arm techniques

[EARTH DRAGON]

ko
lo
tsai
kua
can you explian the differences from that of 8 step to 7*?
it seems as though 8 step has a more extended arm applications than that of 7* but I would like to hear your comparisons

[MightyB]

"can you explain the differences from that of 8 step to 7*?"

Don't think that it can be done unless a person was a sifu in both.

"it seems as though 8 step has a more extended arm applications than that of 7*"

I don't agree with that assumption, please qualify that statement.
I base my dissagreement from the majority of the discussions that you guys have on this forum. It seems that the only difference between 8 step and the other styles of PM is the footwork.

Interesting topic and I look forward to seeing the replies.

[Tainan Mantis]

These 4 techniques are the same in both styles.

[EARTH DRAGON]

I realize that but the other day when I was woking with a 7 * guy he showed me these techniques but he seemed not as extended when applying them , and some seemd different and i wondered if that was becuse of our tong bei influence

[Tainan Mantis]

The meaning of this technique is somewhat confusing so I'll start with my understanding of it, but forgive me if you've heard this before.

Go- as you first make contact with the opponent your hand takes a hooking shape with an unsolid grab.
If you manage to adhere for longer than a moment then "go" can become a solid grab, but this is difficult.

Lo-is a solid grab. This can be applied whether "go" becomes solid or not. This is an easier grab to apply than the first one(usually) because the first hand is putting some small control on the opponent.

Tsai-means to pluck, as if plucking a peach from a tree. It is done with both hands.

In some styles of PM there is no word Diao(-to hook) and this tsai means pulling with one hand only. It is possible that this meaning is taught in 8 Step which would make my previuos post incorrect.

So go-lo-tsai has only grab and pull, but no strike. The confusion arises because when we say go-lo-tsai it almost always means doing the above 3 moves and then striking with that hand that performed the "go" technique.

In 7* it is usually a straight punch like your friend did the other day. The length of the arms in go-lo should be dictated by factors such as strength of grab, size of opponent etc.

One of my students is a hockey pro who is much stronger than me and so my elbows practically scrape against my body. Earth Dragon, maybe you were stronger than your friend?

In 8 Step form called 7 Hands go-lo-tsai is done with an over head vertical smash(pi).
While the partner for the 2 man set does a straight punch.

The reason go-lo-tsai has a strike added is do to the flexible move #6(of 12 flexible) which says:

"If pluck-hand then enter-hand"

This means that if I "pluck" then I can strike immediately. But it also means if I "pluck", my opponent can strike me. That is quite obvious if I use two hands to pull your one hand. Then you still have one free hand to clobber me with.

Although some PM groups may disagree with my definition of "gwa"(there are several) but ours, when in conjunction with the 12 character formula, is:

After I pluck(but no strike) and you then strike me I perform "gwa."

You will notice that if you "pluck" correctly the opponent will almost always use his free hand to punch you in the face as it is quickest and easiest.
That is the beauty of PM. It is a set up so that I know what he'll do before he does it and so my "gwa" can easily become a solid grab at which point his hands are folded over and pressed to his body while I get a free "enter hand"

The other application of Tsai with out a follow up punch can be found in 7* beng bu beginning of 2nd route and 8 Step Lipi beginning of 5th route.

This is to pull the opponent onto his face.

To do this visualize the opponent standing with his hips untwisted.
From his belly button emerges a light.
When pulling in that direction the opponent will fall flat on his face if he doesn't readjust one of his feet.

[EARTH DRAGON]

Thank you Tainan, that explians alot, I understand now were the variations come into play. between you and oldmantis you guys are a wealth of knowledge and compared to my depth I am but a shallow pond next to deep lake. thanks again by the way how long have you been in mantis?

[mantis108]

Well said, Tainan Mantis, thanks for sharing. :)

Mantis108