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View Full Version : taiji as an internal part of your system.



11-01-2000, 01:15 PM
why do people that study other systems like wing lam learn taiji, doesnt hung gar have internal as well as his shaolin art, and iron palm?

is taiji the best chi kung out there.

peace /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

David
11-01-2000, 06:30 PM
I see my taiji class as a slow-motion version of my kung fu class and it's this aspect which permits me to see deeper into the mechanics that I like.

Unfortunately, I've had to quit taiji class to go train kung fu an extra night instead, but I'll still train the taiji I've been shown so far at home.

I've said elsewhere on this forum that I think southern mantis is equal to taiji. Not many of either style believe the other style is in the same league as their own!

At advanced levels, I've heard southern mantis practitioners with wildy different opinions - one says taiji will ruin the mantis and the other that it will allow greater appreciation of it. I respect both of these people but I can't see what I'm doing being anything but beneficial.

The powers of Kung Fu never fail!
-- Hong Kong Phooey

MoQ
11-01-2000, 07:09 PM
To Hung Ga types, the Iron Wire is as "internal" as it gets. Some local "experts" have even questioned the validity of moving meditation in general...

Tai Chi people barely allow anyone else to use the term...

Is a system "internal" only by way of chi gung? Can anyone transform their practice to "internal" by adding a little Tai Chi?

11-01-2000, 10:53 PM
i think that every kung fu style, be it internal or external has chi cultivation. i dont know much about the hung gar style but at some stage it has to develop cultivate chi. either externally or internally.

peace

Longquan
11-02-2000, 12:29 AM
I am not very familiar with SPM... so I cannot comment on its power generation and I am not an expert in neijia, but here it goes...

Neijia are not internal because of qigong but because of neijin. Neijin is the expression of ground strength via a(n) articulate dantien(s).

If you change the means of power generation, you change the art. So, mixing neijia and waijia usually creates a conflicting situation.

As far as tai chi being the "best qigong," there are probably more health-focused or more combat-oriented qigong systems (specialized).

longquan88@hotmail.com

<HTML>"To the Buddhist, "To be or not to be" is not the question. The question is whether or not you can transcend these notions."
Thich Nhat Hanh
</HTML>

meltdawn
11-02-2000, 04:45 AM
Two clarifications: practice or application?

I don't add my taiji into my lung ying or chang chuan during practice of those styles. I feel it offers me enough internal martial and health aspects on it's own. However, I do benefit from the contrasts it presents to my other styles, and the mechanics of one taiji movement can lend great insights into another of an external style simply because it reminds your body to relax and not meet force with force.

In application, I believe all fights are stylistically unpredictable outside of the classroom. If you survive by saying "I know taiji", it is only because that move was well-rehearsed and your mind needn't think to bring it out.

As far as what's better for your system, meaning outside internal influence (that's a doozy!), an attentive student may eventually learn all internal as well as external aspects of his or her chosen style. Kung fu is about balance.

PS: I've seen plenty of "tai chi" people who have no idea what internal means. Vice/versa.

Meltdawn

11-02-2000, 05:11 AM
this is what im trying to say, someone that practises external kung fu are still gaining internal aspects even if the movements are not soft such as taiji, or should they practise taiji to get a balance.

peace

David
11-02-2000, 01:44 PM
I found taiji teaches about parts of the body I never had access to before. Tiny muscles are being conditioned where before I'd just use major groups. If you think about your body you could probably name or point to a relatively small number of muscles. Yet you've got hundreds all begging for something to do.
I'm not sure if a non-taiji/qigong training method can awaken that kind of self-awareness and development.

The powers of Kung Fu never fail!
-- Hong Kong Phooey

meltdawn
11-02-2000, 07:49 PM
David, I understand what you mean.

As devil's advocate, I believe there are both internal and external aspects of every style.

In the recent Dragon's List newsletter, Gin Foon Mark talked about "traditional" training, versus "modern" training. Two comments expressed were how so many styles appear so different now, but the old masters would fight and you could hardly tell them apart. Also, during that time period, TV and alehouses weren't major social considerations, so one had the time and inclination to devote a vast amount of time and energy into a style.

But times and countries are different now. I have a mortgage and can't train the way I'd like. So I end up agreeing that my taiji is a way to develop more internal awareness until I am able to devote more time to the style I'd REALLY like to explore.

But taiji's not all internal. Sometimes I really work it and sweat! As must any martial art be balanced, a taiji practitioner must also be able to execute a form at speed.

Meltdawn

11-04-2000, 11:25 AM
ive heard of fast forms in taiji. are they taiji moves or do they resemble other arts?

peace

meltdawn
11-04-2000, 03:41 PM
Same moves, only done at full speed, as they would be in combat.

Check out Tai Chi Master (Jet Li), Revenge of the Tai Chi Master, Tai Chi 2(Yuen Woo Ping), and New Legend of Shao Lin (Jet Li).

"What style is THAT?!?" "Is that Tai Chi???" "Oh no! He's doing Tai Chi!"

I think the impression that taiji should only be practiced slowly stems from the Yang lineage history. It was developed as a less trenuous form af taiji that the nobles could practice. Sort of like how classical fencing evolved. Since it's health benefits proved to be enormous, greater amounts of people started practicing it for that reason.

So if you get up and do your taiji at the crack of sunrise every day like a good girl -- er, person -- you too can live to be 200 years old.

Meltdawn

11-04-2000, 10:30 PM
these are only movies man, taiji is not the only internal slow martial art. every REAL MARTIAL ART has internal training or slow moving meditations.

in order to have a balance of yin and yang, still i have seen those movies and they are great! /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

meltdawn
11-05-2000, 03:27 AM
For a moment I thought you were going to be a civil human being. Where did you read ANY challenge in that post?!?

Wanna name some other internal arts? Again, You give half-answers. Sigh, why do I even try...

Meltdawn

11-05-2000, 03:41 AM
well this kfo is getting to me, i ask questions about thing i know and dont know, i like to talk about many subject kung fu related to see other peoples views. i get ****ed at some when they have ago back.
i like reading you post MOST of the times.

take it easy

peace
/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

David
11-05-2000, 12:51 PM
In my kung fu, there are slow forms and fast forms and forms which start slow and become fast as ability .
You can't get the flavour of a standard (faster) kung fu form if I do it too slow.

Taiji is different because I can vary the speed from zero to 100 at will depending on what I want. I've sweated in taiji nearly as much as kung fu and after some lessons my legs have been aching for days like after my first kung fu lessons.

The powers of Kung Fu never fail!
-- Hong Kong Phooey

Valraven
11-05-2000, 07:31 PM
They don't call it the Supreme Ultimate for nothing!
If you understand taiji principles you can do any
kung fu form slow and "taiji-like" for chi development.
Ch'ang Style Taiji Chuan is a perfect example of combining internal/external furies.
Valraven-

[This message was edited by Valraven on 11-06-00 at 11:36 AM.]

Braden
11-06-2000, 10:56 AM
Slowness has nothing to do with internal training.

Check out Longquan's post above.

thunder fist
11-06-2000, 01:55 PM
fierce tiger,
every southern system builds internal strenght, sometime in ther training. even pak mei kung fu.

meltdawn
11-06-2000, 02:55 PM
Thunderfist, pleeeeeeease don't get fierce started on pak mei!!!!!!

Meltdawn

David
11-06-2000, 07:27 PM
Braden,

Slowness is useful in itself. The internal training of slow taiji is easier to examine realtime than the faster internals of kung fu.

The powers of Kung Fu never fail!
-- Hong Kong Phooey

Longquan
11-06-2000, 07:57 PM
If you do not understand my previous post, you are practicing tai chi with slowed-down waijia mechanics--"shaolin taichi."

I use the terms neijia and waijia because they have very specific meanings. The common statement, "all arts start differently and end the same" is bs. If you practice neijia (xingyi, bagua, taichi,etc.) you are developing neijin. If you practice waijia, you are developing the jin specific to those arts. Hard and soft is not synonymous with internal/external (ie. Xingyi is neither slow or soft).

Are some arts both? Maybe. Piguazhang and bajiquan come to mind. Possibly Bai He (white crane sp?).

Bottom Line: Practicing neijia in an "external" manner is not going to develop neijin. The "Internal" arts are for power development, not qigong. Practice your style's qigong--don't practice *******ized taichi.

<HTML>"To the
Buddhist, "To be or not
to be" is not the
question. The question
is whether or not you
can transcend these
notions."

Thich Nhat Hanh
</HTML>

Braden
11-06-2000, 10:35 PM
David - Taiji IS kungfu. Taiji is not necessarily slow. Non-taiji kungfu is not necessarily fast.

Slowness is a training tool used by all sorts of systems, typically to allow the practitioner to focus on getting a number of postural and movement details right; ones that they wouldn't be able to get while doing quickly.

Check out Longquan's post just above this one, it explains it perfectly.

phantom
11-08-2000, 07:07 PM
Longquan, quite a few sifus have told me that you really need to master an external art before you can learn an internal one, because the external art will help prepare your body for the internal. What do you have to say about this? Somebody also once told me that if you know both internal and external arts, you should practice the internal arts first, early in the morning. If you practice external first and then internal, it will be a strain on your heart. Is this true? Also, I have read that some chi kungs are detrimental to one another. So, which chi kungs should not be done in the same day?

Longquan
11-08-2000, 10:07 PM
<HTML>
phantom wrote: "quite a few sifus have told me that you really need to master an external art before you can learn an internal one, because the external art will help prepare your body for the internal. What do you have to say about this?"

The sifu who made the above statement undoubtedly practiced an external art first and foremost--a proponent of slow-moving shaolin taichi.

Proper training in an internal art is as strenuous in neijia art as waijia. Neijia have their own forms of "basic training" to develop the requisite strength (ie. standing postures).
Very little of the strength developed in the practice of waijia will apply to neijia. If you are interested in the neijia arts, practice them. If you are interested in waijia, practice them. Please read my above posts again. If you master external power (jin) and decide to develop neijin, it will take you as long as a beginner in the neijia.

"Somebody also once told me that if you know both internal and external arts, you should practice the internal arts first, early in the morning. If you practice external first and then internal, it will be a strain on your heart. Is this true?"

Practicing anything too much is detrimental. Getting right out of bed and going through a hundred lines of xingyi is probably not good for you. Again, another external MA statement.

"Also, I have read that some chi kungs are detrimental to one another. So, which chi kungs should not be done in the same day?"

I will leave this one for someone else to answer. I hold really different opinions on martial qigong...

longquan88@hotmail.com

"To the Buddhist, "To be or not to be" is not the question. The question is whether or not you can transcend these notions."

Thich Nhat Hanh
</HTML>

[This message was edited by Longquan on 11-09-00 at 02:14 PM.]

Braden
11-08-2000, 11:16 PM
Longquan - I'd love to hear your opinions on martial qigong. If you would like to email me, please feel free to send a message to little_spotted_dog@hotmail.com

Best wishes.

Longquan
11-13-2000, 05:22 PM
Braden ckeck your hotmail.

"To the Buddhist, "To
be or not to be" is not
the question. The
question is whether or
not you can transcend
these notions."

Thich Nhat Hanh