Shaolin "Orthodox" Wing Chun Family Tree!

[Gluteus Maximus]

These guys have got to be kidding if they are calling themselves Orthodox Wing Chun!!!

Also, look at the four students they attribute to Yip Man!?!

Do these guys really expect us to believe that Wing Chun was originally meant to be as they practice it and that the Yip Man, Yuen Kay San and other branches have altered the style beyond recognition?

http://www.shaolinwingchun.com/en/origins/origins_tree.html

[txwingchun]

All I can say is :eek:

[straight blast]

Isn't it funny how all the "Grandmasters" belonged to their "pure" lineage?
Once again the internet has proved to me how shallow my Martial Arts knowledge is. I guess I'm not learning "real" Wing Chun unless I learn their lineage....

WAIT A MINUTE!!!

Wouldn't that mean that they would suddenly start making more money if everyone believed their clever website? What an amazing coincidence. I can't wait to go into training tomorrow & tell my instructor that he's been wasting his time learning corrupted Wing Chun for the last 12 years. I bet the look on his face will be so sad. Good thing I can direct him to the truth. I'll be a hero.

Bless the Internet!

[mun hung]

Nothing bad to say, but what confuses me most is that "shaolin" is a mandarin pronounciation while "Wing Chun" is cantonese.

Shaolinwingchun?

[Gluteus Maximus]

[i] Wouldn't that mean that they would suddenly start making more money if everyone believed their clever website? What an amazing coincidence. I can't wait to go into training tomorrow & tell my instructor that he's been wasting his time learning corrupted Wing Chun for the last 12 years. I bet the look on his face will be so sad. Good thing I can direct him to the truth. I'll be a hero.

Bless the Internet! [/B]

LOL! If you can covince your Sifu to realise the error of his ways and go back to the real Wing Chun, you could learn this nifty move:

http://www.shaolinwingchun.com/en/techniques/tech_unarmedmh4.html

How about flying Chi Gerk?:

http://www.shaolinwingchun.com/en/techniques/tech_unarmedmh2.html

Here's a useful kick for stopping a rampaging bull elephant:

http://www.shaolinwingchun.com/en/techniques/tech_unarmedmelko3.html

[Gluteus Maximus]

Originally posted by mun hung
Nothing bad to say, but what confuses me most is that "shaolin" is a mandarin pronounciation while "Wing Chun" is cantonese.

Shaolinwingchun?

WHAT?!

You mean they've resorted to mixing and matching?!?

[Nichiren]

They also train the "original" wooden dummy;
http://www.shaolinwingchun.com/en/techniques/tech_unarmedmelko4.html

Man, you could use that dummy to club seals, or train sacrifice wrestling throws, or kill the elephant meantioned in the thread, or...

[Gluteus Maximus]

LOL! It looks more like the original Dalek prototype from Dr Who. :D :D :D

Is that the 119th dummy technique he's demonstrating there?

[Ish]

Do you think he could kick that high without holding on.

[Gluteus Maximus]

Originally posted by Ish
Do you think he could kick that high without holding on.

Yeah, ridiculous, isn't it. And he doesn't value his balls too much by the look of it!

[Ish]

They probly include some iron ball training with their superior wing chun

[Juan Alvarez]

Well, there's a show of the open mind of a martial artist! :D

[Juan Alvarez]

"Do you think he could kick that high without holding on"

Yes he can!!!

http://www.shaolinwingchun.com/fr/techniques/tech_unarmedmelko3.html

[reneritchie]

Anyone knowing the history of Vietnam in the last century may understand that the martial arts were fragmented, often combined together with more thought to survival than purity of system. Add to that ethnic biases (where ethnic Cantonese in Vietnam often did not teach the same way to the local Vietnamese as they taught to their fellow Cantonese) and the lack of communication with the places of origin for many of these arts, etc. Then, as happened in HK, the US, etc. marketing for MA was often based on claims of "Shaolin" connections, "original true versions", and what not (even when the system itself was all but unrecognizeable anymore). Then came the Internet and the Global Village, and all the "grandmasters", "patriarchs", etc., who had convinced themselves and their students of their place as "the one true source" were stuck. Information became available showing they were one of many instead of "the one", and sometimes heavily altered instead of "the original". What is there to do? Admit to the old students that the old stories were just hype? And what were the students who studied so long to do? Admit that it might not be what they were told and believed it was?

For some, skill and skill alone is proof enough. For others, they cling to the fairy tales of old. Sometimes they lose teachers or students, often they find a "next generation" and claim that the old one was never trust worthy enough and the new one will get the even truer more secreter and original system. And the cycle repeats. Others don't care a hoot about the stories, the ego or face of the "master", or the marketing and just enjoy learning it.

WRT Vietnamese WCK in particular. Some of it is derived from Yuen Kay-San's elder brother, Yuen Chai-Wan (Nguyen Te-Cong) and his teachings in Foshan and to his ethnic Cantonese students in Vietnam looks/sounds pretty much like Foshan WCK. His ethnic Vietnamese students vary more widely, often incorporating Five Animals, lots of Qigong, Gim/Sword, and other weapons. Some also comes from Chan Wah-Shun's student Lui Yiu-Chai (Luong Vu-Te), and also resembles in part Foshan WCK, though I believe some have mixed it with other things as well.

Rgds,

RR

[Kuen]

Do these guys really expect us to believe that Wing Chun was originally meant to be as they practice it and that the Yip Man, Yuen Kay San and other branches have altered the style beyond recognition?

Actually, this is Vietnam Wing Chun and the founder was Yuen Kay Sans brother Yuen Chai Wan (aka: Nguyen Te Cong).

[Juan Alvarez]

Thank you Kuen! It's always good to read the fine print! :D

[straight blast]

Yep, that's convinced me. The Elephant stopping kick & the jumping reverse TKD style roundhouse are definately not part of my corrupted lineage.

Boo Hoo:(

[Juan Alvarez]

Owww, c'mon admit it! You're just jealous! ;)

[old jong]

I found it was a very different kung fu if we compare to Yip Man's or other well known lineage of Wing Chun.
I watched a class and I could see some Wing Chun as I know it but kind of "wrapped" in the five animals stuff and things like that. It is not what I would do but I can say that they are good at what they do and they train hard.
They also claims to be doing the only true wing Chun!...Well, It's their opinion.
;)

[Juan Alvarez]

Salut Old Jong!

Thanks for the kind words. I'm proud to say that we do train very hard and some of the guys are just excellent. As for who has the REAL Wing Chun, who the hell knows. All I can see is that some people see Wing Chun through one person's history, and that's Yip Man. He was really great but there were others.

We do Wing Chun, with Wing Chun principles. The wrapping is a bit different. We use words like Orthodox or Traditional. But orthodox to what? Only to the ways of Shaolin. Traditional? Yes, it is a traditional asian school, following the traditional asian philosophy. We do the things the way our Grand Master was tought. And that's it! Don't trip over words. It's only one of the many branches of the big Wing Chun river has traveled. (How cheesy)

Anyways, cheers to you all... :)

[old jong]

I wish you well!:)

[Gluteus Maximus]

Rene - very interesting and astute comments.

Juan - I'm not suggesting that your style is without merit or attraction, and I'm sure some practitioners of the style are excellent martial artists, as you say. High, flashy kicks and flying kicks are impressive too, but not part of what would generally be considered as 'orthodox' Wing Chun.

Anyway, I admire your faith in your style and wish you all the best in your training.

Cheers,

[David Jamieson]

looks like they work hard to me.

claims or no claims, it looks good.

peace

[whippinghand]

Since you obviously train there, I'm directing this question to you:

What makes whatever you do, Wing Chun?

[Juan Alvarez]

Gluteus

Once again, what makes it "Orthodox" is that we follow the Shaolin way. Hence we do five animals form, chi kung, stretching and lots of conditioning.

Thank you for your support! :)

WH

What makes Wing Chun Wing Chun? Is it the movements or techniques used or is it the principles behind them?

[whippinghand]

Exactly Juan.... so what makes what you do, Wing chun?

[Juan Alvarez]

Both! :D

[whippinghand]

Which techniques and which principles, make what you do, Wing Chun, Juan?

[Gluteus Maximus]

Originally posted by Juan Alvarez
[B]Gluteus

Once again, what makes it "Orthodox" is that we follow the Shaolin way. Hence we do five animals form, chi kung, stretching and lots of conditioning.

That doesn't make it orthodox Wing Chun, Juan. Your statement is a non sequitur.

[neito]

:D

[Juan Alvarez]

WH

The techniques and principles that make Wing Chun Wing Chun. The path is different.

[whippinghand]

Perhaps you should figure it out before soliciting whatever you do as Wing Chun, or Shaolin for that matter...

[Sihing73]

Hello Whipping Hand,

Considering the lack of openess on your part I think that it is rather unfair to pass judgement on Juan or his method. Perhaps you would be willing to elaborate on what it is that makes what you do Wing Chun.

Let's not forget that this board represents the opportunity for various lineages and approaches to come together and share their views. No one group has a monopoly on the truth or the "right" way. If you don't have anything to contribute then why bother opening your mouth in the first place?

Seems to me that the reply was keeping in line with the manner WH has used on many occassions.

Peace,

Dave

[reneritchie]

Shaolin has three (at least) usages, which maybe better to classify when thinking along the lines of "orthodox". The first is, of course, Shaolin proper (the temple in Songshan). This has little, if anything, to do with media perceptions (even modern PRC tourist attractions), but of Chan Buddhism and Lohan boxing. This probably doesn't have much to do with 5 animal forms, or Qigong other than Shaolin proper Qigong (Yijinjing, etc.), nor stretching, conditioning, etc. (you can find those in TKD schools ;). The second is the Shaolin school, which is a broad term used to (miss)classify Chinese "external" martial arts, many of which have little or nothing to do with Shaolin proper. The third, and most common, is a lay, pop culture Shaolin, of movies, TV shows, and martial artists who attach the name Shaolin because of its power. This is common in China, Tawain, South East Asia, and since the Bruce Lee craze, in North America as well.

To be a Shaolin monk (before Wushun performers and MA marketers) was a very specific thing. To be an othodox Shaolin something very specific. Though there is always the chance, its probably not something we'll see much of anymore, except on flyers, webpages, and teachers telling stories around the tea table.

Rgds,

RR

[Juan Alvarez]

Sorry Dave,

actually it's my fault. I knew what WH was after and out of anything smart to say, I just made him taste his own medecine! As for my knowledge, it is in fact very limited since I'm just a newbee, I've been at that school for only two years. So what I would have answered is the same jiberich as any other newbee at any other school. They teach us center line, economy of movement, tan sao, fok sau, what have you... So nothing really new.

Same thing to Rene, I'm not really the person to talk about this. What I said is what I understood of it. Maybe in the furture I will be a reference, since I'll definately stick to the school.

And to everybody else, all I can say is that to really appreciate what is taught there, you have to visit the school. You will never have the real taste of a school trough pictures in the internet...

[Rolling_Hand]

Juan,

Are you a student of Sifu Sunny Tang?

[Juan Alvarez]

Sorry, no, Sifu Tang has no relations with this school. My school is very marginal, as I'm finding out... :)

[whippinghand]

I don't recall disrespecting his lineage in anyway. He calls what he does Wing Chun. I asked him to explain what makes what he does Wing Chun, so that I good better understand his branch. He wasn't able to answer. Any criticism that you may have perceived could have been directed at Juan himself, not his branch of Wing Chun/Shaolin/Wushu/"Tricks In a Shaolin Uniform" or whatever it is.

Please read carefully, to save us all from the long-winded lectures. Looking up and forward, may help too.


Originally posted by Sihing73
Seems to me that the reply was keeping in line with the manner WH has used on many occassions.
You can't change a scorpion's nature.

[Juan Alvarez]

Ahem...

"I don't recall disrespecting his lineage in anyway."

Your previous reply was deleted anyway...

"Any criticism that you may have perceived could have been directed at Juan himself, not his branch of Wing Chun/Shaolin/Wushu/"Tricks In a Shaolin Uniform" or whatever it is."

Yeah... Right... :rolleyes:

[Sihing73]

Hello Whipping Hand,

YOu are 100% correct I am nearsighted :cool: I wear glasses which helps me to see better at times, although I still sometimes miss things.

I gathered your criticism was directed at Juan as well as his school but still feel it was tactless. Of course, you may feel differently. I reiterate my earlier posting, why don't you expound on what makes what you do Wing Chun so that we may all get a better understanding of your approach?

As to changing a "scorpions" nature; I have met very few true scorpions though there are many who try to play the game as well as impress others with veiled one line sayings. I guess Caine made an influence after all :rolleyes:

Forgive me if I sound long winded I am just trying to fill the gap left by those of little or no wind or true substance :D

Peace,

Dave

[whippinghand]

LOL

[whippinghand]

Can you explain the high sidekick that fully exposes the groin? I'm wondering how exposing the royal jewels to severe damage potential can improve my Wing Chun...

[Rolling_Hand]

To all scorpions,

Someone you felt certain would get off scot free is suddenly stopped short.

[yuanfen]

Dave: You definitely seem to harbor a stereotype of WH as shown in some of your comments. His questions regarding orthodox are fairly clear. Folks over time have some basic tacit
understanding however broad about the parameters of wing chun. Juan can chose not to answer them saying as he does that he is a newbie. You are entitled to your own views but wearing the moderator's hat on this one for WH was premature IMO.
The orthodox WC family tree is suspect atleast in part ---the Yip Man part is outrageous bringing issues of credibility of the tree.
Broadly waving the term Shaolin as Rene pointed out is too broad a brush for showing what win chun is. The high bent back kicks shown in the pics doesnt make up for other things. It is a hybrid art...and it is legitimate to ask questions about it-- in one sentence or a paragraph.

[Sihing73]

Hello yuanfen,

Whether or not there is the right to ask questions regarding this branch is not in question. However, there is a mature way to do so and the running down of a lineage or individual is not, IMHO, the best way to do so. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion and has the right to express that view. Many people consider your Sifu to be less than genuine but I would no more tolorate someone being insulting to you or your line than to anyone else. To me the skill of the individual or lineage is what is important.

As to harboring a stereotype of WH, this is quite possible being based on his past performance and manner of posting. Irregardless of my feelings Wh's response to Juan was tactless and bit rude. Questions can be asked but again they should be done in a proper manner. Besides, one of the points I was raising is that WH has been very close-mouthed concerning his/her own approach to the art.

As to credibility of the Orthodox lineage tell me, do you believe that Yip Man learned from Chan Wah Shun and Ng Chung Sao as well as belive the story about his meeting with Leung Bik? This is one version spread throughout the WC world which many have come to question. Did Yip Man ever learn from Leung Bik and in in some cases the question even becomes did Leung Bik even learn Wing Chun? Taking this a step further, what about the story of Ng Mui, is this a true representation of the arts history?

My point is not to put anyone down but to point out that the truth is often clouded and not always apparent. For any of us to pass judgement on a school that is different, but seems to work hard at what they do, may be a bit premature. Wing Chun is a highly personal art and there are bound to be differences. Who knows, you may consider what I do not to be Wing Chun ;) Whether or not it proves effective.

By all means ask questions. Question everything, including what "Sifu says". However, is there any reason not to ask in a polite and constructive manner?

Peace,

Dave

[yuanfen]

Hi Dave- 1. Your general point on civility is well taken. Many of us
can slip into incivility and I think a moderator or an individual
can point out when the outer perimeters of civility are crossed.
It is when we generalize about a persons posts as unforthcoming
and so forth that the issue of stereotyping arises. And very easily crowd behavior by others can follow in characterising individuals specially in net posts.
2. I think you went far afield in your analogy but no matter. Regarding your example on my sifu, you must be referring to that moderatorless and amazing den of anonymous cheap shots the VTAA.Everyone has been pilloried there at one time or another
(including you and I). I am not arguing against moderation. Discussing personalities of a well known sifu and asking serious questions about extraordinary claims by a style to orthodoxy in a site brought to our attention (bow to Gluteus Maximus) are two different things. On genuine-ness of a sifu---if the rules for debate were impartial and clear enoughand evenly moderated and if anonymity was dropped- if someone has any serious concern about something I can see the possibility of civil clarification. Very big IFS.
3. On the Leung Bik story.Another far removed analogy. Since you asked. I dont draw the inferences that the TWC folks do but I do think that given the richness of Yip Man's own legacy that he learned from more than one Leung Jan line as he said he did.
The major parties arent around and we dont have a time machine
to resolve things like that ,absent documentary records-- we end up pitting he said versus he said . My birth was not recorded but surely there is something to the myth about my birth....reductio ad absurdum. Regarding the Ng Mui myth- discussing myths and how they are instructive as sources/capsules of information if taken seriously is a complex topic that is worthy of elaborate discussion but would be beyond the scope of short list type ofcommunications. Myths need not be true or false- tells youa lot of what is being conveyed. Some Chinese or Indian storytelling is simply different from western storytelling.
4. By implication- you are right on one thing- my circle on what is wing chun as an art is not as big as some. If we are not careful we could all be doing EKD in another generation -vapid ecclecticism. I better stop before I am given the mantle of verbosity and too forthcoming. I have tried to cut and paste spellchecked posts to makeup fir terrible keyboarding but posts have disappeared that way and since I believe inthe myth of gremlins I better quit. Besides my sisyphean task of dog walking awaits...as soon as I am done I have to roll the boulder up the hill again or atleast walk the beast...oh no-already again?

[Kuen]

Didn't Lee Man admit Leung Bik was manufactured as a selling point by Yip Man? Also, all of you picking on these guys, what makes you so sure you are doing the "real" Wing Chun? Because Sifu said so? I'm in an Yip Man lineage but maybe it's not really Wing Chun since Yip removed the 5 elements theory, changed the content of the forms and other things. I mean it's obvious that the founders intended the system to be one way but it has been altered time & time again by other humans. So WH, Yuanfan perhaps you could enlighten us as to what makes some changes and interpretations "correct" while others are not. Of course we all expect a better answer than that's what you've been taught.

[yuanfen]

Kuen: 1.From your profile(not untypical on this forum) I dont know who you are and what wing chun you do or if you do wing chun.
2. I am not the docile kind who mechanically depends on sifu sez
3. Changes are part of life, but the nature of the changes determines whether one belongs to one classification or another.
The beginning of the upright stance distinguishes us from some ancestors in common evolutionary concepts.
4. For wing chun as an art the fundamental starting point is the
ygkym as the central core stance-others may have something like it as an auxiliary.Can one turn the ma and move it reasonably well,
Can one throw the basic punches, palms and kicks from the ma
or its turning and stepping variations in regular practice. That is the core of wing chun for me- why? bEcause it is bio mechanically
more comprehensive as a foundation than top heavy bouncing around, the karate stance etc etc.Not because a sifu sez. From the core one can do things in many different ways in differnt lineages.Orthodox shaolin wing chun seems to be outside of that perimeter
unless someone can explain it better than has been the case.
thus far. hence the legitimacy of the queries. I engage in no personal attacks on Juan.
5. The third or more hand account of what Lee Man actually said
isnt quite history. We dont have Lee man's answer. And none of us including Wang Kiu were around when Yip man was learning
wing chun.As a balancing factor- Read Yip Ching's account - the father told his son that he also learned from Leung Bik- no marketing in the narrow sense of the word there. Yip Man lists Chan Wah Shun as his teacher because your first real teacher
in old traditions is your sifu.One father. He doesnt list the person who also taught him after Chan Wan Shun's death. Basically, I dont learn wing chun from gossip and dont depend mechanically to sifu sez.
My ears (despite some hearing loss<g> helps with noise) and eyes(very good)
and feel(superb) are always open to knowledge. (BTW I have gone round and round with this before- I am just answering your question in a brief but faor manner.)
6. BTW- what kind of wing chun do you exactly do?

[reneritchie]

Hey folks,

A few quick points:

1) Yup, I'm really Rene Ritchie, for good or ill ;)
2) The name Wing/Weng Chun is broadly popular beyond the specific system from Foshan that we commonly consider Wing Chun today. Like Hung Kuen (not Hung Ga Kuen), it spread around before and during the 19th century and was used in connection to several systems. In the 20th century, it gained immense fame from Bruce Lee, of course, and the name became more valuable than some others, perhaps. So, from Fukien to Hakka to South East Asia, you can find some Wing Chun that is quite different than what most would think Wing Chun was (both historical and new fangled).
3) The is enough information available now, IMHO, for us to get an idea what Wing Chun Kuen (the famed martial art from Foshan and surrounding areas) is. If you look at Yip Man Wing Chun and compare it to other, distinct, lineages from the Red Junk (Sum Nung, Cho, Yiu Choi (Yuen Chai-Wan), etc.) they are all similar in their core boxing, body mechanics, etc. (even Gulao, a branch from Leung Jan's later teachings, which does not use linked sets).
4) People tell all sorts of stories. "Shaolin", "Orthodox", "Traditional", "Authentic", etc. have been used for a long time. Hopefully modern communication will show the inherent folly in them, but they're certainly not restricted to any one lineage or teacher (take a look around HK, China, and the USA some time).

Rgds,

RR

[Kuen]

Rene, since they list Yuen Chai-Wan as a founder do you feel the art was probably more like YKS WCK and then a local flavor was added to the curriculum later? This seems to be a pretty common thing among kung fu practioners in south east Asia.

[Juan Alvarez]

I understand why you have questions about the pictures on the school's site. But, I'm calling on your common sense, from your experience as a MA artist which widely exeeds mine, even if you could perform such a kick, would you use it in a combat situation? I think not...

Guess what? That guy in that picture is probably as experienced as you, if not more. This guy has trained very hard in the style and has done other MAs before. I don't think he's showing a basic Wing Chun combat technique. AND... he's the only one in the school that can kick like that anyways!!! :)

So why the picture, you ask?... Let's pretend that you can perform such a kick. Every body knows you can do it and one day somebody ask you to do it and Click! A picture is taken... A few months or years later, your school has it's site under construction and that picture is chosen because it is quite spectacular... Get my drift? I'm not saying that's what happened, but I want to show you that there are plenty of possible contexts in wich a picture finds itself on a web site. And it's my opinion that it is plain stupid to judge the validity or invalidity of a school or a lineage on it.

Now, to answer your question, in wich picture doesn't he protect his jewels? In the one where he's kicking the sky, he has a fist for protection between the legs. That is the basic "beginner" technique that we are taught (the fist, not the high of the kick). Now, I don't know in what context the picture with the wooden dummy was taken so I cannot answer for that one. Any other question?

[reneritchie]

Kuen,

Yuen Chai-Wan's WCK, as I understand he taught it in Foshan (to students such as Yiu Choi) and to his ethnic Cantonese students in Vietnam, looks/sounds very much like Yuen Kay-San's system, as I would expect it to (being brothers as well as training partners for decades). As I said before, when taking into account the circumstances in Vietnam, I think its easy to see how other material could come to be included (as it was in some villages in China, and other cities in South East Asia), and names get all mixed up (as I mentioned on a previous thread, they use the names of Yuen Kay-San's children (Yuen Chai-Wan's nephews) as other WCK teachers/students (both have passed away; neither practiced WCK).

Still, as with Malaysian and other forms of Wing Chun Kuen (like the extended Cho curriculum, Pao Fa Lien), they remain distinct and important parts of the WCK family of systems. Marketing and internal politics (there are 2 or 4 people who each claim to be the "patriarch" or true inheritor of Vietnamese WCK, and some of the claims might be positioning between them), IMHO, should just get the wink and nod it always did, and we should concentrate on the art.

Juan- I quit Wushu a long time ago. If I could have kicked spectacularly, I might have stayed with it and taken some pictures too 8)

Rgds,

RR

[whippinghand]

Juan, I would think that one would choose pictures that would represent what the school actually does, not what happens to look good, or look bad(depending on how one would perceive a kick like that, of course).

Since you addressed the picture from an attempted practical standpoint... I don't think that hand between his legs does much for protecting his groin (from a practical standpoint, of course). It might soften the blow a bit. But in that position he'll still go down, protection or not.

[Juan Alvarez]

OK, WH! I prefer this to witch hunts.

So, as I said, that is basic beginner technique in our school. Could you tell me what is a good groin protecttion for you? I'm more interested in how other people do the techniques than calling this or that a fake. Could you provide photos also?

As for the pictures in our site, maybe you're right...

[yuanfen]

Juan- learning the center line in fron of you with proper knee abduction in yee gee kim yeung ma is a fundamental begining in
protecting the groin. Then you learn the chum kiu turn- helps getting the groin out of the way if something is coming that way.
You can bring in the knee witha step or lifting it a bit for adiitional
protection. Hands can play a supporting role at times... but merely
puttinga hand out to stop a kick can result in a broken hand as well as a damaged groin. Legs are stronger than hands.
Very advanced people can get by at times with good timed hands-
but most shouldnt do it. In any case a single technique to protect the groin is not much of an answer because angles, timing and speed of an attack can vary.

[Juan Alvarez]

Thank you for your reply. I understand what you are describing. Unfortunately, my question to WippingHand was concerning the picture were this person does a high kick. At the beginner level, when we are taught to kick, regardless of the high you can achieve, we are told to put a fist between our legs for protection. I was asking WH if there was another way of doing it while kicking. I appreciate that you take the time to answer my question though. :)

Cheers!

[yuanfen]

Ok Juan. So you want to protect your groin in some way while still doing that "technique" which does not protect your groin.?
I am obviously baffled by your schools beginner training. If the high kicks are for flexibility-ok- but then why try to protect the groin at that time.

[dre_doggX]

www.vietwingchun.com/ Is the other school I think they are connected by the same or similar lineage
http://www.wckfo.com.au/ I ask the people at this site and they also claim to use animal forms in their Wing Chun but here is the trap a THIS ONE HAS WILLIAM CHUENGS LINEAGE.

In Taiji people never have this problem cause Taiji is not just a fighting style it is an art like a Philosophy, and so is Wing Chun (IMO) if you want it to be. Think about this you can take Boxing digest it enough study its machanics enough and make Judo. from Judo analyze principles and the meaning or Theroy behind there movements and easily get aikido by changing its purpose and goal of the fighting style. from Aikido the turning is not different from shotokan karate, then you have White Crane Shaolin, and Shaolin it self. some were down the line theres Wing Chun. go to this site look at the palms of the elements of Pa Kua Zhang(the fighters of this style move in circulars alot) but the stepping can be wing Chun so we can do it to with just stiking to sil lum tao and chum kil, then look at the palms again. ALL OF THEM ARE IN WING CHUN. the stepping is in Wing Chun.
its an art and art can be a : phisolophy ,sport, excerise, self-defense. But it can never be free from not being anyone of these.

Wing Chun is really what ever you want to make it.

oh the site:http://www.ninedragonbaguazhang.com/mother8.htm

[whippinghand]

Juan, yuanfen has been gracious enough to provide you with a detailed explanation, which did not seem to register with you. Understandably so, as your school's focus in training appears to be otherwise consumed, and therefore would not support that train of thought. Hence, I choose not to be redundant.

[whippinghand]

Originally posted by dre_doggX
Wing Chun is really what ever you want to make it.


That explains its popular deficiencies, and the sudden widespread of Wing Chun, today.

[Kuen]

We are still waiting for you to let us know how you know you have the real Wing Chun. Since everything everyone else seems to say on this board is wrong by your standards then you should enlighten us. Then we won't have to listen to your pedantic prattling about how bad everyone elses WC is and we can all live in your happy world.

[S.Teebas]

On behalf of sihing73 i would like to say...

This is our board, not his! And stop talking about whos WC is the real WC... beacuse, u know. And if you dont like it you can email him any time on his email address etc...

:D :D

[Juan Alvarez]

Ok! Sorry I took some time to answer... I'm overloaded with work!

Yes WH I think you're right. It's obvious that we won't see things eye to eye. For instance, for me it's quite normal to protect the opening while kicking for the obious reasons, even when it's knee high. Therefore, I don't think that anything else needs to be said.

Kuen, it's WH's choice to post in that attitude and I think that we have to live with it even if sometimes it p*sses us off!

"To live in the sky and earth's harmony by the knowledge of life and death, in the respect of everybody's Karma" is one of our school's rule of conduct :).

Thank you all for your time!

[red5angel]

I am a newbie to this so all of you guys who are a little long in the tooth be gentle!

Someone said earlier wing chun i swhat you make it. I dont agree, but here is why - Wing Chun, is Wing Chun, you may have to make a few small adaptations to it to make it fit you better but that doesnt change Wing Chun, and it shouldnt. The things you have to adapt may not work for someone else.

[whippinghand]

Originally posted by Kuen
We are still waiting for you to let us know how you know you have the real Wing Chun. Since everything everyone else seems to say on this board is wrong by your standards then you should enlighten us. Then we won't have to listen to your pedantic prattling about how bad everyone elses WC is and we can all live in your happy world.

Tell me, in which post/thread I stated that my Wing Chun is the real Wing Chun (whether it is or not). In which post/thread did I state that everyone else is wrong? In which post/thread did I prattle about "how bad everyone else's Wing Chun is"?

Perhaps your post is reflective of your own feelings about what you do... Perhaps the comments that I've made, that you find offensive or bothersome, are simply opening the sinuses to your own insecurities about your Wing Chun.

[whippinghand]

If you have to protect your groin for a knee high kick, then you have a problem with your knee high kick.

We were created with only two hands. I don't think one of them was meant to cover our balls throughout the day.

[Kuen]

You can do better than that. We are still waiting for enlightenment.

[whippinghand]

Though I am Buddha to many, I do not wish to be.

[Kuen]

juan-

There's no need to be pi$$ed at Mr. Hand. If you've seen most of his posts here and on other boards around the net I'm sure you'll see he's to be taken lightly.

[Juan Alvarez]

WH: Now I know what to do next time you try to kick me!

Kuen: No sweat!

[Matrix]

Originally posted by red5angel
Someone said earlier wing chun i swhat you make it. I dont agree, but here is why - Wing Chun, is Wing Chun, you may have to make a few small adaptations to it to make it fit you better but that doesnt change Wing Chun, and it shouldnt. The things you have to adapt may not work for someone else. red5angel,

I agree with your observation. WC is WC or VT. I think that the "whatever you want to make it" statement applies more to something like Jeet Kune Do.

Matrix

[whippinghand]

Originally posted by Juan Alvarez
WH: Now I know what to do next time you try to kick me!
Cover your crotch? It won't help you anyway...

[Spectre]

When reading the replies to a post, instead of giving posters like Whipping Hand more fuel for his fire, perhaps we should look to Bruce Lee for a few things.

Take what is useful and efficient and discard what is not necessary.

Good advice.


Kevin

Continued blessings in your life and your training.

[whippinghand]

Intelligent readers will find most of what I write useful.

[Matrix]

Originally posted by whippinghand
Intelligent readers will find most of what I write useful.

Maybe if you wrote a little bit more, we could make a better judgement call on that statement :)

As for your comments to Juan, for the most part I agree with what you are hinting at. I have not seen any post where you claim to have "real" Wing Chun......... whatever that is. I have seen a lot of WC or VT that looks quite different in its interpretation of the concepts from what I do, but I can see a common thread through all of these variants. However, in Juan's case I don't quite see it. Jumping scissors kicks, spinning back kicks and dropping your hands to your crotch are from other arts, IMHO. This does not make it wrong, nor better nor worse. Just different. If they want to call it Wing Chun, who are you or I to tell them any different? I don't have a lock on the truth, that's for sure. I wish them the best and great success.

As for those criticizing WH, if you look at the beginning of this thread, you will see a lot of negative comments from many others long before WH chimed in. He's obviously not alone in his opinion. Of course that doesn't make it right either, but it's just an observation.

Matrix

[Matrix]

Originally posted by Rolling_Hand
Juan,

Are you a student of Sifu Sunny Tang? Rolling Hand,

Sunny Tang is in the Yip Man--Moy Yat lineage. Why did you think there was an association with Juan's school?? Just curious.

Matrix

[ATENG]

ok, i can actually see WH's point...

if the high kicks are purely for training purposes....why train to put your fist there to protect it, since you're not going to be throwing high kicks? seems like you might develop an unecessary habit. and i agree with WH in that when you perform a kneekick correctly, there is no need to use your hand to cover your crotch...your kick should/would have done the job already. peace.

[whippinghand]

Originally posted by ATENG
ok, i can actually see WH's point... if the high kicks are purely for training purposes....why train to put your fist there to protect it, since you're not going to be throwing high kicks?
That was yuanfen's point.

[ATENG]

my mistake

[Juan Alvarez]

WH, you shouldn't worry about my crotch!

[whippinghand]

But you certainly should...

[Matrix]

Originally posted by whippinghand
But you certainly should... That's exactly what I was thinking :)

Matrix

[whippinghand]

Canadians rock.... eh?

[Matrix]

Originally posted by whippinghand
Canadians rock.... eh? Oh yeah...............you know it, eh. :cool:

Matrix

[yuanfen]

Crotch-ety Canadians? Is that what you are talking about?

[Juan Alvarez]

All raight! All right! Can we let this thread go now?

[whippinghand]

Juan, yuanfen just called you crotchety.

[Juan Alvarez]

Technically, I'm not Canadian...

[Roy D. Anthony]

I have a question. I have seen the pics in the gallery pictures taken in Viet Nam on this site and they seem to be a different way of practicing this version of Wing Chun than the one practiced in Montreal, is there any explanation for this?....just Curious.

[Enree]

Hey there!

Don't mind me, I'm new to all this (this forum), so I'm reading all the old posts that interest me. Not trying to re-kindle old debates and what not, I just wanted to put in my comments since it was such a big thread.

1) If Juan's school/style wants to call what it does a form of WC then let it be. So long as they know (and practice) the basic roots/concepts. And as long as it's not definitively the "only true" WC school (I stated this in a different thread regarding lineage, pardon me if I'm being redundant).

2) Juan, I hope you can see why the photo's involved in the website caused so much controversy. I'm not saying your school isn't WC or it's wrong. But the photo's represented aren't typical of the WC that others are used to seeing. But like you stated earlier, it could be a number of reasons why the photo's were chosen.

**This is my own personal opinion regarding the photos. They're wonderful show pieces. Whoever's doing that stuff seems very flexible and athletic. Kudo's to him. However, in relation to the WCD I study, it wouldn't be very useful in strict self-defense. And that's why there were a few posts regarding the exposed groin area. Even if hands are there, there's a potential for something hitting your hand and your hands bashing your own nuts. Again it's in no way meant to be dis-respectful, I just wanted to express my own opinion.**

Take care everyone,
Enree.