Attention Tainan

[Stacey]

Seeing how your are the one of the few interesting posters, please tell me all about yourself, your training, etc. It sounds intersting.

[Tainan Mantis]

Train PM 3 mornings and evenings each week.
Weapons 5 times a week.

In class everything should have a clear connection on how it will help your fighting.

2 person drills that are randomly mixed is the traditional way and the way we do it also.

I look at each student and say to myself,"what if this person decides to become a teacher?"
So I try to teach as if they will all become teachers themselves. This means that there is no holding back of material or putting it on the "High Shelf"

I teach this way so that I can have many hi-quality training partners whose goal is to be better than me(probably not that difficult).

For weapons we start on double broadsword after they have learned the first easy form (24 moves).

I used to start on stick, but most people don't have enough energy to learn both stick or spear and PM.

Again, it is the stress on 2 man exercises.
To do the 2 man stick and spear drills requires a certain speed and intensity that is very draining. For short weapons less so.

Usually you have to learn the whole form before learning the 2 man, but I don't like it that way. Most techniques are easy enough by themselves to drill with a partner, especially double bees.
So the learn the 2 person drills for stationary and footwork and then the 1 man form and then the 2 man form
Then move on.

[Stacey]

Pretty much the same on this side of the lake. I was told that switching between sets was to build reactions for fighting. Its hard not to get confused. Do you call out which set and start at the begginging or at trasitions, such as twist punches do you just attack and they can start in the middle of another set?

[Tainan Mantis]

Theoretically speaking, if you have learned several of the PM 2 man sets you should be able to switch from one 2 man set to an other at will.
In practical usage this becomes very difficult as there is a large amount of information to think about. This causes you to perform at a slower speed with the mind focused on all the different techniques and where the changes are.

I disagree with this approach of having many 2 man sets to jump between and the history of MA seems to support my argument.

When studying MA from the Ming dynasty we find that forms of a style are very short and few in number. For example; PM has only 2 or 3 forms at most. Furthermore old forms are shorter. When there is an exception, like old Taiji we find the form to be very repetitive.
Forms from the end of the Ming are a good example of a good tool for training because that period of history is especially chaotic; revolution from within, bandits in massive numbers and invaders trying to usurp the thrown.
This put people in a situation where they had to kill , in some cases, on a daily basis.

So the MA they developed are effective for this reason. So in training we don't concentrate on the 2 man form the way your post indicates to me that you do.

Instead the concentration is on a short drill of about 3 moves. After it is performed so that students no longer think about what they do they learn another similar drill. When both drills are done well it is very easy to explain the change point(from the theory of 12 flexible) and then the change back and forth happens without thinking about what we are doing.

Once you have to slow down or think then you know you have too many techniques.

[Stacey]

oh ok. In 8 step we do two man tan tui. They are in sets of 3 movements. It would be more like switching between those?

I find it usefull to do both for reaction training.

what are the sets called?

[Tainan Mantis]

I didn't know there was an 8 step school that taught the 2 man tan tuei.
But, that is the idea, switching from one drll to another in those 2 man sets of tan tuei is a good exercise.

You want to know the name of what sets?
If Tan tuei, do you do 10 or 12 route version?

[Stacey]

10

[Tainan Mantis]

Stacey,
If you give me your fax # I can send them over.
Each set has a poem and would be very time consuming(for me) to make a translation that sounds good.

[baldmantiz]

stacey....could you give a description on what tan tui is/consists of?

[Stacey]

kind of hard to explain, you can ask Sifu Cimino to show you. He lives in Buffalo too.

[EARTH DRAGON]

Please dont take this the wrong way but you are incorrect, tainan is right,there is not an 8 step school that teaches 2man sets master shyun doesn not know the 2 man tantuei. We have gone over this many years ago and master shyun never leaned any of wei's 2 man sets. I have even been lucky enough to recieve from tainan the 7 hands 2 man set and I can assure you they are not taught in our 8 step program. I think you are reffering to the 2 person body coordinations.

However please refrain from telling my students to learn anything from mike cimeno, for baldmatis is my student and outranked mike cimeno when he met him! Master shyun came to our school and did a seminar the month mike cimeno joined 8 step in 1997. The only reason that baldmantis is not a in the sifu program is becuse I would not allow him to pay the 5,000 that mike cimeno paid to become a sifu in the that ridiculous program. It is a way to inspire young students to shell out cash to learn at an accelerated rate, I should know I lived in san fransiso with master shyun when he came up with the idea. it is the same as a TKD offering a black belt program... you pay for what you get!
and I never felt comfotable by trying to talk my students into it I felt to bad.It took me 6 years to become a sifu and in no way can you learn all the info in 3 impossible unless of corse you arent concerned with really knowing the material and just going over it, which is what that money making program is all about......

[EARTH DRAGON]

Please dont take this the wrong way but you are incorrect, tainan is right, there is not an 8 step school that teaches 2man sets master shyun doesn not know the 2 man tantuei. We have gone over this many years ago and master shyun never leaned any of wei's 2 man sets. I have even been lucky enough to recieve from tainan the 7 hands 2 man set and I can assure you they are not taught in our 8 step program. I think you are reffering to the 2 person body coordinations.

However please refrain from telling my students to learn anything from mike cimeno, for baldmatis is my student and outranked mike cimeno when he met him! Master shyun came to our school and did a seminar the month mike cimeno joined 8 step in 1997. The only reason that baldmantis is not a in the sifu program is becuse I would not allow him to pay the 5,000 that mike cimeno paid to become a sifu in the that ridiculous program. It is a way to inspire young students to shell out cash to learn at an accelerated rate, I should know I lived in san fransiso with master shyun when he came up with the idea. it is the same as a TKD offering a black belt program... you pay for what you get!

[baldmantiz]

thank you for your suggestion stacey but i will decline on that offer for personal reasons...i mean no disrespect

[Stacey]

with all due respect, you can't assure me of anything. YOu insisted that no one except sifus learned young sparrow set and the kids class does it in authorized 8 step schools. Yes I do know the two man set to chi sau. You learn the two man sets in red sash. Anyway, I'm not trying to start a fight, we do both two man tan tui and two man sets. I heard that all this stuff used to be "secret" but its not anymore.

Tainan. I don't have a fax machine, but my friend does, she'll give me the number tommorow, I can get it translated, thanx a lot.

What are the poems like? are they long or are they like" Hang the vase on a hook" "Crouching tiger hidden dragon"?

I know that most of the techniques in 8 step have paragraph long poetry about tigers and what not. Am I way off base?

[EARTH DRAGON]

You live in NJ right? and your sifu is jack right? did he tell you that I called him, and tried to find out who you were but he told me he has no girl named stacey other than a 12 year old girl in the kids calss a while back. he also assureed me that he has no girls that are above blue sash, so would you please come clean and tell me your name and why you insist on portraying a girl on this board. I am not mad at you although you assume and think you know way to much for not being a senoir student, but anyways I think your perception is not from your own experience and hevally influnenced by others, so if you could be a man and admitt who you are and please tell us why you his behind a girls idenity to find things out. Again I am not mad just curious..thanks and for god sake you havent even met mike cimeno so please stop reffering to him as a good teacher and the know all of 8 step.In 11 years in 8 step I forgot more than he has learned in his short time of joining , he doesnt even have his own school but rents time at a gym 2 hours a week...PS look on th 8 step.com website and look under news and you will find my face on a thank you article for giving a seminar at jacks school....... I taught jack a lot of things that he never learned.......so you should show a little respect for other siifu's .........

[Stacey]

Dear EarthDragon, This topic was for Tainan Mantis, I addressed him. Its not always about you. The only reason I suggested Sifu Cimino is because this information is relatively new to the schools and I didn't think you knew it. Your still an amazing martial artist that knows amazing things about chi kung. For two man sets, I would personally visit Sifu Cimino. Thats all. I have nothing against you. I understand that you are protective about your students, I'm sorry if I offended you. I didn't mean to undermine your authority, I was under the impression that these things were done traditionally.

[Tainan Mantis]

These manuscripts have 7 characters per road.
They are not rhyming poems, but they have rhythm and can be said as you performs the sets.

The sets don't sound as exotic as the 2 examples you gave. From the manuscripts I have read(not a few), southern style has the better sounding names, while the northern is more technical in nature(excluding TJPM).

As for 8 Step manuscripts, if you can find someone to translate you may want to consider tackling those manuscripts.
Many of those names are technical in nature and can only be translated by someone who has learned the forms. For example the word DIAO which we all call the hooking hand only has this meaning in PM. So a non-PM person would translate HOOK HAND as WICKED HAND or CUNNING HAND, just to let you know what kind of difficulties you encounter in translating from Chinese to English.

Several names in GM Wei's writings have a more romantic sound which translates into English like something out of a Shaw Brothers kung fu flick.

Since you mentioned that you learned the chi sho 2 man, I am curious to know if the two man for the following forms are also taught:
-Lipi
-dzai Yao forms 1-6
-Pai an. This can be considered a crucial form for this style as all the fighting techniques of 8 Step can be added to this form, or you can say that it is the base from which all techniques of 8 Step can be launched.

For Plum flower and 7* people it is very similar to the 2 man of the same name, but incorporate Ditang Chuen.

There was also a dzai yao 7th route made of ditang chuen in 8 Step, but I heard that it most likely became extinct as GM Wei couldn't teach it in his twilight years and the previuos generation also didn't pass it on.

[EARTH DRAGON]

No problem , I am sorry for getting hissy, I too am curoius as to when master shyun leared the 2 man for I have asked him before and he said he never learned the 2 man and master Wei's manuscripts were burned in the fire that greg started at the noriega school. So I would be curious to hear you explian Lipi,
dzai Yao forms 1-6 and Pai an in 2 man form. So please describe thanks

[Stacey]

Pi An and Zhi Yao are advanced sets,

I know Li Pi, thats third set. Two person as well.

there is an indoor version that seems more intricate, I've seen it once, but couldn't remember what I saw. It got too complicated after the facing palm to elbow break.

Its pretty much like the single person set, it ends in ba bu after the sweeps and the mantis kick to the stomache.

I heard that the first movement was really an armbreak/takedown( but not an armbar?), I don't know but it seems plausible since its the bone breaking set.


Tainan, how does your 7 hands set go, is it the palms with sidekick or the fists that end in a fronk kick at the end of the line.

Does yours end with a testicle rip?

[Tainan Mantis]

Chi sho is one of the very first 2 man sets I learned from my teacher.
Since I had been practicing under different teachers of varied styles for about 7 years prior and no one ever even mentioned that a one man form can be linked together into a two man form i felt, at the time, that I had reached a new level of enlightenment. Or a new level of understanding of the purpose of doing forms(that feeling later went away).

Since this form is so short and doesn't require tremendous physical exertion we spent a lot of time repeating it over and over.

Since our solo sets are most likely identical you should find my explanation close to yours if not the same.

1.Opponents square off in "mantis grabs cicada posture"
original form:step to right stance right back hand
Defender: left stance left block

O:stealing hand technique right Deng pu throw
D:shift stance to left, left punch face

O: Left knife hand sprout kick technique
D:step back to left stance, left go-lo-tsai

O: right knife hand sprout kick technique
D: step back to right stance, right go-lo-tsai technique

O:step to left stance right go-lo- over hand palm(pi zhang)
D:left high block

O:left grab(D's left high block) using stealing hand method, twist step with right folded elbow technique(Stacey, is this were you apply the groin strike?)
D: step out before O can grab hair and deliver knee to face technique(or Stacey's groin strike).

O: right side kick before D gets out of range(this and the prevoius O technique are taught as a basic left and right exercise in Secret door PM before students learn any forms)
D:left stance block side kick

O:right stance right back hand
D:left stance left block.
Now I become O and step forward into right stance right back hand

O: now I become D and step back into left stance left high block

Of interesting note is how we learned variations to this after we had practiced countless times.

First. defender, in beginning of form "mantis grabs cicada posture" retreats one step when O attacks so that he does a right stance right block insted of left.

This means that O performs the same movement but the following throw is now a deng ta throw as opposed to a deng pu throw.

D must perform the rolling hand method to escape and the 2 man form continues normally

Second, when defender blocks O's sidekick he uses O's forward momentum as his opportunity to go behind and strike the back of O's head.
O counters with grabbing cicada throw.
D escapes and 2 man form continues.

After this the next set of changes bring the opponents into the methods contained in Lipi 2 man.

There are several interesting tidbits of info that can be gleaned from this short set
1. How a form with 4 throws becomes a form with six throws

1.how to step behind opponent and the counter to such a technique

2.How a fixed pattern exercisecan have the changes added so that a student learns to be ready for other techniques
I recall on another thread some of my brothers arguing about how useful this method is. This short exposition isn't meant as way to convince, just food for thought.

In my experience ;even when doing a short three move exercise at top speed and power, both people already know what is coming and yet you still get hit from those techniques.

In this morning's class I was doing the short 2 man set with the groin kick(about one third the end of lipi) with a girl who has been practicing this technique with all her brothers and sisters for several months.
Even though I knew the kick was coming she still nailed me(I'm okay now as I managed half a block). So when we mix up the techniques it becomes imperitive that we keep that groin area blocked and also that a weaker opponent such as her learn how to apply the technique so well that even her shr fu is filled with the fear of God.

[Stacey]

No, Our stealing hands is first, followed by the groin strike, then the throw, then everything is the same, except that after the breaking elbow we front kick followed by a backfist and then turn and do it back the same way.

Sounds more like the one you wrote. I know well of that kick in li pi. I got kicked in the head durring a demo and nearly fainted. It was a light kick, but the angle was right.

Your Chi Sho is all palms right? Or do you use fists?

[Pong Lai]

TM: Did you learn your version from Shrfu?
I saw the version that SU Yu Chang teaches or taught. Little different than SHrfu's. Did you also pick up Su's version?

Seven Hands was also taught with the same beginning as Bung Bu, all the way up to the first Bu Chuay, everything the same after as we first learned.

Send me your present class schedule. Would like for those whom are returning to Taiwan with me to participate in your class when not as Shrfu's. Hard working group of students that will be joining.

[Tainan Mantis]

Pong Lai,
Su Yu Zhang has learned several different versions of this 2 man set.
I believe he concentrates on the 8 Step version. When he does it he leaves out the kicks while his students include the kicks.

The mei hwa version has no kicks. They are special in 8 Step and are a reflection of GM Wei's ditang background most likely.

I have seen the 7 Hands version you mentioned. Shr fu taught it to some students when they were going to do a show.

Stacey,
I didn't think of a groin strike at that moment, but after reading your post and visualizing it I realized that it makes the throw look like the baji version. A very interesting insight.

In our practice of this throw we have a groin strike as the opponent escapes from the throw.

I learned chi sho all palms.

[yu shan]

Earth Dragon

You received the two-person 7 hands set? Did you travel to Tainan, Taiwain, or was this on just a video? And do you make a practice of learning by video? One more question, please tell me that your school doesn`t have a belt ranking system!

[EARTH DRAGON]

Actually it was a fax of a manuscript that tainan mantis was generous enough to allow me to have. I have not learned anything on video although I do have some rare footage that I enjoy watching from time to time.

As far as my school having ranking, we do have colored sashes for the first beginning 4 levels. The intermediate level has 5 silver levels and the the advanced has 5 gold levels and there there are also 5 levels above that for mastery.

Just curious how you came up with that conclusion that we didnt have a ranking system......take care E.D