Question for wah lum people part II [Archive]

woliveri

01-16-2002, 11:28 AM

1. no I don't know big mantis and I don't think I should have to to have been exposed to jut sow.

2. it has been said by SaMantis that jut sow is a big part of the system so by big part I should see it all over the place. I don't.

As far as I know jut sow means wrestling hands. Is this correct? This implies to me that there is some close infighting techniques.

You have not answered the question. Please define jut sow and give me an example in first form (your example) that uses a jut sow technique.

By the way, I'm not asking for what you think a jut sow technique is, I'm asking what is taught by the school that a jut sow technique is.

Such as (instructor speaking):

Ok, class. This movement is a jut sow technique. Here are it's applications.

SaMantis

01-16-2002, 12:35 PM

hi, woliveri

to respond to your question about jut sow, I first read this in a piece of Wah Lum literature back when I started studying Tai Chi, but I can't remember exactly which it was. I have to dig through the pile of junk that it my bookshelf and if I find it, I'll tell you.

However Hua Lin is right, jut sow is in the Wah Lum curriculum. Forgive me if I'm wrong, but aren't mantis hands a wrestling hands technique? Because we have been learning some close infighting techniques and mantis hand plays a part in many of them.

Sam

Hua Lin Laoshi

01-16-2002, 01:31 PM

Ok, here's a hint. ALL of the mantis moves and techniques are Jut Sow.

I asked about your exposure to Jut Sow because you may have seen it and not known it was Jut Sow. You went quite a way in Wah Lum, where do you think the mantis moves come from?

Why do you assume the mantis you learned while at Wah Lum is not Jut Sow? Do you have evidence to the contrary?

1. Big Mantis is Jut Sow and I think you have been exposed to Jut Sow while training at Wah Lum.

2. There are mantis moves all over our forms. I know you got higher than 1st Form so you must have noticed them.

Yes, Jut Sow means Wrestling Hands. How close is the mantis hook/elbow in 18 Elbows, 36 Hands and Lok Low? Close.

Beginning of 1st Form - open hand block/hook mantis/scrape off/grab.

If you're looking for pure Jut Sow maybe you left too soon.

If I tell you the mantis you're learning is Jut Sow and then I show you some mantis techniques do I have to specify that it is Jut Sow for each technique every time I teach it? If I was teaching multiple mantis styles like in Pong Lai it would help to specify which style a move belonged to but teaching one style it is unneccessary. If you studied Wing Chun would you have to be told it was a Wing Chun technique every time you learned anything?

I'm just trying to understand what the trouble is you're having or what you're not understanding.

Sorry if I'm getting a little short but some of these questions about Wah Lum seem a little crazy to me. We are admittedly a hybrid style yet we are faulted for not being pure mantis or pure northern. Apparently Wah Lum is not what others want it to be so they claim that as a shortcoming. Wah Lum is what it is and if anyone doesn't like it then go somewhere else. No hard feelings.

Well, I couldn't write f.a.r.t.h.e.r because f.a.r.t got bleeped out. I'm changing it to h.i.g.h.e.r and hopefully the moderator bot won't think it's a drug related comment. :D

woliveri

01-16-2002, 03:33 PM

Ok, here's a hint.... assinine response. No hard feelings.

So your saying all the mantis techniques are jut sow? So take away jut sow and you have no mantis?

Are you sure? I'm asking cuz I have no idea? It was never taught/shown what jut sow was or how it integrated into Wah Lum.

If you ask me what a Tam Tui technique was I could tell you and I wouldn't get upset about it.

I'm asking you (or anyone) to define jut sow, and how it integrates into WL. Why tell someone jut sow is apart of their system and not expose what jut sow is?

Love ya HL,

SaMantis

01-16-2002, 09:26 PM

I'm asking you (or anyone) to define jut sow, and how it integrates into WL. Why tell someone jut sow is apart of their system and not expose what jut sow is?

woliveri, hua lin just defined it for you, and just told you how it integrates into the system.

But, for the sake of learning, please tell us your definition of jut sow, list some techniques and applications. Then we can compare what we know in Wah Lum with what you've learned in a different system.

Your initial question to me (is jut sow really a big part of WLPM) was very confusing to me, as you are a former student with (supposedly) more experience. If Hua Lin knows about jut sow, and I know about jut sow, then you too must have encountered at least some mention or demonstration of wrestling hands when you were at WL.

woliveri

01-16-2002, 10:16 PM

SaMantis, I don't have a definition of jut sow. That's why I'm asking. I've never had anyone from the temple discuss the issue. If it's being discussed now that's great but it Never was discussed when I was there.... ever. When I was at the temple apparrently it was different than it is now and that's great if it's true. I hope you're learning these things as I did not.

SaMantis

01-16-2002, 10:33 PM

addition...

just got home from work and dug through the bookshelf as promised. Here are two sources:

1. Wah Lum Kung Fu Members Handbook, p. 25 -- Q. What style of Praying Mantis are you learning? A. Jut Sow Tong Long - Wrestling Hands Praying Mantis.
-- I should have known that right off the bat -- it's Question 4 on the FIRST TEST!

2. Wah Lum Kung Fu: A compilation of basic knowledge (The red book), p. 27 -- "The style that you are learning is 'Jut Sow.' There is no exact translation of the name, so all I can tell you is that the emphasis is on the elbow and the grabbing - close elbow work and grabbing.

oh, wait -- I just remembered another source, from class last week:

3. Si Hing: OK, volunteer, here's how we control the hand and elbow and bring the person down to the ground.
SaMantis: Arg ... urk ... sucks to be me right now ...
-- I believe there was jut sow in there somewhere. Also a fair amount of pain. :D

As far as book definitions go, those are the two I found right off the bat.

Sam

SaMantis

01-16-2002, 10:45 PM

If it's being discussed now that's great but it Never was discussed when I was there.... ever. When I was at the temple apparrently it was different than it is now and that's great if it's true. I hope you're learning these things as I did not.

Yeah, I can't say what things were like before I got there, I'm new to the system.

However I can say that whenever I have a question about an application, I get a clear answer and a demonstration ... this goes for the si hings as well as Sifu Mimi.

Sam

woliveri

01-16-2002, 11:02 PM

SaMantis,

From points 1 and 2 in your list above I knew that. From the handbook in 84 it reads:

What style of preying mantis are you learning? Jut Sow - Wrestling hands.

I'm just saying that I don't know what the h-e-l-l a jut sow technique is. Hua Lin says mantis is Jut Sow. You say "close elbow work and grabbing". Which is it? One or both? As I said before a Tam Tui technique is quite obvious in most cases but Jut Sow, to me it's just a meaningless term that I know nothing about. So we do Jut Sow, what is Jut Sow? Is Jut Sow derived from a southern system? If so is there sensitivity training that should be used to enhance your art? Is or should there be sensitivity training for Jut Sow?

spiralstair

01-17-2002, 02:31 AM

woliveri: continually asking 'what is a Jut Sow technique?' when you have Wah Lum forms for you to practice is a lot like asking ' what is an apple?' to the guy at the fruit stand when he's just handed you one to eat. The answer in both cases is to experience it. The apple by eating it , the Jut Sow in WL by researching application while moving through the forms.

Joe Mantis

01-17-2002, 07:00 AM

It seems that there are two viewpoint presented.

1. Wolvi is saying that he is not able to distinguish Jut Sow techniques and wants to know if it was taught to students so that they can distinguish Jut Sow Techniques. Mantis hand aside (obviously).

Joe Mantis

01-17-2002, 07:07 AM

sorry i got cut off.

Since WL is a mix of Jut Sow, Tam Tui, and other styles. It would make sense to be able to identify the techniques from each of these styles. Tam Tui is not strickly a leg style so it would be interesting to know what arm movements are from there.

Also, it would be nice to know if this Mantis technique is stictlyJut sow or is it common to other styles as well.

2. Hua Lin has a point that all the mantis taught in WL is Jut Sow. So there is no reason to point out what is and isn't JS.
Makes sense.

I can understand both sides. However I don't think that the discussion of what is Jut Sow has been concluded. This was another thread. There seemed to be a bit of controversy on where it originated etc.

I would be interested to know Jut Sow basics. As well as Tam Tui basics, Such as the 12 roads.

Anyway, both points are well presented and I hope that answers can be found to satify all parties involved.

Joe Mantis

01-17-2002, 07:12 AM

Quickly,

Spiral: I understand what you posted. I think that you should consider that WL is not a single style like Wing Chun, etc. Therefore it would be difficult to differentiate the techniques between the different styles. Further more Chan Pui incorporated Mok Gar (his family style) into the mix. What does mok Gar look like? what are the techniques involved.

I would be interested to know about 2nd form for example. As ide from the kicks, what part is Tam tui and what part is Jut Sow?

If you know, I'd appreciate if you would share it.

This can be a complicated issues.

Racer X

01-17-2002, 08:05 AM

hello everyone, i've been reading the posts here for quite sometime,just dont post because of my typing. Anyhow in Wah Lum is there any pure jut sow forms? If so what are the names,and what level are they taught at?

spiralstair

01-17-2002, 08:40 AM

For a minute consider the different Kung Fu styles as though they are different restaurants.

Each restaurant has a different way of cooking using some commonly shared ingredients and some that are more exotic and particular to the restaurant's chef.

Kung Fu students are like the restaurant's customers. Most are only interested in a meal that makes sense and is nourishing. Some people though are 'gourmets', and they relish identifying each ingredient of the meal and its proportion. They'll ask the chef, "What's in it?"
That's a game most chefs won't play with their customers. Ask them " How much salt?" A pinch. "How much oil?" A splash.

How much Tam Tui? Jut Sow?
IT DOESN'T MATTER AND THE CHEF WON'T TELL YOU.

The question is have the ingredients been combined well and does it nourish you.

woliveri

01-17-2002, 09:12 AM

spiralstair: HorseHocky!!! I was a Pastry Chef for 20 years and we gave out recipies all the time. The difference is if you want to just eat and enjoy the food (forever a student) or try to learn what's inside so you can make it yourself (wanting to be and eventually becoming a master).

Joe Mantis: I had refrained from asking about Mok Gar. Since there was mention that Jut Sow was all over the place then this was a safer bet to get explained. I don't think anyone knows about Mok Gar.

18elders

01-17-2002, 09:24 AM

From the forms i know and have seen i think Big mantis is a strictly mantis set, little mantis, maybe fan cha, had more mantis technique when i saw it in china.

As for the mixing, from what i have heard and others have confirmed is that Chan wan ching made up wah lum 1-6 that is why they are not strictly mantis sets.

Another curious question i have (don't get ****ed at me again) is did LKS teach both the jut sow and the tam tui as complete styles under the Wah lum name and then it got mixed by others?

If wah lum does have strictly mantis sets why weren't they mixed with the tam tui and others were?

Olethros

01-17-2002, 10:20 AM

"So your saying all the mantis techniques are jut sow? So take away jut sow and you have no mantis? "

let's say you are studying 8-Step PM.
Does that mean that every technique has to have 8-steps? Does every technique *have* to contain the characteristic footwork?
Do you get the point I'm making?

woliveri

01-17-2002, 10:47 AM

Olethros: No, I don't get it.

See my statement to spiralstair above.

Joe Mantis

01-17-2002, 10:54 AM

WLPM "is what it is."

I agree with Hua Lin. If people don't like it they can train elsewhere.

However, I am getting a mixed message. Lineage and knowing where one comes from is important in chinese culture. Thus we have the lineage of Chan Pui - Chan wan Ching - LKS etc.
Does this importance stop at who was taught by who or is it important to know where these techniques come from.

I have found that as I investigate Tam Tui, Praying Mantis (still haven't found pure Jut Sow though) I appreciate the WL forms more.
Of course we are just supposed to do what the teacher tells us. However a mind that is inquisitive is not bad.

If no one even Chan Pui doesn't know which techniques are which, fine, just say: "I don't know." And then point the student in the direction of where they could find the answer. OR go seek out the answer yourself to tell the student.

That being the case, I'm still interested in knowing about 2nd & 4th form and straight form for that matter. Which techniques are mantis, Tams or mok gar.

____________________________
Did LKS teach praying mantis and Tam Tui as a complete system?
______________________________________

18 Elders: interesting question. i suppose that he would have taught the basics of each system first. To CWChing. Maybe CWChing combined what he thought were the most effective techniques into forms 1-6?

flem

01-17-2002, 11:17 AM

WL people

and i guess that is everyone at some point in time- are you all insane?

woliveri

if you can recognize tam tui then recognize it - whats left is praying mantis! (jut sow) yeah, yeah, mok gar, family style, the southern techs are few and easily recognized.

in WL literature it was written that the style utilizes the strong leg techniques of tam tui- high and low, and that the close range tactics are mantis, seems easy enough to define.

1st form mantis- tong long deil sow, grag punch, turn look at moon/spear hand, side kick, di ma chang choy, step away elbow, the two punches in cat stance, the chin na move in hill climb stance before the kneeling punch.....
you guys must learn too fast, maybe you should stay home awhile or train at your schools after hours and maybe you could answer such a simple question- except for hua lin lao shi who appears to have already done so.

and praying mantis itself is a shaolin hybrid

woliveri

01-17-2002, 11:42 AM

flem, how are the two punches in cat stance jut sow? I'm not understanding how do you know these are jut sow techniques? So your saying anything that is not tam tui is jut sow? hmmmm... So why don't we call it Wah Lum Jut Sow Tam Tui Northern Praying Mantis?

SaMantis

01-17-2002, 12:16 PM

So why don't we call it Wah Lum Jut Sow Tam Tui Northern Praying Mantis?

Because the sign out front would be incredibly long ... :D

flem,

I guess we are all insane. Seriously tho, when I said (in another thread) that jut sow is a big part of WLPM, woliveri immediately came back and said, really? I studied there and saw no jut sow techniques at all (or something to that effect). Which confused the hell out of me, being a newer student, because here I was reading it right in the literature, I have si hings telling me we're learning jut sow, demonstrating it, etc. And here comes a guy who studied at WL for some time who challenges that notion. I figured, if he's got more KF experience than me, maybe he knows something. So I went and looked it up. And Hua Lin confirmed it for me.

Anyway, woliveri, if you want to learn about jut sow, ask specifically about a jut sow technique. At this point all you've done is insinuated that Wah Lum is lying to its students. Hua Lin and others have pointed out what jut sow is to you, but you are still beating this dead horse of a question into the ground.

Jut sow is defined loosely as wrestling hands. Wrestling hands is a big part of praying mantis. OK?

Now let's talk about jut sow APPLICATIONS on this thread and not ask pointless questions about what you did or didn't learn at Wah Lum.

Sam

flem

01-17-2002, 12:20 PM

woliveri

the rib punch is a classic praying mantis technique, i have seen, on several occassions photos of master, no, Professor Law demonstrating the same technique, who was a well known mantis instuctor in the 60's i believe(1960)- since WL utilizes jut sow, it is safe to say...

why not reverse the name? i can give you my reasons, but they may not coincide with the original intent- 1st, the style is predominately tam tui, 2nd it came first to lee kwan shan- who must have felt it needed to be that way- out of respect, who knows, maybe it sounds better--- i personally like kick boxing better than box kicking! and third, perhaps at that time and maybe even today, the tam tui may be superior or maybe he thought so.

i think WL has worked itself into a corner because for years it has promoted the aestetic aspects and has become world famous for it's forms. it is a double edged sword really, it's huge, but the majority of the practitioners care little for the practical side- most people were affraid(so to speak) of the "best" people in the style when i was in it, but only a handful were anything but show

i personally think it has it all, and that it makes more sense than straight PM BECAUSE of its emphasis on tam tui. in the fights that i have been involved in and witnessed, long range techs dominated(used most), while close range was used effectively, but only after closing in- WL trains the body as a fight happens-except most practioners i know have never been hit

flem

01-17-2002, 12:30 PM

samantis and other WLers,

o.k. samantis, lets talk about the move near the end of 16 hands- right before the double chops- long punchs in hill climb stance. i have read that it is called "two swallows fly through the forest"

{a mantis tech woliveri (same source)}

any way, it said it was used against (3) attackers, i can understand (2), can anyone figure a third- perhaps the butt attack from another post?!

Hua Lin Laoshi

01-17-2002, 01:54 PM

General comment to all:
I try my best to answer most of the questions directed towards Wah Lum both technical and historical. I'm not opposed to discussing techniques here but I am NOT going to TEACH Wah Lum in a public forum. If woliveri, 18 Elders or anyone else wants an explanation of the forms they learned while with Wah Lum or more insight into what we do and how we train then they should come back and continue with their training. Wah Lum instruction is for Wah Lum students only! My previous posts were intended to dispel the notion that we don't know what we're doing, can't fight, don't know apps etc. and I believe I said enough to prove we are legitimate.

There are Tam Tui sets and Tong Long sets on the higher levels that I haven't learned or seen yet. I don't know for a fact but I'm guessing they are pure forms. Everything at the lower levels are mixed. 2nd and 4th Forms are Tam Tui forms with some Jut Sow Mantis hand techniques added. Forms 1 to 6 are Wah Lum forms meaning a Tam Tui/Jut Sow mix. Wah Lum is not a school that teaches the Tam Tui Style and the Jut Sow Style, it is a style that is comprised of Tam Tui and Jut Sow techniques. Maybe that will put it in perspective for some of you.

Now. how many of you want to list the forms in your style with complete explanations of the techniques and history of the lineage?

Hua Lin Laoshi

01-17-2002, 02:19 PM

flem
That's Soy Long Pow Choy. I don't see 3 attackers at all but let me kick it around awhile. The obvious is cross block/side wave punch to the temple. Do you recall where you read that?

Since it is a roundhouse kind of punch could you be striking one opponent along the way to the other? Swing wide hit hit.

Olethros

01-17-2002, 02:22 PM

"and praying mantis itself is a shaolin hybrid"

Good point. So is there really a difference between a hybrid 300 years old and a hybrid of a 300 year old hybrid and another style? Does it matter?

So I guess for those people who claim that their style of PM is the original....which of your techniques are made up and which are Shaolin?

woliveri

01-17-2002, 03:12 PM

Whatever HL, if you want to evade the question that's ok. You statement above sounds like an official temple statement. All I asked was to define the characteristics of a jut sow technique.

SaMantis

01-17-2002, 03:22 PM

flem,

going through the form beside my desk right now ... my coworkers are giving me funny looks!

With the pow choy (double punches), I can only figure 2 attackers max, but if you do the move right before that (punch high, scoop, downward strike) followed by pow choy, you could be neutralizing an attacker facing you, then cross block, turn into pow choy to strike a 2nd attacker with the right fist and blocking the 3rd attacker with left arm.

Or even with 1 opponent, scoop/downward strike to trap and control the leg following their kick (from front or side), pow choy delivers a strike to the temple.

That's my impression ... I need to practice it with a partner though.

Sam

Inquisitor

01-17-2002, 04:18 PM

Hey guys, I don't think you should bother responding to woliveri anymore. He's been baiting for a while... In fact, I'm surprised it's held up this long - no one has resorted to calling him a motherless son of a chihuahua, heh. I mean, come on, look at this stuff:

"Ok, here's a hint.... ***assinine response. No hard feelings***"

"SaMantis, I don't have a definition of jut sow. That's why I'm asking. ***I've never had anyone from the temple discuss the issue. If it's being discussed now that's great but it Never was discussed when I was there.... ever.*** When I was at the temple apparrently it was different than it is now and that's great if it's true. I hope you're learning these things as I did not."

"Whatever HL, if you want to ***evade the question*** that's ok. You statement above ***sounds like an official temple statement.***"

"So your saying anything that is not tam tui is jut sow? hmmmm... ***So why don't we call it Wah Lum Jut Sow Tam Tui Northern Praying Mantis?***"

Yeah, I know, it looks like I'm just copying/pasting all his posts, hehe. Anyway, he obviously has something against Wah Lum, and is just waiting for someone to get ****ed off and try to rip him a new one.

woliveri, if you want to know the what/where/why/how/etc. of jut sow in Wah Lum Tam Tui PM, why don' t you try going to a kwoon (if there is one nearby) and asking the people there? It is one thing to compare/contrast/discuss techniques and martial philosophy on a message board, it is quite another to actually try to learn them and be able to discern them in forms (which must be watched and performed with "intent" to truly be understood).

As was said before, the original style of Praying Mantis was in and of itself a "hybrid" art. Personally, I think if you were really trying to study or understand Wah Lum Tam Tui, you would actually *do* it, as opposed to sit on the sidelines and make assumptions. And, by the way, the reason it isn't called "Wah Lum Jut Sow Tam Tui" is the same reason why Tong Long isn't called "Cheng Tai Tzu Men Tong Bei Lam Sao Duen Ngo Mi Pak Yuen Tong Bei Gow San Mui Fah Goy Sao Tong Ban Pak Ying Jow Yin Chi Fam Chi Tam Tui Lin Choy Lo Han Tong Long Quan." Now, add all the changes from the different substyles of Praying Mantis (e.g. Eight Step and Bagua, TaiChi/YinYang and Taijiquan-which was added *after* the substyle was already called TaiChiPM, etc.).

And woliveri - feel free to get all offended and write an angry reply calling me all sorts of fun names. I don't really care about your opinion of me anyhow. There are some knowledgeable people on these boards who were nice enough to attempt to explain their understanding of things to you, but it is more than obvious that you aren't really interested. Frankly, you should stop wasting their time.

Hua Lin Laoshi

01-17-2002, 04:31 PM

woliveri
I sorry that's not what you want to hear but that's how I feel about the subject. That's not from the Temple, it's from me. I don't see anyone else here being asked to explain their system. If you didn't learn this stuff while at Wah Lum then I'm sorry but I'm not going to teach it all to you now.

The characteristics of Jut Sow are the same as with other styles of Northern Mantis. I'm sure you don't like that answer either. You are apparently looking for something that isn't there. What differentiates Jut Sow from other mantis styles I can't say. I don't know enough about other mantis styles. Maybe the Pong Lai group can answer that since they have some background in Wah Lum as well as Plum Flower, 7 Star and whatever. As far as I know there is no super secret dim mak Jut Sow techniques. It's just basic Northern Mantis. Wah Lum uses techniques from the Tam Tui style and the Jut Sow style. It combines the two to make a third.

And you didn't ask anyone "to define the characteristics of a jut sow technique", you stated you didn't see any and wanted to know where they were and if anyone was learning them. The answer is "in the forms" and "yes we are learning them".

SaMantis
Glad to see you thinking and working it out. Backing up 2 or 3 move takes you out of Soy Long Pow Choy so it wouldn't fit the description of one move against 3 attackers. I would say take it from the cross block to the punch.

woliveri

01-17-2002, 07:04 PM

That's ok HL no problem. It is a little irritating when asking a serious question about WL and then have to wade through 30 posts of "why are you attacking WL" statements. As an old student with experience with WL I was hoping for a civil answer to my question to understand what jut sow was and what parts were in the system. I honestly have no idea and frankly I've had enough of this conversation to really care less at this point.

As you know I don't currently practice WL nor do I plan to in the future. My path is different now.

Peace

flem

01-17-2002, 09:21 PM

hua lin laoshi

you must have a different technique in mind, the "two swallows..." technique follows the punch at sky, then down into say ping ma- cross fists- open out, it is like a big backfist in hill climb. i could only find one source though i have seen several it is in the back of bruce lee the tao of gung fu. there are several styles represented there, the mantis photos all resemble or even mimic those in WL. two swallows fly through the forest" is pictured, but though the application is shown, its app against a third opponent is unclear.

by the way, when tong long created PM, do you think other monks said," why do you call it praying mantis, the footwork is monkey, that punch is roll in punch at ear- hey, tong long, except for the way you hold your hands that's shaolin, why don't you call it shaolin PM-- or hey, why call it PM at all!

samantis, other WLers

i just read this third page, apparrently we are on the same tech, but my understanding is that the right arm is straight- either way if you see the photo in the book pow choy will work the same- and hua lin laoshi is correct- the technique by itself takes out three by itself- w/out the previous or follow up technique. perhaps the 3rd (unseen in photo) is the cross fist, i don't know.
by the way, i appreciated your at work story, it reminded me of a student of mine several years ago who would get "caught" in the bank(her work), practicing!

flem

01-17-2002, 09:43 PM

woliveri

didn't i explain enough mantis in 1st form? perhaps i don't understand what you're after. it's either that or you're on the loaded question route. in any case, i don't know what you learned, but the mantis is visible to me. i think you said earlier that you now only do internal, from my humble understanding of tai chi you're REALLY on a difficult road now

woliveri

01-17-2002, 10:22 PM

flem, yeah thanks. This may sound stupid but I really didn't equate mantis techniques with jut sow even though jut sow is the style of mantis we've learned according to the manuals. In my mind I had an idea of "wrestling hands" as Sensitivity training and fighting as in a southern art. My thoughts were that there should be in close one on one training to edify these techniques.

Apparently either I'm wrong or no one else really knows.

Thanks

spiralstair

01-18-2002, 01:38 AM

woliveri: Yes, you're right, you're wrong.Now time to get back on your "different path" with , unfortunately, the same person going down it.

18elders

01-18-2002, 06:03 AM

form-

empty hand forms are for a single opponent, not 3 or 4 people.
That is why it is important to learn the lingchun side of a form to understand the movements you learn. You can then also understand what the other guy is doing , how he is getting around you etc.

Joe Mantis

01-18-2002, 06:39 AM

Hey why is this about Wolvi?

Hua Lin: I'm glad you set the record straight about WL and how it is a combination and not two systems taught.

Everyone:

BUT NO ONE answered my question.
Even if a system is a combo- what are the characteristics of the parent system?
What techniques are mantis (mantis hands aside) what are typical Tam tui techniques, mok gar etc,?

Olethros

01-18-2002, 06:58 AM

"Even if a system is a combo- what are the characteristics of the parent system? What techniques are mantis (mantis hands aside) what are typical Tam tui techniques, mok gar etc,?"

It was my understanding that Mok Gar is not part of the trad. Wah Lum curriculum. GM Chan would teach Mok gar forms, but they were clearly labeled as Mok Gar forms and not WL forms.

Brad

01-18-2002, 07:18 AM

I've seen some southern in Wah Lum routines at tournements, or were these just thrown in for competition?

flem

01-18-2002, 08:39 AM

18elders

i don't know what lingchun means, i assume that means 2 person, or the other side. in any case, i think you are wrong about the forms being against a single oponent. in fact, i think 2 persons are actually more limiting than regular forms because you not only commit your mind to the idea of the app, but also ingrain it through physical training. in other words, i believe it conditions you to defend against an opponent of the same style or similar anyway. but the direction changes in forms alone should be an indicator that you are training against multiple opponents, let alone techniques than attacks that are projected in more than one direction simultaneously.

my understanding of MA is that they are designed to make the style's movements 2nd nature. this is why movements are repeated, and also why there are similar but slightly different versions of techniques throughout any good style- this also explains why simple styles often beat a more advanced stylist, because they more easily engrained. boxing has few technques so they are trained, through repetition, and are immediately available for use, whereas the MAist has a mulitude to learn, it takes quite awhile before any of it even makes sense, let alone be applicable. the other thing about boxing is that the practioner almost immediately learns to hit someone and even more important to be hit, and this is done in a somewhat freestyle environment. so sigle person forms teach the style, but it up to the practitioner to ingrain it, make it second nature, the only thing missing is full contact sparring, which 2 man sets don't come close to equalling- as bruce lee said it's just another form of land swimming

flem

01-18-2002, 09:04 AM

woliveri

obviously each style of praying mantis differs, otherwise they wouln't have different names. i have seen jut sow forms on video, as well as several others. they all share similarities, but as far as senstivity training goes i don't know if they ever had it, though i am sure some do. but even if they were in it does not mean that the creator of WL kept them in. as i said in a previous post, perhaps lee kwan shan added the parts he thought were important at the time- considering his opponents and what they do. take for instance 2 person sets, they use the traditional chambering of the hand at the waist, this allows the defender enough time to grab, or otherwise manipulate the attack wheras we both know that we are going to hit that guy(morethan once) if they try that in real life. now i am not sure if they fought like that back then, but if so, it would be unecessary to have sensitvity training because the opponent could easily be defeated otherwise.
i see it like this. lee kwan shan was skilled in tam tui whose techniques are long range, lots of kicks etc. after learning mantis he took his forms and added the close range skills so that the forms trained all ranges of fighting, the style to me moves in and out constantly. so many people today are taken by the praying mantis, and for some reason try to seperate it, but WL is not jut sow or tam tui, it is both. either one can be learned on it's own

Hua Lin Laoshi

01-18-2002, 09:13 AM

woliveri (and Joe Mantis)
Since I post from work the tension from a couple of projects that aren't working out spilled over to here. I also suffer from occassional bouts of stupidity and fail to see something right in front of my face. Sometimes I find that one of my great personal revelations is just common knowledge to others. Oh well.

Seven Kicks is Tam Tui, Little Mantis and Big Mantis are Jut Sow. Lohan and 2nd Form are Tam Tui but they have some mantis. One of the characteristics of Jut Sow is slapping the forearms which I'm sure you've seen and done many times. Jut Sow can be seen in Continuous Broadsword (monkey step), 3rd Form (mantis hook/rising elbow). Look at the beginning of Little Mantis and near the end of Straight Form. Tam Tui is characterized by low sweeps, stomping, heel kicks (we all LOVE those Tam Tui exercises :D). Characteristics of Wah Lum are slapping the forearm and stomping. This comes from Jut Sow and Tam Tui. If you see a lot of stomping and slapping it's probably Wah Lum.

I'm sure you remember 2nd Exercise. That's a Jut Sow exercise. Very basic. We also do a 2-man drill based on it in order to understand the moves and get the feel of applying it on a live opponent. I think you're looking at it with a pre-concieved notion of what you want it to be so you fail to see what it is.

Joe Mantis
I don't know enough Mok Gar to know what is 'typical' of the style. Let me research that and get back to you if you're really interested.

18 Elders
The empty hands forms you're learning may be intended for single opponents but that doesn't apply throughout the Martial Arts world. There are forms based on multiple opponents. In my early Kenpo days we practiced sections of forms with opponents and there were multiple attackers. However, I do feel the trend to look for multiple opponents when searching for applications to the moves in a form are just a convenient way to come up with a quick and simple solution for the move. In some cases the move is against a single opponent and not easily recognized. It reminds me of the stories I've heard from guys that learned overseas or learned during the 'don't teach foreigners' days. Ummm, that's a block. Yea, a block. Definitely a block.

Brad
Any Wah Lum you see outside of a Wah Lum school is most likely modified. We occassionally have the opportunity to learn outside the system and draw on everything we know when constructing a show or tournament form.

Olethros

01-18-2002, 09:33 AM

"I've seen some southern in Wah Lum routines at tournements, or were these just thrown in for competition?"

Those might have been a Plum flower form or included stuff from Plum flower forms. Some of those forms have a tendency to look "Southern".

Joe Mantis

01-18-2002, 10:10 AM

Thanks Hua Lin.

I appreciate the reply.

SaMantis

01-18-2002, 11:44 AM

hua lin,

thanks for the encouragement, now I'm looking at other forms.

In straight form, would the movements near the end -- from the grab in golden chicken stance up to the grab-leg, chop-downward movement -- be considered jut sow?

(I've gotta start writing down the names of these movements!)

Sam

18elders

01-18-2002, 12:17 PM

the 2 person sets are for single opponent, the direction change is your opponent getting around you(angles, etc). YOu don't punch this guy and then joe attacks from the other side, he counters and moved. do you have angles in your forms?
do really think the sidewave punch at the end of sixteen hands is a knockout blow? He blocks and comes back at you what's your move?
Wah lum 2 person set, are you fighting multiple people? NO, does your opponent change direction? YES, did you change direction? YES

You don't like 2 person forms
YOu won't learn how to execute your techniques well and learn them well. Of course you have to get it in your muscle memory, how else do you think you will do it without thinking about the moves. REACTION. That is were your 2 person forms, drills and counters come into play. If you drill the heck out of them it becomes reaction.
Learn the form, the 2 person, drills & applications, counters and then mix and match which becomes free sparring. Like i said
before, it is a 5 step process to learning you kung fu so it becomes a reaction without thinking.

SA MANTIS-
Nick Scrima is having his tournament this year, it is only go to be for one day, April 6th i think. I'm sure they will still have a master's demo also

Hua lin- is the test in march going to be in tampa?

flem

01-18-2002, 04:40 PM

18elders

i am not against 2 man sets, i am just saying they have their place- though i see that what i wrote is contrary. what i was implying was that 2 man sets condition you to respond to your partner's move, hence you are commiting to memory their attack/ counter- this puts in your "mind" a right time or only time to use your technique. so unless the free style environment makes up alot more of your training than 2 persons, then you will be screwed fighting someone like myself who doesn't know the "right" response to your technique(this is not a challenge). also, i don't understand the side wave punch thing- it is at the beginning of the form- which also helps illustrate my point. you said it is not a knock out. that's just it, it is really easy to jump around and "disappear" in a 2 person, but that just isn't reality against a real opponent. do you free spar? if so, does your sparring resemble your forms 2 man or otherwise? and have you sparred someone outside your style- way outside, a boxer, tai kwan do, etc, and again do you still resemble your forms?

flem

01-18-2002, 04:50 PM

samantis

i do not know the names of those movements either, but i think they are awesome. how do you apply them, the punching and forearm slapping,that is. aside from teaching you to keep the rear hand foreward and defending, i think the slapping has several key uses besides conditioning the arms- besides a heavy bag or tree is better for that anyway. 1 is trapping the opponents arm and using the uppercut mtion to break the arm, 2 trap to apply chin na, 3 a parry to make room for the uppercut-

18elders

01-18-2002, 07:57 PM

we don't just jump into free sparring in our school. We don't want people fighting without technique.
first we teach the techniques(i'll use guo lo tzai for an example).
we drill the heck out of it, paying attention to proper movement, body position etc. Inside, outside, changing stances, then once you have it down you pick up the speed and intensity. Then you go all out in a free style situation, you have to stick to your technique but the other guy can do what he wants. This way you train your technique so you don't just become a kick boxer.
If you train your techniques this way then you learn how to apply them so your fighting will be technique.
Yes i have sparred kung fu people, tae kwon do, kuk sool, ju-jitsu, karate, and boxers.
why do boxers stick to boxing? wrestlers to wrestling? They drill their technique and that is what they use.
If you drill your kung fu technique then that is what you will use.
Learning the 2 person is only one more of the steps to your free sparring knowledge.
It is difficult to explain it, if you ever come to tampa stop by the school and i could show you what we do.

flem

01-18-2002, 09:54 PM

18elders

i agree with the majority of what you said, but you didn't address the point of being trapped in using the technique only as it is used in a two man. for example, pong lai said at one time that he uses the hook and golden chicken to defend the knee kick, besides the technique that i presented in that forum, that defensive posture would also be in trouble if the kick were thrown half way and then became an ax kick, or if it again were a fake or preperation for various take downs. i know that there is a counter for everything, i am not saying that that defense is bad, what i am saying is that if you are artificially conditioned to respond to a particular move then someone attacking in an unfamiliar way will probably catch you off guard. another example(sorry) if you think about it, it's actually somewhat easier to fight a person of similar skill than a novice, simply because they move the way they are "supposed" to.
oh, and one more thing about your schools sparring, i believe you learn how to fight by fighting.

18elders

01-19-2002, 02:37 PM

i understand what you are trying to say but you don't become locked into that only application, it is part of the process to being able to execute your technique without thinking about it.I'ts part of your framework for your ability to fight.
You said you use that double knees together to block a kick to the knees, what happens after he kicks to your knee and then roundhouses your head off?You have to have the ability to be able to counter his next move.

learn to fight by fighting-
this is true but do you want to learn to fight using your style of kung fu?
If you don't know the technique how can you use it when you fight?
You have to learn to use your praying mantis techniques to be able to fight with them.
Anyone can fight, but can you fight using your kung fu technique:?
If not then why are you learning kung fu, just be a brawler.

flem

01-19-2002, 09:56 PM

18elders
i guess we are at a stalemate in our discussion! however i can't let the round house against my tech go. 1st, the movement is foreward so there is not enough room to throw the kick and the final tech in the series will pick it up as the kicker's groin is crushed with my chop.
since you 2man guys can so readily disappear, and because your wave punch example worked well to explain your single adversary theory- what about the two kicks that take you into the 2nd pass of lo han. both are long range, do you think that anyone is that fast? i have many examples if you want them.
also, have you experienced many or any technique similarities between your present style and WL?

Joe Mantis

01-20-2002, 10:30 AM

FLEM

2 man forms must be done as if fighting. Most styles do them as "dances." (Each person leads the other into a move)
Most 2 man forms are not done correctly.

Also in two person drills, (2 man forms are 2 person drills but with a lot of different techniques) one is praciticing recognizing movement and working on perception. Thorugh time and effort one becomes accustomed to the movement of opponent's body and can then respond accordingly.

Remember we are not talking about "basic self-defense" where if the aggressor does "A" then I do "B."

Any good martial arts that teaches the martial aspect depends on two person work.
Forms are just that - 2 person work.
However one must be taught HOW to work/do 2 person forms or else they will forever be in a 2 man "dance."

flem

01-20-2002, 10:47 AM

joemantis

i understand what you are saying, but you are looking at it from a theoretical approach. in the nine years that i have taught, it has become abundantly clear that it is the practitioner who either comes to class with fight experiece or the one who gains it while studying that makes any real strde it understanding the how and whys. as i said before the 2man ANYTHING is just preperation but it has to leave alot to be desired. it is one thing to go full blast, be it drills, 2 man form, or whatever. but it a totally different once you get your bell rung- then all these so called advanced techniques go out the window, then you try to cover and hope the other guy is not superiorly conditioned.
i assume you are a pong lai person. if so, i suggest you spar in class or out with gloves and a mouthpiece. i would be interested to know how much of the two man skills remain intact or are used

oh, and as for your dance theory, most may dance, i never did. in fact i both landed and was landed upon on many occassions and it just aint the same.

18elders

01-20-2002, 11:04 AM

i think you are you are either disageeing for the heck of it or you just don't understand.

any idiot can fight but if YOU DON'T KNOW YOUR TECHNIQUES YOU CAN'T USE THEM.

i think you just don't get what we are saying because you weren't taught the apps and 2 person drills and everything else that goes with it in wah lum.

we don't want to fight without using our techniques, that's why we drill the 2 person and counters so you will use them when you fight.

think of a fencer, he doesn't just hack away, he uses his blocks and counters etc. the person with the better techn. wins.

taking a hit- we hit the hell out of each other so we are training all aspects of it

you said you teach- what style do you teach if you aren't in wah lum anymore?

did you know art d'agastino, wallace cupp, tracey flemming, sean cochran, pablo, tom turcotte or any of their students?

spiralstair

01-20-2002, 11:58 AM

Art, Wallace, Tracy, Sean, Pablo, and Tom. All got too big to have a teacher like Master Chan. Now some call themselves "Master", so they must be, who can tell? Wah Lum's loss? Or their own? Time and behavior will tell. Till then the rest of us can try and improve in miniscule increments.

flem

01-20-2002, 12:17 PM

18elders

apparently your techniques do not work if you, as you say, hit the hell out of one another. if they did, you wouldn't need the whole set! i do not misunderstand what you are saying. you are saying that you train the techniques of your style in as realistic manner as possible. what you evidently do not unerstand about what i am saying is that however worthy the drill, it is not the real thing. i train apps just as you do but because what i do is not a 2 person set does not mean it is ineffective. on the contrary, it leaves the door open to innovation. if i learned the one man version of your form i could not only(conceivably) come up with the same app as the set, but also many others. i would like to know the application to elbow to toe, i undestand that the mantis hook is up and behind, but as far as application goes, power-wise i cannot understand it's effectiveness

i am quite certain that you were as taken by the previous styles that you have studied as the one you are now practicing, obviously so, atleast with WL, by the time you put in.

as far as what i teach, why is that important? are you unsure that i am qualified to hold this discussion? i know all of the people you mentioned except TT.

by the way, you always seem angry, though it is difficult to tell that through typing?

flem

01-20-2002, 12:20 PM

spiralstair

not all of them got too big, some did, with others i think they got tired of the game

18elders

01-20-2002, 01:36 PM

hit each other-
when we kick we kick hard, when we hit same thing so when you block of course you're going to feel it. it's not the techn's don't work it is we do it with power behind it.

so what style do you teach?
who was your wah lum teacher?

do i think you are qualified? Can't answer that since you won't answer any of my questions about your training history and teachers.

what students of art's do you know?

am i always angry? as long as i take my medication i'm okay.

tired of the game? explain the game.

flem

01-20-2002, 05:58 PM

18elders

again, i'm not puting down what you do. don't any of your blows ever go in unblocked? if no then the two of you are dancing (so to speak), if so then it should stun or injure the partner, either way it will break from the 2 man.

i don't really want to say who i am. in fact that is why my profile is the way it is. it is more, i feel as wisdom rather having so much to do with hiding anything, seeing people like CV and whoever that other one is. all someone has to do is be misunderstood here and the place goes berserk, then people as i mentioned come out of the shadows. i am very familiar w/ the WL "family", from the years that i was there. i have also studied tkd, shorin ryu karate, and northern shaolin. what do i teach? lets just say tai chi with material that looks alot like KF in it.

the game? you were there long enough to have played.

SaMantis

01-20-2002, 08:28 PM

18elders,

thanks for the info on Nick Scrima's tournament! I hope I can attend. :)

flem,

great info on the straight form movements -- i'll try to visualize them as I practice. (Unless I can convince my training partner to let me break his arm -- you know, for educational purposes). Thanks!

Sam

snappingknee

01-20-2002, 09:19 PM

18elders " empty hand forms are for a single opponent, not 3 or 4 people"

To say that empty hand forms are for single opponents is wrong.

Question #14 page 29 of my WLKF handbook states,"What does Eight - Chain Punch teach...striking multiple opponents"

In fact the very begining of 16 hands is also attacking multiple opponents.

Little Open Gate also has several instances of attacking multiple opponents. ex. moving from Cern Chung Choy to elbow attack.

You have overlooked important techniques, I suggest you go back over your earlier forms with your Sifu.

flem

01-20-2002, 09:27 PM

samantis

show me yours and i'll show you mine. hey, what do you think? do you have other uses of the movement? you tell me one.

flem

01-20-2002, 09:30 PM

snappingknee
hanks, i forgot about that. but i think WL anything is useless to 18elders.

Joe Mantis

01-21-2002, 09:34 AM

FLEM

Thanks for your reply.
The student definatly has to bring oneself to the training.
They either make or break their experience.
I agree that in class all out and the real fight are two different things. HOWEVER, I do think that the training will prepare one for the real thing. Furthermore the more diligent the practice one does, the closer he/she will come to using their techniques in a fight. Basically they will not revert back to "kickboxing."
Of course, the techniques will not be exactly like one practices in forms.
If all training goes (techniques) go out the door in the real thing, why train at all?

Also, I never implied that you danced in your two man sets. and it wasn't intended that way either.

Why does it matter if I'm a Pong Lai person or not?

Joe Mantis

01-21-2002, 09:44 AM

FLEM

My Shr fu was trained using two man sets/ drill/ knocking the crap out of one another. I can attest that he can use his techniques in "the real thing."

18elders

01-21-2002, 10:06 AM

16 hands-
did you ever think the guy blocked and got behind you making you change your direction?

flem

01-21-2002, 11:30 AM

18elders

perhaps if all one knows is 16 hands then it may be possible to get behind them. but for someone with experience it is just impracticle to practice, unless of course by practicing it you become quicker or something. i can tell you this, you're not getting behind me without a ninja smoke bomb!

joemantis

have you seen your shrfu in a fight, or are you drawing conclusions based on his skill in class? i am not putting him down, i don't even know him, i am suggesting that no matter how realistic your training seems it is just training. 2 person sets are fine, my point about my not dancing was simply to illustate that i have experienced them full blast, have hit and been hit doing them and i have also been hit in freestyle environment - and of the two it was the latter that i feel is both indespensable and far lacking in most classes( due mostly to liability probably, and that participation will likely diminish quickly).
also, i said before but i did not ellaborate on, during my time in WL the most skilled practitioners were often, and probably still are, seen as the best or most skilled practitioner. people often have the belief that because one is awesome in forms that they must also be awesome in fighting - but that is not always the case. also along the same lines are those who appear as though they are tough- anyway i know from experience that it is often the poindexter, the guy that doesn't make alot of "noise" who is often a highly skilled fighter. it would be easy to use names to explain this but that would be wrong.

Joe Mantis

01-21-2002, 02:13 PM

FLEM

I think you and I are talking about the same stuff. The real thing is the real thing, no matter how close to realistic training is.
I agree that if one is good in forms does not mean that they can fight. Example, WL. There are a lot of great forms guys in that system.

I think that where we differ is the training and the how to achieve the use of one's kung fu. Obviously it is possible because people have been doing it for thousands of years.

How do you train your students to use their kung fu if/when in a fight? As a teacher I'm assuming that this is your goal for your students. Do you train your students to use their techniques of your system, or do you revert to basic punching and kicking "kickboxing" when it comes to the fighting aspect?

Furthermore as an experienced practioner I also assume that you can tell someone's MARTIAL ability by the way they move.

snappingknee

01-21-2002, 08:47 PM

16hands-- No one on this earth can block a thrown punch and move 180' to my backside in the 1/3rd of a second it takes to complete the movement. If you can actually visualize this, or better yet accomplish it, you should start your own art. Could you teach me those moves I saw in the Matrix??? I can see your point from the change in stance/punch in a 90' movement but not a 180' movement. If you disagree offer a detailed explanation.

flem

01-21-2002, 09:21 PM

joe mantis

i teach as i was taught. that is i teach the postures, the sequence of movement and most importantly i teach the rules of body posture- for example, the proper alignment of each bodypart in relation to the others, both still and moving. as for application, that is a personal matter. i feel that the past ready or fighting posture is that of jeet kune do, which is in reality a stand up mantis posture. if a guy comes to me with say a real skill in boxing, like having been in golden gloves, i am not going to say that kung fu is better. instead, i am going to show him how the KF can fit with his aquired skill. i believe that everyone has unque ability and insight, so i do not try to make them conform to a standard, with the exception of the fundamental rules that i spoke of earlier.
a typical application session of mine is to introduce an app have the students work it and then break away from it- by that i mean they work out counters against it. the following session is a similar technique or one that neutralizes most or all of the counters in the previous class.
yes i can judge another by the way they move, but that has more to do with their focus, more than the movement itself, atleast as far as experienced practitioners anyway

18elders

01-22-2002, 06:13 AM

a good example is the change of direction in the first run of beng bu.
think about your footwork, i bet i could show you how to do it very easily.
Have you ever trained in bagua? It is not difficult to get behind someone

flem

01-22-2002, 06:47 AM

18elders

i don't know the form. could you explain what happens that allows you to get behind and what position you are in, as far as range goes, once you're there?
my impession of getting behind in your set is that it teaches the attacker a weakness in that they do not respond by following the defender's movement.
also, what about the applcation of elbow to toe? is it a secret, or is the application useless?

Hua Lin Laoshi

01-22-2002, 08:21 AM

snappingknee
"16hands-- No one on this earth can block a thrown punch and move 180' to my backside in the 1/3rd of a second it takes to complete the movement".

I can. Step left (on an angle)/left arm blocking the punch/Lady Horse/step left while turning out of LHS/backfist to back of head. Basically, you throw a right punch and I roll around your right side and attack your rear. Sounds like a lot but it can be executed quickly.

Don't forget to utilize your stances!

I also learned a simple move in Kenpo where you step left (angle) blocking with the left and swinging the right fist up and across hitting back of head. This defends against a right punch where attacker steps in with puch. With a lunging attack you will effectivly be behind the attacker. Different than the opening move of 16 Hands.

flem
I agree with your position concerning teaching people with other training how your techniques integrate or compliment previously learned techniques. When I bounced around the Karate world I hated starting in a new school and being told "That's not how to punch, this is the right way". There isn't a right way or wrong way, just stylistic differences.

18elders
I don't think you're going to get away from that elbow-to-toe statement. :D :D :D

I also do not know Beng Bu so could you find another example? Or is it along the same lines as my example above to snappingknee?

flem

01-22-2002, 11:44 AM

hua lin laoshi

practically speaking i don't think the step behind is possible. i have trained several techniques that use it but to me, unless your opponent is using a punch like the 3 long punchs in lo han, then they cannot be very skilled. also, with the possible exception of dung tui, the apps lack any real effect- and even that one is not applied 180 degrees(correctly), in fact the one you describe seems to be applied earlier than 180. i agree with angles, don't get me wrong. but getting behind me, like i said- 18elders needs the ninja smoke bomb.

18elders

01-23-2002, 06:27 AM

i guess it isn't a secret but you seem so determined it wouldn't work whatever it is so i feel there is no reason to tell you. You don't want to answer many of my questions either. If you think of it hard enough you could probably think of something.

hua lin, - good example, i'm glad to see you don't need ninja smoke bombs either!

flem- do you do guo lo tzai? Have you ever had your punch plucked? Where is your body going? Not too difficult to get past the guy.

flem

01-23-2002, 08:41 AM

18elders

the only questions of yours that i have not answered concern my profile, which as i said previously -seems logical to me since so many want to attack one another. i assume the application is useless otherwise you would say. i believe you brought it up simply to demonstrate that you have the inner knowledge where you are now, whereas WLers are being kept in the dark. so, i assume you read my previous post on angles? i have no arguement there. i do with the 180 thing though.
have i ever had my punch plucked? yes- in practice- not in free sparring

i gave the elbow to toe some thought- hook opponents kick, sweep leg, elbow strike- close?
by the way, have you been taking your meds?

18elders

01-24-2002, 08:42 AM

your close.
yep, i've been taking my medicine, i doubled up on the dosage so i will be a happier person.
I don't think by telling who you are in your profile will make people want to attack you. People can attack you now without knowing who you are.
We may know each other but you won't give an idea of who your sifu was or where you trained?

flem

01-24-2002, 09:32 AM

18elders
no, i'm not talking about verbal attacks, i'm talking about all these challenges people are so quick to issue. but back to our discussion. i replied to your scenerio with 16 hands and it is obviously going no where. but you did not respond to my lo han scenerio. if i heel kick at the end of the first pass, how is it possible for the same person to be in range to use the back side kick?( without the smoke bomb, that is!). i agree that the majority of moves are best applied against a single opponent, but i think that the changes of direction are to train one to counter multiple opponents. remember that these arts were designed around war, not simply personal duels. in short, i think that you are limiting your options, perhaps simply because of your belief in 2 mans. really, to me, the arts are a total preparation. i think even limiting our discussions to combat doesn't do justice to the arts. look at the straight kick. we learned it straight up. and later master chan does it straight and across the body- this trains both sides of the hamstring, as opposed to just one side. it is interesting how complete MA training is.

Hua Lin Laoshi

01-24-2002, 09:36 AM

My understanding is the original exercise was kiss-the-toe but since very few people can do that it was modified to elbow-to-toe. Kiss-the-toe is the ultimate goal of the exercise. Sorry, I don't know of any application for kiss-the-toe. My initial thought on elbow-to-toe application is that it's an elbow strike. That seems obvious. What I don't see is how a worthwhile target is laying across your hooked foot. If the hooked foot was a trip there would be no target for the elbow.

I just got a farfetched idea but it's too difficult to explain. Probably won't work anyhow but it involves hooking the foot to trip while locking opponents arm. The final position would basically be elbow-to-toe but applying a lock as you press down towards toe. Hey SaMantis, you busy?

flem

01-24-2002, 09:57 AM

hua lin lao shi

have you seen thier posture? the elbow extends in the stretch while the opposite hand is extentended in the opposite direction in a hooking pose- which i have found to be superior to WL for those who cannot "kiss the toe". it is because of the rear hand and because thy tend to use a "chopping" sweep when standing, that i thought that the sweep and elbow would arrive simultaneously. if that is not it, then the extendended leg could simply trap the opponents supporting leg. in any case the elbow better land 'cause your face is right there begging to be hit.

Pong Lai

01-24-2002, 11:16 AM

Not being smart, but the name is actually "Cloud Hands, Stretch the Leg" exercise. AT least how it is named in our school and other Asian school where I have seen the similar exercise.

Also, "kiss the toe" is fairly easy", after a good warm up, the actual goal to to touch your chin to the toe. Of course unless you have an unusually protruding chin bone or elongated skull. Not that mine is perfectly round.

Also, good apps to the exercise, guys. I don't think 18 elders was suggesting that these exercises are keys to fighting, though generally stating that in Martial ARts and in particularly Chinese MA, everything does have a use or application. Another prime example would be the simple exercise called "Fu Yang". Where you stand feet shoulder apart, bend waist backwards looking back and then forward looking between your legs, hands hooked in the air. Legs always locked, focusing on strengthening the lower back, stretching hams and shoulders. In appl. this is used in combo with a leg grab (grabbinb to outside of a side kick, etc.) and then hooked in such a position to pick the other man up (backwards) on one's back and throw him to the ground. Also an example of moving to one's back side with one step.

Just ffod for thought.

18 elders, the medicine is working well.

Flem, No one will pose challenges. I am getting old and frail, 18 elders is the strong, fiesty one. Obviously you have checked out our school, observant at Screema's seminar, and / or studied with TM to know the exercise. Stop by the school anytime for tea.

Pong Lai

01-24-2002, 11:17 AM

Not being smart, but the name can also be called "Cloud Hands, Stretch the Leg" exercise. AT least how it is named in our school and other Asian school where I have seen the similar exercise.

Also, "kiss the toe" is fairly easy", after a good warm up, the actual goal to to touch your chin to the toe. Of course unless you have an unusually protruding chin bone or elongated skull. Not that mine is perfectly round.

Also, good apps to the exercise, guys. I don't think 18 elders was suggesting that these exercises are keys to fighting, though generally stating that in Martial ARts and in particularly Chinese MA, everything does have a use or application. Another prime example would be the simple exercise called "Fu Yang". Where you stand feet shoulder apart, bend waist backwards looking back and then forward looking between your legs, hands hooked in the air. Legs always locked, focusing on strengthening the lower back, stretching hams and shoulders. In appl. this is used in combo with a leg grab (grabbinb to outside of a side kick, etc.) and then hooked in such a position to pick the other man up (backwards) on one's back and throw him to the ground. Also an example of moving to one's back side with one step.

Just ffod for thought.

18 elders, the medicine is working well.

Flem, No one will pose challenges. I am getting old and frail, 18 elders is the strong, fiesty one. Obviously you have checked out our school, observant at Screema's seminar, and / or studied with TM to know the exercise. Stop by the school anytime for tea.

Hua Lin Laoshi

01-24-2002, 12:00 PM

flem
I haven't you seen thier posture so I guess I'll never get it. Even with the other arm movement I still don't see a viable target near the tripping or sweeping foot. I'll still keep kicking it around.

At the end of the first run of 18 Elbows after finishing the attacker (hook/elbow/turn/elbow/step back/block and chop to throat) you immedialtely turn and defend attack. This person cannot be the one you just finished off, even if you didn't finish him off.

Pong Lai
Kiss-the-toe may be fairly easy for you but I haven't seen many who are able to do it. I'm fairly flexable and even at my best I can't do it. Some people are long in the leg, others are long in the body. If my hip to foot is longer than my hip to head it ain't happening. At least that's what I think is part of the problem for me.

We have applications for ebay and bow so I guess it makes sense that there would be applications for everything.

SaMantis

01-24-2002, 03:37 PM

hua lin,

i'm usually in on Saturdays if you want to try an app -- sounds interesting!

I was thinking about the elbow-to-toe exercise ... I'm just now learning little mantis (yeah, I know, I'm a baby when it comes to kung fu!) ... and there's a part just after the beginning where you move from cat-stance, hook-mantis into seven-star-stance, strike-downward. The strike is supposed to be very low, perhaps against the opponent's leg?

Anyway, the move requires a bit of flexibility and seems like elbow-to-toe will improve this movement, even if the applications between exercise and stance are different. Also, in seven-star stance the foot is hooked upward (just like in elbow-to-toe), and in the move after this one you come up into golden chicken. In this transition could you hook the opponent's leg and throw him off balance as you come up?

I'm just pondering the move ... feel free to tell me if it has any merit. :)

Sam

flem

01-24-2002, 09:41 PM

samantis

i hope you don't mind if i jump in- i think to hook the foot would depend on your opponents weight distribution- they would have to be light on the foot initially and transferring weight to it as you pull - otherwise it would be useless. your arm attack is good to me i believe the 1st strike breaks, the left hand slaps it away and the 2nd hand attack punches through. the knee to me servres 2 purposes, to defend against low kick and to cover the lower gate. by the way, what happened to the straiht form apps?

hua lin lau shi

you seem to be thinking of striking at their/your foot area, i was saying it strikes on the way to the foot.

pong lai

my, i thought you accepted a challenge and were never going to be heard from again! i don't drink tea, it doesn't help my drunken boxing.
seriously, it is not the regulars here that give me concern. it's those who read but do not speak, besides what's the big deal? if i say something you do not agree with you can ignore it, discuss it whatever. there are alot of people here i do not know. in fact i have looked at few profiles- because 1 i don't give a ****, 2 i think i can learn from anyone, 3 the profile may or may not be accurate
but i'll stop by if i'm in the area, i'd be glad to.

Tainan Mantis

01-24-2002, 11:21 PM

Wah Lum example of behind the opponent

The third takedown in Little Mantis you spin around in a circle as you kick and move forward and finish with single finger.
In this two person exercise the opponent gets out of the throw and is behind you.
If you had been succesful in the throw, then the opponent would have been on the floor, but the escape causes him to get behind you.
So in practice you deal with this situation where someone is throwing a punch to the back of your neck(ouch!) and you deal with it using the next moves of the form.

Of special note:
From my research the single finger technique in Little and Big Mantis is called double closing hands in other PM styles and doesn't have the one finger point up, nor the "yee".
It can be subsumed under Wang Lang's 8th, and final, rigid technique as can the turning throw just before it.

In fact this throw is most likely were the original name of the form comes from-which means to bolt shut the iron door.

This single finger method was a modification most likely by Chan Wan Ching, but I'm not sure.

SaMantis

01-24-2002, 11:39 PM

Flem,

no, I don't mind, any information will help improve my form! You're right, hooking the opponent's leg with your foot probably wouldn't work unless you knew they were transferring weight and not grounded. Sorry about not getting right back to you on straight form, I went through it a couple times this week and agree with your summation of it -- the left hand slaps the forearm to reinforce the idea that it should be there as a guard; also to illustrate that the hand can be used to trap the opponent's arm at certain points. I also discovered that if you slap hard enough, your arm gets *****in' red! :D

Tainan Mantis,

Interesting that the single finger method is different in other PM styles. Maybe CWC created a sort of "signature" to identify a Wah Lum stylist?

SolarStance

01-25-2002, 09:33 AM

I seem to recall somewhere a while ago my Sifu mentining something about the single finger "yee" having something to do with the boxer rebellion, but I could be wrong. This might be different than the finger postures at the beginning of WL forms like Fan Cha. Please don't quote me on that, or try to bash my sifu.

Also, as far as applications of techniques go, or at least the elbow to toe thing, remember the roots of kung fu at Shaolin temple. If memory serves me correctly, the origional techniques taught my TaMo were stretches, not necissarily used for fighting. So is there an application to elbow to toe? Probably. Would I want to try it in an altercatoin? Probably not...

)))Solar Stance(((

flem

01-25-2002, 10:39 AM

solarstance

good point. the best post i ever read here involved saying an application can be costrued from changing a baby's diaper, though i cannot remember who said it. i think it is best as a strech as well. in fact, am i the only one to have noticed that elbow to toe has been adopted by aerobic and other exercise fields? as i said before, i think this app was brought up to show one's inside knowledge of PM and nothing more.

samantis

i thought you were shunning me. using the right arm alone in the straight form app is really good. the uppercut motion defends against the opponent's left hand, clearing it to the outside so that the punch is delivred inside their guard- at which time the left is used to defend the opponent's other hand.

Hua Lin Laoshi

01-25-2002, 01:16 PM

SaMantis
The beginning of Little Mantis is a break. That move could also attack the leg or block. Raising the right arm blocks (opponent broke free from break and attacks) while the left hand strikes then right punch. I could also grab and pull down low punching to the head. There are multiple scenerios for the opening moves. I'm sure you guys (and gals) can think of other variations.
Also, the Chut Sing Ma can attack the foot (stomping heel kick) or hook the leg throwing opponent off balance finishing with the right punch sending him backwards to the ground.

Flem
The Chut Sing Ma (hooked foot) when applied to opponents foot is used to stomp the foot or trip. When followed by Golden Chicken the hook is applied to the back of the knee, not the foot or ankle. Golden Chicken is more than just a leg block.

You're correct in that I was thinking the target was where the elbow was at the end of the move. I wasn't thinking of the follow through.

Tainan Mantis
I guess I'm a little dense today. I'm lost on your Little Mantis example. I know what section you're talking about but I guess I missed the throw. After the Dung Tui/Weong Chang Tui/LHS turn (the 3rd kick was taken out years ago)/scrape off single finger there is a grab and sweep. So you're saying that with the LHS turn you're throwing? That doesn't really seem to fit the moves.

NorthernMantis

01-25-2002, 04:18 PM

Hey guys I'm back.

SolarStance is correct (have you watched cult master lately?:D )

The one finger palm was a sign used to communicate between rebel groups and to see who was on what side during the oppression of the Qing government.

One more good point that our friend SolarStance has showed is that some ercersises are simply excercises that are meant to improve health and condition.

Jack Squat

01-25-2002, 08:37 PM

Hello all.

I would like to comment on a few of the current themes of the thread.

Flem & SaMantis-
RE: slapping the forarm with piet choy (as in Little Mantis, Straight Form, etc), I agree with all explainations/applications offered, but I feel that the biggest reason for slapping the forearm is to insure that fajing is being employed.

The single finger method with the "yee" is (in my humble opinion) the kusow or "bridge hand" of Hung Gar. This goes back to the Southern influence of Wah Lum. In fact, in the WL red book on page 26 (and other places), Master Chan states "So 36 hands is a combination of 5 different styles including the Hong (a.k.a. "Hung, as in Hung Gar, which is Southern) style and also the northern moves". This is a signature move from the Hung system and it appears in many WL forms (36 Hands, 18 elbows, First Form, Little Mantis, Big Mantis, etc). I'm not saying that it's good or bad, just saying that it's there. The red book is a wealth of information-all interested in the WL system should get it.
It is written from a series of lectures that Master Chan gave in the seventies (older is better sometimes).

Also, regarding the whole application to elbow to toe issue-
18 Elders stated that there is an application to all the basic exercises. He also said that he never learned this until he left the system and I'm sure (by what he posts) that he went ****her in the system than I did. I also never learned the applications to the 8 basic exercises. However, in the WL red book, on page 68, Master Chan states "In every technique that you learn, there is a certain amount of practical application. Starting with every move in the first 6 basic exercises. These you should learn for their application, not just as exercises: Bai Fut Sao, Whut Yu, Jao Ma, Maat Hurl, Chieh Tieh, Pow Choi, and Jieh Yeah...."

Apparently 18 Elders is right!

;)

Jack Squat

01-25-2002, 08:44 PM

flem

01-25-2002, 08:57 PM

hua lin lao shi

like the behind the knee idea, never dawned on me. i don't understand tainans throw either, perhaps he can give detail?

jack squat

insure fa jing to whom? to the practitioner or the teacher grading the performance? why does one need that for insurance when it can be felt otherwise?
i do not think anyone questioned the validity of 18elders "basics" post, atleast that was not my intent. i wanted to know the app. as well as the intent for which it was given. it seems to me that it implied that the "secrets" were being held back, and i do not think that is the case.

Tainan Mantis

01-25-2002, 11:54 PM

I'll start the explanation of the throw from left 7* stance with left mantis hook right groin strike. If you know which move I'm refering to hopefull you can follow my meaning. If it isn't clear just say so.

Partner:left stance left punch
Form performer: left grab.
right leg step behind P's left leg in 7* stance
Right groin strike

P:Right downblock (to protect groin)
F:left hand continue to hold P's left wrist.
Right groin strike hand smashes into P's left elbow to break it while right leg kicks P's left knee(both of hands must move together slightly to break elbow).

P:Bend left elbow so it doesn't break
Step back with left leg as it is kicked so right leg is now forward.
F: Don't fight P's pulling power. Follow him while firmly holding his left hand.
No need to use the second kick to kick his knee. But perform that same type of motion to make your right foot land on the ground next to P's right foot all the quicker.
Step behind with left foot(like a lady horse stance in motion) and perform the counterclockwise twist to throw P( Shoulders must be properly spaced to get the proper leverage).

P:Just as F does the turn P's right hand pushes the body to pull left hand out in the nick of time.
Right foot forward right hook punch to back of F's neck.
F: duck

P: In connection with prevoius right hook, deliver left hook to front of F's face.
F: two handed catch and elbow break. And the set continues as normal

Note:
1. If you haven't done such a throw before it takes some practice to get the proper leverage.
2.I started from the groin strike for explanation purposes. It is generally not a good opening move, but after people are a little tied together and very close. The way it is presented in the form is a perfect example.

NorthernMantis

01-26-2002, 07:20 AM

Jack Squat-

Actually the "bridge hand" in hung ga is a bit different.The fingers are spread as if holding an egg while in wah lum the fingers are bent back and together.A friend of mine's who studied hung ga showed me the difference.

The chut sing ma can also be sued to step into the opponent if he/she is backing away.

Jack Squat

01-26-2002, 07:54 PM

Northern Mantis-

There is more than one style of Hung Gar (Canton, Ha Say Fu, etc.). I too studied Hung Gar and the ku sow hand formation is identical to WL's. The application/usage is the same as well (except that HG also uses the ku sow in dynamic tension strength building sequences-I didn't see that usage in WL). Again, not wanting any controversy, only stating my opinion. Any one else have any comments?

Flem-

The slap of the forearm/fa jing is not for the judges, it's for yourself (although it doesn't hurt with the judges:D)

It is a way to self-check your power usage. To really get a good, crisp smack, you must use "bursting power" (fajing). No, you don't have to smack the forearm in practical applications, but the inventors of the forms were extremely wise in developing a way to teach the proper technique (with proper blocking hand position) with a tool to provide feedback to the practicioner regarding if he or she is doing it correctly. Plum Flower PM uses the same concept when striking with the vertical blade hand (opening moves of Mei Hua Hand for one example).

As to the issue that 18 Elders thought that Master Chan was holding back, maybe yes, maybe no. Maybe Master Chan simply chooses not to emphasize certain things, which is different from purposfully holding back. Either way, before anyone is motivated to find a solution to a problem, they must first realize that a problem exists. If the current WL students ask for the apps, maybe they'll get them! I know that I wished that I had asked-
and no, I'm not a Pong Lai (so cut me some slack when you reply!)

Tianan-
Great post-thanks!

flem

01-26-2002, 08:44 PM

jack squat
i agree with what you said. i do not blieve in asking to be taught. as a teacher, i tend not to teach something if i am asked. i am sure there are reasons , as you say. it is funny that i said i was taught applications by master chan and yet no one ever asked what i was shown. i think the majority of the people here just want gossip, or a place to complain.

yu shan

01-26-2002, 10:05 PM

Jack Squat

When slapping the arm in Mantis Gong Fu, the emphasis is not so much on slapping the arm, but , it`s all about the waist movement! Everything comes from waist.

Sa Mantis

When doing 7* stance, is your hooking foot turned in 45 degrees? This is a great leg conditioning stance/drill. It both conditions the shin area and the calf muscle,for those who have been exposed to Mantis conditioning.

Joe Mantis

Here-Here! One MUST be taught how to work/do two person exercises/forms! In our school our Shrfu goes to the cutting edge, might start slow but that doesn`t last long. We do not dance at our school, I know the techs. of the Lingchun side, but when your partner is going all out, there is no time for thought.

Flem

I believe you should learn to fight by fighting, but it`s your Shrfus responsibility to teach you the Techs. in the exercises and forms to apply to battle. I take it you are a Mantis Stylist, if you are you are already ahead of the game. Again, why isn`t any one in WL teaching applications? Keep an eye on 18 old ladies I think he missed a treatment today.

18 Elders

WL pugilists are clueless to the (run around) and get behind you. They just have not been taught Two person. Don`t hold it against them, they just can`t comprehend. This because they haven`t been taught the whole system. You have to hand it to them, they are trying, just like we did, but because we asked questions/Techs. people turned their backs on us. I might not ask this fellow MA but does the WL branch in O town expect to ever get it? I mean real Mantis Applications, without guessing. Believe me there are many hidden treasures in your forms, you might think you got it but you don`t.

Joe Mantis

01-26-2002, 10:21 PM

Yu Shan:

Drop me an e mail. or send me your email address.

When are you in town again?

Joe Mantis

01-26-2002, 10:42 PM

Jack Squat

Great observation and point regarding the Red Book.
In my experience with WL when I asked a Sifu about understanding more of the system, his reply "what else is there, more forms."
ouch
A problem exists definately. I think that a lot of individuals who studied WL were deceived into thinking that they were learning more than they were.
It is no shame to say what one teaches or doesn't teach, ie: a forms school, sparring school etc.
-----------------
FLEM:

Probably a place to complain and air out the frustration of dedicating oneself to an art and not being taught how to use it.
---------------------

In the words of Hua Lin "WL is what it is and if people like it fine, if not go study something else."
I agree what first let's just be honest about what WL is or isn't.
Once that is determined then others can make an informed choice of wanting to study this style or not.
-----------------

Tainan:

THANKS FOR YOUR INSIGHTS!!!!!
I thoroughly enjoy what you share.

yu shan

01-26-2002, 10:49 PM

Joe Mantis

I`ll be in cigar city on Feb 1thru3. Hope you can be at the school that weekened. I`ll talk at ya. See ya...

NorthernMantis

01-27-2002, 08:08 AM

Originally posted by Jack Squat
[B]Northern Mantis-

There is more than one style of Hung Gar (Canton, Ha Say Fu, etc.). I too studied Hung Gar and the ku sow hand formation is identical to WL's. The application/usage is the same as well (except that HG also uses the ku sow in dynamic tension strength building sequences-I didn't see that usage in WL). Again, not wanting any controversy, only stating my opinion. Any one else have any comments?

No problem.:cool:

By the way way I have only heard of Canton and Ha Say Fu what other ones are there?

spiralstair

01-27-2002, 08:24 AM

Basically, to understand apps. in WL you just take each move 'out' of the line of the form, and turn it 45 degrees to the opponent. The forms are a 'line of communication', the apps. are best researched by not being so 'linear'. Should be easy, with or without a Sifu to show you the way. But that does mean spending a little less time blaming others and more taking responsibility for your own progress.

flem

01-27-2002, 12:08 PM

well said spiralstair!

joe mantis

i don't really get what/why you are saying that to me. as i said before, i was taught application, my time was not wasted. perhaps those who were not should investigate themselves to find out why.

yu shan

as i said above, the applications are being taught, the question is why were you left in the dark?
i think the problem revolves around presentation. and as i tried to explain earlier, how that presentation works into one's ability to use the information. getting "handed" every app to every move may on the surface lead one to believe that they have stumbled onto the motherload of kung fu, but in reality it teaches a right way and does not teach one to think, and it confines the practitioner to one belief system. if your shrfu is pong lai and i assume this is true, then how is it that your apps have any meaning in relation to WL? he himself said that WL is unrelated to PM and that WL stylists should go to southern forums?

18elders

01-27-2002, 01:50 PM

you said you learn the apps, who taught you? I have seen some crazy crap some sifu's came up with, i wouldn't call that learning the apps. If you do or did then you would understand tainan's explanation of little mantis and you would also understand one doesn't need smoke bombs to change direction on you.
You also wouldn't think you are hitting 2 people at the end of 16 hands.
When you do gim and you stab your gim fingers project the opposite way, does that mean you are poking some guy in the eyes behind you?

flem

01-27-2002, 04:26 PM

18elders

i get it now. you learn kung fu like you read- pick up a few highlights but fail to grasp the entire message.
1st
16 hands- i said that i read on several occassions that a professor law, a praying mantis master of the 60's i believe, demonstrated the application at the end of 16 hands and HE said it was applied against 3(three) opponents. i was inquiring if someone else knew of this as (I) did not understand how it was done- apparently it must be incorrect since you don't know it.

2nd
gim- why do you continually ask half-assed questions about random techniques instead of answering the question on the forms i mention( all the while accusing ME of not answering your questions). i never said anything about gim or any other weapons- but if you want to have a multiple opponent discussion concerning weapons you will lose. by the way, i do not think that your mentioned technique is {necessarally) striking 2 opponents, however, since i am not confined to your way of thinking such an application may save my life one day.

3rd
application- i became actively involved in this forum the day you said that WL did not teach applications. my response to you was that i learned apps directly from master chan.

summary

16 hands move against 3(three) opponents was a past master of kung fu's application. i have suggested that some moves in forms are designed to be applied against multiple opponents( but not necessarilly those that you come back with). finally, i learned applications directly from master chan(not for little mantis)

oh, and i missed another inaccuracy in your comprehesion of my posts - i did not say i had a problem with change of direction, what i did say was that you are not going to get behind me, that is unless i am doing your 2 person set with you or of course you have a smoke bomb

yu shan

01-27-2002, 06:16 PM

Flem

Hola mi amigo!
As for being left in the dark, my WL Shrfus did the best they could. The problem is the good stuff (tired of apps.) is not being handed down. I was and will always be respectful, but, there should be an exchange of energy.I have a feeling the American branch of WL did not incorporate or just plain did`t learn Mantis,Apps.two person etc etc etc.
As for being spoon fed the wonderful applications of Mantis Gong Fu, I still have to give hours of thought(meditation) because Praying Mantis is a very complexed system, not for dummies.
God knows I need to think!
I don`t think WL is unrelated to a "past" influence of Mantis, just that the American version has dropped the ball so to speak. Yet it is still an awesome style. But Pong Lai is kind of correct,maybe because of all of the southern influence, WLmers should check out southern folks. Remember, P. Chan spent alot time in HK.

Northern Mantis

We did"dynamic tension strength work" in WL. Mostly as a breathing/warm-up. Often wondered about this, I to have a lil Hung Gar historia. What do you think about the beginning of 18 Elbows and 5th form? Also, single finger is southen, but, still a good mix anyway.

Spiralstair

You need to be taught the Lingchun side to your forms.

18 Elders

Here Here! I`ve seen some real funky stuff for apps. in WL. We had good teachers,it`s just they had to revert to past style`s to come up with stuff. Too many grey areas.

Mi Amigos

Do you want to reach the mountain top?

yu shan

01-27-2002, 08:10 PM

18 Elders

Your cynical way of"The gem thing" attaking with a thrust while the two fingers poked an eye out was hysterically funny! Lay off the meds.
Although, we know how to get behind the adversary, Quickly! All apart of the Mantis footwork.

Flem

Apunalar! Creo que se quien tu eres, mi amigo! Todo esta bien!

flem

01-27-2002, 08:56 PM

yu shan
don't get the last post, i'll get back to you tommorrow on it. i assume since you guys are all that we'll be seeing the name pong lai at san shou events soon?

yu shan

01-27-2002, 10:19 PM

Flem

Apunalando or to stab, meaning at 18 Elders. and the rest was I think I know who you are my friend, everythings OK.

18elders

01-28-2002, 06:05 AM

saw a master in the 60's doing the end of 16 hands?
I thought P. Chan was the only wah lum master here in the 60's. Who and where is he now?
You sais you learned apps from master chan, what about little mantis, you didn't learn that, why not?
I'm not talking about a move here and there, i'm talking about everything you learn.
Obviously you didn't since you said you didn't learn little mantis.

-did you see the pong lai name in san shou at nick's tournament last year?

i guess we won't see your name since you are still hiding.

flem

01-28-2002, 09:27 AM

18elders

can we change your name to highlight pen? i said the posture in 16 hands was pictured, as in other PM styles have same or similar posture AS 16 hands- if you look above, the person's name was PROFESSOR LAW. i believe that he taught in china, not the u.s.

a move here a move there- i was taught the apps of 18elbows, 3rd, among others. please don't read into what i say, in fact you will better understand what is said by reading and understanding the entire post instead of picking out key words, taking offense, and trying to find fault in it.
as for learning apps for everything i learned, nope, that did not happen, never implied that it did. what i did say was that by seeing what i was shown, the implications of the other material took on new meaning to me.
since you have learned every application in your current style, why don't you describe the six or was it five uses of tong long deil sow? no, how about it's most lethal use? i know it, shouldn't you?
i did not see the pong lai name at that san shou event.

flem

01-28-2002, 09:49 AM

yu shan

i do not feel that i have taken any unecessary stabs, as you say at 18elders. his posts on the otherhand seem to try to find fault in what i say by ignoring the examples i use and infusing his own unrelated techniques.
let me say this again since you are new here. i am perhaps the last person who should defend WL, but the remark that compelled me to reply, and the one's that keep me here are the unfounded truth that WL does not teach apps. i don't know if you were in WL as long as 18elders, but if you were, and you weren't getting what you were after, then something is not right. perhaps the same thing will happen in ten years where you are now. i mean, during that ten or so years, did you guys think that the secret would just reveal itself, or were you waiting to be taken behind the locked door and shown the great revelation? it seems to me that if the two of you thought you taking it in the keester that before the 10 year mark you'd be sore enough to leave.

Hua Lin Laoshi

01-28-2002, 10:27 AM

It's my understanding the the single finger is a "sign" of what group you are with and nothing more unless the Pong Lai group has a app for that move. In Wah Lum it's quite often followed by a grab like 3rd exercise. The application would be to scrape off and immediately go into the grab since you've already made contact with opponents arm.

Flem
You know what's funny? Nobody taught me that behind the knee app. It just makes sense to me, basic anatomy and physiology. Everyone has a few of these ideas, some more than others. It makes me wonder why the ones not learning didn't get together and share apps or get with the ones that did learn.

Jack Squat
Alright Jack! Now maybe you can explain all that slapping in Tong Bei? :D :D :D Interesting concept, I hadn't thought about it as a feedback mechanism.

Yu Shan
"It both conditions the shin area and the calf muscle,for those who have been exposed to Mantis conditioning" And for those who have not been exposed to Mantis conditioning what does it do?
"Again, why isn`t any one in WL teaching applications?" What makes you think nobody in Wah Lum is teaching applications? Did you teach any at your WL school before you switched to Pong Lai? Why not, didn't know any? You guys are constantly making that claim yet apps continue to be taught at WL schools. Give it up already. Also, I don't need a 2-man set to know how to move around an opponent. It helps, yes, but the same moves are in the forms. Or do you have different moves in your forms and 2-man sets? If so then why? "Don`t hold it against them, they just can`t comprehend" Yeah, we're just a bunch of goobers down here. :D So much for "I`m new here, so try not to bash me right off" from the Original Mantis Forms thread.

You guys come on with the same tired old jabs at Wah Lum and then pat each other on the back saying how great the post was. It's getting old.

"because we asked questions/Techs. people turned their backs on us" That may not have been the reason. I and others have asked questions and none of us got the cold shoulder over it.

Joe Mantis
In case you haven't read my other posts, Wah Lum does not teach the Tan Tui and Jut Sow styles. Wah Lum Kung Fu is BASED on Tan Tui and Jut Sow. Anyone expecting to get the complete Tan Tui or Jut Sow systems will be disappointed. There are some pure forms but most of it is Wah Lum.

flem

01-28-2002, 11:35 AM

hua lin laoshi

you may have come up with this, but have you ever thrown a jump cut eyebrow at the end of 2 man as your partner goes for the second standing sweep- teaches your partner to watch his head! i have worked that into a two person "sticky leg" drill that includes techniques from the standing sweeps of little mantis, which as i said before, the second leg movement can be used to nullify the 1st, or regular standing sweep.
incidently, i have found that many of the motions that are "obviously" long range are excellent close up, such as the scoop that often precedes heen choy. this is in line with the online article.

Hua Lin Laoshi

01-28-2002, 01:30 PM

Tainan
Seems you learned a different Little Mantis. Following the left Mantis Hook/groin attack the right pulls back and protects the groin followed by Dung Tui and Weong Chang Tui. Then step LHS.

I haven't tried this out yet but going over it in my mind it seems a long time to be letting someone hang on to your arm. The downward block (defend groin attack) is also a little shaky, not something I would do in that situation. But I do understand the throw now. The right palm to elbow makes the throw which was missing in LM as we learn it now. I'm not so sure the leverage is right going in to LHS for the throw but like I said, I haven't tried it yet. Also, originally there was a 3rd kick in that series so we now have 3 moves (groin protect, 2nd and 3rd kicks) missing in the example that were in the form. The throw is nice but the set-up to it is awkward. The groin attack (definitely an elbow-to-toe type move) is designed to circumvent a downward block (most likely the left punching hand retreating from the hook). See, the left mantis hook to the left punch attack would move opponents left arm to his right negating a right downward block. The most likely defend in that position would be twist to the right (groin facing to side) and block with left knee or drop left elbow (pulling out of mantis hook) onto attacking hand (crunch the fingertips). Follow with your own spear hand to groin (hence the groin defend after the groin attack). Are you putting the hook foot on the inside or outside of the lead leg?

Flem
My point was that with some common sense you can find good applications and the more you understand the more you find. I don't understand how anyone can learn these forms (especially over a 10 year period) and not have any apps. I might not have all the apps for a particular move but I have enough to understand the forms. I just see things different. I learned the forms and the superficial apps to the moves. Now I go to the next level and pull out the more advanced apps. 10 years from now I'll probably be going deeper into the forms and finding the subtle apps to the moves.

Ok, I guess I'm real dense now. You lost me on the jump cut-eyebrow at the end of 2-man. I don't remember that move or the 2nd standing sweep.

Joe Mantis

01-28-2002, 03:15 PM

Flem,

I'd be very interested in what applications you were taught by Chan Pui. Especially to the higher level material. Were they simplistic applications like in 16 hands: scoop opponents leg then uppercut to groin? I hope not. I'd be interested to compare and contrast.
Thanks

Hua Lin:
I already read your other posts and understood that WL teaches a mix of PM and Tam Tui. But I appreciate the refresher.
(Not sure to what you are referring)

yu shan

01-28-2002, 06:29 PM

Flem

I did`t mean it as unecessary stabs at 18 elders, never even crossed my mind, it was a joking way of kind of saying tushe. Chill man.
I am looking forward and down right excited about my future.
OUCH a mundo, the keester! Why the insult?

Hua Lin

Asking questions turning back;There is alot more to it,guilty by association with a certain Good Shrfu, nose in the air attitudes, politics, and coming from a stong school , which seemed to intimidate the Temple jocks.
As for shin/calf conditioning, 18 Elders has given you an invitation to come over?
18 Elders told me your a good guy, I must have pushed the wrong buttons, Sorry !
Train hard Hua Lin

18elders

01-28-2002, 07:38 PM

i also have a different end to little mantis , we had another hook neer the end that was taken out.
We always did the 3rd kick even after they took that out.
I also do the a section of the beginning different, it was another moved that was changed but doesn't make sense to me the changed way.

18elders

01-28-2002, 07:41 PM

see ya this weekend

flem

01-28-2002, 09:39 PM

hua lin laoshi

in 2man if you are the original attacker, at the end of the last true run your opponent throws the backfist, you x block, he throws a heen choy you kick, etc.. after your toe/ cut eyebrow kick and punch he sweeps for your right foot, the second sweep is merely a step or slide but i have always cosidered it a sweep attempt- in any case,you jump and turn to face and meet hands. it is as you make the turn that i have applied the jump cut eyebrow
with me, i learned three different ends to little mantis. of the three it is the first that i like best, it involved coiling the right arm in past the waist after that last punch was thrown, much like it is done at the end of the first run of 2nd form when you pull up to golden chicken- except in LM you go to doo ling ma. it sounds like 18elders had same or similar. i just reread your post, i was saying that i threw in the jump cut eyebrow as a two person drill. it was not already there

yu shan

i didn't intend an insult, just a colorful example. i'll just say you guys seem happy to eat fish but do not care about learning to catch your own. and that it should make you guys wonder about your demeanor if i choose to take the side of WL as opposed to yours.

joe mantis

don't understand uppercut to groin. as for sharing ideas i am all for it. but as far as apps are concerned it seems as though hua lin laoshi and i are the only ones giving while everyone else takes. so without trying to sound insulting, you go 1st

Tainan Mantis

01-28-2002, 11:38 PM

Hua Lin Laoshr,
Of the several versions of this form I have seen this part seems to be common to all.

To read of the movement in a technique on a computer makes it look slow and awkward while in practice it is quick.
My only regret is that we don't yet have the technology for me to put a video file up.

Joe Mantis

01-29-2002, 09:37 AM

FLEM

Shoot, I answered you on the other thread. Darn it.
Anyway.
I'm talking about 16 hands - scoop chow choy, bean choy movement.
Check the other thread. though.
thanks.

Hua Lin Laoshi

01-29-2002, 12:06 PM

Yu Shan
That's kind of where I was going with my post about you guys having a common denominator (AD). Leroy manages alright though. I think he makes an effort to stay close. 18 Elders and I get along fine, we understand each other. I believe I'm welcome there.

18 Elders
Thanks for the good word. I also kept the 3rd kick for a long time but since I have to teach without it I've given it up. Personally I like it there. I don't recall another hook at the end so I guess that was before I got there.

Flem
I get it on the 2-man. I forgot there are actually 2 sweeps since they're so close. I'll have to try that out. What do you think of the Little Mantis throw?

Tainan Mantis
It's rough trying to get the feel while visualizing. I like the concept but I don't really feel comfortable applying it in that situation. It still feels awkward and I can't imagine hanging onto the arm that long.

Joe Mantis

01-29-2002, 12:17 PM

Flem / Hua Lin

Did you learn any drills to work the applications?
I've discovered that knowing what a move in a form is one thing, and then doing it in a drill is another. i think that this is the next step to applying what one learns. Or the next step in the apps.

Appreciate the feedback

flem

01-29-2002, 12:43 PM

hua lin laoshi

i understand the throw but it's too complicated for me. personally, i never enter with the idea of throwing in mind, knowing the energy and leverage principles, and being able to throw or keep from being thrown is my priority, incidently, i try to avoid the lay horse as much as possible.

joe mantis
i'm not sure what you mean by drills i guess. i assume 2 person work, in whick case i try to use everything, especially those techniques that are throughout the style. the best way to do it without someone "feeding " you is to get a partner, and for training this a regular partner is best as you can both go home and contemplate the "perfect" response to their move. start with a jab, or whatever, they counter, you counter, throw in every "what if" you have, always keeping in mind what your "natural" response is. you may notice, as i did, that almost every move has a variety of differences throughout the system. for example, in 16 hands the transition or forearm block between chow choy and bean choy cuts across the sternum, however, the counter could be a low uppercut, in which case the forearm is draw down and across, like at the beginning of the last pass in straight form.

Hua Lin Laoshi

01-30-2002, 08:23 AM

Joe Mantis
We learn some drills but in my opinion not enough. It seems like different Sifu's know different drills depending on when they learned. 18 Elders has more insight into what the other Sifu's know and share since he was a Sifu in Wah Lum. From the little bit I've seen I think there should be more sharing of drills and techniques but maybe I'm wrong. I think quite a few think forms are all the drills you need.

Flem
I like the movement of the throw (actually I prefer to turn and snap the arm instead of throw) but I don't feel comfortable with it in the context of Littlee Mantis. It doesn't seem to fit there well. It could be that it's new (new techniques quite often feel funny until you get used to them) and I'm just not doing it right yet. Like I said before the block for the groin attack is real awkward and not something that fits there. And the groin attack, when done properly, gets around the block.

Joe Mantis

01-30-2002, 08:34 AM

Flem:

My concept of Drills are the working of techniques with a partner. Where each person alternate using the same techniques. eg. i go, partner goes etc. Normally stationary. I guess like Wing Chun chi sao, but limited to only 3 or so techniques. Of course working leg techniques there would be more movement. Not free sparring though.

flem

01-30-2002, 10:13 AM

joe mantis

i don't understand the confusion on the part of those who need it all handed to them. if you have a fairly intelligent partner there are so many possibilities, as opposed to being confined to what you are shown. i don't know what you know, but an example is a strike that i was doing in 18 elbows, master chan told me that it was a scrape, now i am not the one to question "the man", obviously he knows much that i do not, however, i like the tech as a strkie, and had already used it effectively in sparring, so now i have two uses for it.
like i said before, come up with the apps, but really explore them from every perspective, like what are you leaving open for a counter, are you able to generate power using it, and most importantly, how does it work in a live situation-sparring(well, nearly live.

hua lin laoshi

to tell you the truth, i like the LM tech against a kick instead of a hand tech, this affords no opportunity of defense for your opponent, but that's just me.

Hua Lin Laoshi

01-31-2002, 09:08 AM

There's a middle road between having everything handed to you and having to figure it all out yourself. I believe that's the best road to take. In the beginning you need lots of examples. Once you understand how things works you should be able to see at least the basic apps yourself. Now, you can either be satisfied with the basic apps or you can dig for alternative uses of each move and explore variations. This is when guidance helps but the student needs room to explore and think for himself. Sometimes they need to be forced (by NOT giving the answers) to explore and try variations to see what works and what doesn't as well as why they do or do not work. Innovation comes from those who learn how to explore.

flem

01-31-2002, 10:09 AM

hua linlaoshi

EXACTLY!

Tainan Mantis

02-01-2002, 05:13 AM

Have you ever learned the first throw in judo, the one where the opponent flies over your head?
When we learn the throw it seems that no matter how slow we go in, step, adjust the feet, grab the collar and sleeve, place the buttocks etc. Every little detail is wrong. Of a 2 hour class it is not unlikely that you'll spend one hour doing one throw for a month. After a month you will have no ability of being able to do the throw half way decent on a willing opponent, to say nothing of an unwilling opponent.

Besides warm-ups you spend the rest of the time being slammed to the ground by someone senior to you. 100 slams a class isn't unusual.

In fact, by the time you can finally get all the details correct you have to do every stage of the throw in slo-mo for fear of misplacing some part of your body.

Fast forward to several years later and the throw is so fast that when it happens to you you never saw it coming. Slam! And you are on your back.

PM is full of throws. Some people say ever third move is a throw.
Others say that the hand techniques are so you can do the throw.

But, if the school doesn't have mats to let the student practice those unique PM throws in every class then it is unlikely that you will be good at throws by doing forms or by sparring on hard floors wearing shoes.

Although you may be able to take a few slams on concrete I have never heard of anyone who does power slams on concrete or wood floors for practice.

18elders

02-01-2002, 06:24 AM

I see what you are thinking but if you don't learn the apps and the drills and spend your time training them you are wasting out on many years of training while you are trying to dream up the stuff.

-Flem or hua lin,
How often do you drill guo lo tzai?
Do you have drills for you sweeps(continuous 2 person), dung pu,
do you train many takedowns from a punch, kick, throws, etc.
Are you shown the proper way so it is techn. and your not trying to use strength. Then the counters to the throws.
How many fa jing drills do you do?
A boxers trainer doesn't just say go in the ring and fight, they drill him on the techniques

You can come up with stuff but if your sifu doesn't know his apps then he won't be able to tell you if what you thought up leaves you open for many other counters.

if you learned LOG and then drills for the form and then the applications and drilled the heck out of them, you wouldn't be wondering what the applications are for many years later.
Sure it's great to think of stuff yourself but wouldn't you like to know what the real intended applications is?

Learn a form and then uderstand what every move is for and be able to do drills for it and apply it.

There is a difference in knowing a technique and executing it properly. If your sifu doesn't show you how it is really supposed to be executed then you will never know.

To comment on Tainans post
does your sifu tell you or show you the throws in your forms?
Just because they show you an app doesn't mean your spoonfed and if it does i would rather be fed instead of starve.

flem

02-01-2002, 09:32 AM

18elders

i don't care who shows me what, i am still going to ponder the material, afterall these "intended" moves were created by a man-just a man. you gave your response to the LOG app, did you learn that from your teacher? i think it all boils down to the person. pong lai stated that his teacher took the 7 kicks form and created a 2 man out of it, i think that is great. i also think that i can do the same thing.
getting back to LOG. if that tech that you suggested is the intended move, and even if it is not, we'll pretend it is. your way is to "drill the heck out of it". my way is to find every flaw in it that i can, narrow down the counters to the one's that work best and leave the least counterable moves, then drill the heck out of it. th

2 hand defense- in response to northern mantis you stated that one doesn't need to use two hands to defend a kick. yet in your style you defend the round house kick using both. are you saying that you "drill the heck out of it" but then don't use what you train? i'll end here since i don't know where you are in your meds cycle, any more and you'll undoubtedly miss points!

NorthernMantis

02-01-2002, 08:04 PM

yu shan-

Hola yu shan, como le va?Veo que tenemos mas que un hispano en estad communidad.Si me permites preguntar de cual pais viene su raizes?

lol anyways

Northern Mantis

We did"dynamic tension strength work" in WL. Mostly as a breathing/warm-up. Often wondered about this, I to have a lil Hung Gar historia. What do you think about the beginning of 18 Elbows and 5th form? Also, single finger is southen, but, still a good mix anyway.

I havent made it that far yet.I'll let you know when I get up to that point.

About my friend he told me that his hung gar had some form and move that some other families ofhung ga didn't.I'm refferring to the butterfly palm and arrow fist.I'd like to keep his name a secret since I don't want to reveal any info about him without his permission.

5th form is unkown to me as I have never seen it and 18 elbows I barely saw.Pretty cool stuff though.

flem-

Please excuse my ignorance were you talking to me?

flem

02-01-2002, 09:10 PM

northern mantis

i was referring to your double gwa choy app against a kick. 18elders said you shouldn't use two hands to defend one, i am saying his style does.

Joe Mantis

02-01-2002, 09:15 PM

what are the applications to 3rd and 4th exercises?

Also does anyone have any drills that they learned to perfect the applications to WL? It's frustrating to learn movement and
1. no know what the h#@l I'm doing and
2. not have a way to work that technique with another person.

18elders

02-02-2002, 12:09 PM

i guess you didn't read my post carefully.
I stated to look at your body position, it was not needed to use two hands to block the tech.(kick) he was thinking about. He is also using both hands in the same position, as you stated he is open for a head shot. I didn't say never use 2 hands to block a kick, just for what he was thinking about.

If you look at the block we do for the roundhouse one hand protects the upper gate and one protects the lower gate.

YOu look at the flaws, if you don't really know your apps what makes you think you can know what the flaw is??

flem's quote;

2 hand defense- in response to northern mantis you stated that one doesn't need to use two hands to defend a kick. yet in your style you defend the round house kick using both. are you saying that you "drill the heck out of it" but then don't use what you train? i'll end here since i don't know where you are in your meds cycle, any more and you'll undoubtedly miss points!

i think you forgot your medication, you missed the point!

SaMantis

02-02-2002, 07:31 PM

Joe Mantis,

what are the applications to 3rd and 4th exercises?

There's an article in the E-zine that talks specifically about 3rd exercise (dropping horse) and some of its applications, check that out.

4th exercise (pow choy) is a drill, at least one type; you're blocking a kick, controlling the leg (as you roll out of the block) and striking pow choy.

As far as drilling technique and practicing on another person, we do that in class. I don't know what drills would work for you, but read the e-zine article and try creating your own drill based on the applications described.

:)

Sam

yu shan

02-03-2002, 04:18 PM

Northern Mantis

Hola mi amigo! Gracias, usted muestra mucho respeto. Yo soy de Florida mis desendiente son de Espana y mi esposa es de Carolina, Puerto Rico. Estoy tratando de practicar mi espanol. Esta usted en Wah Lum?
Buena suerte, trabaja fuerte!

SaMantis

There is a nifty defense using 4th exer. against a wrist grab, thanks to Leroy. Never liked the usage against a kick.

Joe Mantis

3rd exer. is loaded with stuff, let`s go over it.

SaMantis

02-03-2002, 05:24 PM

A wrist grab in 4th ex. makes sense -- you would block higher in that case? (in the drill it's all low stances, low block).

You study with sifu Leroy? I met him last year when he came down for a week, he's a great teacher.

Thanks for the info!

yu shan

02-03-2002, 08:58 PM

SaMantis

Wrist grab n 4th exer-It is not a block higher so to speak. Try it in a comfortable position,right hand forward,shoot left hand underneath(when grabbed) do the roll, hook out with left hand, pow chow w/right! There is other stuff.
I know you train low, which is admirable, but it`s not how low you can get, it`s application,then you go from there etc...Leroy is my brother.

flem

02-04-2002, 11:19 PM

18elders

you are right in that i overlooked the body position statement, however your move is still a flaw in my opinion. i am sure it is effective in training but i find almost always best to move into the opponent when a circular tech is thrown, also, if the kick is redirected your foreward leg will suffer. oh, and your back is open if your opponent has a smoke bomb.

yu shan

sounds great, but why go to so much trouble against a wrist grab? i'd like to refer you again to that famous previous post that said one could find apps in diaper changing if they look enough!

yu shan

02-05-2002, 05:39 AM

Flem

4th exer. against a grab sounds like alot going on, but it`s easy and fast. To me, using against a kick takes too much time and effort, I liked the diaper changing quote.

18elders

02-05-2002, 06:13 AM

I think you need more sleep or something.
This is your quote saying my move is a flaw because you say to move into the opponent with circular tech.
If you read my post again(below your quote) i said move forward with each backfist, isn't that what you are saying?

flem quote:
-you are right in that i overlooked the body position statement, however your move is still a flaw in my opinion. i am sure it is effective in training but i find almost always best to move into the opponent when a circular tech is thrown,

my post:
-Use it as an attack, moving forward with each backfist , kind of like fan cha.
The arms are long, moving fast with rolling shoulder movement and of course the waist fa jing.

flem

02-05-2002, 08:40 AM

18elders

my bad. i was referring to your double armed defense of the roundhouse, not the backfists. by the way, do any of your forms combine the two? the "wedge" block and the backfist? though i still would prefer not to defend first but rather move inside, it seems like a natural combo.
when i was talking about flaws, i was referring to the "wedge" (sorry don't have a better word) defensive posture. but i was not saying your style is flawed. what i am saying is that there are flaws in the movement, as with any movement. by practicing that posture you are ingraining a natural response to the back roundhouse, what i am saying is in my training i like to find the move's inherent weakness, this is only possible by going outside the style so to speak, so that an opponent that doesn't know the "right" way to work with or against the move doesn't catch me of guard.