Weight training question

[lowsweep]

I have been doing 4 sets of dumbell bench press with sets/reps of
10-12 / 7-9 / 7-9 / 4-6 and going to almost failure at every set. It has worked extremely well for me, but I have a question. Sometimes I load on too much weight, as I put on extra almost every time I do it, and can only do 4 or five reps in the first set. In the next sets I will take a little weight off so I can complete the rest as normal, is this a good idea? Or should I stick with the same weight and just do as many reps as I can in each set?

thanks,
adam

[Silumkid]

Sounds like you have "stumbled" onto a technique commonly known as drop sets or strip sets aka reverse pyramid.

Basically, you start with your heaviest weight and work your way down (lighter) in small increments. Some of the strongest guys I know LOVE to train this way.

As long as you aren't sacrificing form to get the weight up, you should be fine. Just make sure you are warmed up well before you drop right in to your heaviest weight.

[IronFist]

Don't always go to failure. You'd probably be better stopping a rep or two before failure.

But if you're making progress your way don't let me stop you. Do what works :)

Iron

[lowsweep]

If I try doing drop sets, should the reps decrease with each set too? Should they stay the same? Should they decrease with each set? Thanks for the info Iron and Silumkid

[harry_the_monk]

different people do different things that work for them...
if you are working to failure, do just that(work to failure), so that sometimes you may end up doing more sometimes less, it can all depend upon how much rest you are getting between sets, and how heavy your wieght is in relation to your strength(amongst other factors).

Sometimes(this works best on machines if you want very little rest), I do my last rep I can push out on the weight I have set drop the weight slightly and immediatly push out as many on that weight as possible, then drop and do the same again, and again, and again, etc., until I am left straining my a$$ on like a 1kg weight!!! :D thing is when you do that in the gym, you usually find that the girl everyone has the hots for in the gym is walking in and watchin you strain your a$$ over a weight she wouldn't even want to be warming up with.[not that i am talking from experience on that matter:D )

seriously though, if you are doing that be careful as you are potentially straining more muscle fibres by training that way, it just depends on your goals I guess...

[wtsihing]

1) try pyramiding as well. start light(er) and then go heavier each following set.

2) also try alternating sets. heavy 1st set. lighten up 2nd set. increase weight beyond weight of 1st set on 3rd set. lighten up on 4th set (but not lighter than weight on 2nd set) repeat process until satisfied or until failure. (you'll burn your muscles out short-term if you go to failure each workout).

3) there is also circuit training which is moving from one exercise to another without pausing to rest in between. you do all your set as you would your other workouts, only you do the 1st set of every muscle group you're working, then 2nd set, etc. it's good to mix in 5 minute cardio sets. this will really work you.

The body adapts to training routines in about 6 weeks time and the results aren't as great, so it's good to vary your types of routines, their order, weight, duration, etc. always mix in a day of rest per week. your body will respond to the workouts better this way. eat efficient, high energy foods as well.

good training.

[grogan]

There are so many different exercises for each different muscle and so many theories for how to do these exercises that it is really up to you to find what works on your body. A book that I can highly recommend which has every different conceivable exercise routine is 'Arnold Swarzennegers Modern Encyclopedia of Bodybuilding' (I am pretty sure that is the title can't check as I have leant it to a friend). This book is a great cheap buy and has stacks of info from exercises,body types, cardio, different supplements, and varying health info. I know I sound like a salesman for this but remember when you first met your Sifu and you suddenly realised you know nothing about martial arts even though you thought you were da man! Thats what it is like reading this book. Sifu Arnie;)

[NPMantis]

The best book on training in called 'Brawn' (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/9963616089/qid=1012065060/sr=2-2/ref=sr_2_11_2/103-3555249-2513436), it is a completely different approach to other books.

You are not a professional body builder thus should not train as one. I would recommend a book concentrating on showing you the exercises - first concentrate on perfect form - I have been lifting weights for about 7 years, about 2 1/2 years seriously and for the first 1-2 months liften nothing but the bar, your form in the most important thing primarily. Once you have this over a period of a month gradually build up to lifting you maximum.

Don't do 4 sets unless you have been training properly (ie. minimum twice a week without fail) for at least 6 months, you should lift a warmup set (half your max) always before you go to lift your max and should then lift 2 sets, build up by addiding na additional set every month but be careful, you will overwork your muscle if your body cannot physically cope with the demands and will not recover in time before your next training day thus you will not get the benefits you are looking for.

I train twice a week, 6 exercises a day (all heavy compound exercises - ie. using 2 joints, eg. bench or squat, 1 x warm-up set and 2 x heavy of each) and have much better results than when I used to go 3-4 times a week and spend 2-3 hours in gym doing 15 exerecises.

Try this for 3 months if you don't believe me, you will not believe the gains you make.

It is a myth that more is good - weight lifting tears muscle fibres and they grow back stronger, you must give them time to grow back or you will never reach your peak.

Trust me get that book, it's amazing (and quite cheap compared to others!) ps. I have no connections to author!

Let me know how it goes mate!

[IronFist]

It is a myth that more is good - weight lifting tears muscle fibres and they grow back stronger, you must give them time to grow back or you will never reach your peak.

The right kind of weight training doesn't really tear the muscle at all, but instead trains the nervous system to contract the muscle harder. This is how strength gains without size can be made.

The book "Power to the People" by Pavel Tsatsouline addresses almost everything you would need to know about this subject.

Iron

[lowsweep]

"The right kind of weight training doesn't really tear the muscle at all, but instead trains the nervous system to contract the muscle harder. This is how strength gains without size can be made."

If this is true then why do I need to get so much protein, etc. and wait several days before lifting with the same muscles again? I thought the idea was to let the muscle cells repair themselves and allow time for them to grow. If I am only training my nervous system to contract the muscle harder, can gains in strength be made just as well without getting protein and the proper diet?

[NPMantis]

LowSweep - you do need a proper diet, did Arnies' muscles get massive through contraction speed? No, the fibres were torn and rebuilt continually, this is the biological process of all weight lifting. Muscle is only 30% protein, while this is important it is not the be all and end all of muscle fuel. Carbohydrates are also equally important and proper sleep to aid your body's recovery. Oh, and forget all these 'supplements' people try to sell you - they do not work, the only thing which works are steroids - but I am not recommending them, they have so many bad side effects!

[IronFist]

If this is true then why do I need to get so much protein, etc. and wait several days before lifting with the same muscles again?

If you're lifting to gain mass, then you need to rest and eat a lot of protein, as protein is the building block of muscles.

If you're lifting to gain strength and NOT mass, then you can lift weights almost every day for the same body part. This doesn't require as much protein because the muscle is not being broken down (well, it is, very minimally, however)

Now, let me elaborate before I get flamed.

The two types of workouts are entirely different. They're as different as a bodybuilder's workout and a powerlifter's workout.

Here's a sample of each kind, for comparison purposes:

Mass gaining workout for chest:
Bench, 6 sets, pyramiding up, minimal rest between sets. 135x10 (warmup), 185x8, 205x8, 225x6, 245x4, 175 to failure (last set)
Dumbell flies: 40's x 10, 60's to failure
Cable Crossovers: a bunch of sets with various weight, some to failure maybe

Now, this workout will tire out the chest to the extent that you will probably be sore the next few days, and shouldn't work out chest for like a week or so.


Strength gaining workout for chest:
Bench, 2 sets, 5 minutes rest between sets, 200 x 5, 180 x 5.
That's it. From here, the next day you can work out the same thing again, increasing the starting weight by 5 pounds. Each day you can increase the starting weight by 5 pounds (the second weight is always 90% of the first one). Always start a cycle (the first day) with a low weight and build it up by adding 5 pounds per day over about 2 weeks. When you can't complete 5 reps on the first set, take a few days off and then start over.

This workout doesn't require as much protein, as it is NOT a mass gaining routine. However, you will gain much more strength much quicker than you will with a mass gaining program.

I thought the idea was to let the muscle cells repair themselves and allow time for them to grow.

Right, provided they've been torn down by a mass building workout.

If I am only training my nervous system to contract the muscle harder, can gains in strength be made just as well without getting protein and the proper diet?

You always need a proper diet and protein, but if you're not aiming for mass you don't need as much protein or total calories. Working out does not make you big, caloric surplus makes you big.

Iron

[NPMantis]

IronFist, the method you describe is called powerlifting. It is used by professional 'strong men', and I can assure you they do not do this every day - it also tears the muscle, all training with weights does, how do you think it grows in size? It is biological fact that a bigger muscle is a stronger muscle.

A typical powerlifter will train in bench one day, deadlift another and squat on another as the exertion for each exercise is so great. You also have to accept that they have been doing it for years so will train in a completely different way to an ordinary person, they have already build up a solid foundation of core strength.

[IronFist]

IronFist, the method you describe is called powerlifting. It is used by professional 'strong men', and I can assure you they do not do this every day - it also tears the muscle,

I can assure you the method I described is done every day. The muscle damage is negligible.


all training with weights does (tear the muscle) , how do you think it grows in size? It is biological fact that a bigger muscle is a stronger muscle. p

Yes, but it is also a "bilogical fact" that a muscle can gain strength without growing in size.


A typical powerlifter will train in bench one day, deadlift another and squat on another as the exertion for each exercise is so great.

That is one way of doing it, yes.

Iron

[NPMantis]

I am sorry but what you are saying is incorrect, it is a bioological fact that a muscle has to grow to become stronger - you are telling me that you can honestly doing a heavy compound exercise every day with no muscle tearing (which is how it becomes stronger) or growth and become stronger? Try going to a weight lifting forum and saying that, you will be laughed off the forum. I had a look at the book and although the ideas are interesting some of its methodology does lack the fundamental biological principles which are known throughout the world about the system of strength training.

By the way, I am not trying to be argumentative (I hope you don't take offence).

Take care,

Mantis

[ElPietro]

Originally posted by NPMantis
I am sorry but what you are saying is incorrect, it is a bioological fact that a muscle has to grow to become stronger - you are telling me that you can honestly doing a heavy compound exercise every day with no muscle tearing (which is how it becomes stronger) or growth and become stronger? Try going to a weight lifting forum and saying that, you will be laughed off the forum. I had a look at the book and although the ideas are interesting some of its methodology does lack the fundamental biological principles which are known throughout the world about the system of strength training.

By the way, I am not trying to be argumentative (I hope you don't take offence).

Take care,

Mantis

Umm..your pretty much wrong in most of what you are saying...just as an FYI. Anyone who knows anything about weightlifting knows what powerlifting and strength training is...and if you said what you just said on any of the bodybuilding forums I'm on they'd laugh you off the board.

All the initial strength gains you get when you first start working out is due to neural adaptation, which your body has optimized itself then strength starts to come through muscle tissue re-growth. Although power training with high weights 1-5 reps close to your 1RM will allow your nervous system to recruit more and more motor units to perform the lift. This will occur regardless of a increase in hypertrophy.

Training as you recommend for hypertrophy only will give you weakest but biggest body, so sure you'll have nice big looking weak muscles and that's it. Then some skinny kid coming in who knows what he's doing will outlift you on his warmup sets. I know guys that are 160lbs deadlifting close to 500lbs, and they are ripped, not super musclebound or anything. Please learn anatomy and muscle physiology and then start correcting people.

Oh and please list these bodybuilding forums and I will argue directly with your source of misinformation. I'm assuming that you've simply misunderstood something that's been said and posted here.

[IronFist]

I am sorry but what you are saying is incorrect, it is a bioological fact that a muscle has to grow to become stronger - you are telling me that you can honestly doing a heavy compound exercise every day with no muscle tearing (which is how it becomes stronger) or growth and become stronger?

Yes.

Try going to a weight lifting forum and saying that, you will be laughed off the forum.

I don't think so. I am a regular at the Anabolic Extreme forum, which is by far the best bb'ing forum ever. Don't say to me "oh but what about t-mag" because the people at t-mag are fùcking clueless and their message board is nothing but a giant píssing contest. (maybe you don't like t-mag, but a lot of people do and so I thought I'd address that here). Not that it's relevent, but the point is that almost everyone at AE agrees with what I am saying here. Why? Because they know their stuff. Now, most of them don't subscribe to this training practice because they're mostly hardcore BB'ers, but contrary to what you think, I am not "laughed off" the board when I make refrence to it.

...book... some of its methodology does lack the fundamental biological principles which are known throughout the world about the system of strength training.

Um, I don't think so.

By the way, I am not trying to be argumentative (I hope you don't take offence).

I don't take offence :)

What ElPeitro said is correct.

By the way, since I have stopped BB'ing I have not only gotten smaller, but much, much stronger. Crazy, eh? :D

Iron