What is your own theory of internal Martial Arts?

[blacktaoist]

I like to hear from internal practitioners that have they own wisdom, knowledge and personal power that that develop from they own personal internal practice.

Many internal practitioners on kung fu on line replie with internal theory and application knowledge that is not of they own living encountering."

Most internal practitioners on this web page are giving some good advice on theory, but the theory in they statements are not based on they own personal knowledge and own experience.

They base they understanding of internal knowledge on decreased Chinese masters of past, Chi theory that may not work in a common street fight. There is nothing mysterious about seeing a person get his ass kick on the streets.

But when people talk about the internal martial arts, people love to talk about fighting in the internal as if its mysterious or strange.

I call these people myth fighters, they don't have any real understanding of Martial Arts. Because they have no real life knowledge.

They are a slave to Chinese internal Martial Arts literature on theory, and fear to explore and established new theory for a better practical combat strategy or just a way of living.(better strategy of living) In other words they read about internal Martial arts, but they don't practice to have true understanding and knowledge.

So I would like to hear from the real taoist method practitioners of Tai Chi, Ba Gua, Hsing Yi of 2002. I like to hear your own experence and personal understanding and knowledge of theory. I don't want to hear about Chinese dead past masters statements of theory, masters like Sun Lu Tang,Chen Man Ching or Yeuh Fei's Hsing Yi theses. For their theory is of they own personal practice not yours."

So internal Martial Art Brothers my question is?

If you had two friends that ask you to teach them internal Martial Arts. One of your friends just wanted to learn Chi Kung to increase his health and vitality,and the other friend wanted to learn how to fight with the internal Martial arts.

How would you teach them to develop and increase in wisdom knowledge and they own personal power, from your own experience and personal understanding and knowledge of your internal Martial Art method?




:D

This is what I'd say to those two friends because this is how my "internal" style operates:

I teach, you learn.
Empty your cup first.

[Water Dragon]

I'd teach 'em both in the same way. It's not my fault if one of them quits:D

[shaolinboxer]

"I teach, you learn. "

Is it such a one way street?

[Water Dragon]

Originally posted by shaolinboxer
"I teach, you learn. "

Is it such a one way street?

Pretty much. If you want to learn to read, it doesn't matter if you want to read a book or write one. You still need to know that an adjective describes a noun. You still need to know that a verb describes action. There's no way around it.

If you want to learn math, there's no way of getting around 2+2=4.

Same thing in CMA. Doesn't matter WHY you want to learn. The learning is the same.

[bamboo_ leaf]

The basics are the same.
Given your example I would teach both the same.

The practice itself leads to a type of understanding about the self, that later builds the foundation for MA usage at a later time.

The one wanting to develop a MA usage would have to do other things that would build on the foundation and test s/he usage and understanding of foundational skills.

the level of skill depends on envolment and desire.

[blacktaoist]

Thank you guys for your replys." But I would like a more in-death description of how you will teach your own knowledge of therory and internal Martial Arts training. What kind of trainng program would you established for your friends, to encourage them to train hard on the own and make progress and constantly improve they own personal knowledge and Martial skills?


Also what if one of your friends has a timid mindset. How would you help him overcome fear. What would be your method of teaching?:D

[MonkeySlap Too]

When I teach, each 'maxim' used to describe something can be defined and related to a specific, measurable result. I prefer to break down the training so that each step logically follows into the next - although it not always easy to see for the student.

By emphasizing an overall school doctrine, the strategies it is built on, and the tactics that get you there, a student is supplied with the tools they need to excel. Why shouldn't CMA be taught logically? Our 'competitors' in the MMA world have no problem teaching openly.

Nothing is vague, nothing is a someday. It is always 'Here is what you do.' The experience and the result is quantified by the students experience. I also encourage students to challenge the material and how it is taught - well, at least once they have an idea of what I am talking about. Teaching is as much a learning experience for me as it is for the student. Just like CMA, you get better at teaching from practice.

If a person is timid, I seek to guide them - the material is the same, but how they get introduced to it may be different. My school has methods for developing courage, and they may be more pronounced for the timid student.

Lately, I have been using more Western phisiology and kinesiology to explain how to do things. This often produces a quicker result, and less time is wasted looking for mystical answers. I cannot say that this works 100%, but based on the reviews I am getting from my students, and the improvements in thier skill, it seems to be working.

What is your approach?

[maoshan]

What my classmate is trying to say is, If you've trained for a certain amount of time and you are now ready to teach, In the course of your learning you should (by now) have developed your own concepts of the teaching and how it applies to you thus forming your own idea's. how would you apply this in your own teaching towards the two students.


Maoshan

[bamboo_ leaf]

When I train people nothing is theory. They either find it in themselves or the feel it in me.
If there is a question the answer is immediate through direct exprince.

My training progresses from standing, to walking, linking upper and lower body together though movements out of the form.

This is most of the class.
As the they pick up the desired skill more movement is introduced. My goal when working with someone is to establish a base line that there body remembers, This is not always a pleasant experience. for them.

I go as much as they can stand and little more, this doesn’t help me retain anybody but then again I don’t charge money, you pay in sweat.

If they can survive the basics they should be over their timidness.
My training address the fundamental aspects of my art in a very direct way, it is my training too.

There are two questions that I address. Can you do it/ show me.
This is no less then I expect of myself.

For me my standards and my art are much more important then producing some feel good stuff that is called TC. I don't teach feel good i teach TC. :)


that is how i approch working with some one, if they don't like it thats cool too. ;)

[mantis108]

There is a very fine line between exploring new path(s) and reinventing the wheel. Often the "new" height is really the beginning of the end. We see that in Ch'an. Have you ever wonder why there is not much after the sixth patriarch? We kind of seeing that in JKD. Who or what surpassed its founder or founding principle. We certainly have seen that in modern WuShu. Demise of Chinese martial arts and the birth of Chinese martial sports.

With all due respects, Taoist theories are so poorly understood or rather they are so misunderstood that it makes no particular sense to many people. The term Taoist is just like a brand name only nowadays (i.e Taoist Tai Chi). There are not a lot of people who can "read" or "draw" the Tai Chi symbol correctly. That my friend is the most basic of Taoist theory and they can't even handle that. Do you honestly expect they can teach what little they "know"?

Mantis108

[Shooter]

>"If you had two friends that ask you to teach them internal Martial Arts. One of your friends just wanted to learn Chi Kung to increase his health and vitality,and the other friend wanted to learn how to fight with the internal Martial arts.

How would you teach them to develop and increase in wisdom knowledge and they own personal power, from your own experience and personal understanding and knowledge of your internal Martial Art method?"<

__________________________________________________ ___________



If I told one friend that the discipline and health they seek is found in Tai Chi's combative training, and told the other that the combative skills they seek are found through Chi kung's healthful movement and energy management skills-training, they'd both get what they're looking for. The principles are the same, but the focus and awareness are different.

Both are sound approaches, but In this case, it depends on my skill and depth of knowledge to guide each toward their goal in these roundabout methods. The most important component is how willing both students are to put their faith in my methods.

To paraphrase Stockhausen; "You can't really teach anyone anything...You can only bring out what's already there"


I try to help people develop their own training strategies and encourage them to take responsibility for their own learning. All I can do is impart the principles that lead them to discovering Tai Chi within themselves.

As for specific methods;

Chi Kung has two faces...performance and health. I introduce performance based Chi kung first so that solo practice is specific to what the player will be doing during their combative training. The specificity of the Chi Kung routines are mated seamlessly with TC's 8 Gates and their attendant footwork. Only then is form and health based Chi Kung introduced.

Tai Chi has tactical universality and that aspect is simple enough to grasp, but as people start peeling back the layers, they begin to understand the depth and profundity that TC contains as an IDEA rather than a particular "style"

I approach Tai Chi on a conceptual level where the ideas of energy management and movement principles just happen to apply to all apsects of one's being and doing. The guy who wants health teaches himself how to fight, and the guy who wants to learn fighting teaches himself how not to fight by avoiding trouble and focusing on his well-being.

That's all for now...maybe more later

[Water Dragon]

"If you have been in Taiji for 5 years and it hasn't changed you, you have wasted your time" -- One of my teachers' teachers

Martial arts, in my perspective are fighting arts. That is their purpose and all results will come from that pursuit.

I like to begin from day one with freestyle push hands. It is the laying of the foundation for future success. The essence of Taiji lies in Tui Shou and serious study provides insight into how we deal with people on all levels. It is purely Yin; submissive. It always yields and never discharges. The goal is to never let the opponent lay his force upon you. Relaxation is crucial and also builds efficient movement. You learn to respond and react by touch.

Martially, you develop the ability to not take a hit, not be set up for a throw, and to restrict the opponents movement. It's very similar in principle to BJJ's rolling in principle, but done standing. You always have control over the opponent. You control the angle, direction, speed, etc. The yielding will eventually lead into the execution of technique. When this is achieved, it is called the "Glorious union of Yin and Yang." Basically the hard (technique training) has merged with the soft (Tui Shou training)

In combat the entire training above appears only for an instant. The fighter bridges in aggresively, reads the opponent at first contact and unbalances him, and delivers his power (technique)

The above integration occurs in free sparring.

Mentally, Tui Shou leads to a relaxed mind. The mind handles stress much better and thinks more clearly. Physically the body is relaxes. This reduces physical stress which may add years onto one's life and has been medically proven to lead to a healthier existence into later years.

As far as health goes, all I can say is that I do have a developed sense of touch, and my wife loves Taoist massage, so Hey ;)

A similar process applies to the rest of the training spectrum, but is geared toward technique, structure, Strength, Internal Development, etc.

[Stacey]

I'd teach one aikido, do softening excercises like push hands and blindfolded, bending in the wind. Teach them how to anticipate a strike, how to yield and bend with it and then basic aikido. (Taken from tai chi/ba gua anyways)

They would both meditate as water dragon said. I think you can greatly accelerate the ima if you want to. I think teachers make more money getting in from on 500 students and doing a set without caring how they are screwing up their knees.


I think that its possible to train someone to fight using tai chi within a few months for basic application to kick someone's but while fighting on say...ice.

I'd also have them do bag work and spar with emphasis on nien or adhering. But hey, thats the way I'm trained, so I guess I would do the same.


stance work till they puke. Loads of chi kung. Not the "wow those 5 minutes really opened my elf chakra, but an hour of it in low postures, tendon excercises.

Chen village drove off an army of bandits. Did they all have 30 years to master it? Probably not. Could they learn pung and press and finish them off with a knife? Its far more likely. Besides tai chi can easlilly transfer to weapons because of the emphasis on waist movement.

[Justa Man]

i'd teach them both the same exercises, because most chi kung i know is martial chi gung....chi kung with martial application. the guy who wants better health gets it...the one who wants fighting skill gets it (if they practice). the one who wants martial skill would also do specific exercises that are just for fighting, not for chi gung, and when a good foundation is developed, would spar. they'd both definitly learn meditation as well.

i'd explain things to them using examples in the real world as examples of the importance of the exercises. the yin/yang symbol alone, if understood and explained right, gives many examples of proper approach and practice of chi gung and fighting, as does the wu xing. i'd also ask many questions, testing them in the principles of what they are learning, to make sure they know for themselves and aren't just taking my word for law.

hopefully, if i give good enough real life examples of internal martial art practice, they can relate to it for themselves, therebye gaining the personal knowledge and power that you spoke of.

what do you think ?

For me, I teach the same way I was taught:

get the solo set right first.

[blacktaoist]

Very good Replys."


Monkey Slap Too: What is your approach?

My Approach to teaching a student relates to their mindset and phycsical work capacity in the following areas:

Strength, Cardiovascular function, muscular efficiency and comprehension level."

I would train a student first in standing chi Kung postures, a student training under me will learn first hand what stllness is all about by practicing it, not just reading theory about. I will train a student in standing Yi Chuan postures for at least ten minutes to half an hour each posture.

In my style of Yin BaGua We have 15 Yi Chuan postures. Most styles of BaGua only practice 8. The Yi Chuan postures are necessary for the students to build up the strength and muscular endurance of their legs and arms. With long time practice they postures will be natural and they mind will be calm and unified with they posture.

Step two is when I teach a student Chi Kung Sets with a general introduction to chi principles and theory in order for them to understand chi kung, the first set I teach a student is easy to understand and learn and practice on their own.

The Moving form of Chi Kung I teach a student is known as the taoist ten warm ups. This is a very simple moving Chi Kung set that I learn from Master B. P. Chen. This Moving form of Chi Kung develop the large muscles, and loosen all the joints of the human body.

After a student is in better physical condition I will then teach them more Chi Kung sets to increase their health and physical condition. Other chi kung sets I will teach my students will be Do Mo Wai Dan exercises and a lot of Yin Style Wai Dan exercises to build up the Chi(energy) at the wrist and palms.

When a student have learned and complete all the sets, I will then teach them the 8 mother palms of Yin style BaGuaZhang. Afther learning the 8 mother palms a student may begin to learn other forms of BaguaZhang.

but most of the time I will first teach a student William C. C. Chen form of Yang style Tai Chi. So that my students can learn how to relax in their movements. I then will teach them William C. C. Chen form of freestyle push hands(tui Shou) as I learned the method from him. After a student is good at sticking and know how to neutralize, evade and develop their sensitivity to a good level.

I then move them on to Kung Fu traditional body conditioning exercises:

Two man Conditioning, solo Post training, palm training.and iron shirt Chi kung auxiliary traning.(Impact training many ways of training this method)

I then will teach a student San Shou Freefighting , first a student will start training martial techniques and applications in a set way. Then they will teach theirself how to skillfully utilize they martial techniques unrehash in freefighting.(sparring)

If I have a timid student most of the time I teach them the five fist of Hsing YI and some Taoist sitting meditation methods. I then will teach a timid student the Ann Shen Pau Hsing YI two man form. Most timid students that I had , after learing this form mindset have become combative. They timid attitude was no more.

Anyway this is a example of how I would teach and some methods of what I teach.

Peace All, practice and live long.


:cool:

[blacktaoist]

Just A Man)what do you think ?

I think you have a good teaching method. Good reply. As everybody teaching method reply was practical and good information about their own personal knowledge.

peace, :cool:

I also think you have a good regimen, theblacktaoist, but my question is why do you go off in different directions so early in the training?

I ask this question not because I think it's wrong, but because my sifu and I practice only one style and have enough trouble mastering just THAT.

[spiralstair]

The friend who wants to learn chi kung gets his first lesson in standing still, with emphasis on correct structural posture.That's it for him, until he returns with a demonstratable ability to stand still 'holding' the structure for 3 minutes. The second lesson involves me deliberately rearranging his posture to an 'incorrect alignnment'. He must readjust it to the correct form and hold it still.Then he goes away, not to come back till he can stand still for six minutes. IF he returns, we go on.
The friend who wants to learn 'internal fighting' is asked to throw a punch of any variety from any position. I knock him down hard. The ground is also hard. I then explain that if he wants to learn 'fighting' he must be okay with more than a little pain. If he says he is (he will) we continue along those same lines for the first class. He fights with what he knows and I counter with internal style techniques that tend to knock him down. If he returns for another lesson we begin some instruction in form, structural alignment, and more fighting.
I don't talk much at all about 'chi' with a beginner, because it makes one talk too much.
Peace.

[blacktaoist]

Huang Kai Vun)but because my sifu and I practice only one style and have enough trouble mastering just THAT.

BT) I teach different forms of internal Kung Fu, because I have met and learned from a lot of good Chinese masters of the internal martial arts. Also I wanted to explore and learn other methods of the internal.

My first internal Sifu Rudy Curry Jr. would always say: It is best to expand your mind to new methods and combine them with already established skills. Never limited yourself to one method, Grasp whatever you can, be open-minded about everything.

And this is how I teach my students. I tell them learn what you want to learn, but never close your mind to something different.

Peace.:cool:

[Water Dragon]

TBT, Do you keep the arts seperate at this point, or are you pretty much teaching "Your understanding of fighting according to Chinese methods?"

i.e., is it better to be effective in combat, or pure in style?

[bamboo_ leaf]

A very insightful question WD.

I think it may be a key point in understanding many of our different view points here. ;)


TBT, this has been one of the better threads

[blacktaoist]

W-D) TBT, Do you keep the arts seperate at this point, or are you pretty much teaching "Your understanding of fighting according to Chinese methods?"

B-T) I teach the internal arts seperate, because in my experience practicing any one of the three internal arts, practitioner mind set will not be the same as if he was just practicing one internal method, and the expression of enery is definitely a big difference in all three internal arts.


My Method of teaching Chinese methods is to test the theory and application of a Chinese internal method in a human living encountering existence.

By training in push hands and unrehash freefighting to explore the already established Chinese theorys and Applications and create better more practical fighting tactics and methods of combat. I'm not a slave of one internal style as many are today. I like to call myself a internal theory experimentalist. So my comprehension level of understanding of Chinese methods is high. because I test the theory and methods out in many real situations.

I try to help my students to become they own sage of living existence. There is no time for being old fashioned. One must progress.

W-D) i.e., is it better to be effective in combat, or pure in style?

It is better to practice a practical form of combat to manifest a pure style in my opinion.

Peace
:cool:

[PlasticSquirrel]

a few standing postures and stances for half a year, then one good form for a year. i would have the person who wanted to learn for health practice standing postures and stances for a year instead of half, though.

without proper foundation in stances/postures it's hard to teach a real form properly. bad habits are hard to shake.

[Kevin Wallbridge]

"Internal theory experimentalist"

Nicely said BT.

[Water Dragon]

Yeah, good stuff. It's a little different than I approach training, but I like your style TBT.

[Sam Wiley]

I have actually run into simialar situations, TBT. To answer your questions, I would teach both of them the same things. I believe that Taiji as a martial art must begin with the foundation of qigong, and I also believe that for Taiji to reach its zenith as far as healing is concerned, that the martial side must be learned as well.

I have a student who is quite Yin in nature. Not exactly timid, but not nearly as aggressive as I would like for him to be. I had him practice a method called "The Goats Butting Heads," with me. In this exercise, you begin by having your partner run at you and you must use P'eng to redirect the force and bounce him away. Then you progress to using Ji to do this. And finally, both of you are using a posture similar to Fair Lady Works Shuttles to bounce each other away. The thing about his exercise is that it teaches you to deal with incoming force that you must stop or else you will definitely be hit. It seemed to raise his Yang energy a bit. But he was still pretty timid during other training methods like Da Lu, afraid that if he hit me he would hurt me. After a few minutes of demanding him to do so, I got him to slap me hard in the face, and I said, "See? I don't mind getting hit. I'm not going to get angry if you hit me, and it's not going to hurt that bad." He relaxed a bit, and from then on used a little more power.

When it comes to teaching the stuff, I try to present theory along with application, to show them why both in theory and in aplication they must do things this way.

[Zantesuken]

bleh I'm bored so I guess I'll post and I see Bamboo_leaf is here so he might flame me cause I "write to well for a 15 year old". Ok anyways it's not like chi theory doesn't work in a fight but the chances of you coming across someone w/ super skills in hsing-i, xingyi, tai chi in 2002 is preeetttty unlikely. the internal stuff takes years of practise to get to work so a lot of people just transform what they know to suit them. some people i know say that they think tai chi is b.s. cause you can't beat up someone else w/ total relaxation. u gotta put muscle in blah blah blah. it makes sense to me but in my opinion they haven't worked hard enough and long enough for it.

some ppl on other forums say tho that hsing-i is the fastest one to show results combat wise. some guy claimed that he's scrawny but after a few months(or was it years?) of training he could send a 200lbs or so punchin bag flying back. sounds pretty amazing.... :p

[bamboo_ leaf]

No flame from the leaf. :)

It seems that there is a lot of commonality from what I have been reading only different at the end points and maybe not so much there either.

Sam,

can you explain a little more on.

Bouncing, stopping, power?

this seems very different from what I would characterize as the use of TC.

;)

[Sam Wiley]

Okay. For the first "level" of the exercise you stand in a bow stance with your P'eng arm forward. Your partner runs at you from about 5 feet away or so, and pushes with both hands on your arm. You must use a fa-jing shake to bounce him away. The trick is that the force cannot go straight into him as this violates Taiji principles, and you must keep you back bowed and absorb the shock and send it to the ground so that you don't fall over. The shaking of the body causes the force to scatter, and because the shake thrusts your arm forward as well, he will lift off his feet a bit and go backward a bit. It's a bit like if you have a bicycle on its side and the front wheel is spinning. If you try to push straight in, your hands go flying off to the side.

It's the same with Ji. And in the third part, both partners stand still facing each other. Both P'eng arms meet at the wrist, and the other hand strikes the forearm near the elbow. Again, the force does not go straight forward, but a little to the side. If your right P'eng is forward, the force goes in a line sort of from your left hip to his left shoulder. It's like doing Lu and Ji from the form.

The exercise is not to teach any special techniques or anything. It just teaches you to brace up, get in there and fight. It just helps to raise the Yang energy. On top of that, the contact is rather hard, and conditions the forearms. One of the difficult things is to maintain your rootedness and not fall over. If anything technique-wise is learned from them, they would teach how to barge into a fairly overwhelming attack before he hits you and strike with P'eng, Ji, or An.

After training in methods like this, the tendency becomes to just barge into an attacker's space a split second after he even moves and strike. Some people look at people doing this and say that they moved before the attacker even threw a punch, but the Classics tell us "when he makes the slightest move, you move."

So anyway, it's not bouncing or stopping "power," it's just teaching us how to get in there and fight, and whether you just shake him up or send him flying doesn't matter.

[Water Dragon]

Bamboo Leaf. We do it, we just call it something different. Your letting the guy fall into your root. Then you borrow his power and return it to him. This is the video where Chen Man Ching is throwing a young William CC Chen backword about 20 feet. I think the shake is what's throwing the idea off. We have a more whipping type power at the end. I think what Sam is describing is more like a shocking energy, or maybe a shudder. Like something you'd expect to see out of the Hakka styles. Intriguing. Sam, any thoughts?

[bamboo_ leaf]

Thanks, Sam and Water Dragon,

I think I really understand what looks very different in my viewpoint and experience at this time.

Sam , thanks for takeing time to make it more clear, opened a few things in my mind. :)

Water Dragon I can understand that use.

[Zantesuken]

Bamboo leaf if u wanna learn about stopping, bouncing power and all that i suggest u get the book Tai Chi Classics translated b Waysun Liao. It's a pretty cool book and it explains a lot of what ur looking for ;)

[miscjinx]

Blacktaoist,

"If you had two friends that ask you to teach them internal Martial Arts. One of your friends just wanted to learn Chi Kung to increase his health and vitality,and the other friend wanted to learn how to fight with the internal Martial arts. "

I don't cover chi gung as something separate, as I study tai chi and you get the increased health and vitality as well as a fighting martial art.

So I would teach both the same. I would start by describing internal strength in terms like Mike Sigman (ground path). I tend to use both this and the chi paradigm interchangably, so I would use both to describe. We would work on basic centering, balancing, and relaxing. We would work on static tests for ground path - pushing hip, shoulder, elbow, and eventually the hands. Work on getting the body to work as an intergrated whole. We would practice a couple basic standing chi gongs to get the body connections and relaxation...try standing 15 minutes without tensing or tiring - working up to 15 of course. We would apply the internal strength concepts as we learn the old style Yang tai chi form (one with leaping kicks and explosive punches later in the form).

Once the basic idea of using the body and groundpath is grasped, I would say practice it all day everyday. When you lift a coffee cup, when you turn a doorknob, when you flush the toilet, everthing. In this way you are making this different way to move a habit. When you know longer have to think about the path and individual parts of the body, we would start going abstract. Much of the classics sound like the abstractions I use, but before you learn what you are trying to do - I find the abstractions are useless. In abstractions, we would play with movementum and balance to a finer degree. At some point we may play with some of the exercises in Chen Style to learn the coiling and releasing...this is one of the key abstractions IMO.

Eventually we would do push hands, chi sou, applications, sparring, etc. But this is just an intro on how I would start their training.

[Sam Wiley]

Water Dragon,
Exactly! Shock/shudder.:)

[maoshan]

My approuch is to teach both the same way, as has already been said with one exception, the one that want's to learn Qi-Gong only, I wouldn't make spar also in the fundamental stage I would add more time to certain components of the fundamentels.
Ex:
Every one that learns from me begins with The Embrace posture,
With the Qi-Man, I might make him do San Choy It depends on his desire. They have to stand 1hour period for 100 days.
The Qi-man will then begin reversed breathing while the fighter will stay at natural breathing for at lest another 3 months.
By the 6th month I would begin teaching the Qi-man the 12 meridian Qi-Gong as well as the 12 Guilding Light Qi-Gong.
The fighter would now learn reversed breathing which will enhance his feeling Chi in the 8 mother palms.

It's really all a matter of the individual. I've learned from quit a few teachers over time and I learned that every thing is not good for everyone. Attention must be paid to the development of the student and what works for that student.
They learn the same thing with different emphasis.
that's all

By the way, In truth you really can't write a short responce to this question, it requiers a bit more in particulars that we'd each end up writting a book.

Peace
Maoshan

[Zantesuken]

whoah moashan u sound like a sifu. how powerful is ur jing or tan tien?

[No_Know]

Great detail can't be given because great detail wasn't given. In general, They would both learn Dish Washing first~. Qigong type as you indicate, would get to stand. Internal~ Fighter type might learn vacuum cleaning.

This would only be after perhaps years of comprehension from talks we had in being friends, integrating my comprehensions and perceptions with the things a person experiences and goes through mentally, Heartily and daily~.

I No_Know

Originally posted by shaolinboxer
"I teach, you learn. "

Is it such a one way street?


with an attitude like that, it most certainly IS a one way street:

I learn, the teaching bounces off the student's ego without having any effect whatsoever.

[PaulTheSamurai]

In the old days Taiji masters could bounce grains of rice all the way up to the ceiling by dan tien action as a sign of their internal power.

I think that if you can launch a grain up rice 7 feet up in the air, then you have enough dan tien power to launch a bullet at your enemies from your dan tien!

I propose that we surgically embed a firing pin in the very deepest recesses of the belly button, and then select a bullet size that is appropriate for the person and pack it into the belly button - ready for action!

People with big "outties" could have a .44 magnum in their belly button, dainty women with little tiny "innies" would have a .22. Folks who are kind of fat, and have a deep, long belly button channel could load a rifle cartridge.

When the bad guy comes near, our hero can defeat him without raising a hand - they only need to suck in dan tien, aim the firing pin at the back of the bullet and give a mighty "heng...HA! BANG!!!" and firing the bullet into the evildoer!

The beauty of this is that it works for standing "heng...HA! BANG!" and is even more devastating if your opponent is a Jujitsu master and pulls you down to the ground and wraps their legs lovingly around you. Just when they think they have you in the classic mount position "heng...HA! BANG!" Point blank - right into a very tender part of the anatomy!

I have no doubt that ancient masters knew about this - guys like Yang ChengFu and Wang ShuJin could probably hide a howitzer shell in their belly buttons - who would know?

Of course, not everyone is capable of such great internal power. And clearly, some would rather just cultivate their qi.

If you just want to cultivate your qi, then I would follow what a Taiji instructor once told me - "go jogging". Jogging develops a lot of qi - it just doesn't do that much to circulate it. So you could have them do standing to focus their qi, and then relax their body so that the channels open up.

If jogging isn't mystical enough, you could have them dress up in a silly silk uniform, jog around in a circle for 8 steps, turn around and repeat. Remeber that delivery is everything, so speak in an asian accent, calling it "Bagua Circle Jogging".

Give it a try - go jogging or bike riding, and then, at the end, stop to do some standing...

For fighting - if they don't want the bullet in the belly button approach, then they should stand for a while, practice a lot of power gongs and then get good at 3 or 4 techniques and spar a lot. The only secret to being good at fighting is being able to handle the punishment of the necessary training.

[GeneChing]

Unlock Tai Chi. READ Understanding Tai Chi s Martial Perspective by (http://www.kungfumagazine.com/ezine/article.php?article=1597) Alan Ludmer

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[No_Know]

What internal martial art(s) thought can there be that is not from what has come before.

I think all later original thought can only be realizations of pre-existing established thought and pretexts; yet, the insight can be fresh and pure and true to original intent but not accepted, or provable to trueness except if it pans-out--mystical, mythical, fantastical that is doable should not be denied. But do not expect it to be believed, it will only be knowable by those with longsuffering correcting practice that finds its way to the Truth of high level mechanics blending breathing and other biomechanics.-Ernie Moore Jr.

Internal Art(s)-No one would understand to call it that. Much of the instruction given in this thread is using what was done before--more like arrangements than original music. The post request was for personal realization. Re reading some of the posts, it seems that that was not done. Try again? [Pleeeeeeeeeeease, no one put "Do; No, Try"]


No_Know

The guy who wants health, from my experience--move arms just inside his greatest reaches as you switch between breathe-in and breathe-out keep the moving steady-smoothe and constant. Expand and contract without understanding and also, at will. As the breath happens at a change in moving-keep the breath with that move keeping the direction of breath-deeper, more thick, but change the move or shift the direction of the move. The stomach is your new feet. Stand as you move. Each breath is a waterfall that drips to a pearl beneath and away from it.-EMJ Each drop adds to the pearl but the pearl does not increase in size yet brightens.-EMJ As he breathes-in, continue to breathe-in as you begin to breathe-out. Breathe out more than you breathe in--"Barely Breathe"[-EMJ] Posture: as if a broomstick is through the shoulders-connecting the shoulders. Lean forward at ankles. Knees over toes. Lean back at knees. Feet-toes point forward-heels point back--parallel, Hips in-front of heels, Back behind waist; aft arms brush ribs-elbows driving away from shoulders and are in the front half of Frontal Plane--at rib-sides ... carrying the torso-rotating it (the ribcage). Aft arms press-in on the latisumus muscles (without squeezing the shoulders) Upper-middle back-back and up-and upper back forward [This makes-"Forever Breathing"[-Ernie Moore Jr.]]. Muscle control must happen by skipping a connecting section. One must conceptualize placing Thought into an area and having no part of the body work but that spot or area. Essentially, one must be able to move only one section without requiring connected generation or conveyance from a physical engine elsewhere in the body: leverage must be at the Earth and happen almost at anyplace of the universe that is of the body--Example: the rubbing scrubbing motion of a hand holding a dish being washed and the washing hand happening without the waist twisting-moving the hips forward and backward.,,some-such, perhaps one might say. -Ernie Moore Jr.

The person who would like health from internal would also be asked to get down on the ground and get backup as much as they could and the day ends when they cannot get back-up...in five minutes sort of thing. They would be given moves and asked to do them until they feel they have to stop. And then, do it some more until you feel you cannot and then do it again until you feel it can't until your limbs are asked to and they just don't work like you are asking them to.-Ernie Moore Jr.

The Health interested person would be told to imagine an attack happening to them and avoid it...but this was after class or lesson--[There are no lessons in Squirrel--[I cannot teach Squirrel-but, whatever you get-out-of-whatever, whatever-whatever--If you learn something, so-be-it]], throughout the day in the everyday living-the Squirrel practitioner is to conceptualize being attacked--in the car, laying-down, sitting, walking--things thrown or shot, grabs...it's like the Nightmare On Elm Street Guy contracted out for a variety of attacks like in some of the movies, from impossible places--this mental alertness and creative thinking invigorates-to cope with surprise attacks throughout a day and helps limberness--Fave Example is a spear stabbing through the back of the car seat or up through the seat. Dodging cannot always happen, but what is significant is the attempt to move appropriately to an unsuspected all-of-a-sudden potentially hurtful-lethal move-attack. This is Healthy.-Ernie Moore Jr.

The guy who wants martial and fighting from internal-my experience, as far as first things is-he would write the Chinese characters for Squirrel [Sung Shu] one thousand times with each hand. There's a certain hand grip for a pen or a brush. It can take weeks to months perhaps. To write that much from the designed assigned posture, requires a breathing. Also, He would spend a day falling to the floor and getting-up (direction might be given on mechanics for both falling and for getting back up)...falling from the knees first, then sometime later from standing. If I had a school--I thought they would do it as they understood but it doesn't stop until they feel they would not be able to get back-up, but they would get down on the ground instead of necessarily falling.-Ernie Moore Jr.

My understanding to teach one a fighting by internal is to have them conceptualize the technique hitting the target...yet the target does not stop moving, Conceptualize that they resist or evade. Conceptualize that the opponent is stronger and your technique fails--see ways you lose....Conceptualize the opponent is faster and he misses the technique success zone--how does failure look with impending defeat...Conceptualize the person is more Agile and counters and moves to submit or injure your limb where can you be hit and where can you be hurt and see it feel it do again, Fail again, now, prevent immediate defeat...see that fail...repeat this multiple opponents different heights, different sizes, different experiences, different Strength, different Deftnesses, more Agility...attacking while reversing or countering somewhere other than the reverse or counter... Move to your opponent but realize the persons sneaking around you while you are distracted with a technique on one person you can see who presents h er/im self. Move so those sneaking you fail. [Essentially Squirrel has no attack. If anyone gets hurt, let it be me. [Am to be conditioned to where attacked yet stay fit and their attacks are of no consequence. No Ripples of payback. No repercussions [if do not get potentially irreparably hurt]] every attack makes more vulnerable...There was one attack...It's a kill. Squirrel does not fight].

The Martial fighter wanna be through internal would be directed to kick his own legs not to hurt but contact and build force of impact like adding a sheet of paper to a sheet of paper repeatedly until one has a ream. Understand he is as if moored in cement up to his stomach. Kick until he could not kick and then kick again until his leg stopped moving as he was asking it to move. Move without effort. Think the move. Understand you would like to move, yet lack a conscious will-of-Effort, and yet move as much as can if can...no strength.-Ernie Moore Jr.

They would learn the same concepts, but the exercises would occur in different order. In Ernie Moore Jr.'s Kung-Fu (attempt), Squirrel-is muchly breathing with understanding and or or breathing with movement, what one learns for health is in the framework of martial; yet martial does not work if the mechanics of practical martial is not understructured by reasonable mechanics of Healthy.-Ernie Moore Jr.

Martial experience is empty with such limited experience but your own training partners and same mind set of perspectives-again based on one's own personal experience in training and fighting only. It works for your world but not necessarily in all the Real world of different experience, different training, different foes- different strengths-stronger, faster, more agile, greater endurance, relentless, malicious... also, with different experience, and without the pool of analysis of centuries of fighting of tips and tricks for what misses and what works personal experience alone and without research of ways to be is perhaps lacking.-Ernie Moore Jr.


No_Know

[YinOrYan]

[Essentially Squirrel has no attack. If anyone gets hurt, let it be me. [Am to be conditioned to where attacked yet stay fit and their attacks are of no consequence. No Ripples of payback. No repercussions [if do not get potentially irreparably hurt]] every attack makes more vulnerable...There was one attack...It's a kill. Squirrel does not fight].


There's a Kung Fu lineage that claims to go back to Mo Tzu that is mostly defensive. I cannot find the book right now, but I think its a Greek guy that wrote it. I've seen squirrels fight each other pretty hard but not hurt each other. The Opposum is an animal that is highly defensive, where they will play dead so well that most preditors do not even want to eat them. That's also a really good response if the Police want to beat you up. Curl up and harden all your week spots. The only place you can fight them is in the courts. Pehaps you should create an Ernie Opposum Style Kung Fu, haha

[No_Know]

I read in Greek...not so much understand most words but muchly can read.. If you got a title for me to look-up, I could with Internet perhaps do that.

No_Know

[No_Know]

It was thunderstorm conditions developing. I was closing my post with the Title last thing. Laptop direct power only so loss of power meant loss of what I was putting-up to post. I Batteried this lap top from a near and other laptop of kind And fat-fingered-the keyboard. Got a duplicate window and Two of the same post-one after the other on the same thread. But I had not finished reading all of the post to which I was responding.[Power did go out...but the glow of my laptop just batteried was lighting the darkerness].

Fight the Police in Courts is good- Use Opossum Kung-Fu.? YinOrYan mused it, but here-goes. O.K. Opossum-Squirrel to fight Police--YinOrYan is right to not fight police directly. A dog or pet is abused by children and warns them--it shows teeth and growls-Adults are told of the animal by weeping dramatic children considered babies. The animal defending, not hurting others, gets put-down...in kind, a Negro did not have a recourse once accused even wrongly. No longer property and finally not a Negro. Finally socially acceptable as human over three-hundred years later considerable as people a Large Black man stopped by Police is at risk stereotypically, not by racism so-much as by bias-or prejudging--they are strong; strong is scary; they could beat me I need to put-on a bigger show of force to stand-them-down for this potential attack I am imagining where I lose-I'll show Him we need a united effort that they won't win...

...presumption of imminent attack by a Black person facilitates a Be-Strong bias to the engagement. Smart People predisposed to how things will result is a non-listening person just waiting to a predetermined endpoint of resistance. They drive for it. They wait for it.-Ernie Moore Jr.

It was night and lights came-on I went to pull-over it was oddly a bank parking lot. I did a thing, and when he got close enough, there was pleasant relief with astonishment in his voice. I had stopped the car. And was waiting with the window rolled-down and my driver's license out of the wallet, between my fingers my hands open, visible and out the window, forearm resting on the door. In his pleasantly surprised voice he asked If I was from DC [Washington, the District of Columbia I presume]. [I did not drive around there to where I could understand if that was a protocol in that city or what] But we talked and the point seems to be to address the Law Enforcement Officer's concerns--speeding talk about speed limit signs or intersections or stop lights stop signs. But it should be something warranted-some observable reason besides you look guilty...how do you directly connect me to the crime or violation you had in mind before you got to the vehicle...What is the warranted reason for this stop...and thank them if they warn you about something, warnings are nice things, Thank you for that. some-such, perhaps.-Ernie Moore Jr.

But first thing is bear-down on the core of what the LEO stopped you for. Treat the officer like a guest. They might be hostile, but that means trying to look for fairness it weighs on the side of being disagreeable towards you if they want an excuse to harass you. What I say might fail where LEO's wanna press you, but if you get some that are on the fence or genuine think they are addressing a matter of keeping law-a stop is about checking things-out and seeing where things are.-Ernie Moore Jr.

Try to politely...Yes Officer, What's going on...Not: do not suggest possible enfractions that in psychology might look like you are diverting attention, Are guilty of crime and trying to de-escalate the concerns of the officer...hiding something...Do not try to talk-around a Cop; do not try to think! around a Cop. A Legitimate Police-Sheriff, Cop, LEO is addressing a raised flag seeing if there is anything to see and satisfying observable concerns if not Warranted you both go on about your evening or your day.-Ernie Moore Jr.

Yes officer?--This allows the LEO opportunity to express the concerns that made the stop happen. When these are addressed there is no more cause for the detention-Ernie Moore Jr. This is in general and there is a matter of handling out of the car...

Ernie Moore Jr.'s Kung-Fu (attempt) Squirrel's LEO Opossom:Open hands--you are not shooting or potentially stabbing if your hands are visibly empty and not holding.
---hold arms out like Christ on a steak or cross--full extension has no quick or slight push-pull move a jittery watcher might mistake for grabbing or going for a weapon (yada, yada, yada--they felt threatened so they shot the big strong Black man, or the man with long hair, or the guy with tattoos, or the person with facial hair, or the person wearing jean pants, baggy clothes, unkempt hair, too light, too brown, looked Native American, might have been Hindu, was barefooted, had messed-up teeth, their eyebrow twitched (there's no helping that...). Different regions might have their specific local prejudgings that they accept as an excuse to shoot under a banner of self defense...in Squirrel-limit the obvious excuses by rendering them physically impossible...

***Not holding if open-handed--can't shoot

***Arms out like Christ on the Crucifix--arms not by body; hands Not together. Tired arms; lower them stiff-arm below your hips--palm-out or palm up
open hand.

***kneel if you cannot lie-down stretched out.

if face-down (turned to side for more comfort-so to rest on ground and answer questions--answer concerns more than bring-up your own.-EMJ)
Hands-palms to the sky.

if face-up Hands-palms down??? perhaps again to the sky so visible you are not holding-greatest potential for no threat-Ernie Moore Jr.


if being beaten, unlike YinOrYan's example of opossum to curl to take it, stay open, take some damage for winning in court[cough] if it gets there that far...They can use any moment you cover to claim belief of imminent threat-you were going for something to potentially do harm [cough] (even if justified as they were beating you).

If it gets to court and asked what did the defendant say that was offensive?...Yes officer, Thank you officer... Kind words and courtesy "heaps coals on the forehead" of anyone trying to say you are a wrongdoer or malicious in the ears of the objective hearer or Judge. If you Squirreled--left yourself exposed--positioned yourself for transparency and took hits without retaliation, used only polite words, it gets to be blaringly obvious any wrong act or behavior situationally on behalf of the LEOs.-Ernie Moore Jr.

Disclaimer:
If writing was talking I speak with conviction, not with certainty. I am none of these people. I assess situations conceptually. That is the only authority I could claim for this. Whatever is truth and real is that which it has been, until it changes.-Ernie Moore Jr.

As Far as a Style...
Opossum-Squirrel,,,I would not have thought of that but I did take a request and made one. It was for Hamster or Dog--either name same techniques--it is an exercise of one legged fighting. I am thinking of One incorporating Opossum under Squirrel principles Like to Hear It? Here It Go-a show In Living Color (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QfzDUpB88x4) Note: Cute and not exactly pertinent.

Squirrel has something Body Armor Squirrel--it is moving the bone, to wind-up the muscle-this makes a slight plate. I am a cripple and use crutches to stand long or locomote in a semblance to support for what approaches walking. None-the-less... If I was being attacked and trying to get away I could use Squirrel's Opossum Kung-Fu, It would go like this...

Hop Gar has Four Guardian Stances I only recall the one as Ape or Gorilla it is Tibetan or a Lama Kung Fu. Not using that but showing the concept of an anchor stance... Also, Hua Tuo Five Animal Frolick Tiger, Deer, Monkey, Bird, Bear. Where Hung gar has five stances that can incorporate to every step of a Hung Family form, The Lama Guardian Stances and Five Animals Frolick of Hua Tuo address specific situations and combine arms or hands with legs--that makes these nine things techniques more than stances although they can be considered postures; stances should be reserved solely for one handset-fists by sides.-Ernie Moore Jr.

So...Playing-dead in each posture, I should employ a Body Armor Squirrel in a posture I am willing to take a hit as I move from one location to another.-Ernie Moore Jr.

I am kind-of Just! doing this...But I would like to result something logical and perhaps useful.. I should "Talk"-about it back at The Existance of Squirrel Kung-Fu thread. http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?4619-The-existance-of-Squirrel-Kung-Fu

I might need a few days before I could make a basic video of it and that posted to Youtube...Good mention YinOrYan

No_Know

[YinOrYan]

Also, Hua Tuo Five Animal Frolick Tiger, Deer, Monkey, Bird, Bear. Where Hung gar has five stances that can incorporate to every step of a Hung Family form, The Lama Guardian Stances and Five Animals Frolick of Hua Tuo address specific situations and combine arms or hands with legs--that makes these nine things techniques more than stances although they can be considered postures; stances should be reserved solely for one handset-fists by sides.-Ernie Moore Jr.


Interesting you should mention the Five Animals Frolick, because I've noticed the Bear is often similar to Squirrel. In some Native languages they are the same word prefixed by big or small, just like horse and dog are. Also, the way that is often recommended to deal with an agressive Grizzly is to lock your hands behind your neck and cover your face with your elbows so it doesn't scratch up your neck and face. The same position would probably keep one alive if a knee was pressed down on your neck.

In regards to that book, its in English but the author is from Greece. I'm sure I have it on the other side of the border since I now have all my other kung fu books on the shelf here right now. When they reopen the border, I can tell you the name of the book, but the Covid thing is worse over there at the moment and crossing the border is especially one of those zones where your standard kung fu animals do not apply...