Importance of Wing Chun lineage

[fgxpanzerz]

People have asked me what lineage I come from. Who cares? Why does it matter? All everyone needs to know iz that there is good Wing chun and sh*tty wing Chun. I dont care about Leung Ting, William Cheung, Yip Man, Yip Chun lineage.

[Wingman]

I don't know my WC lineage either. I know my teacher's teacher; but beyond that, I don't know. IMO, not knowing your lineage is not as important as knowing whether your WC works or not.

It may be good knowing your lineage. But does it make your WC any better?

[Frank Exchange]

With the multitude of WC instructors out there, there are those, unfortunately, who are fakers and frauds.

Whilst lineage is no guarantee of quality, it can help a beginner to choose between those who have legitimate training and those who dont.

There are many instructors out there for whom lineage is unimportant, as they feel, with some justification, that their skills and ability speak for themselves.

But there are just as many who ignore lineage because they fear investigations into their qualifications to teach.

[dezhen2001]

There are also those who say they are students of well-known grandmasters to bolster their claim to be teaching the 'real' wing chun! Searching on the internet shows you a good example of this. For example: how many students of grandmaster Yip Chun are there meant to be? And how many of them speak fluent Cantonese as he speaks no English!

I think having a lineage is important, but only so far as how it can hep your training. If you have a question, and your Sifu can't answer it, who can he turn to? His Sifu right. But if he has broken away, then who? No one - so there is no answer (unless he can figure out on his own). Then the system already has a flaw......how many other things will happen if you have no background/greater experience to fall back on?

just my thoughts,

david

[wingchunner]

I believe having a good lineage is very important. I used to think that it didn't matter. But, in order to get the details that will refine your martial art that will take you to higher levels, a good lineage is an absolute must. Also, to begin to work on the fine points earlier on prevent bad habits from occuring. It is not always easy to rid oneself of bad habits. Also, being around an instructor from a good lineage helps imprint in your mind what excellence is.

Obviously, a good lineage is not a gaurentee of high level skill. But, without it, I believe it is (near) impossible. Why waste time and money and figure all out when you're very old, when you can spend time with someone who can help take you there sooner?

Marty

[whippinghand]

good marketing = good lineage

[old jong]

Lineage is like a chain and a chain always break at it's weakest link! Most of the times there is a weak link anyway. Your Sifu should be the strongest link for you. If your Sigung is or was the greatest master there is or was is not that important.It is your Sifu who's teaching you. Can he teach or is he only a badass?;)

[CanadianBadAss]

"lineage doesn't matter" is a thing some one says to make them feel better about there ****y lineage, thats y u dont see anyone with a good one saying stuff like that.

And by "good" lineage i mean TST.

[whippinghand]

What makes TST's lineage good?

[CanadianBadAss]

Yip maN -> TST-> sifu lit -> Me

Because I'm in it

[Wei Sui]

(Not in a negative way) I too am also interested to hear what makes TST's lineage (or any other lineage) good...but going over what one thinks are bad/good about each lineage could turn ugly...


IMO, Old jong is right, lineage doesn't matter as much as the sifu you have.

[mun hung]

Is lineage important? IMO - yes and no.

Yes -

IMO, I think it's important to know what you are learning, who it came from and how it got passed along. If you are happy with the source interpretation of the art, then it is probably a good idea to get as close to it as possible.

No -

IMO, I think there are some pretty bad representations of just about every lineage which can also be poor from the start. Sorry!

Also, lineage is a very good marketing tool even for people who have studied for only a week and a day. I could tell you that "Yes, I've studied in Harvard", but may have been a very poor student or a dropout, or even worse - the janitor.

In the end?

Find something that you're convinced works.

And then find someone who can teach you how and why it works.

The rest is up to you and your common sense to figure out. And from my experience - better sooner than later, cause later usually consists of a long period of kicking your own ass!:)

[whippinghand]

Originally posted by CanadianBadAss
Yip maN -> TST-> sifu lit -> Me

Because I'm in it
What does your sifu think about that?

[whippinghand]

Lineage like tree
Can have more than three............people
If one branch break
Tree, still leaves to make.

[S.Teebas]

What does your sifu think about that?

What do you think about that?

[Miles Teg]

If its dodgy leave it.

I think when there is smoke there is fire. There are some big names that have so much negativity around them you cant help but suspect some of it is true.

I think a lineage is crap if:
1. the starter of it claims to be Yip Mans favourite student.
2. the originator of it claims they were the only ones who learnt the true W.C
3. the originator claims that they are Yip Mans successor and thus the 'Grand Master' of the system.
4. if they have millions of vidoes and books on the shelves.

This is one sure fire way to know if your lineage is crap.

Yip Man apparently only taught 4 people the complete system, that means everyone else must be filling in the gaps from what they have seen.

[old jong]

I did not realise I could be your "Muse"!....
Are you hiding something from us whip...EH ?:rolleyes:
Oh!...BTW,is that your poetry I see there ? (http://www.vingtsun.com.hk/forum/treplies.asp?message=1387&all=True)

[Ish]

Yip Man apparently only taught 4 people the complete system, that means everyone else must be filling in the gaps from what they have seen.

Who are these four people surposed to be.
Even if that is true what would stop other people learning the complete system from these 4 then teaching it to others.

[Miles Teg]

Yeah of course they would have taught others. Im talking about all the people who have come straight from Yip Man. In an interview with Wong Shun Leung, he said that Yip Man told him he had only taught the knives to only 4 people. He said he knew who they were but didnt want to say for fear of embarrassing others that teach it. This isnt the first time I had heard about that.

One can only speculate who they would be but some names that come up repeatedly are Leung Seung, Wong Sheung Leung, Chu Shong Tin, Lok Yu, Moy Yat. These peoples W.C history can not be disputed. Leung Sheung was Yips first student, Chu shong Tin lived with Yip Man for a while, Wong Shun Leung was the longest training student and taught Yip Mans classes, and I dont know much about Lok yu and Moy Yat.

One interesting thing that these people have in common is how they have never claimed to be the successor of yip man or inheritor of the system. And it also seems there hasnt been any internal conflict from there own students from most of them.
And they are definitely not the ones who have made the most noise in the W.C community.

[Ish]

who did ip ching and ip chun learn the complete system from

[hunt1]

Who learned the knives from Yip Man is a subject not worth getting into because it can never be proven. From all accounts Yip Bo Ching was the first and Miles did not even mention him.There has been outside confirmation that Yip Ching did.The same for Yip Chun.By outside I mean a Yip Man student other than the person claiming to have been taught.Lok Yiu and Leung Sheung were each given an option to learn 1 weapon.This was after they objected to Yip Bo Ching being taught before they were.


It is also clear that just as the Dummy form Yip man taught changed over time so did the sword form and perhaps to an extent the pole form as well.If those who claimed to have been taught everything direct from Yip Man are to be believed

[whippinghand]

Originally posted by S.Teebas
What do you think about that?
I think that CanadianBadAss should check with his sifu first, before posting his name up beside his sifu's, and suggesting things about his lineage, based on his presence in it, given that he's only trained there for a short time.

[whippinghand]

Old Jong,
Though it is not mine, it is quite well put.

[CanadianBadAss]

i was joking WH...

[old jong]

So, You say it is not your's but you agree with it?...Is that right?

[CanadianBadAss]

My sifu would know i was joking too, cause he knows how ****ty my WC is...

[whippinghand]

Old Jong, does it matter that much to you?

[old jong]

You said something regarding my Wing Chun! I just want to know if you really means what you said.
Do you really think Augustine Fong's Mook Yan Jong is fake Wing Chun?
Is that your opinion?

[whippinghand]

I stated that it is well put.

[old jong]

So ,you favor the style of that post even if you don't agree with it's implications?...:rolleyes:Well!...

[whippinghand]

I didn't state that I disagree either.

[fgxpanzerz]

I heard that Ip Chun didnt know anything about Wing Chun until a few years ago he started learning to cash in on his father's death. I also heard that Yip Man refused to teach, either Ip Chun or Ip Ching or both, Wing Chun because of superstition and because one of them was banished from the family. All you have to do is look at Ip Chun's ****ty books to see the quality of his "Wing Chun." A lot of the movements are wrong and he doesnt show anything advanced, only stupid begginner movements.

Everyone also remember that Yip Man wasnt/isnt the only source of Wing Chun. His style is only ONE of the many wing chun lineages out there(I hope I worded that right with correct tenses). His wasn't the best or the worst. I dont even know what the best and worst are that exist now. Yip Man Wing chun happens to be the most popular known gung fu style or system today. I said style or system because some dumb a$$e$ like to say, "Wing Chun's not a style, it's a system." Or vice-versa.

[old jong]

You Agree!...So you agree to the comment that Augustine Fong's Wing Chun is fake!...Allright.

[whippinghand]

I didn't state that either.

[Sihing73]

Hello,

While everyone is entitled to their own opinions we have members of various lineages on this forum. Some may take offense to some of the most recent posts. I will ask this one time for everyone to refrain from posting negative comments about specific individuals or lineages. While we may discuss the differing methods it is really inappropriate to say what someone else does or does not know or imply they are deceiving their students. Unless you were present when the teaching of these individuals took place your really can not say for certain what they did or did not learn. As long as thier students are able to bring something away and use the art as it suits them then they are teaching a valid method.

Besides, since some of those being mentioned are senior to those posting it is in poor taste to speak in such a negative manner. It is very easy to post anything and say anything in this medium but in person things sometimes change. Let's not allow this to become a p****** contest but rather get back to the edification of the art.

Peace,

Dave

[Tom Kagan]

Far be it from me to tread on your artistic licence. But if you want to use the analogy of lineage and trees, then you may reconsider comparing it to the branches and find better success comparing it to the root system.

Mother nature, in her infinite wisdom, has developed only two types of root systems to support a tree: The single taproot or a lack thereof.

Depending on the species and, to some extent, the soil conditions where a tree grows, a tree will sprout a single large taproot very deep into the soil. This is the root which supports the tree and prevents it from toppling over. If a tree does not send out a taproot, it must rely on its network of hundreds, if not thousands, of coarse roots (for water) and feeder roots (for nutrients) to pull double duty and also give resistance to the other forces of nature attempting to topple a tree.

Which one is better? Both and neither. Mother nature adapts to the conditions at hand - believe it or not, that's Ving Tsun at it's purest. The tallest (though not the strongest) trees, the sequoias, do not typically grow a taproot. But, even these trees will begin to sprout one if nurtured in soil conditions which are favorable to taproot development.

Neither rooting system will stop a chainsaw, though. For that, mother nature uses an altogether different adaptation mechanism: friends or a lack thereof (extinction).

Lineage is what supports you in your effort - whether you have one strong one or, alternatively, many, many smaller ones (more is always better in this case - healthy ones, anyway). Either way, you still have to play your part and learn how to draw strength from it - hence the Hao Kuit of each ancestor plus an important Hao Kuit often overlooked: "If you don't train hard now when you are very young, when you get older you will have nothing."

... Hmm ... to head off a silly tangent, "very young" means your training age, not your physical age.

[whippinghand]

Thanks Tom. Very informative. I'll have to use that one - taproot.

[fgxpanzerz]

I love it when people say this. Usually, whenever people brag or whatever by using Yip Man's name, I laugh. Yip Man had THOUSANDS of students. Some might have been good, but not all! I guarantee he had many bad students who are using his name today as advertisement.

[yuanfen]

Hi Miles Teg:
Its best not to speculate too much about who were the key people who finished learning the knives directly from Yip Man.
It will be divisive. When folks do enough wing chun they can make their own judgements. Marketing versus knowledge is
often a common chasm in wing chun. Folks tend to forget how
Yip Man taught... group classes usually taught bya senior student
versus teaching a few for big tuition in private. You had to be consistently an accepted tuition paying student to get the advanced work.
Years of consistent learning produces a different level of knowledge from attending a few of the open classes and then claiming "I was a student of ....." for the rest of the time. Also
as is repeated often in every class in any subject anywhere- ...there are A students, B students, C students---
you get the picture. Thanks for your post. BTW,IMO Tsui Shong Tin is a knowledgeable sifu indeed.

[Miles Teg]

Yes your right.
:)

Good call

[fgxpanzerz]

Everyone has the same friggin picture of Yip Man and his drunk smile. Pictures cant be proof. So what is considered proof?

[Frank Exchange]

To get back to the subject, I believe that one reason that lineage is deemed to be more important now than ever is due to the decline of the challenge fight.

Back in the old days, if a new kf school opened in a town, it was common for representatives of the established schools in the vicinity to pay a visit to the new school. This visit might be pushing hands a la taichi, or a full contact challenge fight, but whatever form it took, it was intended to sort the pretenders from the real thing. If the instructor of the new school was unable to put up a good show, they would not be permitted to teach, and the school would have to close.

In Western eyes, in modern times, this would be seen as disrespectful. Yet why? We are trusting our money and our loyalty to an individual who may or may not be worthy of that trust. I sometimes wonder whether a few open challenges in the right areas might close down a lot of the McDojos we find today...

As there is no Trading Standards, or Office of Fair Trading of WC, we are left with lineage as the only indicator (and indication is all it is, until training is started) of a teachers ability.

[yuanfen]

On lineage with apologies to Rudyard Kipling's The Ballad of East and West:

Oh East is east and West is West and never the twain shall meet
Though they wu sao night and day each at their own god's feet

But there is no east or west nor border, lineage or birth
When two good wing chunners come face to face
Though they come from the ends of the earth!

[mun hung]

yuanfen - very nice!

fgxpanzerz - a picture can't be proof. Skill and knowledge is proof. Travel and try their hands for yourself. The key is knowing what to look for. In the last month, I've spent time with two other students of Yip Man besides my own instructor, one was a guest in my house. IMHO - they have their own lessons to teach and without a doubt know their Wing Chun, and were very impressive.

Does lineage mean anything? Only to one who knows what he's looking for.

[yuanfen]

Thanks Mun Hung- who were the visitors?
Nosey -when it comes to wing chun!

[mun hung]

I was fortunate enough to visit my SiBak Duncan Leung and workout at his school in Virginia Beach last month. That's always a treat!

I also had the honor of spending the the last couple of days with my SiBak Hawkins Cheung as he came to visit my SiFu Allan Lee. A really nice guy and a true gentleman.

[fgxpanzerz]

I have this theory that if any sifu who is worth anything could have only gotten that way by, KILLING OTHER PEOPLE. Sure, u can say whoever is a nice guy, but do u really know the person?

[Dave Farmer]

Lineage has a function to some degree.

Me personally, I like to know mine to give me a PERSONAL tree to trace in much the way of a family.

Though the old 'My lineage is better than yours' argument is futile and needless.

Just look at all the available paths before you decide which is right for you.

regards

Dave F

[mun hung]

"I have this theory that if any sifu is worth anything could have only gotten that way by, KILLING OTHER PEOPLE. Sure u can say whoever is a nice guy, but do u really know the person?"

I think you've been watching too many kung fu movies! :D

Has your sifu killed anyone?

As far as knowing your lineage - it's like knowing who your father is. Some people care. Some people don't.

[fgxpanzerz]

They love to talk about what they know but I hardly ever see them practicing gung fu.

[wingchunalex]

lineage is used by people to hid behind, so they don't have to prove themselves. If your good, your sparring and to a much lesser extent, your chi sau is good. i know of teachers who get their teaching certificates by taking seminars with yip chun. 6 to 10 seminars and you are a "sifu", no dedicated training, no putting your time in. now, supposedly yip man lineage is good, and you get someone who is a "seminar sifu", just because the lineage is good, doesn't make the teacher or studdent good. its like the wing chun styleists today who say they don't have to sparr other styles cause they have the same lineage of the so called gong sau fighters like "the famed and master" william chueng. frankly, you can take someone and teach them 4 wing chun blocks, a straight puch, a thrust kick, bi jong, basic foot work, and turn out a lot better fighter with some hard work than someone who knows all the forms and applications and how things are "supposed to work" and rely on lineage to get out of doing the hard work that is required in learning to use wing chun. if a teacher knows wing chun, and knows how to apply it under presser, then it will show in the students. if you get a "lineage sifu" it will show in the students ablilty to sparr and use wing chun under pressure.

[yuanfen]

wingchunalex-sez
lineage is for cowards
------------------------------------------------------Some
(erroneous) over-generalization!
good lineage can be a helpful but not sufficient condition for learning an art well.
The problem is that some lineage links are entirely made up of
occasional seminar attendance. The devil is always in the details....
what you got from that lineage connection plus what you made of it yourself.

[mun hung]

wingchunalex - I agree with yuanfen. Don't assume that all who speak of "lineage" are cowards who don't train hard and hide behind some name.

Tim - do you plan on coming out to Queens again? Too bad I did'nt get a chance to train with you. There's a student in our school who says he knows you from Stoney. Maybe you two can meet up for some training.

Did you see any of the videos from the fellowship? You're on some of them. I found it rather interesting.

[fgxpanzerz]

I'll be out in Queenz eventually. Chinese new year is coming up and I have to lion dance at a lot of showz for my school. I cant do anything till after the new year iz over. Marcus sent me an email about the guy from Stony Brook and I gave him my email. But the guy hasn't emailed me back yet. Where are the videos from the fellowship? on a website?

[fgxpanzerz]

I understand some of yor points but I have to say that it iz a little harsh. I dont know if my posted topics offend anyone, I hope not. I dont really take seriously anything that I post. I hope no one else does either. Actually, some of it is serious, but most is just cause I have nothing better to do while I'm online most of the time. koodos

[stuartm]

I think Dave Farmer makes a good point lineage is not the be all and end all, but it is very important. You should look around for a while and you will find what suits you most.

Dont be blinkered either - look for the teacher who can teach well and explain things clearly, and is willing to share their knowledge openly. Dont go for a teacher purely because he looks like he can beat seven bells out of someone!

Be mature in your decision - if you decide to leave one lineage for another it is not beacause one is better than the other, it is because you are more suited to that particular style.

Keep a level head and enjoy your WC.

Best wishes, Stuart

[whippinghand]

Originally posted by fgxpanzerz
People have asked me what lineage I come from. Who cares? Why does it matter? All everyone needs to know iz that there is good Wing chun and sh*tty wing Chun.


Originally posted by stuartm
if you decide to leave one lineage for another it is not beacause one is better than the other, it is because you are more suited to that particular style.

How does the first quote jive with the second?

[Juan Alvarez]

IMO, sh*tiness in Wing Chun comes from sh*ty instructors, not from lineages...

[yuanfen]

Juan sez:IMO, sh*tiness in Wing Chun comes from sh*ty instructors, not from lineages...
---------------------------------------------------
IMO- from shi**y or made up lineages too.

[Juan Alvarez]

Yuanfen,

again this is my opinion, but I don't believe that a lineage that as survived for long can be sh*tty, only misunderstood. On the other hand, fake lineages are easily revealed over time and more rapidly these days. Kind of like natural selection.

[whippinghand]

tell me about it...

[Enree]

Juan,

I think that while you're right in the sense that the fake ones can be weeded out more quickly/easily now (due to people flying by planes to other schools around the world and what not - instead of a month on horseback in a caravan just to travel from one end of the state/province to the other). However, "fake" WC schools are popping up all the time. While TKD schools are the most popular in the US, WC schools seem to be making a comeback in terms of interest and numbers. And there will be those who want to get in on it and take his/her basic skills, modify it, and call it the definitive one.

That's what irritates me most. :mad: I believe that everyone who has roots in Wing Chun (ya gotta know basics like the concepts of centerline, taun sao, biu jee, etc.) can call themselves Wing Chun-ists. They have that basic right. However, no one has the right to call themselves the "only", "true", and "definitive" Wing Chun style. ... ahh... I feel better now :)

To expand on the "misunderstood" portion of your comment, I'd like to say that each Si______ while trying to stay true to their lineage and roots, will in one way or another change it. I'm not saying they're major changes... look at current students in your own school (if you take any MA in a class setting). While you're all learning from the same teacher, everybody's body mechanics for a certain technique will be different. And I belive it's the same for instructors. It's just that the longer it's been over time for a particular type of WC, the more differences there will be as time passes... hence it'll be misunderstood by different students of the same root/lineage. Uh... I hope some of this makes sense!?!? :)

That's my 2 cents.
Take care everyone,
Enree.