, so I'd imagine your statement is pretty accurate.

On the two views saying the same thing, I'll suppose we'll know that when the second view becomes more developed. The end result, I think, will be the same, only the explanation of how it works MIGHT change. Chi kung will still do what its always done, same with acupuncture and such. So yes, the info is on the surface meaningless and changes nothing. I'm dying to know, nonetheless, unbuddhist as that might be.

One of these days I'll have to pick everyone's brains for the buddhist view of knowledge. I don't believe in dependence on it, but I also don't believe in the abandonment of it. Its all an illusion, I suppose, but there really seems to be some rationale behind the specific illusions that face each person: they always seem to lead to a path. Ah well, I'm babbling again.

And why shouldn't Santa Claus seem rational?

[KC Elbows]

Some interesting stuff from the link Leonidas put up(thanks Leonidas! and I'm sure the Greek city-states thank you, too):

"Approaching as an orthodox western scientist he began more than 20 years ago, he completely doubted the existence of the "Channels of Qi" (meridians) as referred to in the classical scripts of Chinese Medicine. Knowing nothing about Chinese Medicine he was skeptic about all its mysterious statements and he began instead measuring flows of low electric resistance in the body, high oscillation sounds and high skin sensitivity.

After years of research he found a network of channels running through the body. When he told his findings to a TCM (Trad.Chin.Med.) Doctor, and the physician took out a so-called "Copper Man," the little model on which meridians traditionally are mapped to compare the lines. They matched 100% the electro-sonic network Dr. Zhu had found on the human body! "

[KC Elbows]

Here's one from the link that relates to measuring actual changes in tissue possibly related to chi kung:

Facilitating (warming) Qi caused
1.8% increase of cell growth in 24 hrs.,
10-15% increase of DNA synthesis,
3-5% increase of protein synthesis in a 2 hr period on FS-4 cells,
12.5-13% respiration rate increase on boar sperm cells after 5 min. exposure

[Sharky]

i guess it equals MC^2?

[KC Elbows]

Bad sharky! Don't bring your scientific babble in here with our psuedoscientific babble!:D

There's no telling what could happen.

[diego]

tobe pc sharkey:o

[prana]

edit: bad case of broken records :D

[KC Elbows]

Hell, now that we've involved real math, I'm not interested anymore.

Typical American. All Tech TV, no tech school.

I think I'll go practice.

[No_Know]

Stereotypical:

-The volume of his solid form versus the volume of the space of the keyholes he supposedly goes through, the volume of the space under the doors he supposedlygoes under or the volume of space of the chimneys he would supposedly go down.

-A single person who comprehends Any language.

-A bulky horned creature that flies with or without wings...that's not a dragon.

-Starts and completes his workings in one Winter's night--alters reality to traverses the World.

.?.

-

[KC Elbows]

Reindeer with lightness chi kung?

The size is all suit, underneath he's a contortionist escape artist that can fit just about anywhere?

He's got one of those universal translators?(I can just picture him at your place, No_Know "Merry Christmas-ish")

He utilizes wormholes/hyperspace to make it all those places in one night.

See, perfectly rational.

[No_Know]

Those were merely the stereotypes as to why not rational. But anyway, you have clearly refuted such concepts.

I C (y) like the North Pole-ish.

Does that really count as a Polish joke? I've not ever even eaten a perogie. Where's the logic in that...Allentown.

[KC Elbows]

I'm glad I could do my part for science.:D

BTW, rumor has it that the NSA has a secret base where they breed egg laying rabbits for a yearly invasion every spring. Its said to be a form of population control, feeding the masses cholesterol loaded eggs in order to shorten the life span and give the angioplasty industry a boost.

Ironic that the "chi=?" thread turned into the "thread about nothing, but its about something".